Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Arun.prabhu
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Arun.prabhu » 09 Feb 2019 20:01

ArjunPandit wrote:Arun sir, right now we're not in the mode is asking someone's kidneys. Those well be given if things are squeezed too hard. Right now Britain is in better shape than Russia is in. Even then Russians didn't give us engine tech or yasen class. I don't think there is any harm in talking, to see where it goes, but then I have my doubts, esp with Brits


We're also much more of a force economically than we were when we bought Brahmos. I'll grant that the two situations aren't exactly the same, but they never are. If our leadership is good, we can milk the Brits to the maximum, just as they would if we were weak.

This distrust has got to go. Or rather, we need to distrust everyone equally, with the exception of Pakistan and China, whom we have to distrust even more because they are in our backyard and they don't have our best interests at heart. But just because we distrust someone doesn't mean we can't exploit them or shouldn't work with them. This notion that the Brits won't share and we'll be at a disadvantage in a partnership implicitly indicates that we consider ourselves inferior to the English. If they won't share after we pay them, then steal what should have been shared but wasn't. If your partner refuses to deal straight we are under no obligation to deal straight ourselves nor are we honor bound to do so. We should have been stealing from the Russians after they refused to play ball with PAKFA for that matter.

In our world, friends spy on steal from friends in the Great Game.

Edit: Oh and as to Uncle Sam having a great deal of control of English materiel, the situation may be changing or may have already changed. Consider that they aren't approaching US to develop the sixth gen fighter. Consider that British Intelligence and quite probably politicians were culpable in setting up the Russian Collusion witch-hunt that is being used to hamstring Trump in the United States - the agency that produced the dossier was based out of England, and the report was compiled by an ex-MI6 spook. The professor who set up one of the low level Trump campaign aides - George papadopoulous, I think - works at Cambridge, I believe and is again connected to their intelligence and the American intelligence community. Seeing as how England has been the most hysterical of all NATO allies about the Russian bogeyman (what with attempted assassinations on English soil and all) and the offending ex-spooks are out and about and haven't been disappeared, I'd wager that the British government approves of and supports the whole witch-hunt for whatever reason (I suspect it has to do with NATO, but I could be wrong.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2019 21:30

Arun.prabhu wrote:Partnerships happen between parties that are on an equal footing. Israel needs to sell weapons to support their military industrial complex, to gain political allies against the whole damn Middle East and the anti-semites in progressive ranks of political parties around the world. Thus, their straight dealing when it comes to weapon systems. They'll sell anything to anyone. Russia, when we bought Brahmos was bankrupt from the soviet breakup and hard up for cash. We were able to keep them honest. In a manner of speaking. Tell me, how has that worked out with other Indo-Russian defence JVs?

There is no equal footing between parties. Partnerships are always to compensate what the other party lacks. In the UK's case, it is money. That is the only reason for the UK's offer to join the Tempest program.

And you are correct about Israel needing to support their MIC and Russia to get bank rolled, post the Soviet Union. But there were tangible benefits for India on both the LRSAM/Barak 8 missile and the BrahMos missile. This is zero benefit for India from joining the Tempest program. Massa will tell the UK what to do and UK (being an obedient poodle) will follow suit. And like I mentioned earlier, they will write yarns and fables in a contract, which can never be enforced by India.

We were able to keep Russia relatively honest on the BrahMos program, because the Russians did not have Maasa to bankroll them. How can we expect to keep the UK to honour their promises in a contract, when Maasa can bail them out?

Arun.prabhu wrote:The point I'm trying to make is, the English are vulnerable thanks to Brexit. They need solid trade allies because in the short run, they're going to have severe economic pains. If we want technologies from them, this is the time to enter into JVs. A few billions here or there and we can get some cutting edge technologies from them. Maybe engine tech, maybe GaN, maybe something else... But there is something to be gained. Compared to eight billions for a mere three dozen rafale, that would be a bargain.

Yes the UK does need solid trade allies. And I am sure on a number of sectors, there can be some real cooperation between India and UK. However on a sensitive program (such a sixth generation fighter), Massa will ensure that nothing of value is transferred to India. This has got nothing to do with a dislike for India, but rather just to protect Maasa tech.

