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Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 21 Apr 2017 04:21

LCA TD2 was sent to AFS Dundigal for RCS testing. From ADA's annual report

Tejas (TD2) aircraft is being utilized for RCS studies at AFS Dundigal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 21 Apr 2017 04:26

Indranil wrote:
Zynda wrote:In which config Indranil saar? Clean config? Or with carrying tanks + A2G weapons?

They told me what I can afford to know. I did not seek to know more because it is a burden to know and then keep quiet. They are doing that admirably. I am happy with that.

Kartik, it is more than gains from use of composites.


Did they quote any number, as to what orders lower than the MiG-21's RCS? Anyway, we knew that the MiG-21 itself has a small RCS and is hard to pick up visually as well. Remember the USAF reports on the Bisons that surprised F-15 pilots? Now with an even small RCS and ability to shoot a BVR missile while nose cold (not transmitting the radar), Tejas' cued by Su-30MKIs providing targeting info could take enemy fighters by surprise.

added later:

From the Annual report, there is mention of Development of improved RAM for the Tejas- perhaps this is also being tested at Orange facility Dundigal with the TD2 airframe.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 21 Apr 2017 04:46

There is a quote from either ada or iaf on record saying that lca rcs is 1/3 of mirage 2000

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby malushahi » 21 Apr 2017 05:03

that does not preclude it from being tested at jodhpur previously. from 2014-15 report:

"Radar Cross Section (RCS) measurement trials completed at Defence Laboratory, Jodhpur."

in fact RAM research has been an ongoing core area for DL-J, see here.

"These facilities support the Laboratory test and development of Radar Absorbing materials and products. Base materials are characterized by their electrical parameters of permittivity and permeability at Microwave frequencies, and RAM products are measured for their Return Loss and RCS performance."

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 21 Apr 2017 05:21

I've searched for that and found a number of blogs stating that the LCA's RCS is 1/3 that of the Mirage-2000..but not a direct IAF or ADA quote..could anyone find that?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 21 Apr 2017 06:47

Kartik wrote:
Indranil wrote:They told me what I can afford to know. I did not seek to know more because it is a burden to know and then keep quiet. They are doing that admirably. I am happy with that.

Kartik, it is more than gains from use of composites.


Did they quote any number, as to what orders lower than the MiG-21's RCS?

You understand my position Kartik.
1. They did not tell me. I did not want the responsibility of knowing that figure. I did not ask. All I know is that it is much lower. In RCS much lower is used when there are order(s) involved.
2. They share with me because they can trust me. I wouldn't share even if I knew. RCS of Mig-21 is very well known.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 21 Apr 2017 10:12

Indranil wrote:... RCS of Mig-21 is very well known.

Is it 3m2?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 11 May 2017 10:35

Link found on DFI via Twitter:
Saras to fly again
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 617263.cms
Revived Saras likely to complete first flight in June | Bengaluru News
3-4 minutes

Bengaluru: The re-engined and modified version of India's ambitious 14-seater Saras

aircraft is gearing up for its first flight in June first week.

Having received a thrust from the government under the regional connectivity policy, Bengaluru-based National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) has handed over the aircraft to Indian Air Force's (IAF) Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) for test flights.

First conceived as a civil aircraft, NAL has been pushing Saras for military certification in the past two years, hoping to sell it to the Indian Air Force (IAF). Saras will now boast of multi-role capabilities like feeder line aircraft, air ambulance, executive aircraft, troop transport, reconnaissance, aerial survey and light cargo transport.

The original design included a maximum takeoff weight of 6,100kg and a maximum payload of 1,232kg. The first prototype which completed its maiden flight on May 29, 2004, was overweight at 5,118kg compared to the 4,125kg design specifications.

Even as modifications to make the aircraft airworthy were taken up, the June 6, 2009 crash forced the Directorate General of Civil Aviation to ground the aircraft. The prototype crashed after catching fire in Sheshagiri Halli, near Bidadi, about 30km from Bengaluru. It claimed the lives of three ASTE pilots.

