Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Manish_P
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Manish_P » 06 May 2018 12:05

Singha wrote:i have a magazine of the IAF 50th anniversary around 1982 and it has a glowing and long article on the jaguar.

the cover itself had 4 jags in 2 + 2 formation ripping a convoy with cluster bombs in a tibetish terrain - great artwork

should I photograph those pages and host it somewhere ?


Singha, i recollected seeing an image some time ago in a post

Here is the image from the BRF galleries... is it the one you are referring to ?

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 06 May 2018 12:08

yes - the rear of pic has the trailing pair of jaguars.
in an era where the best of the rest were the Mig23MF , Maruts and Hunters, the Jags were a huge leap. I think it was capable of night strikes and automated waypoint navigation which no other iaf strike plane at that time could ?

we got the Mig27 and M2K a bit later and then Mig29 when M2K proved too costly/political play by russia.

the M2K was again a big leap over the jag in that it features the thales atlis LDP, AS30L strike missile, some form of french LGB in small numbers and the Matra 530 which outranged the AIM9 & AIM7 missiles of the Paki F-solahs, plus it was much faster and multirole, with a good A2A radar being a interceptor also. it could climb to 40,000 feet in short minutes and take up CAP position.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 06 May 2018 12:19

a big miss was not producing 100 M2K under license as was the original intent and falling for the Mig29 right before the USSR imploded.

these would have been produced 1990-2000 and be due for a MLU now, which would keep them @ work until 2040 with one more MLU. would have resolved the aging problems of the Mig21 and Mig27 fleet and retired them sooner

far more versatile and powerful than the 21 and 27

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 06 May 2018 18:51

This is why I keep harping on extras of types in service once they're been acquired provided costs and escalation costs are reasonable and agreed upon in the first contract. The best way to maintain numbers.Even the US has adopted this method- extra F-18s for the USN has been adopted due to F-35 delays.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 06 May 2018 19:40

too late to do that for Mig29, Jags, 21 27 and M2K now.

but we can lay in some 50-80 SU30 fitted from the start with whatever is planned for the MLU + structural mods for brahmos + later version of the AL31 engine for enhanced reliability and uptime.

avionics and weapons can keep on changing

very less is known about concrete plans for radar, engine, avionics, weapons on the SU30 next 20 years barring the inevitable astra1 and astra2.

russia is yet to field a aesa radar on any fighter. the su35 has the irbis-E pesa which no doubt is better than bars but this when massa is on 3rd generation of fighter aesa is a bit disappointing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irbis-E

take a look here, even chota mota kuttas like F16 are running around showing off aesa radars and the sole credible russian entry will enter squadron service 5 years from now in the Su57

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_el ... nned_array

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 06 May 2018 20:05

are these two products completely domestic and ready to use or in development ?

BEL Bharat Electronics Limited
RAWL-03 - Multi Function Active phased array Air Surveillance Radar.[36]
Naval Missile Defense Radar (NMDR) - S-Band Multi Function Active phased array Radar.[3

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2018 23:44

Austin wrote:Yes please , I recollect reading the first time jags and F-16A went at red flag ex the jags swept the floor in ground attack mission

Austin, Haridasji is right about the NAVWASS system of Jaguars. There are many authoritative accounts on their inadequacies and the need for DARIN. You can start here.
Quarter Century of the Jaguar in India by Gp. Capt. Kapil Bhargava.

The Avionics Imbroglio
A major attraction of Jaguar had been its avionics suite, though similar equipment was available in the other two contenders as well. RAF's Jaguars were fitted with the NAVWASS (NAVigation Attack Weapon Aiming Sub-System) from Marconi-Elliot Avionics Systems Ltd, with a Head-Up display from Smiths. RAF had let India know that the Marconi equipment had very low reliability to the extent that during operations no aircraft could be expected on the flight line after just six (or so) sorties each. In 1975 Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) in Bangalore had tested the full NAVWASS on an HF-24 and rejected it. But the NAVWASS was standard equipment on the loaned Jaguars and there was no quick way to replace it on the DS aircraft. The RAF wanted to upgrade the Inertial Navigation System (INS) with the Ferranti FIN 1024 INS and share development costs with IAF. But the IAF was offered its export version FIN 1024E. The catch was in the E, which meant that the gyros used in the system were inferior to those for the RAF. This led India to consider an upgrade on its own as early as possible.

