Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 24 May 2018 07:13

Bart S wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
Cherry picking works both ways. Yes there are a number of bad deals, but there have been a number of good ones too. The point is that India needs quantity, and Russian hardware provides this best until desi products start coming up on numbers


No, it doesn't. We are a customer, and a perfect customer at that - we paid hard earned cash for everything they sold us, we paid on time without tantrums, and did not abuse their IP like the Chinese. We have a right to demand quality and satisfaction across the board. That they delivered some weapon systems that met our expectations is not an excuse to pass off (often knowingly and in bad faith) substandard stuff in other areas or rip us off.

It's Customer Service 101

It's like if you go to a restaurant and order butter chicken, dal and roti, and the butter chicken gives you food poisoning due to which you miss work for a few days and spend 3x as much in medicines. You have every right to complain, and the resteraunt cannot say that you are cherry picking because 1> the food is cheaper than a 5 star restaurant, 2> the roti and dal were not contaminated, hence they can cherry pick too and 3> some other customer in some other restaurant also got food poisoning.

The sad thing with all this defensive argument by fanboys of vendor countries is that (assuming that they are Indian), it's like a family member of the person who got food poisoning, arguing in favour of the restaurant! This is not an argument for argument's sake like fanboys discussing Playstation vs Xbox, rather real lives and national security is at stake. Indian interests matter, period - to hell with Russia, America or anyone else.

Cain Marko wrote:The point is that India needs quantity, and Russian hardware provides this best until desi products start coming up on numbers


Again, you are passing off your opinion as fact. The IAF (the party with real skin in the game) certainly does not seem to think so, otherwise they would be lining up to buy 'cheap' Russian planes without considering the quality.

OTOH, off topic, but if one was talking about relatively simple systems that are hard to mess up like small arms and RPG/RPO type systems, Russia does present an attractive option, with decent quality and good prices.


Customer service. Nice one. What customer service did India get on the sea Kings? What customer service will India get if caatsa goes through? Simply rpg, small arms type of systems these were not. How much did India pay for French customer service?

What I said is not an opinion, it is obvious to anyone with out blinkers. India has never been able to afford French or British systems in large quantities. The iaf understandably pushes for their finished products considering their over reliance on Russian gear. But irrespective of IAFs desires, the country can only afford what it can. Hence an mrca deal for 126 Fighters was reduced to a mere 36.

Seriously, how hard is this to understand?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bart S » 24 May 2018 10:44

Cain Marko wrote:
Bart S wrote:It's Customer Service 101

It's like if you go to a restaurant and order butter chicken, dal and roti, and the butter chicken gives you food poisoning due to which you miss work for a few days and spend 3x as much in medicines. You have every right to complain, and the resteraunt cannot say that you are cherry picking because 1> the food is cheaper than a 5 star restaurant, 2> the roti and dal were not contaminated, hence they can cherry pick too and 3> some other customer in some other restaurant also got food poisoning.

The sad thing with all this defensive argument by fanboys of vendor countries is that (assuming that they are Indian), it's like a family member of the person who got food poisoning, arguing in favour of the restaurant! This is not an argument for argument's sake like fanboys discussing Playstation vs Xbox, rather real lives and national security is at stake. Indian interests matter, period - to hell with Russia, America or anyone else.


Customer service. Nice one. What customer service did India get on the sea Kings? What customer service will India get if caatsa goes through? Simply rpg, small arms type of systems these were not. How much did India pay for French customer service?


LOL, your argument fits nicely into the analogy I gave.

Cain Marko wrote:But irrespective of IAFs desires, the country can only afford what it can.


So you know the country's interests better than the IAF, and the country's interest lies in buying all things Russian. Nice.