NAL Director Jitendra J Jadhav told TOI on Monday: "The engine tests have already begun. The low-speed taxi and high-speed taxi trials are expected to be completed by the end of this month. After that, the ASTE will do the first flight most probably in the first week of June."

Sources in ASTE, while stating that the completion of the ground tests is followed by a flight, however, said: "We will need to get the go-ahead from the safety review board and the first flight review board."

According to NAL, manufacturing of two Limited Series Prototypes of Saras will require Rs 400 crore to Rs 500 crore. "The final product will be taken care of by the IAF, but we will need this amount for the prototypes," Jadhav said.

19-seater plane

In February, Union science and technology minister Harsh Vardhan and Jadhav made a joint announcement that a new version of Saras would be converted into a 19-seater aircraft.

Harsh Vardhan promised NAL complete support, including any financial requirement. Jadhav said on Monday: "A proposal has been sent to our (Council of Scientific and Industrial Research) headquarters and a feasibility study is complete."

The new proposal will see Saras with a configurable configuration. While the design is for a 14-seater plane, it can be configured to accommodate 19 persons.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 11 May 2017 12:31

Q.What is the expected cost and performance of Saras with other contemporary 14/16/19 seater aircraft? It would be interesting to see what the competition is and how Saras compares. Remember,it is not an IAF req. but an NAL venture.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby RKumar » 11 May 2017 13:55

Philip wrote:Q.What is the expected cost and performance of Saras with other contemporary 14/16/19 seater aircraft? It would be interesting to see what the competition is and how Saras compares. Remember,it is not an IAF req. but an NAL venture.


End PAID Cost will be lower as money does not go out of country as it will reduce imports.

Performance - Even if it is lower then comparable planes. It will be a step in right direction. Somehow this project was pushed back my a decade. In long run, we will have systems. It is like learning core of new technology.

GoI should support and push it with all its might.

Congratulations to NAL and all the best ASTE with the tests!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 12 May 2017 02:03

Best of luck to the Saras team.
Do we know the new engine and the modifications proposed?

Thanks in advance.


Up Close and Personal with reborn Saras

Up Close & Personal With India’s Reborn Saras Light Aircraft

Shiv Aroor |Mar 15 2017 9 30 am

Up Close & Personal With India's Reborn Saras Light Aircraft



SARAS PT1N ready for April Low-Speed Taxi Trials


Eight years ago, on 6 March 2009, the second prototype of India’s Saras light civil aircraft crashed near Bengaluru, killing its three-man Indian Air Force test crew. Already beset with technical challenges not uncommon to aviation development, the accident very nearly ended the project. The programme went into an inevitable downward spiral until it veritably departed consciousness, even that of its principal intended customer, the Indian Air Force. The eight year struggle to keep the aircraft project alive has largely remained unknown, with few details emerging from a project that was all but written off. Livefist has now had a chance to interview the new chief of the agency that is fighting to meet a June-July target to get a modified first prototype (See photo) back in the air. In a very candid and wide-ranging interview to Livefist, his first since taking over as director of the National Aerospace Laboratories (CSIR-NAL), Jitendra J. Jadhav provides the first detailed inside view of the Saras’ enormously difficult journey from death, back to life. Our interaction in full:

Why has it taken eight years for the SARAS programme to be in a position to return to flight test?

After the unfortunate accident on 6th March, 2009, all the activities related to SARAS aircraft had to be stopped till completion of accident investigation by DGCA and subsequent implementation of recommendations thereon. The investigation absolved CSIR-NAL of any design deficiencies, but attributed the cause to procedural deficiencies. Other major factors for this delay in resumption of programme were: Change of Regulatory body from DGCA to CEMILAC to meet certification requirements of IAF as the possible launch customer; re-orientation time for CSIR-NAL to the procedures of military certification agency and the time for the regulatory body to get a grasp on the project, as the entry was lateral and at an advanced stage of project. By the time the first prototype was modified and ready for Taxi trials at the end of year 2013, the project had reached its date of completion and CSIR-NAL had to wait for a formal approval from Govt to continue further. This was crucial as the project had important stake holders like HAL, IAF, CEMILAC and DGAQA towards further flight testing and certification of SARAS.