The DARIN Story

The original name suggested for the project for upgrading the navigation attack system of Jaguars was INDRA, after the king of the minor Hindu gods. But this was uncomfortably close to the name of the PM Mrs Indira Gandhi. The CAS Air Chief Marshal Dilbagh Singh altered it to DARIN which stands for Display Attack Ranging Inertial Navigation. To manage the project, Inertial Nav-Attack System Integration Organisation (IIO) was specially set up at Bangalore under the aegis of Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO).

With IIO as the project office, Sagem (France) was designated Prime Integrator and HAL the prime agency for work on the aircraft. Specifications for various equipment and interface documents were drawn up at IIO. The task of selecting the equipment to be integrated as a Nav-Attack system was completed quickly by IIO in consultation with ASTE which already had the experience of flight trials on Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) and Head Up Displays (HUD). The major subsystems selected were Sagem Inertial Platform, Smiths Industries HUD/WAC, Ferranti Combined Map & Electronics Display (COMED), Crouzet Air Data Package and SFIM Flight Test Instrumentation Package - all to be integrated using dual Mil 1553B standard Digital Databus. The Sagem ULISS 82 box handled primary Navigation and weapon aiming functions, with Smiths HUD/WAC computer taking over if the ULISS failed. Target range was provided by Jaguar's original equipment, the Ferranti Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker. Ranges derived from radio and barometric altimeters were used in the secondary and tertiary modes.

British Aerospace was the official "Design Authority" for Jaguar and was therefore involved throughout with the project. For the modifications in India, BAe vetted draft specifications, installation drawings, ground and flight test schedules, electro-magnetic compatibility and test results, etc. Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) were first cleared by vendors and then moved to a static integration rig at Pontoise by Sagem. After about a year the integration rig and models of LRUs were transferred to IIO at Bangalore. This rig played an active part in integrating flight-worthy models and troubleshooting during subsequent phases.

Direct Supply aircraft JS-102 & 103 were ferried & delivered to IIO in 1981 for modification and trials. Items to be rendered redundant by the upgrade were removed by HAL. The new Smiths HUD gave trouble in installation due to its volume. Its high-tension unit was shifted to the avionics bay. COMED display installation also posed problems of access for removal and replacement. Avionics bay cooling was redesigned to ensure adequacy for additional equipment to be installed later, such as ECM, radar etc.

On successful completion of all the modifications, the first flight took place at Bangalore on 17 Dec 1982. ASTE's test pilots flew the aircraft for all phases. Navigation accuracy of the modified system was better than one nautical mile per hour called for in the specs. Weapon aiming accuracy trials were carried out at Indian Space Research Organisation's Sri Harikota Air Range (SHAR) near Chennai. Photogrammetry was used to validate software solutions. The associated computer programmes were transported successfully. Film recording of pilot's HUD display along with Radio Release Tone (RRT) provided the correlation with aircraft position determined by theodolites. Finally, live weapons were dropped at the desert range in Rajasthan. Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was accorded in 1984 and Full Operational Clearance (FOC) a year later. The system now caters for manual or automatic release of a range of weapons. The pilot has the freedom of a wide release envelope from steep dives to toss bombing within a large speed margin. The reliability of the DARIN proved to be ten times better than the old system and was well received by the IAF. IIO also modified six Jaguars with Thomson CSF Agave radar and DARIN system for maritime patrolling. These were enabled to use the Sea Eagle missiles

Second Avionics Upgrade: DARIN II

To extend the operational life of Jaguars by perhaps another two decades, further improvement of avionics suite is now in progress under project DARIN II. This involves a Sagem Ring-Laser-Gyro INS with integrated Global Positioning System (GPS). The combination is yielding a position accuracy within 100 metres, which does not degrade with flight time. Twin mission computers developed by DRDO's Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) are installed, providing much better redundancy than in the original DARIN refit.

An Israeli HUD from Elbit replaces the Smiths' one and an indigenous Rear Warning Radar the original Marconi's. The COMED has been abandoned, its task now being done by Smart Multi-function Displays (SMDs). An imported chaff dispenser has been added. On the ten maritime Jaguars the Agave radar is to be replaced by one from Israeli Elta Systems Group. Currently DARIN II upgrade is in progress on the 17 two seat Jaguars being produced by HAL. At least eight of these have already been delivered to IAF. In time DARIN II will first replace the NAVWASS on all direct supply strike Jaguars during their overhaul at HAL. An autopilot is currently under development in the country. Later DARIN II upgrade including the autopilot may be implemented on all remaining aircraft in service.

