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Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Mar 2017 21:35

Not V tail, but like this.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby PratikDas » 17 Mar 2017 21:59

JayS wrote:- A lot of challenges in designing CLAW for UAV considering that there is no man to deal with the contingency in case of failure of data link or some component failure. First flight was delayed by months just for this reason, how to cover data link loss situation during first TO.

Thank you for the summary, JayS ji.

Incidentally, Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal and Air Marshall Rajkumar recalled the exciting first flight of the Tejas in 2001 when the aircraft lost its telemetry link soon after take off. SDREs have learned their lesson.

4 January 2001 - an extract from Air Marshal Rajkumar's book 'The Tejas Story'
I was just about to begin breathing normally when the telemetry auto tracking system failed and all 16 screens started showing erroneous readings. :eek: There was no way of knowing what was happening in the innards of the aircraft! Ravi asked, 'Shall I call him back?' Chase aircraft are provided to enable the test team to cope with such eventualities. I said 'Tell Nambi to move into close formation and check the aircraft for fuel and hydraulic leaks or other signs of abnormal behaviour'. Kothi said that his cockpit readings were fine and the aircraft was flying normally. Nambi reported no sign of any abnormality. I decided to continue with the planned flight profile and told Ravi to inform the pilot of my decision. Kothi agreed with me and continued with the flight. I aged a lot in those few seconds!


Soon it was time to land and Kothi positioned himself on a 10 km long straight-in approach to Runway 09. When he was about three minutes away on approach, the telemetry antenna locked on to the aircraft and data reappeared on the screens. Ravi asked the systems specialists to confirm that all was normal, and to my great relief and everyone else's they reported all systems were GO.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 20 Mar 2017 01:22

Indranil wrote:


Key points from the presentation.

***Clearances and Certification
- HTT-40 Specifications:
# Length = 11.3m
# Span = 11m
# Height = 3.7m
# Take-off Weight = 2800kg
# Internal Fuel = 450kg
# TO roll at SL = 1000m
# Landing roll at SL = 1000m
# Max speed CAS at SL = 400kmph
# Stall speed = 140kmph
# Service ceiling = 6000m
# Ferry Range = 1000km

- Certification Challenges for HTT-40
# Stringent timelines to meet user requirements
# Emphasize on Analysis and Simulation for System Clearance
# Evaluation of Stall and Spin characteristics using mathematical models
# Non-availability of Certification documents from (LRU) OEMs due to IPR issues or high documentation costs.

- LRU Certification: Total 80 Indian LRUs and 65 imported LRUs were certified. LRU Certification was challenge since for some Qualification Testing documentation was not available or OEM were not willing to share. In some cases, if same LRUs were on other certifies systems performance from those was considered for certification for HTT-40.

- Aircraft System Certification: Total of 13 Aircraft systems to be certified. Lot of challenges here as well. Static Test specimen was not available, thus actual prototype wings were used for testing and then fitted to the prototype (proposal accepted with certain envelop restrictions). Unacceptable neck loaded for front seat during ejection for smaller pilots, thus restriction imposed for than <70 percentile pilots.
# Aerodynamics
# Avionics
# Environmental Control System
# Electric System
# Escape System
# Flight Control System
# Fuel system
# Hydraulics system
# Landing Gear System
# Life Support System
# Power plant
# Structures
# Communication and navigation System

-Aircraft First Flight Clearance: On 15th May 2016, First flight clearance was issued and on 31st May 2016, the First flight was conducted.

***Design and Development
-Till date, no proactive steps from HAL on BTA development. HAL used to wait for approvals and funding. HTT-40 was a different case, where HAL went ahead with the development by putting money from onw pocket and without any commitment from IAF whatsoever.

- Completion of Design to First Flight - within 11 months

- Confirmed order of ~70 BTA from IAF now

- CEMILAC was more of a Design partner than just a Certification Agency

- With typical approach it would have taken 10yrs for entire development, which is a worldwide norm. But with CEMILAC onboard right from proposal writing stage, the time for certification reduced considerably.

