Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Aug 2017 23:59

Don't understand, what does it mean shiv?

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 25 Aug 2017 00:07

Hawk-i - how would it fare against SAM and AA guns?
Can it be a good plane for Army Aviation Corps?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 25 Aug 2017 00:52

A Deshmukh wrote:Hawk-i - how would it fare against SAM and AA guns?
Can it be a good plane for Army Aviation Corps?

It is the regular Hawk trainer with avionics upgrade from HAL and not the weaponised attack version

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Aug 2017 00:56

If that is indeed a weaponized version, it will be quite useful for CAS role at the forward edge of battle area.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Aug 2017 08:02

If it going to be weaponised, I hope it gets an armoured titanium and bullet proof cockpit to protect it from 12.7 cailber or Shoulder fired Sam warheards to protect the Pilot, has MAWS and IR Dazzler/ Jammer for Shoulder fired SAM's.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Aug 2017 08:10

Kakarat wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote:Hawk-i - how would it fare against SAM and AA guns?
Can it be a good plane for Army Aviation Corps?
It is the regular Hawk trainer with avionics upgrade from HAL and not the weaponised attack version

All Hawks have weapons capability - even existing ones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAVkkZmhUc4

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2017 08:17

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr

IAF asks for follow on 36 rafales. seems ambala and hashimara can house 2 sqdns each

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 26 Aug 2017 20:42

If hashimara can accomodate 2 squadrons, why not base the on order 36 in only hashimara replacing the 2 mig 27 squadrons there.
For a measly order of 2 sq, 2 bases is 2 many.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 26 Aug 2017 23:25

HAL converts jet trainer aircraft into combat-ready Hawk-I

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 26 Aug 2017 23:38

Singha wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr

IAF asks for follow on 36 rafales. seems ambala and hashimara can house 2 sqdns each

Excellent. I was waiting for this.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Aug 2017 14:56

Weird stuff. One month ago we had heard nothing. Now suddenly we hear
1. LCH series production
2. Astra series production
3. Mysterious appearance of "combat capable" "Hawk-i"

nits · Post by **nits** » 28 Aug 2017 15:17

A Deshmukh wrote:Hawk-i - how would it fare against SAM and AA guns?
Can it be a good plane for Army Aviation Corps?

It should be good for defensive roles along with LCA's

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Aug 2017 16:12

shiv wrote:Weird stuff. One month ago we had heard nothing. Now suddenly we hear
1. LCH series production
2. Astra series production
3. Mysterious appearance of "combat capable" "Hawk-i"

Start of Full-fledged ATAGs trials by IA when nothing much of known about about its status till now and leaks of INS Aridhaman taking to the water anytime( though not related to IAF)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Aug 2017 16:34

^^Maybe a case of talk less show more?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2017 17:08

Advanced Hawk was earlier dumped becos of the RR bribing scandal. For the IA's AAC,there are sev. turboprops which many nations are finding very cost-effective for close support,COIN,etc.

BAE claims the Advanced Hawk has worldwide demand and can carry 3,000 kilograms of weapons including air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, laser designation pods and precision-guided munitions.

How a sudden turn around has taken place is anyone's guess.Incidentally,every attempt by the UK's Fraud Off. reg. defence deals involving BAe has been scotched "in the national interest".These in particular relate to ME deals esp. those with the Saudis.

Notoriou alleged arms dealer Sudhir Choudrie is supposed to have benefited with hundreds of millions of $$ from Russian and British cos.for deals with India.

The Hindu was given access to confidential details, including a key banking document, showing massive payments into accounts of companies run by the Choudhrie family.

Stunning details of payments of millions of dollars by several foreign defence companies to an alleged Indian arms dealer, family have emerged in secret documents accessed by the BBC and The Guardian, and shared with The Hindu.

‘Foreign defence companies paid huge bribes to alleged Indian arms dealer’
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/% ... 086789.ece
Among the key details are remittance of almost €100 million (approx Rs. 730 crore) in just 12 months by Russian arms firms into accounts of companies controlled by Sudhir Choudhrie, his family and close associates; and about £10 million paid by British company Rolls-Royce to firms linked to him.