In hindsight, I also feel that India should have let Jaguar kill the HF-24, even if the former had to be bought till HF-24s engine replacement arrived.

The HF-24: First Competitor of Jaguar

Meanwhile, India had the ambition to meet the DPSA requirement indigenously. The first prototype of the Hf-24 designed by Kurt W Tank (of Focke Wolf 190 fame) and his fifteen-man German team made its first flight in July 1961. But the aircraft did not have suitable engines. It was designed around the Orpheus-12 without India having tied up a contract for it with Bristol Siddeley.

Bristol Siddeley, knowing its strong position, tried to extract the full development cost of the Orpheus-12 from India. It was rumoured that similar demands, without distributing costs between possible customers, were made to Italy and Sweden. In the event, the engine was not acquired by anyone and its development ceased. This was a major blow to Indian ambitions of developing the HF-24 to its expected potential. The HF-24 entered IAF service in 1965 still underpowered by two Orpheus-703 engines.

However, its safety record was the best of all fighter aircraft in IAF service till then. On at least three occasions the HF-24 was flown back to base after losing one engine. The first was in the 1971 War over Pak territory during ground attack when one engine broke up after ingesting debris from the attack site. A kite hawk hit the innards of the left engine of another HF-24. The engine shattered and a three feet by three feet square gap opened up on its side. The aircraft was then over Udaipur. It flew back to its base in Jodhpur 157 nautical miles away on the other engine and landed safely. (That is crazy. Aircrafts with similar problems have been recovered, but 157 nautical miles away is very rare!) Incidents like this convinced the IAF that a two-engine aircraft would be ideal for the DPSA role.

A search for alternative engines for the Marut began. With the help of Rolls Royce and Dowty, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment modified the Orpheus 701 for reheat. These engines were being produced in India for the Gnat. The HF-24 Mk1A with two reheat capable engines was flown and soon an aircraft designated HF-24 Mk1R began its trials. It was intended to match the Jaguar in most respects. Unfortunately, the rear fuselage had simply been enlarged to accommodate the larger diameter engines. This raised its after-body drag to very high levels. A similar airframe of HF-24 was loaned and later presented to Egypt for installation of the E-300 engine under development for HA-300 light fighter designed by Willy Messerschmitt. The misconception in India was that the E-300 could be used to power the HF-24 and the aircraft used by both countries. Since the Egyptians had no interest in the HF-24, no real collaboration was possible and India pulled out of the project. This spelt the death-knell of the HA-300 and of India using the E-300 for the HF-24.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 07 May 2018 12:59

What happened to the HF-73? That was also a good concept.A pity no prototypes were made.I also don't know why the IAF did not request Sov. help for our twin-engined DPSA when we got the MIG-21 licence prod. from them.At that time,with relations so good,we could've asked almost anything from them.A twin-engines HF-73 powered by a Sov. engine would've been an excellent partner for the MIG-21 which was then basically an interceptor.If the Sovs. could offer us after the '71 war Backfire bombers (!),which strangely ACM PC Lal turned down,obtaining an engine/assistance for the HF would've been a not too difficult task,especially as there was no similar twin-engined fighter-bomber that met our needs from the MIG and Su stables.In addition ,the Sovs. would've been happier to help and gain a foothold in an Indian project than India go in for a Western DPSA which we did,the Jag. Had such an aircraft arrived by 1980,we would arguably still be operating variants of the same today,since we still operate the 21-Bison.

Some notes.
https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/t ... redux.429/

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 14 May 2018 00:02

IMD to add 30 Doppler radars in country

Jammu and Kashmir will get four Doppler radars.
Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh three each.
14 radars in the north east region.

There are currently 27 Doppler radars in the country.