And what is the guarantee that the UK decides to shut down the Tempest program and move to the US sixth generation fighter program, following the JSF model? What happens to an Indian investment then? We will get nothing and will have lost money as well. Just like the $250 million we lost in the PAK-FA program. The UK is an unreliable ally and follows geopolitical direction from Maasa.

No engine tech, no GaN tech or anything of value will come. And the result will be the same for the Franco-German program. The only difference is that the Franco-German program will actually see the light of day. The Tempest program is as real as Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings. Gandolf will come visiting New Delhi, sprinkle some magic and we may get starry eyed. But like all magic, it is only illusionary. See the next post below this one, for UK's benevolence with regards to the Indian military. The program has to exist.

The French will be unlikely to sign on to a joint venture with Maasa on a sixth generation fighter. It is for the same reason, they never jumped onto the F-35 bandwagon either. They will continue to refine the Rafale program over various tranches to suit their needs for which the budget will come out of French coffers. The Franco-German 6th generation program will be the same. The UK has the luxury of not having to invest scare resources into programs like this. That is the perk of being Maasa's poodle.

Arun.prabhu wrote:And this talk about French tech being without conditions. Yes, in a way it is, to everyone. But here's the problem. During the Falkland war, the French, who had sold anti shipping missiles to Argentina were helping the English and the Argentinians - the former with helping prevent Argentina from procuring more missiles and the latter by providing technical assistance to rectify faulty launchers that probably cost English lives.

How France helped us win Falklands war, by John Nott
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... -Nott.html

So much for France playing straight. France looks out for French interests. Damn everyone else. I'll note that so do and must everyone else.

Every nation does look out for herself. I am not denying that.

But unlike the UK, France has a vested interest in their defence programs. They will ensure that it sees the light of day, regardless of cost overruns. They see the condition of the UK and do not want to her share her fate. Assisting the UK over the Falklands conflict is one thing. Surrendering your sovereignty over to Maasa is a whole other ball game.

Part and parcel of the French looking out for themselves, they will sell to anyone (in reason) with cold hard cash. Countries like India, Qatar, Egypt can afford purchases like the Rafale because they have the money to spend. If India could buy Rafale in 2016, we could get our hands on a future French fighter as well. We just need to show the money. The French do indeed look out for their interests. And the French did not give us engine tech or GaN tech from the Rafale program either, despite the billions we spent on acquiring 36 Rafales. But nobody on this planet will give you that tech. That is their intellectual property. Why should they share it?

But take a look at the Rafale program and compare her capability to the Eurofighter. It is night and day.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2019 21:30

This is the UK's track record on helping India on defence projects. Below is the Jaguar episode. There are other episodes like this. What is the guarantee they are not going to do this with the Tempest program?

A tale of two hydraulic systems
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/histo ... aguar.html

Four specialists from BAe arrived at Ambala on the 19th of December and left on the 23rd to be back in UK for Christmas. During their stay, they made extensive notes on all their observations and spoke to the pilot and maintenance crew. They were noncommittal on the possible cause of twin hydraulic failure, an unusual problem. BAe team stated that they would study the problem after they got back to UK and then respond.

There were several insinuations from BAe: IAF aircraft were being subjected to excessive number of cycles of slat operation. Strictures were passed on IAF maintenance practices, permitting entry of air into the system, during the process of charging hydraulic fluid. The first allegation of excessive slat operation was negated after our Air Advisor in London checked with the RAF and found that their slat operation cycle was identical to that of IAF. The second allegation was negated after it was pointed out that the Jaguar had a self-bleeding hydraulic system and there was no scope for air remaining within the system.

Jam presented the detailed analysis to BAe who were very reluctant to accept the findings. After a number of meetings and presentation of accurate facts and figures, BAe did accept the shortcoming. In the meantime, BAe had also examined RAF aircraft with about 1500 flying hours and found that the brake bodies of slat motors with lower corner radius showed signs of impending failure. BAe then took action to correct the design requirements and advise AVIACA accordingly. The reluctance on the part of BAe was probably to avoid any liability or legal hassles. We had learnt our lesson at the cost of one aircraft and almost another one.