-Preliminary Design took ~6months. HAL waited for formal approval from IAF for 2yrs, but it never came. Thats when HAL decided to go ahead on its own in May 2013 by investing 300Cr from own pocket. Detail design took 2yrs i.e. till May 2015. And within 11month thereon, first flight took place. Now certification is expected by end of 2018 and starting of deliveries to IAF are expected by 2019.

- HTT-40 betters PC-7 by good margin on many parameters. This is mainly due to more powerful engine which was selected keeping weaponization in mind.

- Within first 50 flights, 6 major PSQR requirements are already achieved.

- Preliminary Design resulted in 4705 drawings. The engine had to be changed midway from PW to Honeywell (PW excused itself from the program for some reasons). This resulted in rework on engine part with 2000 modified drawings.

- Close 300 electrical drawings were generated.

- Close to 700 WT tests for initial configuration design. Learning from IJT experience, a mathematical model for the aircraft was developed early into the design cycle. Not that its very critical but absence of it might be an impediment.

- Early focus on Spin tests, starting from Aug 2015, learning from the IJT Sitara experience. The WT tests done in France show very promising results on spin characteristics.

- Weight reduction program has already commenced for HTT-40 to make more room for weaponisation.

- Digital Mock-up (DMU): Fully functional (systems' functionalities can be simulated) DMU was made which gave a very good picture of everything to all the concerned teams. Production team was involved right in the design phase, again resulting in shorter design cycle with less modification needed on the account of manufacturability. DMU also expedited assembly process since position of all parts was known ahead of time.

- CEMILAC had full access to the DMU..!!

- CAT-1 crash on IJT-36 due to FCS circuit issues, which was taken care of in HTT-40 already.

- Since IAF was not onboard for HTT-40, they never issued any RFA (Request for Action) for maintainability of HTT-40. HAL took RFAs issued for IJT-36 and LCA and incorporated them in HTT-40, to remain ahead in the game.

- Almost 70% of LRUs in HTT-40 are borrowed from IJT-36, LCA and even from Dornier and ALH. (due to time and cost contraints). This not only reduced development time but also System testing time.

- The prototypes were built using production level jigs (Would result in quick productionization of HTT-40)

- Huge participation from Local MSMEs. The target set by the RM of 60% involvement of privet players was met with ease.

- Total of 4900 parts. Most critical/special components were made in HAL. Close to 3000 parts from private companies. Divided into categories and about 150 critical parts were sent to CEMILAC for clearances. Rest of the parts were cleared by HAL itself with the delegated authority from CEMILAC.

- Wiring looms (total 180 nos) done on the bench right from prototype manufacturing, reducing wiring time from 2-3 months to 2 days.

- Wings were outsourced to Taneja Aerospace, but the company went into financial troubles. HAL had to take over the wing production, setting back the program by 2months. This is the reason there was no STS specimen in time. CEMILAC allowed prototype wings to be used for testing upto 100%. Later new set of wings were available for ultimate load testing of 150%.

- Total 65 EGR (Engine Ground Run) before the first flight, out of which 40 EGR were done ny HAL on its own. Instead of 3days per EGR, HAL could do 8 EGR per day to finish all EGR tesing in 15 days. This followed by the LSTT, HSTT, FRRB etc followed by the first flight.

- Interesting information - HAL always blamed to have too much FoS on wing design (upto 200%). Ideally wing should break at 151%. For HTT-40, wing broke at 161% in the ultimate testing. This shows the level of optimization. HAL previously has had ultimate failures at >190% for similar wing structures, indicating over design, resulting in overweight.

- By allowing restricted testing for the first flight clearance, CEMILAC could cut down time by 1-1.5yrs.

- Fuel system certification using jigs take 1yr typically. But CEMILAC took different approach for HTT-40 based on analysis and simulation, cutting down a significant time of fuel system certification.

***Flight Testing
- Decision on Flight test points. Test point repository was made.

- Total 490 test points identified. 44 flights taken place and 3 design modification done already, resulting from the flight tests - Rudder design was modified, Fuel tanks were pressurised and Aileron balance tabs were introduced.

