Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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mody
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by mody »

Air India owns 3 Boeing 777LR aircraft which are not used much and are not the most optimum configuration for the B777s. All other B777s with Air India are the 'ER' version.

It would be worth exploring if the same can be converted as refuelling aircrafts for the IAF. It would be a win-win for everyone. Air India would be able to get rid of unwanted planes and IAF, would be able to get cheap planes. The cost of conversion of the planes would haver to be examined.
If the Boing 767 and Airbus A330 can be used, I don't see by the Boeing 777 cannot be used.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by nam »

That would work, if IAF will consider anything other than new tankers. I cannot to this day understand how IAF prefers to wait for new tankers.

I presume tankers are not a priority, only new fighter jets are.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by SaiK »

Right now the equation still is - Russia doesn't have so we don't have it too. I'm talking about stealth bombers. Thanks to Agni series.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by manjgu »

nam : i think India foresees a shooting match with NaPakis only. to tackle napakis , tankers are not such a priority IMHO. Fighter jets are top priority.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by titash »

Cross-posting from the Tejas thread.

From the horse's mouth:
IAF is investing heavily in Tejas, looking at 12 squadrons of Tejas Mark-2 after first 123 Mark-1A jets," Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said.
http://defencebuzz.org/2018/09/rafale-a ... 43ae9.html

So the Tejas will ultimately see 40 + 80 + 220 = 350 odd jets. This is the final vindication of our scientists and engineers and even our politicos who kept funding going.
8) 8) 8)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Picklu »

Makes it even more important to get out of GE dependency. Even if that means 10% performance shortfall
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by SaiK »

how good is this? some basics compared, but pretty useful (if the data is correct)
https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraf ... it=COMPARE
nam
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by nam »

manjgu wrote:nam : i think India foresees a shooting match with NaPakis only. to tackle napakis , tankers are not such a priority IMHO. Fighter jets are top priority.
Priority of having fighter jets is fine, however I was referring to IAF's habit of waiting for "new" ones, rather than use existing civilian/ 2 hand jets and converted them. Getting everything new is not always the most economical proposition.

Granted there might be question of airframe life, however there is no enthusiasm shown. It becomes even bizarre when IAF laids down requirement for AWACS with tanker role! ( which is a okay requirement , but indicates a bit of desperation)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Lalmohan »

tankers may need significant structural modifications (quite apart from the plumbing, etc.) which might make it uneconomical to convert a standard passenger version
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by JTull »

Anything is better than current situation. Probably only half of Midas are servicable at one time and RFPs/RFQ process is going in circles. I think the Israeli proposal of converting used airframes to tankers should get about a dozen in a very short span of time. In the meantime all 3 services should put their heads together to formulate a 30-40 year plan for their (un)manned fixed wing and heavy heli fleets.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by ks_sachin »

Picklu wrote:Makes it even more important to get out of GE dependency. Even if that means 10% performance shortfall
What does a 10% shortfall in engine performance mean for the aircraft. Are we being a bit glib here?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Philip »

JT, can't we lease out a few tankers? Addimg more IL-78s of the new upgraded version is the most most-effective; but where's the moolah for AWACS/ AEW and the fighters coming from? A lease could be the answer until we can buy new ones.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by abhik »

Starting with a used air frame will knock off some $150-200 from the cost, Israel is already offering such a solution (airbus and boeing may be resistant though). The tanker contract has already been cancelled twice, I hope we take the sensible route instead of indefinitely waiting for chi-chi solution that we wont be able to afford.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Picklu »

ks_sachin wrote:
Picklu wrote:Makes it even more important to get out of GE dependency. Even if that means 10% performance shortfall
What does a 10% shortfall in engine performance mean for the aircraft. Are we being a bit glib here?
Instead of regular 4000 hrs, MTBF of 3600 hrs for one? Instead of 52 and 81 KN, a thrust of 46 - 73 KN for another? Instead of 1.1 ton, 1.2 ton weight ? You get the drift?