In June 94 it was found that BAe introduced these modifications as applicable to the Jaguar fleet all over the world. Interestingly the Company Notice of BAe was identical to that of HAL, word for word; expect that the letters BAe substituted letters HAL. There was a very fine print (visible only through a magnifying glass) that the modifications were based on work done by HAL.

Since the modifications were developed in India and adapted by BAe, it was decided to examine the possibility of claiming "Intellectual Property Rights" from them. Some interesting features of the Jaguar contract and licence agreement signed in 1978 by Government of India with the BAe emerged. The gist without actual legal terminology is given below: Operator (India) may introduce modifications on their own aircraft, the details of which are to be communicated to BAe. If we (BAe) have any technical observations, we will inform you within two months. In any case, the introduction of modification is at your own risk and cost. If we (BAe) find that the modification is useful and should be introduced on the entire Jaguar fleet world over, we shall do so. However, this does not attract any "Intellectual Property Rights" or commercial considerations.

The thoroughness with which BAe drew up contracts is to be admired. Hopefully our experts have learnt to be as thorough.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2019 21:39

If you ask me we should simply ignore this news about UK offering 6th Gen jet. They themselves have nothing on it. I seriously doubt they can make a 5th Gen plane on their own given their situation right now. Why bankroll the brishit..?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2019 21:51

JayS wrote:If you ask me we should simply ignore this news about UK offering 6th Gen jet. They themselves have nothing on it. I seriously doubt they can make a 5th Gen plane on their own given their situation right now. Why bankroll the brishit..?

+108!!!

They need our money to fund the development. When all is said and done, they will politely show us the door.

Stay away from this program. We are better off doing this on our own.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2019 21:58

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:If you ask me we should simply ignore this news about UK offering 6th Gen jet. They themselves have nothing on it. I seriously doubt they can make a 5th Gen plane on their own given their situation right now. Why bankroll the brishit..?

+108!!!

They need our money to fund the development. When all is said and done, they will politely show us the door.

Stay away from this program. We are better off doing this on our own.


Still better invite them for our own AMCA program. They can contribute 3.5 billion usd to the AMCA project. In return they can design and supply ejection seats and diapaers for pilots as part of their workshare.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 09 Feb 2019 21:59

It is too early for deep discussion on this even if the France & Germany too invite India, By the time our gov thinks and decides both the aircrafts would be either flying or canceled

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2019 22:10

JayS wrote:If you ask me we should simply ignore this news about UK offering 6th Gen jet. They themselves have nothing on it. I seriously doubt they can make a 5th Gen plane on their own given their situation right now. Why bankroll the brishit..?


Best part is their chutzpah. They haven't designed and manufactured a single stealth aircraft till now and they are planning for sixth gen aircraft. Mark my words. In 2045 tempest would be counted as one of the failed aerospace projects of this century.

Infact on their own the last time Britshits developed a combat aircraft was in ww2. Tornado/jaguar/eurofighter have all been developed in collaboration with either France or Germany/Italy etc. While France has developed combat aircraft like Mirage series and rafale on its own thereby preserving and growing their capability, the Britshits dont have any such capability.

And now that they are running out of wealth looted from India during colonial times in large part due to cradle to grave policies, they are looking for steal again. Only this time in the name of joint development of high tech products.

Ye saale chor hain.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2019 22:13

darshhan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:+108!!!

They need our money to fund the development. When all is said and done, they will politely show us the door.

Stay away from this program. We are better off doing this on our own.


Still better invite them for our own AMCA program. They can contribute 3.5 billion usd to the AMCA project. In return they can design and supply ejection seats and diapaers for pilots as part of their workshare.


Why would they want to take part in AMCA..? They have F35 already.