This should definitely help our air warriors in tricky terrain.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 16 May 2018 17:02

Indian Air Force, Guardian Of The Skies


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 16 May 2018 19:52

The later F mag says that an order for 324 LCAs is probably going to happen, with variants, MK-2 to fill the SE requirement instead of the F-16/Gripen.It suggests that along with more Rafales this will fit the IAF's requirements.LCAs fine but Rafale at what cost when cheaper BMos MKIs are available?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 16 May 2018 20:08

Because, Rafale is available now, with AESA radar and integrated EW suite plus Meteor, all capabilities which will take the MKI till 2019 to achieve and beyond. The AESA radar will only come after several years. The Meteor equivalent does not even exist in Russia.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 16 May 2018 21:17

Can anyone identify this loadout?
From https://youtu.be/Y1pj8yqrKlI?t=92
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 16 May 2018 21:21

This? May not be Indian
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Zynda » 16 May 2018 22:27

shiv wrote:Can anyone identify this loadout?
From https://youtu.be/Y1pj8yqrKlI?t=92

Will take a shot...the fuselage mounted missiles are R-27 (AA-10...not sure about the variant). The inboard most wing mounted missiles seems to be Kh-29 Air-Surface Missile.
Image

Again the missile next to Kh-29 seems to be R-27. The outboard wing tip missile is R-73...the missile inboard to R-73 seems to be a short ranged IR AAM...either R-73 or R-60.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby andy B » 16 May 2018 22:29

shiv wrote:Can anyone identify this loadout?
From https://youtu.be/Y1pj8yqrKlI?t=92
Image


Doc saar I will give it a shot most of the AAMs seem to be r73s and aa10s with the center fuselage engine pylons sporting possibly a combo it IR aa10 on port and semi active or active (did IAF ever go active radar alamos?) aa10s. The ASMs seem to be kh29 or as14s that come with laser, TV and iir guidance options.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 17 May 2018 01:54

And the BMos does not exist on the Rafale! Plus the MKI is much cheaper being built at home not fully imported like the Rafale,guaranteeing far better support, spares, etc. instead of being ripped off by Dassault which has cost escalation clauses as well.

Our MKIs have already bested every Western fighter it exercised with barring the F-22 and F-35.Armed with such a variety of Ru, Israeli and Astra- which will soon have its ER version available, It does not need Meteor to defeat anything that China or Pak can throw against it.

But I would prefer HAL to build any extra MKI variants instead of CKD kits being supplied other than they are already available off the shelf...which I seriously doubt.
The time factor of acquiring these extras , built at home or imported, would be a factor to be considered in the end.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2018 04:08

Philip wrote:And the BMos does not exist on the Rafale!


So? It has SCALP.

Plus the MKI is much cheaper being built at home not fully imported like the Rafale,guaranteeing far better support, spares, etc. instead of being ripped off by Dassault which has cost escaation clauses as well.


IAF is looking for performance differential and your best buddies the Russians were busy gypping us with 50% serviceability till a couple of years back.

Our MKIs have already bested every Western fighter it exercised with barring the F-22 and F-35.Armed with such a variety of Ru, Israeli and Astra- which will soon have its ER version available, It does not need Meteor to defeat anything that China or Pak can throw against it.


Philip, The MKI does not have a Meteor equivalent and Astra Mk2 is in development. PRC has a long range SD-10 version in development and IAF clearly feels a long range AAM is an advantage.

BTW, your Russian buddies couldn't even provide a decent EW pod.

The Rafale has better integrated sensors and protection, a lower RCS, and better comms + the Meteor which outranges anything on the Su-30.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Mort Walker » 17 May 2018 05:13

JTull wrote:IMD to add 30 Doppler radars in country

Jammu and Kashmir will get four Doppler radars.
Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh three each.
14 radars in the north east region.

There are currently 27 Doppler radars in the country.


This should definitely help our air warriors in tricky terrain.


It will benefit in determining wind and rain/snow fall. It will really help in advance warning of flash flooding during the monsoon season. They are designed to eliminate large point targets such as aircraft, so of little use to IAF pilots.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 17 May 2018 18:29

Mort Walker wrote:
JTull wrote:IMD to add 30 Doppler radars in country



This should definitely help our air warriors in tricky terrain.


It will benefit in determining wind and rain/snow fall. It will really help in advance warning of flash flooding during the monsoon season. They are designed to eliminate large point targets such as aircraft, so of little use to IAF pilots.


I know what a doppler radar is used for!

IMD has 30 radars in whole country. Adding 14 just in NE will provide an amazing level of granularity.

There are numerous accounts of our heli/trasnport pilots in NE doing an incredible job while facing fickle weather conditions. I haven't ready many accounts of fighter pilots but I'm sure they've faced equally difficult challenges. Better weather tracking will be appreciated by those who need to fly the missions everyday.