You can continue coming up with convoluted excuses to justify anything Russian but most people in the country, including the ones that matter, aren't buying those (excuses, or products) anymore. I am done arguing on this, it is just a waste of time.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 24 May 2018 11:12

IMHO, it seems like a case of "my bias is better than your bias" syndrome. Please compare the size of the defense imports of India from and with Russia and you will realize that a potential buy of a few 100 aircrafts is not an indication.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 24 May 2018 11:47

OK folks, looks like now you guys have run out of proper arguments or more info supporting your arguments. Rhetoric does not add any value anymore. So kindly stop there. Restaurants have no place in Indian Mil Aviation thread unless they are flying restaurants.. :wink:


The only real cheap fighter today available for India is LCA. Period.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Pratyush » 24 May 2018 12:03

JayS wrote:

The only real cheap fighter today available for India is LCA. Period.



Plus 10008.

It is that present and the path to the future. Regadless of what anyone says about any imported fighter.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 24 May 2018 15:02

After Rafale splurge, a sensible Jaguar upgrade (a two-part report)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/05/a ... aguar.html

IAF pilots joke that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that the fighter only gets airborne because the earth is round – and its curvature makes the ground drop away beneath the moving aircraft. :shock:

With the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines output (25 kiloNewtons of dry thrust and 37.5 kN with afterburners) being replaced by the F-125IN (27.7 kN of dry thrust and 43.8kN with afterburners), Jaguar pilots believe they would have the last laugh.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 24 May 2018 15:49

the adour811 engines too came after we begged RR for it, since the deal was signed for even weaker 804 engines. this is my recollection from a old "sunday" magazine in early 80s. most of you were not even born then i guess, or infants.

the japan F1 no doubt copied a lot from the jaguar look and has twin adours

Adour Mk 801 - For Mitsubishi F-1 & T-2 (JASDF)
TF40-IHI-801A - Licence-built version of Mk 801 by Ishikawajima-Harima for Mitsubishi F-1 & T-2 (JASDF)
Adour Mk 804 - Licence-built by HAL for Indian Air Force phase 2 Jaguars
Adour Mk 811 - Licence-built by HAL for Indian Air Force phase 3 to 6 Jaguars; rated at 8400 lbs of maximum thrust.[1] BAe-built Jaguars were initially powered with two Adour 804E turbofans.
Adour Mk 821 - Engine upgrade of Mk804 and Mk811 engines, currently under development, for Indian Air Force Jaguar aircraft. :-?

its a small engine and more suited to light attack a/c and trainers than a heavily loaded strike bird.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 24 May 2018 21:50

Jags were not just underpowered for its role but also experienced 20-25% derating during intense summer season , the Honeywell engine is just marginally better than adour in thrust in mil power and ab mode.

Ideally Jags should have been retired the same time 27 did and should be replaced by mki

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 25 May 2018 01:26

The Ajai Shukla story says that Honeywell will take 3 years to start supplying the new engines. So, given our procurement process, these refurbished Jags will not join before 2022.

Is the IAF confident that these re-engined Jags will be useful for them for 10-20 years after 2022?

If so, then they might as well order HAL to start producing another 100 new Jaguar airframes (since they have the full production knowhow for the Jags) with the new engines and avionics. Then we will have a significant strike force of 180 Jags with the new engines and avionics through the 2020s and 2030s. And the price will be much lower than any new gen aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nachiket » 25 May 2018 01:43

Austin wrote:Jags were not just underpowered for its role but also experienced 20-25% derating during intense summer season , the Honeywell engine is just marginally better than adour in thrust in mil power and ab mode.

If Ajai Shukla's numbers are correct, the combined wet-thrust of both engines together will increase from 75kN (for the Adours) to 87.6kN for the Honeywell engines. That is a >16% increase. Not marginal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 25 May 2018 01:55

F125IN is 600pounds lighter than Mk821. And it has FADEC.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Khalsa » 25 May 2018 02:37

Austin wrote:After Rafale splurge, a sensible Jaguar upgrade (a two-part report)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/05/a ... aguar.html

IAF pilots joke that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that the fighter only gets airborne because the earth is round – and its curvature makes the ground drop away beneath the moving aircraft. :shock:


That joke has been used for many aircrafts.