This shows that when SDRE Evil Yindoos come together, they can prepare and execute their dark, nasty plans very well.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2017 02:02

A true Agile development!

Now time to apply the same to AMCA and get the prototype out.

It would be interesting to see how they go about for AMCA

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lilo » 20 Mar 2017 02:42

Thanks for the detailed write up JayS ji.

HTT was fructified in record time by a young group as if it was a war time effort.
Even CEMILAC (a testing & certifying agency) got involved from the beginning.

Wonder what was holding back IAF from getting involved ? Eyes set on the pilatus deal ?
This has been the recurrent thing since LCA .

I think DRDO/Hal (the respective premier agencies) should also have a say in deciding who rises to the topmost position in the triforces from the shortlist - then maybe, just maybe we will get our equivalent of a Rickover .
Only when its tied to their promotion prospects the import pasand outlook will finally be exorcised from the forces.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 20 Mar 2017 03:02

Indian aviation has come of age!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Neshant » 20 Mar 2017 04:50

Very sad to see how poorly HAL performs on delivering product.
This despite years of effort.

--------------------------

India's HJT-36 Sitara remains 'unfit' for use as intermediate jet trainer

http://www.janes.com/article/68386/indi ... et-trainer

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) HJT-36 Sitara remains "unfit" for service as an intermediate jet trainer (IJT) as a result of "unresolvable" technological problems with the aircraft, senior Indian officials associated with the programme have told Jane's.

"There has been no marked progress in the IJT programme," a senior HAL official said at Aero India 2017 show held in mid-February Bangalore.

However, he added, efforts are still underway to try and re-design the HJT-36's tail to resolve issues linked to the platform's critical stall and spin characteristics to provide trainee pilots with greater manoeuvrability of the aircraft.

Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officials said that until these issues are rectified, the HJT-36 would remain "unfit" for use as an IJT for fighter pilots.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Neshant » 20 Mar 2017 05:00

Tragic.

But the ratio of loss is still not too bad for the Su-30s given the environment in which they operate.

It illustrates one of the benefits of twin engine aircraft not factored into the cost when comparing single vs twin engined planes. The ability to land in an emergency on one engine in the event of an engine failure saves numerous planes.

------------------

India loses Su-30, Chetak on same day

http://www.janes.com/article/68780/indi ... n-same-day

An Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30MKI ('Flanker-H') fighter crashed in India's western Rajasthan state during a routine training flight on 15 March, injuring three people on the ground.

The IAF said both crewmembers ejected safely from the twin-engined fighter, which had taken off from Uttarlai airbase, near the Pakistan border. An inquiry has been ordered into the accident.

Senior IAF officers said the force's 240-strong Su-30MKI fleet, constituting the backbone of its fighter inventory, was being grounded for 'precautionary' checks before being cleared to resume flying.

The IAF has lost seven Su-30MKIs since 2009 and in May 2016 former defence minister Manohar Parrikar told parliament that the Su-30MKI fleet had suffered 34 mid-air engine failures over the past two years, forcing the aircraft affected to land on just one engine.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 20 Mar 2017 08:16

Very inteersting talk on "Improving Situational Awareness and Quality of Servicew using 3 Dimensional Audio Warning System (3DAWS)"


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby abhik » 20 Mar 2017 09:43

The engine failure rate is still too much. If it were a single engine fighter with the same engine we would see 8-9 crashes every year.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 20 Mar 2017 12:19

NRao wrote:Very inteersting talk on "Improving Situational Awareness and Quality of Servicew using 3 Dimensional Audio Warning System (3DAWS)"



Haven't seen the video but I saw 3D Audio warning system in HAL stall in Aero India 2017. They had a small demo kit also.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2017 16:35

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 48/photo/1

Import Content of various HAL products as released by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.


Image

srai
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 20 Mar 2017 16:42

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status/842331086269083648/photo/1

Import Content of various HAL products as released by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.