UDAN program also needs these to better equip civilian pilots with more information.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 20 May 2018 04:48

BMos is a desi product not Scalp.Please examine the cost of a Rafale + Meteor when compared with an MKI.Massively more expensive than any MKI combo.For a cash ztrapped govt., with the rupee falling by the day to its lowest levels yet, fat chance that the GOI will beggar the defence budget with more Rafales unless the R co. pulls the strings.Moreover, Russia also has v.long range AAMs under development like the KH-77M which has twice the range of Meteor.3 MKIs would be worth far more in any air battle than just one Rafale.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2018 07:04

Philip wrote:BMos is a desi product not Scalp.Please examine the cost of a Rafale + Meteor when compared with an MKI.Massively more expensive than any MKI combo.For a cash ztrapped govt., with the rupee falling by the day to its lowest levels yet, fat chance that the GOI will beggar the defence budget with more Rafales unless the R co. pulls the strings.Moreover, Russia also has v.long range AAMs under development like the KH-77M which has twice the range of Meteor.3 MKIs would be worth far more in any air battle than just one Rafale.


Russia has so many things in development, but unfortunately, they aren't in service. Your vaporware KH-77M or whatever is not in service either. Brahmos is a multiton missile and not really ideal for air launch. A Scalp can achieve a lot of what Brahmos can too, and its on service on Rafale. Right now, the Rafale is more sophisticated than your favorite Su-35, which only goes to show, France has managed to field far more sophisticated equipment than Russia.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 20 May 2018 08:11

Even if you are correct, which is debatable, examine the huge cost difference between the two.We are desperately short of cash, rupee plunging, which is my main point.All Rafale items from the aircraft to weaponry will be bought outright unlike the MKI now over 70% desi.That's my main point as it keeps jobs going at home and a far lesser amount of forex flowing out.We have an aircraft that in many respects superior to the Rafale at around a third of the price.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2018 08:16

Philip wrote:Even if you are correct, which is debatable, examine the huge cost difference between the two.We are desperately short of cash, rupee plunging, which is my main point.All Rafale items from the aircraft to weaponry will be bought outright unlike the MKI now over 70% desi.That's my main point.We have an aircraft that in many respects superior to the Rafale at around a third of the price.



If cost was the only criteria, then why is the IAF not flying Sopwith Camels??
I am sure they too are fighters.

Unfortunately, IAF is looking for mission effectiveness and supplier diversity.

The Su-30s, will, hopefully, by 2019, get basic capability the Rafale takes for granted today,.like a modern, light weight EW suite.

An active missile.

So on and so forth ..let alone reduced RCS, sensor fusion and advanced A2A missiles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 20 May 2018 08:37

Karan M wrote:If cost was the only criteria, then why is the IAF not flying Sopwith Camels??

OEM spares not available..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby anishns » 20 May 2018 09:51


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srin » 20 May 2018 12:40

I don't get this stealthy == invisible on radar thing. It depends upon distance at which the other bird was detected and tracked and the capabilities of the missiles.

IMO, the only question that matters is (and answer will never be public): could our Sukhois possibly engage the J20 before the J20 can possibly engage our Sukhois ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 20 May 2018 13:04

The chief has said so in the report.However, which of their prototypes were sent? We know for example that Russia has around 10+ SU-57s, 2 of which were sent to Syria for battlefield tests.Later J-20s may be less easy to detect.When the Chins are involved , take nothing for granted.

Another report says that Chin B-8 capable bombers have started using the new atoll mil. bases in the Indo- China Sea that China has seized by force.This is a v.dangerous development and again reinforces my thesis that we must acquire strat. bombers, Backfires, Blackjacks whatever.Russia is getting modernised TU- 95 Bears which the IN operated in the maritime variant, as well as Blackjacks which are re- entering production.Based in S. India and capable of operating from the ANC IAF and IN air bases W I'll be able to project our striking power in the Indo- Pacific with a vengeance.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Manish_P » 20 May 2018 19:35

srin wrote:I don't get this stealthy == invisible on radar thing. It depends upon distance at which the other bird was detected and tracked and the capabilities of the missiles.

IMO, the only question that matters is (and answer will never be public): could our Sukhois possibly engage the J20 before the J20 can possibly engage our Sukhois ?