Mr. Choudhrie’s lawyers told the BBC that the former Delhi resident, who now lives in London, has “never paid bribes to government officials or acted as an illegal middleman in defence deals.”

The Hindu was given access to confidential details, including a key banking document of October 2, 2008 showing the massive payments into various accounts controlled by companies run by the Choudhrie family.

Mr. Choudhrie has been investigated by the CBI and Enforcement Directorate in various arms deals in the past. Ever since his name emerged in the Tehelka tapes, Mr. Choudhrie and his family have been living in London. He figures in the CBI’s confidential list of ‘Undesirable Contact Men’, who are suspected of manipulating government contracts.

The BBC’s Panorama, the current affairs investigative programme, has claimed that Rolls-Royce made secret payments of around £10 million to an unregistered Indian agent. Rolls-Royce says it has zero tolerance of bribery and corruption. “Panorama has learned Rolls-Royce paid the money to companies linked to arms dealer Sudhir Choudhrie,” the report says.

In 2014, Mr. Choudhrie and his son Bhanu were arrested as part of the U.K.’s Serious Fraud Investigation Office inquiry into Rolls-Royce. Both were released without charge.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Aug 2017 17:37

shiv wrote:Weird stuff. One month ago we had heard nothing. Now suddenly we hear
1. LCH series production
2. Astra series production
3. Mysterious appearance of "combat capable" "Hawk-i"

Just the hard work of many people bearing fruit.

HAL learnt from ALH, so the development to production curve for LCH was shorter & smoother.

DRDO & BDL learnt from Akash, so the development to production curve for Astra was shorter & smoother.

I'm hoping they better the record for LUH & QRSAM.

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Aug 2017 19:20

Does the Hawk-i aka combat hawk have radar ? I couldn't find any info of real radar, only simulated one. So, no radar, no IRST - its sensor suite seems lighter than that of LCH. And going by the articles, hawk-i is less of combat hawk and more of a combat-simulator hawk.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Aug 2017 22:23

shiv wrote:Weird stuff. One month ago we had heard nothing. Now suddenly we hear
1. LCH series production
2. Astra series production
3. Mysterious appearance of "combat capable" "Hawk-i"

LCH production starting was reported a while ago, that HAL had started production of 5 LSP. Even before the CCS cleared order of 15. Was discussed on Heli thread.

Hawk-i was revealed in Aero India this year. I have seen it flying couple of time way back few months ago. Though I dont remember if they said its "combat capable". It was said to be "upgraded own their own" by HAL. So whats new in it now..?

Astra production is indeed a pleasant surprise though.

This is more like long pending "ribben-cutting" ceremonies stacked together, perhaps because we dont havw a dedicated RM who can spare enough time to do these things on time.

PS - Hawk i was even before Aero India. In Jan this year.
http://www.hal-india.com/HAL%20Rolls%20 ... 17/ND__184

HAL Starts Limited Series Production Of Light Combat Helicopters
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17450/ ... aRL_p_hVoM

Some other news items also there from early 2017.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Aug 2017 01:00

shiv wrote:Weird stuff. One month ago we had heard nothing. Now suddenly we hear
1. LCH series production
2. Astra series production
3. Mysterious appearance of "combat capable" "Hawk-i"

Go on tell me why we suddenly made so much progress or were things kept under wraps for a reason.
Honestly I am not egging you on or trolling you I genuinely had the same thoughts too.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Aug 2017 06:31

4. Launch of "completely outfitted Aridhaman" by Sept 5
5. Commissioning of two scorpenes this year.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2017 07:06

Khalsa wrote:
shiv wrote:Weird stuff. One month ago we had heard nothing. Now suddenly we hear
1. LCH series production
2. Astra series production
3. Mysterious appearance of "combat capable" "Hawk-i"
Go on tell me why we suddenly made so much progress or were things kept under wraps for a reason.
Honestly I am not egging you on or trolling you I genuinely had the same thoughts too.

I have no inside knowledge. I am puzzled and I have speculated in an earlier post that there may have been a governmental order to talk less and show rejults

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2017 07:10

JayS wrote:
Hawk-i was revealed in Aero India this year. I have seen it flying couple of time way back few months ago. Though I dont remember if they said its "combat capable". It was said to be "upgraded own their own" by HAL. So whats new in it now..?