I think Europeans will blink and start working with Chinese on key Mil Tech, If US-Europe relations continue on the current path. I am already seeing some early signs in Jet engine tech. Aircraft manufacturing is already a big area.
If at all we want to collaborate it would be better be with Franco-German alliance or Japan. And it shouldnt come at expence of AMCA.

Agree on your post above. My first reaction on that useless news report was, "what 6th Gen fighter"..? Only Khan is seriously working on 6th Gen, and they have started understanding and defining what 6th Gen gonna be, not actually building one. Rest are only writing articles which are half wet dereams half sci fictions. I still see many people saying 6th Gen fighter will be unmanned completely and I am like, God when will this people see reality.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2019 22:44

JayS wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Still better invite them for our own AMCA program. They can contribute 3.5 billion usd to the AMCA project. In return they can design and supply ejection seats and diapaers for pilots as part of their workshare.


Why would they want to take part in AMCA..? They have F35 already.

I think Europeans will blink and start working with Chinese on key Mil Tech, If US-Europe relations continue on the current path. I am already seeing some early signs in Jet engine tech. Aircraft manufacturing is already a big area.
If at all we want to collaborate it would be better be with Franco-German alliance or Japan. And it shouldnt come at expence of AMCA.

Agree on your post above. My first reaction on that useless news report was, "what 6th Gen fighter"..? Only Khan is seriously working on 6th Gen, and they have started understanding and defining what 6th Gen gonna be, not actually building one. Rest are only writing articles which are half wet dereams half sci fictions. I still see many people saying 6th Gen fighter will be unmanned completely and I am like, God when will this people see reality.


Said it in jest. Should have used the right smiley.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Arun.prabhu » 09 Feb 2019 23:02

Rakesh,
I read your post regarding BAE contract. I'm not sure I find them at fault here. Sure, we got taken to the cleaners, but if a nation allows itself to be conned, is it the nation's fault or the conman's (BAE) fault? Buyer beware is established legal axiom. One should always read the fine print. I'm astounded that our folks did not read the contract that we signed and did not realize that this particular clause was present. I would hope that our weapons manufacturers, when we start exporting weapons, our attorney's write such fine and all inclusive contracts.

BTW, this is a pretty standard clause. I've worked at organizations - not defense related - that created intellectual property - software and hardware-wise - and this is a standard clause with all the job offers. Anything I create while the employment contract is active is their intellectual property. I have no right to it, including any patents, designs, modifications, etc that I create.

Now, I know it wasn't fair to HAL that BAE did this, but we entered into contract with them willingly.

As to the Sixth gen fighter, they haven't made an offer yet, have they? If they make the offer, then perhaps we can discuss it on its merits in detail. Right now, it's just your distrust of the English (which is well earned) and my equal distrust of the French that is dominating this conversation. If an offer is made, then mayhaps we can revisit this? :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 09 Feb 2019 23:05

Arun.prabhu wrote:As to the Sixth gen fighter, they haven't made an offer yet, have they?

For all you know this could be a pure lifafa article with no base whatsoever.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 09 Feb 2019 23:27

Rakesh wrote:This is the UK's track record on helping India on defence projects. Below is the Jaguar episode. There are other episodes like this. What is the guarantee they are not going to do this with the Tempest program?


No guarantee. Only good lawyers. And after that, national power. Because no amount of lawyering can overcome a power disparity.

Basically work with BAe for specific technology areas.

Don't make AMCA into Tempest-I. That would be a mistake.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 09 Feb 2019 23:34

Turkey, Japan - all independent power developers are launching own programs or tech demos. They reach out to BAe, EADS etc after getting rebuffed by the US, on account of ITAR and national policy not to give away tech. So why shouldn't we do the same?

Time to get creative. Get DRDO, ADA into a room with HAL, IAF & figure out what the gaps for the AMCA are. Ask Brits if we can leverage tech for the Tempest, by joining in specific sub-programs with the option to buy the aircraft if UK funds and develops the entire program. What's not to like?