Infact, I have heard that joke before in the Officers Mess in Leh myself, where the IL-76 would struggle to take off with summer time load.
And you could tell that they struggled by just observing the take offs. Once it got so bad, an Il-76 had to stay overnight in Leh because it was a massive exercise to remove the payload i.e. it was not men but equipment that was secured inside the a/c.

In leh, the problems were twofold.
>>Rarified High Altitude Air that could not provide enough lift as compared to an IL-76 taking off in Chandigarh.
>>Summer time hot air degrading engine performance.

Here is an example of an Il-76 doing it in hot australia at near sea level.



best conditions for any jet engine are the dry winter months.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 25 May 2018 03:43

Austin wrote:After Rafale splurge, a sensible Jaguar upgrade (a two-part report)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/05/a ... aguar.html


Excellent! Excellent! Excellent! Common sense has prevailed!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 25 May 2018 04:53

Finally "Common Sense" made his arrival! Kudos to Ms. NS who is making a positive effect on the role as DM.If this approach is taken across the board for other programmes, it augurs v.well for the future.Jag upgrades have been delayed for too long , a v.cost effective way in which to keep both numbers and capability healthy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 25 May 2018 04:58

Indranil wrote:
Austin wrote:After Rafale splurge, a sensible Jaguar upgrade (a two-part report)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2018/05/a ... aguar.html


Excellent! Excellent! Excellent! Common sense has prevailed!

I am gonna cry :cry: Tears of Happiness. FINALLY!!!!

Thank you Defence Minister Sitharaman for doing this. THANK YOU!!! The best line from the above article is this....

That leaves 80 Jaguars, whose service lives would be extended to 2035-40 with new engines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 25 May 2018 10:51

nachiket wrote:
Austin wrote:Jags were not just underpowered for its role but also experienced 20-25% derating during intense summer season , the Honeywell engine is just marginally better than adour in thrust in mil power and ab mode.

If Ajai Shukla's numbers are correct, the combined wet-thrust of both engines together will increase from 75kN (for the Adours) to 87.6kN for the Honeywell engines. That is a >16% increase. Not marginal.


Considering it was underpowered for Indian Hot and High condition even during normal days , The honeywell engine should be a good relief.

But Jags are relics of bygone era it is too specialised aircraft and adding new engine or radar wont solve its inherent issue of it being a DPSA , being a DPSA makes it vulnerable to Ack Ack more than other types. In retrospect a French F-1 buy would have been better as multirole fighter.

If they can replace Jags 1:1 with MKI it would be much better.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 May 2018 11:56

>> order HAL to start producing another 100 new Jaguar airframes

Cheen is going to be supplying TSP with integrated AD nets apart from having dense AD itself. so lo-lo-lo treetop level is increasingly unviable against hard targets....still viable against field formations. Tejas is more survivable once you leave the treetops. better to build 100 more Tejas.

perhaps the IAF agrees with that and has mandated DPSA style kit for the Mk1A :shock:

TSP has inducted a few LY8 already if not the s300ski HQ9

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 25 May 2018 12:45

Brits lost a lot of Tornado during GW during Lo Lo Flight due to Ack Ack and missiles , Its the most risky mission to do and pilots needs balls of steel.

Todays environment is not the same at 80's with PA/PAF fielding a range of new weapons and radars and hence it a lot more riskier for JAgs to fly Lo Lo then it was for 80s' , Yes Tejas would be a good substitute.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 25 May 2018 15:22

Nirbhay can do the job of Jag lo-lo missions. Cost of cruise missiles is much lower than cost of aircrafts wrt manufacturing, maintenance, training, etc. Not to mention precious lives of our pilots.
Last edited by JTull on 25 May 2018 17:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srin » 25 May 2018 15:24

Austin wrote:Brits lost a lot of Tornado during GW during Lo Lo Flight due to Ack Ack and missiles , Its the most risky mission to do and pilots needs balls of steel.

Todays environment is not the same at 80's with PA/PAF fielding a range of new weapons and radars and hence it a lot more riskier for JAgs to fly Lo Lo then it was for 80s' , Yes Tejas would be a good substitute.