For comparison,

1. m53 in our M2k has 54 - 86 KN thrust but weighs more than 1.5 ton
2. Chinese operational engines have MTBD in 2 digit
3. rd33 has 50-81 KN, "stated life expectancy" 4000 hrs and weighs 1 ton while continue to spew black smoke all over

The aircraft, even with the 10% short fall is going to be quite competitive and more importantly, a "dog" is still better than no "cheeta"
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Lalmohan »

not sure... the 10% shortfall could be in all kinds of areas... highly probably that it will be at the margins of performance, where it matters the most
depending on what it is...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Picklu »

Which is better? to have an aircraft with reduced performance or having no aircraft at all since all 324 are down due to sanctions? Even actual sanction won't be required, just threat of it would be enough.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by ArjunPandit »

abhik wrote:Starting with a used air frame will knock off some $150-200 from the cost, Israel is already offering such a solution (airbus and boeing may be resistant though). The tanker contract has already been cancelled twice, I hope we take the sensible route instead of indefinitely waiting for chi-chi solution that we wont be able to afford.
makes sense, but who initiates this process, IAF, MoD or the seller?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Singha »

boeing can convert the 777LR into tanker using much the same tech developed for the 767 pegasus tankers now being built.
but for a small order it wont be cheap. this behemoth tanker would be ideally suited to refuel awacs, NEACP E4, jstars and large bombers....or loiter endlessly in safe zone refueling passing squadrons of planes.

globalsecurity

Both the 777 and 767 commercial jets are assembled at Boeing's plant in Everett, and the tankers also would be built there. Modification work required to turn the base plane into tankers would also be done at the Everett plant on separate tanker-assembly lines. In addition to carrying much more fuel than the KC767, the KC-777 could carry up to 37 cargo pallets, compared with 19 for the 767. The KC-777 also could be converted into a transport for up to 320 passengers, while the 767 could carry only about 200 passengers.

The KC-777 tanker is based on Boeing's new long-range 777-200LR, which entered airline service in 2006. It is the world's longest-range passenger plane. Boeing used the 777-200LR design as the basis for its 777 freighter, which was in development. The development process would take about three years. However, much of the technologies and experiences of creating a tanker from a 767 would be applicable in the case of a KC-777. Also, the commercial freighter version of the 777 had matured, and that also would decrease the developmental risk of converting the 777 to a tanker.

The KC-777 would be 209 feet long with a wingspan of 212 feet, 7 inches. That's the same size as the 777-200LR commercial jet. The KC-777 would be able to carry far more fuel, cargo and passengers than either the KC-767 or the Airbus A330 tanker. The KC-767 offers more operational flexibility, while the KC-777 would be better suited for long-range strategic missions in which more cargo needs to be delivered. The KC-777 would be able to carry more than 350,000 pounds (160,000 kilograms) of fuel and offload more than 220,000 pounds (100,000 kg) of it on a mission of 500 nautical miles (900 kilometers). On the other hand, the KC-767 can lift off with more than 200,000 pounds (90,000 kg) of fuel and offload more than 130,000 pounds (60,000 kg) in a similar mission. The KC-777 would be able to deliver 200 percent more fuel after flying 1,000 nautical miles than older Air Force KC-135s. The KC-777 could carry up to 37 pallets of cargo, compared to the 19 pallets for the KC-767.

Long-range and cargo capacity make the 777 the best tanker option for missions where maximum fuel offload and cargo/passenger capabilities are paramount. The 777 provides extended payload range, strong fuel offload performance and hauling capacity that exceeds 170,000 pounds (77,000 kilograms) of cargo. With its fuel-efficient design, it would excel at supporting global strike and aircraft deployment missions.

The same technology would appear in both a 767 and 777 tanker. The boom operator's station was developed with the boom operator in mind. The station is located near the flight deck and features a third-generation Remote Vision System that provides a 185-degree field of view and offers full control of air refueling. The fly-by-wire boom is fifth-generation; it's compatible with all U.S. Air Force receivers and offers the highest fuel transfer rates available. In addition, wing aerial refueling pod and centerline hose drum technology is all transferable.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by JTull »