BAe is anyday more of a weapons powerhouse than EADS et al.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2019 23:37

Arun.prabhu wrote:I read your post regarding BAE contract. I'm not sure I find them at fault here. Sure, we got taken to the cleaners, but if a nation allows itself to be conned, is it the nation's fault or the conman's (BAE) fault? Buyer beware is established legal axiom. One should always read the fine print. I'm astounded that our folks did not read the contract that we signed and did not realize that this particular clause was present. I would hope that our weapons manufacturers, when we start exporting weapons, our attorney's write such fine and all inclusive contracts.

BTW, this is a pretty standard clause. I've worked at organizations - not defense related - that created intellectual property - software and hardware-wise - and this is a standard clause with all the job offers. Anything I create while the employment contract is active is their intellectual property. I have no right to it, including any patents, designs, modifications, etc that I create.

Now, I know it wasn't fair to HAL that BAE did this, but we entered into contract with them willingly.

The point of that article was not to point out that we got hoodwinked - which we royally did - by BAe. The British are unreliable partners. They get that trait from Maasa. The apple does not fall too far from the tree. I just do not want to see India get entangled in another mess like this. I hope we have learnt that lesson. Just as you indicated, we are better off going out on our own.

Arun.prabhu wrote:As to the Sixth gen fighter, they haven't made an offer yet, have they? If they make the offer, then perhaps we can discuss it on its merits in detail. Right now, it's just your distrust of the English (which is well earned) and my equal distrust of the French that is dominating this conversation. If an offer is made, then mayhaps we can revisit this? :)

That is what I thought as well :)

Then I read the entire article on Ajai Shukla's blog.

UK to invite India to co-develop the sixth-generation Tempest fighter aircraft
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/02/ ... sixth.html

In addition to these, the UK believes other international partners, such as India, will be essential. Officials in “Team Tempest” :lol: say international partners will be chosen based on four parameters: a large military that will buy more aircraft; a large defence budget to pay development costs; industrial capability to play a useful development role; and powerful international influence to support the alliance.

Translation of the Four Parameters from Shashi Tharoor English into Simble Ingleesh:

1) A large military that will buy more aircraft - Roping in India checks that box. Heaven forbid if the British will be the only sole customer of this program. Economies of scale after all!

2) A large defence budget to pay development costs - Roping in India checks that box as well. So India foots a significant chunk of the bill. What do we get in return? Crystal blade tech? GaN foundry?

3) Industrial capability to play a useful development role - So basically screwdrivergiri onlee!

4) Powerful international influence to support the alliance - How the tables have turned on the British Empire! To the British, India was only a nation of naked fakirs, snake charmers and a malnourished populace. Look what 70+ years of independence from the British have done. After raping and looting us for over 200+ years, we are now a powerful international influence! :lol:

Darshhan put it best ---> Ye saale chor hain.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2019 23:39

Karan M wrote:Turkey, Japan - all independent power developers are launching own programs or tech demos. They reach out to BAe, EADS etc after getting rebuffed by the US, on account of ITAR and national policy not to give away tech. So why shouldn't we do the same?

Time to get creative. Get DRDO, ADA into a room with HAL, IAF & figure out what the gaps for the AMCA are. Ask Brits if we can leverage tech for the Tempest, by joining in specific sub-programs with the option to buy the aircraft if UK funds and develops the entire program. What's not to like?

BAe is anyday more of a weapons powerhouse than EADS et al.


Karan, but these days BAe is more of an American company than British. Most of their sales come from US and even the no. of employees based in US is more than in UK. So whatever restrictions will apply on Lockheed/Boein/NG will also also apply on BAe. Atleast that is what I perceive.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2019 23:52

Saurav Jha on twitter.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1094165848158220290 ---> "Any British offer on 'co-developing' the proposed 'Tempest', sixth-generation fighter must be evaluated on the basis of how much 'real cooperation' will be possible on the propulsion side of things. Mere workshare divisions will not do."

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 09 Feb 2019 23:54

Another one from Jha....