What is new is the lack of widespread publicity of the type that HAL-BAe Combat Hawk got. This may be an indicator of how much money was paid to the media.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2017 07:12

srin wrote:Does the Hawk-i aka combat hawk have radar ? I couldn't find any info of real radar, only simulated one. So, no radar, no IRST - its sensor suite seems lighter than that of LCH. And going by the articles, hawk-i is less of combat hawk and more of a combat-simulator hawk.

IRST and radar (other than AESA) are more for interception. A Litening or similar pylon mounted pod can be used in the attack role. If the wiring exists for that - then that would be a possibility

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Aug 2017 07:27

shiv wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
Go on tell me why we suddenly made so much progress or were things kept under wraps for a reason.
Honestly I am not egging you on or trolling you I genuinely had the same thoughts too.
I have no inside knowledge. I am puzzled and I have speculated in an earlier post that there may have been a governmental order to talk less and show rejults

Fair enough.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Aug 2017 07:50

Astra production is likely the LSP I posted about earlier. Glad to be corrected if it is series production but the low key event (to my mind) is LSP.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Aug 2017 07:53

shiv wrote:^^Maybe a case of talk less show more?

This too is correct.

I am (personally) happy to note DRDO (for example) development programs are mentioned soberly in their in-house newsletters and not tom tommed overenthusiastically with crazy deadlines to the lay press, setting them up for opprobrium when the unrealistic aims cannot be met overnight.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2017 08:22

Karan M wrote: not tom tommed overenthusiastically with crazy deadlines to the lay press, setting them up for opprobrium when the unrealistic aims cannot be met overnight.

This has been the bane of defence production-media interaction.

On an OT note - I think the "awareness" in India that there is active public interest in military affairs has dawned on the media only in the last 10 years or so. It has been even slower among DPSUs and armed forces.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Aug 2017 15:32

Vivek K wrote:4. Launch of "completely outfitted Aridhaman" by Sept 5
5. Commissioning of two scorpenes this year.

Guess you guys are reading too much into it. I don't see any flurry of sudden and unexpected events. Like the other 2 out of 3, these two are also in line with ongoing timelines.

Its a bad habit in India to keep things on hold until some minister finds time to "inaugurate" it. Looks like Jet-Lee found time after a long while to come down to south to "inaugurate" bunch of things in hurried manner.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Aug 2017 15:35

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
Hawk-i was revealed in Aero India this year. I have seen it flying couple of time way back few months ago. Though I dont remember if they said its "combat capable". It was said to be "upgraded own their own" by HAL. So whats new in it now..?

What is new is the lack of widespread publicity of the type that HAL-BAe Combat Hawk got. This may be an indicator of how much money was paid to the media.

Again this is not new, is it..? Desi products have always been under-rated/under-reported (unless they had some issue) while any thing related to forin maal is highly publicised.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 02 Sep 2017 14:34

JayS wrote:
Vivek K wrote:4. Launch of "completely outfitted Aridhaman" by Sept 5
5. Commissioning of two scorpenes this year.
Guess you guys are reading too much into it. I don't see any flurry of sudden and unexpected events. Like the other 2 out of 3, these two are also in line with ongoing timelines.

Its a bad habit in India to keep things on hold until some minister finds time to "inaugurate" it. Looks like Jet-Lee found time after a long while to come down to south to "inaugurate" bunch of things in hurried manner.

Correct.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 02 Sep 2017 20:58

Critical trials for desi trainer soon, HAL looks to start production in December

Spin and recovery trials planned by October; crucial meeting with IAF after that.