What challenges have been faced by the programme in the last eight years, including the lessons learned from the 2009 accident?

The main challenges faced were / are heavy attrition of trained human resources, obsolescence of critical aircraft systems and LRU’s, vendor reluctance to respond to CSIR-NAL minimal requirements (which is specific to prototype development wherein only one or two systems are built), availability of experienced Test pilots for twin-turboprop configurations for full project duration, availability of dedicated staff from regulatory body due to their preoccupation in several projects of national importance and fund availability for prototype development activity with inbuilt risk of failures.


SARAS PT1 being modified into SARAS PT1N

What specific changes have been made to the first prototype compared to its earlier configuration?

Major changes made to the first prototype, termed PT1N, are upgrading the propulsive system including efficient nacelle, larger metallic rudder for improved controllability, new landing-gear actuators, new brake system to cater to the needs of higher AUW, improved FCS, flame resistant design for nacelle etc.

What are the flight test/IOC/FOC delivery timelines for the SARAS? Can you share figures of total expenditure on the project so far, plus intended expenditure until delivery to customer.

Shortly, 1) CSIR-NAL will carry out flight-testing and evaluation of PT1N aircraft which will provide essential information towards arriving at aircraft configuration for the subsequent weight optimized build for Limited Series Production. Also 2)the developmental flights of Saras PT1N will lead to evaluation of performance and handling characteristics of the aircraft to fine tune the design modifications. This would further pave the way forward towards arriving at an aircraft which will be suitable to meet the IAF requirements through LSP phase.

Total approved budget for the 10thplan proposal project “Spearheading small civil aircraft design, development and manufacture” is INR 297 crores. It is prudent to mention here that the Human resources created in all aspects of civil aircraft design, prototype manufacturing, development of machining centers across the country which can produce airworthy components, the assets like excellent aircraft hangar, state-of-the-art telemetry centre etc., far outweigh the money spent on the project.

What is the productionisation/manufacturing plan for SARAS — what is the sales/export forecast?

Once the aircraft is mid-way to certification and the final SOP is frozen, an industrial partner will be identified towards productionisation /manufacturing. Initially IAF has shown interest in acquiring 15 aircraft and it is hoped that this could further go up to at least 50.

What new roles are envisaged from the SARAS other than light commute and logistics?

SARAS can also be useful for Air ambulance, Maritime Patrolling, Border surveillance, Commutation for regional connectivity and Special Missions. Apart from these applications, SARAS can be used as an excellent flying test bed for new LRU development and qualification. This is so because of the simple reason that the build of SARAS is totally indigenous and can be updated or modified for LRU testing and qualification.

What is the current status of the National Civil Aircraft (NCA) programme of which NAL is an integral part?

At CSIR-NAL, studies have been carried out regarding developing a Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA). The feasibility study indicated: about 250-300 aircraft for India (20 year demand forecast), international market demand for over 7000 RTA class of aircraft and military transport of this class in India : ~150 aircraft (replacement for An-32 and HS748). The suggested model by the High Power Committee is technology development funding by government and equipping/manufacturing in a JV/SPV mode. Presently, CSIR-NAL is contemplating on Phase 1 of the development (ie.) preliminary design phase (PDP). It is envisaged that, CSIR-NAL along with public/private partnership can come together to take this initiative forward with the government.

What is the export scenario of NAL aircraft and systems at this time?

CSIR-NAL is planning for 2 seat ab-initio aircraft Hansa – Next Generation with advanced features aimed at low acquisition cost, low operating cost and minimum maintenance. The project once approved and implemented, we envisage the private partner to take up production and marketing not only catering to Indian market but also to other developing countries.

Further, we are in partnership and collaborative mode with M/s Mahindra Aerospace for the development and certification of CNM-5 aircraft both in India and Australia. While the certification of CASA in Australia will be the responsibility M/s Mahindra acquired Gibbs Aerospace, discussion are in progress with Mahindra Aerospace for manufacturing Five Seat General Aviation Aircraft (CNM5) Prototype Leading to FAR 23 Certifications by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) in India. With Indian and Australian certificate in place it would be easy for us to market the CNM5 aircraft abroad.