I don't understand - the more the radars and SAMs, the more the need to fly very low and very fast to escape detection (or fly very very high, beyond the SAM envelope) or break lock with ground clutter. Anything in between is happy altitude for SAMs.

Doesn't matter if it is Jaguar or Tejas. Even if Tejas has to conduct a DPSA mission, it will have to do a low level penetration (that's why IAF is asking for better radio altimeter for Tejas Mk1a) anyway.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srin » 25 May 2018 15:31

JTull wrote:Nirbhay can do the job of Jag lo-lo missions. Cost of cruise missiles is much lower than cost of aircrafts wrt manufacturing, maintenance, training, etc. Not to mention previous lives of our pilots.


Agree, that would be perfect. We just need Nirbhay proven ASAP and atleast a production run of a few hundreds a year.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 May 2018 16:08

Medium or high alt ingress with sead and decoy support followed by saaw garudamma type release from 40,000 feet is the new play in town. You dont see israelis flying at treetop level in syria

Nobody said you had to drop the bomb by overflying the target

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 25 May 2018 19:37

JTull wrote:Nirbhay can do the job of Jag lo-lo missions. Cost of cruise missiles is much lower than cost of aircrafts wrt manufacturing, maintenance, training, etc. Not to mention precious lives of our pilots.


+1.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 May 2018 19:50

Nobody including khan chacha has enough cruise missiles to throw in lieu of tactical aviation in a large scale war

Cruise missiles have never been cheap their complex nav systems and turbofan engines are not cheap

Cheap are the crude 5km range iram and hezbollah qassem rockets

The mighty golan 1000 iram lobs a 500kg round maybe 5km max

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 25 May 2018 21:11

srin wrote:I don't understand - the more the radars and SAMs, the more the need to fly very low and very fast to escape detection (or fly very very high, beyond the SAM envelope) or break lock with ground clutter. Anything in between is happy altitude for SAMs.

Doesn't matter if it is Jaguar or Tejas. Even if Tejas has to conduct a DPSA mission, it will have to do a low level penetration (that's why IAF is asking for better radio altimeter for Tejas Mk1a) anyway.


the game has changed. the environment for lo flying attackers has become quite lethal
SEAD is the new game

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby abhik » 25 May 2018 21:15

Doing "Tree top" level flying will render the radar ground functions, Laser designators pods, LGBs etc unusable no?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 25 May 2018 21:25

Singha wrote:Medium or high alt ingress with sead and decoy support followed by saaw garudamma type release from 40,000 feet is the new play in town. You dont see israelis flying at treetop level in syria

Nobody said you had to drop the bomb by overflying the target


Israel didnt flew in contested airspace often and they flew fighters where are 1-2 gen ahead of Jags generation , Jags USP was to fly low fast with accurate navigation and bomb guided by computer for its generation in late 70's it was very advanced and even won Red Flag against F-16 in bombing role.

IF you make Jags fly high then it looses its USP , it is not a manouverable aircraft and SAM or fighter will pounce on it once detected by Radar , Ofcourse with ASRAAM it would be better than Matra but Jags were never degsigned for that role unless ofcourse it has fighter cover all the time in all sorties it does.

Jags will fly in low and fast attack what ever Paki target they are designated for and then drop all the external payload and egress as fast at it can hoping all the while the 29 and M2K cover they have will defend them , IAF practices such missile extensively a Jag pilot mentioed.

But make no mistake that one will take the most hit and DPSA Low Low is the most risky of any mission IAF can fly it is no 1 there second to none and every Jags pilot knows thats hence they have balls of steel to fly that bird.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 25 May 2018 21:27

tornado worked on the principle of ground mapping radar and intertial nav to fly at tree top height. but it is a big beacon that lights up the EM spectrum as well

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nachiket » 25 May 2018 22:27

Even a MKI loaded for strike will need some AtoA loaded MKI's as escorts. All the issues dealing with modern AD systems apply to MKIs and other aircraft in our inventory as much as they apply to the Jaguars. If SEAD is needed there is no reason you cannot use a Jaguar to do it. What you need are the right weapons. Can't rely on MKI's alone for everything considering we are already facing a numbers crunch. Every airworthy asset needs to be utilized to its maximum potential.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 May 2018 22:57

Jags can do cas and interdictor role
It has two meaty guns as well

Its days of hitting airbases are over now that long range gliders and missiles are available

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 25 May 2018 23:47

As per Honeywell’s website Jaguars would get 25% more wet thrust than current engine and take off distance would reduce by 25%.