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1094233496988438528 ---> One key reason why decades of license production has yielded limited gains for India is the fact that Foreign OEMs typically 'overwhelm' Indian negotiating teams with their army of lawyers & technical personnel. India has to get its negotiating strategy right.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2019 22:08

Very true. This is a point I've repeatedly made that many of our contracts have been poorly drafted by the MOD , leaving us exposed to component failures, spares and support domestically , making it very exprnsive to operate after initial warranties have expired and delays in acquiribg critical spares and eqpt.Why the services are kept out of this vital aspect as end user beats me.All future contracts should include setting up of desi spares and support facilities with local partners either DPSU or pvt. sector, so that a smooth induction and operational future is assured.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rishi_Tri » 12 Feb 2019 08:22

This is from DRDO site..

Manufacture and Supply of FADEC Assembly Components/GTRE/MMG/DECU/1735/18/2019_DRDO_434450_1

https://eprocure.gov.in/eprocure/app?pa ... nid=455261

Would it refer to Kaveri?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 12 Feb 2019 08:41

Tell the Brits to f**k off. That toad like design is an abomination, looks wise anyway..and wasn't it some of the wise British and American men who said "what looks good, flies well"?

We're best going on with the AMCA on our own, building it to our IAF's requirements and specifications. Where necessary build some ties, get consultancy and if some technology is not possible to develop in India, then get a foreign source to supply it if possible. Do whatever is necessary, but don't fall for this "Team Tempest" crap. They'll finally build a $250 million fighter (not even including the inflation till 2035 or whenever) that no one will be able to afford in any meaningful numbers and we'll get some technology after investing billions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby souravB » 12 Feb 2019 08:57

Rishi_Tri wrote:This is from DRDO site..

Manufacture and Supply of FADEC Assembly Components/GTRE/MMG/DECU/1735/18/2019_DRDO_434450_1

https://eprocure.gov.in/eprocure/app?pa ... nid=455261

Would it refer to Kaveri?

Thanks Rishi. This is an excellent find. Since this is for GTRE, it could be for either the Aero or Marine version of Kaveri. Seems like GTRE planning to start manufacturing of Kaveri(Rate of production can only be gauged from the tender). We need to wait for some chaiwalla news for which version the production is targeted for.
Good news overall. Going forward need to peel my eyes for the tenders of other components.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 12 Feb 2019 11:28

All posts on the Chinook helicopter moved to the Indian Military Helicopter thread.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2019 23:45

I wanted to say it. But, Vijainder Thakur said it much better.
Photos showing @Dassault_OnAir Falcon Jet cockpits being assembled at DRAL facility near Nagpur are reminiscent of military inspections where everything other than the fresh paint is make believe. It is amusing how well dined and wined journalists are propagating the myth.

That shop is the perfect example of screwdrivergiri. It is very evident that NOTHING is machined there.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 01:05

Indranil wrote:I wanted to say it. But, Vijainder Thakur said it much better.
Photos showing @Dassault_OnAir Falcon Jet cockpits being assembled at DRAL facility near Nagpur are reminiscent of military inspections where everything other than the fresh paint is make believe. It is amusing how well dined and wined journalists are propagating the myth.

That shop is the perfect example of screwdrivergiri. It is very evident that NOTHING is machined there.


Parts come from other Indian suppliers, it seems.

People wanted screwdrivergiri in Pvt swanky looking companies. They are getting exactly the same.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 14 Feb 2019 01:59

It is more likely than not that these parts are just being rerouted.

JayS
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 20:01

Found this gem in CAG report page 8:
Ministry contested that there was no delay in initiating procurement action as the
proposals were initiated much in advance. It stated that IAF had started developing the
ASQRs for the indigenous development of the trainer aircraft in 2003 which were
finalized and given to HAL in 2009. HAL was given five years to develop the aircraft
by which time the existing aircraft (HPT-32) was to be phased out. The reply of the
Ministry shows that IAF took six years to develop ASQRs for the aircraft but expected
HAL to develop the aircraft in five years.




We know how the lack of Trainers has been one of the key reason for many MiG21 accidents. I wonder what explanation IAF would have for this.