Image


Aero engines and Radars are the main import content. Those are expensive, especially with foreign currency conversions.

Other than that, it seems India has achieved 70% indigenization (by number). For import by value reduction, the INR would need to be higher than USD or EUR. Even one imported part/component from USA or Europe would skew up the value percentage points.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 20 Mar 2017 17:38

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status/842331086269083648/photo/1

Import Content of various HAL products as released by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.


Image

Someone archive this please. The question comes up so often it should be tattooed on every BRFites wrist for easy reference

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 20 Mar 2017 17:44

srai wrote:Other than that, it seems India has achieved 70% indigenization (by number). For import by value reduction, the INR would need to be higher than USD or EUR. Even one imported part/component from USA or Europe would skew up the value percentage points.


The word indiginisation has a broad meaning in Indian context , many of lic produced foreign componets like Radar for Naval Ships , Engines etc made by BEL,BDL etc are termed as indiginised although it could just be lic building in India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 20 Mar 2017 18:00

abhik wrote:The engine failure rate is still too much. If it were a single engine fighter with the same engine we would see 8-9 crashes every year.


Wonder if the J10 has an interesting time with the engine.

It is funny how TFTA PLAAF & PAF have frontline single engine jet, engine which we consider unreliable! They want us to believe it is all hunky dory.

on the other hand a SDRE LCA has a outstanding engine history!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rishi_Tri » 31 Mar 2017 09:50

What might this be? Some testing going on over skies of Bangalore. Picked it up late night on FlightRadar.

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/8 ... 0066312192

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 31 Mar 2017 12:33

Rishi_Tri wrote:What might this be? Some testing going on over skies of Bangalore. Picked it up late night on FlightRadar.

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/8 ... 0066312192

This is rookie pilots getting touch and go trainings for their certification and currency..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rishi_Tri » 31 Mar 2017 13:57

Thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2017 19:42

MiG 27s rotary 30 mm demolisher on display at Shillon Air Force Museum
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby jamwal » 31 Mar 2017 20:56

I was there last year. Interesting place.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 07 Apr 2017 01:32

India keen to buy MiG-29Ns from Malaysia


NEW DELHI --- India has stated its keenness to buy the MiG-29 aircraft from Malaysia and upgrade them for use by its air force.


Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak said the proposal was among the aspects of military cooperation agreed to by Malaysia and India.

In this matter, he said the Ministry of Defence and the Royal Malaysian Air Force (TUDM) would look at the form of cooperation, including handling the Sukhoi aircraft and spare parts.

"There is a possibility too that they will buy our MiG 29 aircraft for refit. We reciprocate by accepting spare parts for our Sukhoi aircraft programme," he told a media conference at the end of a six-day visit to India which started on March 30 in Chennai.


According to leading military aviation magazine, 'Air Forces Monthly', the Royal Malaysian Air Force in 1995 procured 18 MiG-29N from Russia, and presently has 10 MiG-29N and 2 MiG-29NU (trainers) in its fleet.
..


Looks like a pragmatic move by India. the Malaysian MiG-29Ns could be run through the UPG upgrade program, allowing the IAF to allocate additional MiG-29UPGs to the existing 3 squadrons, or raise a 4th squadron that will be at 3/4th strength.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Khalsa » 07 Apr 2017 01:53

shiv wrote:MiG 27s rotary 30 mm demolisher on display at Shillon Air Force Museum
Image


I am having evil thoughts at thought of repurposing this baby (by the Army).
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2017 03:58

Latest Ghatak configuration - from ADA's annual report 2015-16

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 19 Apr 2017 06:15

I hope we learn LO tech in this

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 19 Apr 2017 14:31

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status/842331086269083648/photo/1

Import Content of various HAL products as released by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.


Image


I am wondering why ALH and Do228 has such high import content by % and number since HAL has been making Do228 for 3 decade now and ALH for almost 1.5 decade , same goes for AJT thats been under work since more than a decade.