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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 12 May 2017 02:16

Also other sites say weight was reduced by 500 kgs by using composite wings. This is greats stuff that they are willing to fly the prototype with these new wings.

The P&W engines are upgraded to 1250 SHP from 850 SHP.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 12 May 2017 06:51


Well worth remembering the reasons for the delay - which you can expect will be common to any program in India. These things need sorting out I don't know how. NAL as design body seems to lack too many important links to do anything on time. Would be happy to be told that I am wrong.

Delays: List of excuses - some of these appear incurable to me. We will never get anywhere like this. No one in government seems to be bothered (too stupid/underinformed?) "Make in India" rhetoric notwithstanding
  • Change of Regulatory body from DGCA to CEMILAC to meet certification requirements of IAF as the possible launch customer;
  • re-orientation time for CSIR-NAL to the procedures of military certification agency and the time for the regulatory body to get a grasp on the project
  • approval from government
  • heavy attrition of trained human resources,
  • obsolescence of critical aircraft systems and LRU’s,
  • vendor reluctance to respond to CSIR-NAL minimal requirements (which is specific to prototype development)
  • availability of experienced Test pilots for twin-turboprop configurations for full project duration
  • availability of dedicated staff from regulatory body due to their preoccupation in several projects of national importance
  • fund availability for prototype development activity with inbuilt risk of failures.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 12 May 2017 09:30

Nal is a science lab like tsagi of russia. They are not hal type outfits attached skunk or phantom works. So unsuited to building product vs doing science and designs.

Hal and ada have to pull pants up and lead

Tsagi did the validation and brahmanic math behind the flanker airframe design....sukhoi designed the product incl all eqpt and tests...salyut produced it i think. They have some such system in place.

Nal i think would be more like nasa dryden flight research labs? the tds of raptor F16xl eurofighter were all tested at nasa.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby chola » 12 May 2017 11:25

We need to follow through with the Saras just like the LCA. I hope we don't waste the years already spent on the IJT either.

These past weeks saw new developments of three chini programs -- FC-31 2.0, JF-17B and L-15B. All three were originally cast-offs overshadowed by the prestige programs in the J-20, J-10, J-11 lines. From what I read they were kept alive by their respective design bureaus without funding from the center. L-15 was finally accepted by the PLAAF, the JF-17 found the PAF and while jury is still out on the FC-31, the 2nd prototype and rumors of the Navy looking at it means it has more than a chance at a future.

This is the kind of entrepreneurship I'd like to see in HAL, ADA, NAL and the rest of them. Instead of waiting for a directive from the GOI on a phoren jv negotiated by babus in other bodies, build something you are capable of and then persue doggedly.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 12 May 2017 11:43

NAL designed and built the Saras by putting their theory into practice. They did a good job except for a few glitches. Three prototypes were built and the second one crashed due to human error. They did not wait it out and built a fourth one which incorporated lessons learnt and got it updated engine and new composite wings.
In root cause analysis one separates those causes which are in sphere of control those which are not.

By that criteria NAL did pretty good recovery from the crash 8 years ago with miniscule funding.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 12 May 2017 11:56

yes they were always short of senior staff. one of our friends father was there in mechanical side. met him a few years ago. due to staff shortage he was hired back on contract after retirement.

imo these labs need bigtime funding to build the infra AND given freedom by govt to define and create their own payscale. these jobs cannot be done by anyone and our output in fields like aerospace or naval arch is already small. pay them really well with pension and housing and dont lose them to itvity or massa phd...let them do phd in tieup with IISC.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 20:40

I think IAF should sponsor an in-house effort to develop a new higher muzzle velocity for the GSch 23 gun. This would require different propellant and material changes to the gun barrels to account for wear and tear. Added bonus is keeps in-house R&D troops sharp.

Current gun has muzzle velocity of 715 m/s using the AM-23 cartridge (23x115) It should be upped to achieve ~950 - 1050 m/sec. Currently the 23x152 cartridge for the ZSU 23 has this muzzle velocity. But would need extensive redesign.
The change to higher burn rate propellant would be within the HMRL capability in Pune.