+1

Also it's not just the Su30s, but the more powerful AWACS and ground based radars which will likely detect the J20s first.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby manjgu » 20 May 2018 21:39

KaranM..cost is a very major consideration for a country like India... why we fired only a few PGM's even when our tail was on fire in kargil... ? so please dont discount cost as a factor..mission effectiveness is fine but within budgetary constraints. When the chiefs say ' we will fight with that we have' ..u should get an idea what it means.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bart S » 20 May 2018 22:06

manjgu wrote:KaranM..cost is a very major consideration for a country like India... why we fired only a few PGM's even when our tail was on fire in kargil... ? so please dont discount cost as a factor..mission effectiveness is fine but within budgetary constraints. When the chiefs say ' we will fight with that we have' ..u should get an idea what it means.


It is not about cost but value. If we are getting something that is a dud, it's too expensive, regardless of how 'cheap' it is. If we are going to get blackmailed for spares, maintenance, uptime and delivery times, as the Russians have done to us time and again, the initial cost, no matter how attractive it seems, is too expensive.

It is why a taxi operator shells out a premium to buy a Toyota instead of the cheapest car on the market or worse still a hot rod type product. The cheap price would cost a lot more during the lifetime of the product.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bart S » 20 May 2018 22:09

Philip wrote:BMos is a desi product not Scalp.


So there are no license fees to be paid to Russia for the missile?
Have the Russians TOT'd the seeker tech for the missile to India?
Have the Russians TOT'd the engine tech to India?

Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2018 23:41

manjgu wrote:KaranM..cost is a very major consideration for a country like India... why we fired only a few PGM's even when our tail was on fire in kargil... ? so please dont discount cost as a factor..mission effectiveness is fine but within budgetary constraints. When the chiefs say ' we will fight with that we have' ..u should get an idea what it means.



Manjgu, spare me pithy soliloquies please, I clearly meant affordable mission effectiveness as versus relying on obsolete capabilities. When chiefs say we will fight with what we have, its an indictment of our flawed and slow procurement policy. Babu speak: Lets stop buying expensive 155mm arty and ask IA to deploy a 1000 130mm guns instead. BTW, I clearly meant cost is not the only deciding factor but capability is what the IAF is seeking with Rafale etc. But since you didn't understand the nuance, hope you get it this time.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2018 23:46

Well said. Exactly the point. Those handful of LGBs in Kargil had more of an effect in specific missions, than tons of bombs otherwise. The Mirage 2000 and then the MMRCA program flew out of the very lesson of Kargil when IAF saw how much value the 50 odd Mirages brought to the table versus the hundreds of obsolete MiGs. The Bofors and their value vs 130mm and 105mm guns. So much for quoting Kargil, and taking exactly the wrong lesson from it!

Bart S wrote:
manjgu wrote:KaranM..cost is a very major consideration for a country like India... why we fired only a few PGM's even when our tail was on fire in
kargil... ? so please dont discount cost as a factor..mission effectiveness is fine but within budgetary constraints. When the chiefs say ' we will fight with that we have' ..u should get an idea what it means.


It is not about cost but value. If we are getting something that is a dud, it's too expensive, regardless of how 'cheap' it is. If we are going to get blackmailed for spares, maintenance, uptime and delivery times, as the Russians have done to us time and again, the initial cost, no matter how attractive it seems, is too expensive.

It is why a taxi operator shells out a premium to buy a Toyota instead of the cheapest car on the market or worse still a hot rod type product. The cheap price would cost a lot more during the lifetime of the product.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 20 May 2018 23:55

Bart S wrote:
manjgu wrote:KaranM..cost is a very major consideration for a country like India... why we fired only a few PGM's even when our tail was on fire in kargil... ? so please dont discount cost as a factor..mission effectiveness is fine but within budgetary constraints. When the chiefs say ' we will fight with that we have' ..u should get an idea what it means.


It is not about cost but value. If we are getting something that is a dud, it's too expensive, regardless of how 'cheap' it is. If we are going to get blackmailed for spares, maintenance, uptime and delivery times, as the Russians have done to us time and again, the initial cost, no matter how attractive it seems, is too expensive.

It is why a taxi operator shells out a premium to buy a Toyota instead of the cheapest car on the market or worse still a hot rod type product. The cheap price would cost a lot more during the lifetime of the product.

So, the so 30mki is a dud compared to the Rafale? Or is the brahmos a dud?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bart S » 21 May 2018 01:17

Cain Marko wrote:
Bart S wrote:
It is not about cost but value. If we are getting something that is a dud, it's too expensive, regardless of how 'cheap' it is. If we are going to get blackmailed for spares, maintenance, uptime and delivery times, as the Russians have done to us time and again, the initial cost, no matter how attractive it seems, is too expensive.