A few years back Honeywell put togather a presentation comparing both the RR adour and F125 engines. It was very detailed and listed quite a bit of info and analysis of both tech and financial sides.

Basically the savings from better fuel consumption, 4x longer engine overhaul schedule would save inough money to pay for the entire upgrade itself. After that RR dropped out of competition.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 25 May 2018 23:57

What if the re-engined and re-equipped Jaguars are dedicated exclusively for maritime strike role, thus freeing up the MKIs and Rafales for strikes over heavily defended Pakistani and Chinese airspace?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 26 May 2018 01:16

Kakkaji, why do we need 80+ Jaguars for the maritime strike role?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 26 May 2018 02:03

Station half of them in the Andamans and use them to hit enemy shipping in Malacca Straits round the clock.

Station other half on the western seaboard and use them to enforce the blockade on Pakiland.

80+ is not too many for us.

Or maybe it is just my flight of fancy. :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby bijeet » 26 May 2018 04:55

Jags are still vulnerable to CAP aircraft. Maybe it depends on the terrain but I still remember the simulated exercises at lohegaon where MiG-29 used to pounce on those and break the chase even before Jags could reach the AF base.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 26 May 2018 05:27

Jags can't carry BMos.Only lesser ASMs like Harpoon, Exocet and Ru equivs. Far better to station BMos MKIs in the ANC, etc. and Backfires from the mainland.
Jags far better off and needed for CS/ GA duties.Modified with armoured cockpits they would be v.useful armed with PGMs and a weaponload of anti- armour and anti-personnel muntions.However, a new class of light attack aircraft would be preferable with the exg. Jags used for the strike role .There are several options from turbo- prop Thanks, etc. to attack trainers like armed Hawk and the cheaper Yak. and it's Italian clone.Attack helos vulnerable to MANPADS and anti-air arty.US Apaches were badly bruised in Afghanistan in initial ops. and we're sparingly used.Russian attack helos too earlier after the introduction of Stinger SAM's.
Last edited by Philip on 26 May 2018 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 26 May 2018 10:35

This is a very old argument: what is the need for strike aircraft with cruise missiles with a range of over 1500 km?

Cruise missiles can only target predetermined coordinates, and those constitute only a set of targets. Nobody has lowered their demand for strike aircrafts since the advent of long range cruise missiles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 26 May 2018 12:56

Cheap indian made sfw can also increase safety for cas and bai missions across the board
With usual bombs rockets and guns

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 26 May 2018 14:26

Indranil wrote:This is a very old argument: what is the need for strike aircraft with cruise missiles with a range of over 1500 km?

Cruise missiles can only target predetermined coordinates, and those constitute only a set of targets. Nobody has lowered their demand for strike aircrafts since the advent of long range cruise missiles.


Another aspect people forgot is that CM is a glorified and expensive 250KG dumb/LGB. NATO alone has carried out more than 10,000 air strikes in Syria, so 1000 CM is not going to do much...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 26 May 2018 14:37

Kakkaji wrote:What if the re-engined and re-equipped Jaguars are dedicated exclusively for maritime strike role, thus freeing up the MKIs and Rafales for strikes over heavily defended Pakistani and Chinese airspace?


Majority of our action areas on LoC & LAC are mountains areas with valley. This is where Jags are perfect and I presume one of the prime reason why IAF has invested so much on Jags. The Jags can fly through the valleys and very difficult to detect because of the massive clutter and radar shadow the Himalayas makes!

Similarly PAF is sticking with Mirage. RAF similarly practice their Tornado flying low.


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