Philip wrote:JT, can't we lease out a few tankers? Addimg more IL-78s of the new upgraded version is the most most-effective; but where's the moolah for AWACS/ AEW and the fighters coming from? A lease could be the answer until we can buy new ones.
Midas pods came from Israel so what you're proposing is exactly the same as Israeli offer using pre-owned 767s but with a different airframe. I'd prefer the 767 route as we're less likely to run into issues with spares. Leasing is a difficult proposition if the airframe owner in Russia has to source the pods from Israel first. It will require very long-term lease to offset upfront costs, negating any gains. Besides, I doubt Russians will guarantee 80+% availability rates which a lease would entail.
abhik wrote:Starting with a used air frame will knock off some $150-200 from the cost, Israel is already offering such a solution (airbus and boeing may be resistant though). The tanker contract has already been cancelled twice, I hope we take the sensible route instead of indefinitely waiting for chi-chi solution that we wont be able to afford.
Airbus wouldn't mind as they are not having any luck anyway. Once IAF gets some used airframes, they are likely to continue down that route (unless it's IL-76/78) 8) .
Boeing is attempting to block Israeli offer as they feel they've better chance in a direct Govt to Govt deal.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Cain Marko »

Apologies if this was posted before, but this is crazy :shock:
HQ always thought BR was addictive...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Apologies if this was posted before, but this is crazy :shock:
HQ always thought BR was addictive...
Most HQ - mine included - feel the same. Perhaps they might start a forum of their own :lol:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Singha »

We should go for the kc46 767 new build tankers if we want new
In parallel pickup some 10/100 older 767 airframes and get them
Converted

The old days of 45 min sorties are long gone
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Singha »

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/iaf-chi ... ome-livetv

social media driven sleep deprivation caused crash in 2013
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Singha »

this video proves the Mi17v is better than SH60 for roping and egress - note how many paras are exiting at same time.

https://www.facebook.com/shatrujeet009/ ... 59455/?t=6
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Philip »

The MI-8/17 is a classic.It has proven itself over decades and was the most sought after med. multi-role helo in the Afghan conflict used by NATO forces.That we operate over 150 of the type is a testament to its superb qualities.Another batch is supposedly being asked for.
My only angst on this issue is why with so many inducted we never thought of setting up assemby/ indigenisation of the type in India, when we've manufactured over a thousand of Ru aircraft. Opportunity missed.
Last edited by Philip on 15 Sep 2018 17:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Viv S »

Singha wrote:this video proves the Mi17v is better than SH60 for roping and egress - note how many paras are exiting at same time.
The Mi-17 is a different class of rotorcraft being about 50% larger. It’s American analogue would be the S-92.

The Russian analogue to the SH-60 on the other hand is the Ka-27.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Katare »

HAL orderbook as of March 2018
Su MKI -25
LCA -32
Do- 228 -16
ALH-73
Cheetal- 6
Chetak - 8

following major programmes to be liquidated.
• Su-30 MKI for Indian Air Force (25 Nos).
• Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operation Clearance (12 Nos) and Final Operation Clearance for Indian Air Force (20 Nos).
• Dornier Do-228 aircraft for Indian Navy (12 Nos) and for Indian Air Force (4 Nos).
• Advanced Light Helicopters for Indian Navy (16 Nos) and Indian Coast Guard (16 Nos). New order for 41 Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) Dhruv received from the Indian Army (40 Nos) and Indian Navy (1 No) in August, 2017.
• Cheetal Helicopter for Indian Air Force (10 Nos) and Indian Army (6 Nos).
• An order for 8 Chetak Helicopters received from Indian Navy in August, 2017.
• AL-31 FP Engines (used in Su-30 MKI Aircraft) to Indian Air Force.
• ROH task for aircraft /helicopter/engines for one year.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Philip »

NS on HAL.Hindu report.

HAL not part of original deal with Dassault for the Rafale during UPA time.Nothing signed, nothing lost ( by HAL).
Making every effort to increase Tejas production to 16/yr., , more with the MK-1A and upto the AMCA on the drawing board.
Sitting with the MOD, HAL, IAF-to see where diffetences can be ironed out." A lot of detailing to be done"Making sure that the IAF and HAL sit together...not seen as adversaries.., to help each other.
as user and manufacturer.." :mrgreen:

Ru MKIs cheaper than HAL built ones, " more help needed for HAL- capacity, skill cutting down on overheads- we are attending to all this".