The homegrown basic trainer aircraft, which undertook its first flight last year is to be used for the first stage training for all flying cadets of the three services with the defence ministry committed to order at least 70 planes. The additional order of 38 aircraft (originally for Pilatus) is also likely to go for the HTT 40.

https://theprint.in/2017/09/01/critical ... -december/

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 03 Sep 2017 11:55

ashishvikas wrote:Critical trials for desi trainer soon, HAL looks to start production in December
The additional order of 38 aircraft (originally for Pilatus) is also likely to go for the HTT 40.

https://theprint.in/2017/09/01/critical ... -december/

i like the sound of that order swap

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2017 06:40

I think its essential that irrespective of Uttam, the IAF tasks the LRDE guys to come up with a Su-30 sized AESA FCR. One, it provides crucial fallback to Uttam irrespective of Mk2. Also, it gives us a fighter radar compatible with all our indigenous munitions and electronics we are putting on the Su-30. We should go back to the Russians only for reliability improvements to the FCS, hydraulics and new engines. Rest, do inhouse.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 Oct 2017 21:40

Don't we need Russian help for mating (sorry I do not know the correct word for this) of Desi Radar with Rusi weapons??

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2017 22:13

We have integrated R73 on Tejas without Russian help. It bears thinking we can do likewise with most other Russian weapons, which are either obsolete or oftem don't work.
Kh-31s, replaced by NGARM
AA-12- replaced by Astra, in the meantime IAF has stocked up on AA-10 variants.
LGBs - IAF prefers Griffin and Paveway and soon, our own designs
Long range missiles - Kh-59, likely limited stocks, Brahmos, we are indigenizing the seeker and doing the integration work ourselves
Kh-25 series are the only ones left.
Rest, Spice, SAAW, etc are all locally integrated.
R-73E, will also likely be replaced soon by a newer missile provided IAF gets a good one.
Sensor pods - Litening G4, Elta EL/M-2060. Again, nothing Russian.
With a 1553 databus, indian developed pylon interfaces, and a mission computer running indian software, all that is required from the radar is targeting information. The rest of the stuff is via MC only and even displays are indigenized.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Oct 2017 08:41

Riddle me this:

Hindustan Aeronautics has dedicated aircraft units are Nasik,Koraput and Korwa for Russian imports. Why on earth should HAL be interested in "Make in India" if these units are at risk of closure and HAL becomes pancharatna from navaratna?

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/924835370927194112

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Oct 2017 09:43

shiv wrote:Riddle me this:

Hindustan Aeronautics has dedicated aircraft units are Nasik,Koraput and Korwa for Russian imports. Why on earth should HAL be interested in "Make in India" if these units are at risk of closure and HAL becomes pancharatna from navaratna?

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/924835370927194112

A plant can always be repurposed for produce new items. So no issues with plants producing domestic or imported products.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Oct 2017 10:36

Pratyush wrote:
shiv wrote:Riddle me this:

Hindustan Aeronautics has dedicated aircraft units are Nasik,Koraput and Korwa for Russian imports. Why on earth should HAL be interested in "Make in India" if these units are at risk of closure and HAL becomes pancharatna from navaratna?

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/924835370927194112

A plant can always be repurposed for produce new items. So no issues with plants producing domestic or imported products.

Here is something I do not know. The reason for having separate dedicated "Russian equipment only" factories may have something to do with cold war secrecy and not wanting Russian stuff built in factories that were building British stuff (Gnat). Was some kind of agreement signed with the Russians that the units will be kept that way.

We will have Russian stuff flying for at least 40 more years if not more. Those factories may continue overhauling and keep working at lowered efficiency because of that - employing drivers, sweepers, etc while manufacturing is zero. Even USSR died but our PSUs?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Oct 2017 10:45

The thing is that a plant doesn't produce all the items required for making a plane in house. It usually outsources it to its suppliers.

The suppliers can keep on producing the spare parts needed to make the planes fly safely.

The plant can move on to different products.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Oct 2017 12:11

From various sources,Hawk-I appears to be good low-cost ground attack/COIN bird that could fulfill the req, of a fighter to support the ground offensive for the IA.Being slower,it would enable pilots to be able to assess the ground situ better than faster jets.It would also be able to deliver PGMs outside SAM range.Examples of other similar fighters being examined for the same role incl. Super Tucanos by the US. Though we were perhaps the last country to acquire the Hawk (after two decades of evaluation and selection by the AM La Fontaine committee!),it appears that it has been a success both in its role as an AJT plus being built in India by HAL.More Hawk trainer orders have been placed for the IAF and IN.Acquiring a few sqds. of the armed Hawk-I would resolve the problem that often crops up ,raised by the IA about timely air support for its ground ops.The other aircraft that can also assist is the Jag.