This will increase the kinetic energy by the square of the delta velocity.
Makes the round equivalent to the new Mauser 25mm cartridge.
Further it will improve the combat efficacy of the gun in air to air combat.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby KBDagha » 19 May 2017 16:10

Just In #HTT40 PT2 maiden flight successful. @mathrubhumieng

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 19 May 2017 18:00

KBDagha wrote:Just In #HTT40 PT2 maiden flight successful. @mathrubhumieng


Landing gear retraction/extension, max altitude, speed and G, all done today.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 19 May 2017 18:05

What is the max operational alt. of Saras? Can it be used in the HImalayan airstrips where C-295s will take over from Avros and AN-32s

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 19 May 2017 21:40

I don't see why not as it has uprated engines and lower structural weight?

I saw in some IAF perspective planning paper from IDSA that they are counting on Saras in the out years.
So IAF is fully committed to this plane.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby YashG » 19 May 2017 23:13

Indranil wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Did they quote any number, as to what orders lower than the MiG-21's RCS?

You understand my position Kartik.
1. They did not tell me. I did not want the responsibility of knowing that figure. I did not ask. All I know is that it is much lower. In RCS much lower is used when there are order(s) involved.
2. They share with me because they can trust me. I wouldn't share even if I knew. RCS of Mig-21 is very well known.


Going by this RCS value table http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm Mig 21 RCS is 3 m2.
Usually Mathematical understanding of one order is generally 10 times. So even at one order less than MiG-21, LCA wll be 0.3 m2, at two orders less it may be 0.03 m2. In either in case its not bad - better than typhoon or rafale. At 0.03 it is only an order more than some stealth planes.

And if RAM tech improves, maybe we can push LCA much lower.

Unless my understanding of "orders" is different than what indranil implied, the RCS of LCA looks pretty impressive! Anything I missed?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 21 May 2017 04:13

In the the late nineties, the Russians were supposed to have achieved an rcs reduction on the 21 that was supposed to be truly impressive. Iirc, IAF brass was given a demonstration. Mainly RAM based. So, the lca should be a game changer, which is why I'd like to see some semi recessed AAM carriage on this bird. Or at least some carriage in the fuselage area like the m2k5. Would be great if the mk2 took this approach instead of the multiple rack idea of the gripen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 21 May 2017 06:04

Cain Marko wrote:In the the late nineties, the Russians were supposed to have achieved an rcs reduction on the 21 that was supposed to be truly impressive. Iirc, IAF brass was given a demonstration. Mainly RAM based. So, the lca should be a game changer, which is why I'd like to see some semi recessed AAM carriage on this bird. Or at least some carriage in the fuselage area like the m2k5. Would be great if the mk2 took this approach instead of the multiple rack idea of the gripen.

It is far better to achieve stealth with attack weapons so enemy air defences are less likely to see the attacker than simply putting defensive weapons like AAMs. Semi recessed AAMs adding to stealth means that in the air defence role the Tejas would be seen later by an adversary. But that is not the problem. That adversary has to be seen first which is the real problem if he is stealthy and is carrying attack weapons

Stealth should be achieved for attack. For defence - detection of stealth is more important.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 21 May 2017 17:53

Dear All, I couldnt find any other thread to ask you this. Can someone clarify me about the Sachin Tendulkar association with Indian Air Force. Plenty of links on internet say that he was awarded Honorary Group Captain in 2010 by IAF and he was again made Honorary Group Captain by IAF in 2015. What does this mean? Was his first term was over and second term was extended in 2015 OR was he removed in between? Or is this wrong media reporting?

2010 - http://toi.in/sEZmRY50/a19ai

2015 - http://m.hindustantimes.com/cricket/ten ... 7drGP.html

Kindly someone help clarify please?

PS - He was removed from being brand ambassador in 2013 but that is not equal to removing him from Honorary Group Captain.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 28 May 2017 23:17

shiv wrote:It is far better to achieve stealth with attack weapons so enemy air defences are less likely to see the attacker than simply putting defensive weapons like AAMs. Semi recessed AAMs adding to stealth means that in the air defence role the Tejas would be seen later by an adversary. But that is not the problem. That adversary has to be seen first which is the real problem if he is stealthy and is carrying attack weapons

Stealth should be achieved for attack. For defence - detection of stealth is more important.