Al that we have talked about and heard about how IAF creates ASQR using ad hoc copy paste method by selecting best of all in every column in the excel sheet, all is mentioned in CAG report. :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 15 Feb 2019 18:00

JayS wrote:.......We know how the lack of Trainers has been one of the key reason for many MiG21 accidents. I wonder what explanation IAF would have for this.

Al that we have talked about and heard about how IAF creates ASQR using ad hoc copy paste method by selecting best of all in every column in the excel sheet, all is mentioned in CAG report. :wink:

IAF has no institution. Fighter pilots takeover command of all positions as other trade officers are considered sub par. Yet most fighter pilots are sub par onlee. Seen it from near.


https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 69984?s=19

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 36928?s=19
"as an avid observer of IAF both as an insider (of many decades) & now outsider, IMHO IAF has many diseases. It has no institution. It is simply: "Of the Jockeyes, By the Jockey and For the the Jockies".

Long live the King Jockey, every non_jockey is a born servent in IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 15 Feb 2019 19:03

Haridas wrote:
JayS wrote:.......We know how the lack of Trainers has been one of the key reason for many MiG21 accidents. I wonder what explanation IAF would have for this.

Al that we have talked about and heard about how IAF creates ASQR using ad hoc copy paste method by selecting best of all in every column in the excel sheet, all is mentioned in CAG report. :wink:

IAF has no institution. Fighter pilots takeover command of all positions as other trade officers are considered sub par. Yet most fighter pilots are sub par onlee. Seen it from near.


https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 69984?s=19

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 36928?s=19
"as an avid observer of IAF both as an insider (of many decades) & now outsider, IMHO IAF has many diseases. It has no institution. It is simply: "Of the Jockeyes, By the Jockey and For the the Jockies".

Long live the King Jockey, every non_jockey is a born servent in IAF.


I suppose this is a problem with every AF. I read in a biography recently, post WW2, UASF was dominated by Bomber pilots and they marginalized the Fighter jocks by undermining every project that was meant to be Fighter, by converting it into a bomber or fighter bomber at least. :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby tsarkar » 15 Feb 2019 19:55

Haridas wrote:IAF has no institution. Fighter pilots takeover command of all positions as other trade officers are considered sub par. Yet most fighter pilots are sub par onlee. Seen it from near.


https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 69984?s=19

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 36928?s=19
"as an avid observer of IAF both as an insider (of many decades) & now outsider, IMHO IAF has many diseases. It has no institution. It is simply: "Of the Jockeyes, By the Jockey and For the the Jockies".

Long live the King Jockey, every non_jockey is a born servent in IAF.


Very realistic sentiments, Haridas ji, that I share, however if you had kept the spelling correct & consistent, it might have been more impactful.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2019 08:50

The cretinous decision by the IAF and ACM PC Lal in rejecting the extraordinary offer of a couple of doz. Backfires after our victory in '71 highlights the cultural attitude if the service.The Sovs had a few hundreds of them and were offering them to us for a song. FM Sam Manekshaw slso said that he did not get full cooperation from the IAF.Close support and GA not a top priority. It still is, and a messy bunfight exists between the IAF and IA over ownership of attack helos which should be integrated with ground forces under IA control.

Had these birds been in service today, we would've had a terrific strat. bomber for strat. deterrent purposes, launching LR ASMs,plus the LR maritime strike capability too.The new upgraded version is rapidly entering production for Ru which has used these bombers extensively in the Syrian conflict. We could still pick up a modest no. for the IN.

The former head of the USN, Adm.Greenert spoke about evolving into the payload-centric era instead of the platform- centric one.Highly expensive fighters are becoming an anachronism when new LR PGMs with ranges like BMos and Kalibir missiles are entering service and seeing action.Our ER PGMs and glide bombs will make it possible for less sophisticated aircraft to deliver the goods.Imagine a Backfire with a payload of around 12 1500km+ ASMs doing the biz!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 16 Feb 2019 18:08

Which time of fighter as of today in IAF has MAWS ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Feb 2019 20:23

^mig 29 and mirage upg?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 16 Feb 2019 20:41

Cain Marko wrote:^mig 29 and mirage upg?