Inter-gov. Agreement with France.Our deal better than that of the UPA.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Cybaru »

Singha wrote:this video proves the Mi17v is better than SH60 for roping and egress - note how many paras are exiting at same time.

https://www.facebook.com/shatrujeet009/ ... 59455/?t=6
i think the SH60 will only come for navy and its mostly for ASW/ASuW work. I don't think IAF/IA will buy into that system.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Philip »

The MI-17 is too large for our warships and there is no naval variant .The KA-27/31 legacy bird has been doing yeoman service and is being upgraded.Around 10+ are being upgraded in batches totalling 40 for Ru.The IN is also reportedly upgrading most of our 27/31s.

The KA-52K is a superb heavy attack helo, naval variant but after the Mistral fiasco with the French, Russia has no platforms.The IN should take a close look at this bird for its planned amphibs as Egypt has snapped up the lot along with the Mistrals.

Ideally, the NH-90 would be fine as the workhorse of the fleet, but the AW ( non) scandal torpedoed its chances earlier.Now that the Italian courts say that
no bribes took place, perhaps the NH-90 which is the most widely used medium multi- role naval helo could be looked at again to replace the SKs.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Singha »

the SH60 numbers are far in excess of the NH90
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by brar_w »

Philip wrote:The KA-52K is a superb heavy attack helo, naval variant but after the Mistral fiasco with the French, Russia has no platforms.The IN should take a close look at this bird for its planned amphibs as Egypt has snapped up the lot along with the Mistrals.
Is there a stated requirement for a heavy attack helo in the maritime context or is it just what you wish?

If it is the former, then the recent announced AH-64 upgrades (which will start rolling in beginning 2020 or so), specifically those aimed at adding maritime capability will be relevant given that the other two services would be Apache users in the near term.

If it is the latter, then I guess we can lay out the number of countries that use each heavy attack helo and compare.

Image
Last edited by brar_w on 02 Oct 2018 09:33, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Philip »

Most widely used ,nation wise.15 to 16 nations operate it compared to 14 for the US bird. Even Oz ( and NZ) operate NHs, called the MRH-90 I think.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ NH 90 is a dumpster fire of a project.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Philip »

Yeh, why 15 nations operate it.They're all suckers.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Thakur_B »

Philip wrote:Yeh, why 15 nations operate it.They're all suckers.
Australia, Netherlands, Norway, all faced several problems with NH90. It's rather well documented.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by JTull »

Instead of importing, let's look at marine version of LCH!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Singha »

Probably the usmc has more helis than these 15 users combined and usn need not enter the fray
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Vips »

Katare wrote:HAL orderbook as of March 2018
Su MKI -25
LCA -32
Do- 228 -16
ALH-73
Cheetal- 6
Chetak - 8

following major programmes to be liquidated.
• Su-30 MKI for Indian Air Force (25 Nos).
• Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operation Clearance (12 Nos) and Final Operation Clearance for Indian Air Force (20 Nos).
• Dornier Do-228 aircraft for Indian Navy (12 Nos) and for Indian Air Force (4 Nos).
• Advanced Light Helicopters for Indian Navy (16 Nos) and Indian Coast Guard (16 Nos). New order for 41 Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) Dhruv received from the Indian Army (40 Nos) and Indian Navy (1 No) in August, 2017.
• Cheetal Helicopter for Indian Air Force (10 Nos) and Indian Army (6 Nos).
• An order for 8 Chetak Helicopters received from Indian Navy in August, 2017.
• AL-31 FP Engines (used in Su-30 MKI Aircraft) to Indian Air Force.
• ROH task for aircraft /helicopter/engines for one year.
HAL has delivered just one SU30 and LCA each to IAF in the last 6 months. Time to privatize it before it becomes another non performing PSU Monster.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Post by Katare »

Hatchet job! HAL has huge problems that no one can deny but the article has its facts mixed up. MKI line has been stable for years now.

HAL as of March 2018 have delivered 197 MKIs to IAF (additional 50 came from Russia), of the 25 remaing 12 would be delivered this year, 2 already delivered and 10 more to come in next 6 months. MKI line would come to close on March 2019 on schedule.

Original contract was for 140 to be delivered by 2017, HAL delivered 185 MKI by March 2017. The supplementary purchase were emergency measures so aircrafts were boyght in SKD and CKDs from Russia.

Some reports have claimed that HAL has focused on Russian kits from last two contracts to meet the production numbers but its struggling to make aircraft from raw material stage in 4th phase.

I think IAF wanted numbers so they may have asked for it, i.e. prioritize deliveries from last two contract over the initial one.
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