To some extent I agree, perhaps larger munitions can be shaped for better stealth. At the same time, It is not like stealth plays no role in air defence. Having a smaller signature would greatly help against aggressors, even stealthy ones, especially in combination with GBAD radars and aew. The use of such support assets does not mean air defence fighters need not be concerned with rcs.

Note that semi recessed weapons could also improve platform kinematics by reducing drag.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 28 May 2017 23:20

I have a sneaky suspicion that bisons have received some treatment and are therfore much harder to track.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 29 May 2017 06:59

Cain Marko wrote:
Note that semi recessed weapons could also improve platform kinematics by reducing drag.

What is kinematics?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 29 May 2017 07:48

shiv wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
Note that semi recessed weapons could also improve platform kinematics by reducing drag.

What is kinematics?

etymologically, the study of motion I beliieve, although perhaps aerodynamics might have been a better word - I'm no physics guru though. in a generic sense, the a fighters ability to move.....related to its ability to accelerate, gain and maintain velocity. The point beinng, having recessed weapons carriage will probably help the fighter get better range, acceleration and turn radii. All of which will be crucial in offensive or defensive roles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 29 May 2017 07:58

Cain Marko wrote:I have a sneaky suspicion that bisons have received some treatment and are therfore much harder to track.

Bisons were getting a composite tail, RAM coatings & an israeli jammer?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 29 May 2017 09:46

BiSON upgrade never had composite Tail but they always has RAM Treatment and carried a Jammer thats the known part.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 29 May 2017 09:57

Cain Marko wrote:
shiv wrote:What is kinematics?

etymologically, the study of motion I beliieve, although perhaps aerodynamics might have been a better word - I'm no physics guru though. in a generic sense, the a fighters ability to move.....related to its ability to accelerate, gain and maintain velocity. The point beinng, having recessed weapons carriage will probably help the fighter get better range, acceleration and turn radii. All of which will be crucial in offensive or defensive roles.

Your definition differs from what Google tells me - so let us leave out fancy jargon

Recessed carriage is always at the expense of internal fuselage or wing space. Something internal has to be sacrificed to create that recessed space. That could be fuel or some avionics, or rerouting/rewiring. So the assumption that the fighter will get better range, acceleration and turn radius is guesswork hidden inside the code-word "kinematics". It is just guesswork/general knowledge and not a specific fact for every single fighter on earth. We don't know for sure that the range and turn radius of a specific fighter will be improved if a jugaad recessing is done after designing a fighter that does not have recessed bays (like LCA). I think things like "kinematics" are tested in simulation and in real time scenarios for various design parameters. The advantages are purely assumed until they can be shown to work.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 29 May 2017 10:24

We are going OT
http://www.euclideanspace.com/physics/kinematics/
Kinematics: The study and description of motion, without regard to its causes, for example, we can calculate the end point of a robot arm from the angles of all its joints. Alternatively, given the end point of the robot arm, we could calculate the angles and settings of all its joints required to put it there (inverse kinematics - IK). Kinematics can be studied without regard to mass or physical quantities that depend on mass.

We will talk about dynamics later. One way to think about the difference between kinematics and dynamics is that dynamics is the cause of motion and kinematics is the effect.


I think the word is a nice sounding word that feels good to use. But it is not guesswork. The word indicates very specific parameters of movement, velocity and acceleration which need to be measured and documented before declaring something as having "improved kinematics". In other words it is not about guesswork or gut feeling. "Take the spare tyre and tools out of your Tata Nano and you will have improved kinematics" is an example of gut feeling guesswork.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 29 May 2017 21:39

shiv wrote:Your definition differs from what Google tells me - so let us leave out fancy jargon

Recessed carriage is always at the expense of internal fuselage or wing space. Something internal has to be sacrificed to create that recessed space. That could be fuel or some avionics, or rerouting/rewiring. So the assumption that the fighter will get better range, acceleration and turn radius is guesswork hidden inside the code-word "kinematics". It is just guesswork/general knowledge and not a specific fact for every single fighter on earth. We don't know for sure that the range and turn radius of a specific fighter will be improved if a jugaad recessing is done after designing a fighter that does not have recessed bays (like LCA). I think things like "kinematics" are tested in simulation and in real time scenarios for various design parameters. The advantages are purely assumed until they can be shown to work.