The Tejas and MKI are still late entrant in manf for HAL and still have lower import content then the rest.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prasad » 20 Apr 2017 00:17

fanne wrote:I hope we learn LO tech in this

We're doing RCS testing on a metal model per latest news.

That version doesn't look very different from this https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 0871055363

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2017 01:04

They will soon send models and actual planes in LCA's case to Orange.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2017 01:06

Indranil wrote:They will soon send models and actual planes in LCA's case to Orange.


Orange?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2017 01:57

It is RCI's Outdoor RCS Test Facility at Dundigal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 20 Apr 2017 14:48

Indranil wrote:They will soon send models and actual planes in LCA's case to Orange.

LCA TD2 is already doing it..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 20 Apr 2017 17:52

Indranil wrote:It is RCI's Outdoor RCS Test Facility at Dundigal.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/orange-to ... 10653.html

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/ind ... ility-drdo
Hyderabad Region

RCI

4 Ton Electro Dynamic Shaker
500 Kgs Shock Machine
Acoustic vibration facility
Centrifuge test facility
Centrifuge test facility
Combined Altitude Temperature Humidity
Combined Vibration and Climatic Test System
Electro dynamic vibration test facility (16 ton )
Electro dynamic vibration test facility (7 ton)
EMI-EMC & EMP Measurement & Compatibility
Establishment of Radar Seeker Test and Evaluation Facility
Free Fall Drop Test Facility
High altitude chamber 8)
Icing / rain chamber (admin:#likebutton)
Icing Chamber

Kinetic Heating Test Facility
Pendulum Shock Machine
Rapid Temperature Cycling
RCS Measurement Technology
Salt spray chamber
Thermal shock chamber
Transportation test rig
Walk-in-chambers
Walk-in-chambers


DLRL


Automated Radiated Susceptibility Test System (ARSTS)
Automated Emission Data Collection and Measurement System (AEDCMS)
Automated Emi Susceptibility Measurement System (AESMS)
Altitude Low & High Temperature Chamber
Bump Test Machine
Combined Altitude Temperature Humidity (CATH) Chamber
DUST Chamber
Electro-Static Discharge ( ESD ) Test, 25 KV
ESS Chamber
Low and High Temperature Chamber
Low, High Temperature & Humidity Chamber
Modulation domain Analyzer set-up
Noise Figure Analyzer set-up
Rain Chamber :twisted:
Scalar Network Analyzer set-up
Thermal Shock Chamber
Transit Drop Test Machine
Vector Network Analyzer set-up
Vibration- Shock Test System
Vibration Test System

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2017 21:37

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:They will soon send models and actual planes in LCA's case to Orange.

LCA TD2 is already doing it..

Yes. I had hinted about it earlier. They found that the RCS is much much lower than Mig-21.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Zynda » 20 Apr 2017 22:24

In which config Indranil saar? Clean config? Or with carrying tanks + A2G weapons?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 20 Apr 2017 23:16

Indranil wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:LCA TD2 is already doing it..

Yes. I had hinted about it earlier. They found that the RCS is much much lower than Mig-21.


As would be expected, thanks to the difference in their construction- composites vs alloys. But good to get the confirmation. Coupled with SPJ and a Unified EW Suite, should make it difficult to spot and target.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2017 23:39

Zynda wrote:In which config Indranil saar? Clean config? Or with carrying tanks + A2G weapons?

They told me what I can afford to know. I did not seek to know more because it is a burden to know and then keep quiet. They are doing that admirably. I am happy with that.

Kartik, it is more than gains from use of composites.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 21 Apr 2017 01:07

Sahi hai

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby malushahi » 21 Apr 2017 01:25

Indranil wrote:It is RCI's Outdoor RCS Test Facility at Dundigal.

so what goes on at jodhpur if lca testing has moved to dundigal?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 21 Apr 2017 02:37

AFAIK, testing on TD2 actually happened at Jodhpur. I don't know what is happening there now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby malushahi » 21 Apr 2017 02:41

that was my understanding as well (TD2 tested at jodhpur, and not dundigal).

this may give an idea of what may be going on at jodhpur.


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