Don’t know and not sure

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 17 Feb 2019 22:30

Rakesh wrote:And what is the guarantee that the UK decides to shut down the Tempest program and move to the US sixth generation fighter program, following the JSF model?


While I agree with the post for the most part, I simply do not see this happening for it is going to be HIGHLY unlikely that the USAF actually opens up its PCA program to partnership. This will remain an ATF like model and may only be opened up for export years after it is inducted into the USAF. In fact, with a 5 year $10 Billion in investment into the program sanctioned last year, the USAF essentially put a freeze to even talking about the details of the program and where each potential OEM stands vis-a-vis its bid for those contract dollars.

America is developing a pair of two new high-tech fighter aircraft, and you probably haven’t heard much about them.Under the leadership of Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, the Pentagon has clamped down on talking about cutting-edge capabilities in development, citing concerns about giving potential foes too much information.

This is exact opposite to the approach they would be taking if they wanted to partner which would see them openly discussing this with potential partners and beginning to work on opening the system up (from an approval process perspective) for partnerships. Contrast this to the JSF model, where strategic partnerships were already being formed between US and international firms, and foreign partner (UK) were already embedded in multiple teams and on multiple S&T efforts.

Moreoever, the PCA and the Tempest/SCAF will likely be built to very different requirements. The PCA will likely be very highly Pacific focused for the USAF and there are some solid hints that it will be a counter-air part of a family of systems that includes the a Penetrating Long Range Strike aircraft (B-21), and a Penetrating Long Range ISR Aircraft (Rumored to be the RQ-180) and will therefore outsize and outprice itself from that same market with the two Euro designs likely focusing on the sort of missions in their neck of the woods..

Finally, the UK cannot afford not to be a serious player on the Tempest or SCAF/FCAS. SAAB has already hinted at going to market for raising funds for the Tempest effort, and I believe Leonardo is on-board as well or will soon be. This virtually assures that there will be a $2-5 Billion initial S&T plan that will keep them busy till perhaps the mid 2020's. Beyond this, there is likely to be a push to merge SCAF and Tempest or at least attempt at a convergence.

The SCAF with its 2040 IOC window is too far out and they have only really committed to a $60-100 Million study and definition.

Plenty of volatility in both these programs for any non EU partner to look to join. Best to wait till the mid 2020's when the new politicos in Germany, France and the UK take charge and the dust settles on all these plans and how these countries re-engineer these programs in a post-Brexit/EU leadership era. Both these efforts are way to messy at this point to sink $$ in unless you are already highly integrated with the EU aerospace industry like Italy (Tempest), or Spain (SCAF).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 18 Feb 2019 09:42

brar_w wrote:
Rakesh wrote:And what is the guarantee that the UK decides to shut down the Tempest program and move to the US sixth generation fighter program, following the JSF model?


This will remain an ATF like model and may only be opened up for export years after it is inducted into the USAF.


My thinking is same on this one.

I would rather put my money on FCAS than Tempest. And I would neither join any. Just continue working on AMCA. We have a good plan.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby pushkar.bhat » 18 Feb 2019 12:53

sanjaykumar wrote:To be fair radio licences were only phased out in 1971 in Britain. They were ostensibly to fund radio programming unlike advertisements in the US


BTW You still have a TV License in UK. Speaking of India - I think we have moved forward on that one.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby suryag » 19 Feb 2019 12:56

IR and other sirs, <disclaimer> i know jack shit about aerodynamics/aeronautics</disclaimer> what went wrong with the IJT ? it became like one of those U-19 cricketers who made it big but fizzled out in senior team. Is it so difficult to fix the spin and stall problems?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 19 Feb 2019 13:09

^^^ all trainers require student to learn and master recovery from inadvertent entry into spin, where in the aircraft enters a twisting and rotating downward fall. IJT with all its wind tunnel testing could not enter into spin. So istudent (sic) can't learn the basic skill of spun recovery. Afyer all design & prepetations, on exam day HAL got big zero on IJT.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby suryag » 19 Feb 2019 13:18

Haridas sir- why couldn’t they fix the problem


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