Never said anything otherwise. But I will stand by my guess as the advantages have been tested on other aircraft quite successfully. You need to realize that my comments were made in the context of the suggestion for multiple ejector racks for the lca, especially the mk2, something that would negatively impact its flight performance. Conformal carriage as an iterative development was attempted successfully on the F4, so the lca mk2 might be a decent candidate as well considering that the changes being recommended such as the addition of more length and width are not small to begin with.
In offensive and defensive missions, conformal carriage, if not semi recessed carriage, should help. And it would probably make a difference to head on rcs values too.

As far as fancy jargon is concerned, I frankly didn't think it as fancy to begin with, and used it as a matter of convenience in a generic sense as pertaining to the flight performance of the lca. Consider that most of my posts are made on a mobile device, and it is certainly more convenient to use one word in a generic sense than writing an entire sentence. didn't mean to offend anyone with its use. .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 29 May 2017 21:46

Austin wrote:BiSON upgrade never had composite Tail but they always has RAM Treatment and carried a Jammer thats the known part.


That's what I had read too, and I was wondering if the comparison of the lca was made with reference to the bison or the basic mig 21. Keep in mind that the ram treated mig had a much smaller signature than the basic model.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 30 May 2017 23:56

From FB

France is in talks to transfer upto 30 Jaguars to IAF

France is currently in negotiations with the Indian Air Force for the sale of about 30 Jaguar that belonged to the French Air Force before their withdrawal in July 2005.

These airframes will not be used for active service but for spare parts which will be used for fully operationalizing the upgraded fleet of Jaguar IM/IS and Jaguar IB and to maintain sufficient spares in the inventory.

Currently, IAF has a fleet of 130 Jaguars for operational missions and 30 Jaguar IB trainers. Approximately 60 of these Jaguars will be modified to DARIN III standards, the rest remaining at DARIN II standard until they're retired.
Source - Defens-Aero

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 31 May 2017 23:00

Austin wrote:BiSON upgrade never had composite Tail but they always has RAM Treatment and carried a Jammer thats the known part.

They had tested one on a Mig-21 once upon a time. This was the first ever large composite part tested in India

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby PratikDas » 01 Jun 2017 10:53

Sputnik: India Inaugurates Aeronautical Test Range for Next Gen Fighter Jets, UAVs
29.05.2017
Soon to be home to India’s ongoing aeronautical projects, Defense Minister Arun Jaitley inaugurated the newly-built 2.2-km-long aeronautical test range (ATR) [runway] of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The ATR, which is situated in the southern state of Karnataka, will have its runway extended in the near future by another kilometer.

The ATR is the first of its kind range in the country exclusively meant to conduct flight-tests of indigenous unmanned and manned aircrafts, developed by the DRDO including the naval and trainer versions of the Light Combat Aircraft, the unmanned air vehicles- Rustom-I and Rustom-II (Tapas); the airborne early warning & control systems (AEW&C), air-to-ground weapons, parachutes and aerostats, etc," a statement issued by India's Defense Ministry said.

It is considered that most of the trial of light combat aircraft Tejas will be conducted here from now onwards. Spread across 4,029 acres, the 28-kilometer perimeter strategic test range envisages a 2.2-kilometer runway besides other tracking and control equipment.

"We have a neighbor who has been perpetuating security threats for the past seven decades as far as India is concerned. And therefore our level of defense preparedness should be optimal, as it always is. And if your level of defense preparedness is always to be optimal, you need to eventually establish facilities that, to a large extent, can be manufactured within the country," Arun Jaitley said.

Last November, Indian scientist had successfully carried out the test flight of Tapas 201 (Rustom-II), a medium altitude long endurance (MALE) UAV at the ATR.


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