It is why a taxi operator shells out a premium to buy a Toyota instead of the cheapest car on the market or worse still a hot rod type product. The cheap price would cost a lot more during the lifetime of the product.

So, the so 30mki is a dud compared to the Rafale? Or is the brahmos a dud?


I made a general point and did not mention SU-30, Rafale or Brahmos, each of which have pros and cons. I'm not going to argue with you about cherry picked examples, there are enough examples of where India has gotten a raw deal over the years that are obvious to anybody who is not in denial, but that would be digressing from the thread topic to discuss them all over again.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2018 01:36

Cain Marko wrote:So, the so 30mki is a dud compared to the Rafale? Or is the brahmos a dud?


The Su-30 MKI is not a dud only because India has gone the extra mile in adding capabilities no other Russian aircraft had, including state of the art avionics - MFD, DPcs, RLG-INS, modern VOR/ILS, DMG, MF LDPs and even then, the Russians did not cooperate in critical items such as the EW Pod.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02 ... 30mki.html
A DARE scientist associated with the project tells a familiar story: Russia’s unwillingness to share codes (or its insistence on an additional commercial understanding) that could have helped manage the interfacing issues between the SAP-518 pod and Indian RWR better and faster.


So, the Russians not only give a pod that is unsuitable and too heavy to use. They sabotaged India's efforts to find a replacement. First, they refused to provide assistance to integrate the EL/L-8222 SPJ with Bars and the Tarang. So India went and purchased the SAP-518. Then they refused assistance to integrate the SAP-518 with Tarang.

Then consider the "curious" case of the missing armament.
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... rt/490055/

Now, did Russia offer to rectify these defective units as it ought to have?

Then consider serviceability. As of 2015, IAF was averaging 50% serviceability for the expensive Su-30 fleet. The reasons, the usual ones.

- Russian TOT to HAL for maintenance had been delayed
- Continued over-reliance from HAL to Russian suppliers for spares - again, partly because the whole TOT to HAL from Russia was delayed
- India purchased more Su-30s than planned directly from Russia, and reduced Phase-4 Sukhois at HAL again because TOT was delayed

Finally, to overcome the above, HAL established a highly expensive spares setup in India, stockpiling expensive spares in advance, to meet urgent IAF needs.
MOD's request to have Indian firms make Russian spares in India is still "in process". Russia claims that it will now speed up spares orders from India.

AL-31 issues. Again, Russia late in the game offered serviceability patches, but overall TTL and TBO of AL-31 lags any western equivalent.

Bars. Final version of production ready version achieved in 2012. A decade after induction.

We have achieved some 70% serviceability this year, merely 1.5 decades after Su-30s first flew in Indian skies.

It will take Indian efforts to fix the EW suite and active missile armament on Su-30.

Now look at T-90, Smerch and countless other Russian deals.

All cheap on the outside, but then the fun starts later.

The Su-30, if its "great" will have everything to do with Indian determination and funding, and persistence in not giving up.

Rafale deal is ENTIRELY because the Russians frustrated IAF so much. If the Su-30 was not a pain to deal with logistically, IAF would be doubling down on it.

Another issue is Russia is simply not able to maintain the technological advantage vis a vis western peers.

The Rafale is preferred by IAF over FGFA. What does this tell us of FGFA?

IAF thinks reduced RCS, AESA equipped 4th+ gen bird is better than a so called 5Gen platform.

IMHO, only once Russia fixes the serviceability issues and then starts using the tech developed via FGFA extensively, will things change vis a vis IAF perception.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2018 01:45

I think IAF current plan - leverage 4+ Gen platforms extensively and wait for a definitive 5 Gen choice has merit. Let the PAKFA mature and let Russians prove to IAF, their new gen EW pods and radar can actually match the weight/packaging/power of western systems. The Su-30 can take that.

I am eagerly hoping IAF/MOD/DRDO have the sense to make a Su-30 sized Uttam and at least push that program even as a TD. It will be worth its weight in gold.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2018 01:49

BTW, to see Dhanoa's sir comments in right perspective. See the amount of planform discontinuity here. Consider amount of movement when actually flying and hence the RCS returns. No wonder it can be detected by a Su-30 class radar at range.

Image

Compare to the F-35.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby suryag » 21 May 2018 07:25

Lekin good makki to makki attempt


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