Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 26 May 2018 17:54

Jags afaik are not situated for high altitude warfare like our valleys and mountains and the design has it limatition reason why they didn’t persist with jags during Kargil.

Jags will do well at plains jungles and low altitude lever wet to sea level , good for Punjab Rajasthan theatre

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 26 May 2018 18:23

Egypt acquiring 50 MIG-29s deliveries to start soon and Algeri 14 MI-26Ts-the new upgraded 26s with only a 3 man crew, etc.Both birds at very low prices which the IAF should consider, both types needed and budgetary restraints.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 26 May 2018 18:29

-- Deleted copy---
Last edited by Bala Vignesh on 26 May 2018 19:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 26 May 2018 18:36

Austin wrote:Jags afaik are not situated for high altitude warfare like our valleys and mountains and the design has it limatition reason why they didn’t persist with jags during Kargil.

Jags will do well at plains jungles and low altitude lever wet to sea level , good for Punjab Rajasthan theatre


Jags were used for bombing runs during Kargil and they were used as high altitude bomber, which is not their role.

What I referring to cross-Loc ops by flying through the valleys and suddenly appear from nowhere at targets in Skardu and Tibetian plateau. It is very difficult to monitor such raids. In Kargil there was no such thing. In the

I wouldn't surprised if IAF wants Rafale for this ability.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 26 May 2018 19:43

Indranil wrote:Nobody has lowered their demand for strike aircrafts since the advent of long range cruise missiles.

Based on my research for another topic, the demand for strike and close support aircraft for CAS has gone up and continues to grow due to a shift to CAS and fire support on demand with PGM instead of just relying on organic Arty in western armies.

In light of this, would it not be prudent to invest the 3 years lead time for engine delivery to perform a deep overhaul of the 40 old Jags and "Zero" those airframes and then upgrade them?? It Would give us an additional 2 squadrons at a time when we are actively looking at a significant shortfall in squadron nos. And more importantly with the new engines and DARIN3, they have got significantly better capabilities which would still be relevant even a decade decade and a half later.
Last edited by Bala Vignesh on 26 May 2018 20:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 26 May 2018 19:45

And twin-engined more survivable than legacy MIG-21s being retired.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srin » 26 May 2018 21:59

Philip wrote:Egypt acquiring 50 MIG-29s deliveries to start soon and Algeri 14 MI-26Ts-the new upgraded 26s with only a 3 man crew, etc.Both birds at very low prices which the IAF should consider, both types needed and budgetary restraints.


Why should IAF choose Mi-26 when it has already decided on Chinooks. And interestingly, it was Chinook that was L1 (which means it was cheaper than the Mi26.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories1789_Boeings_Chinook_wins_Indian_heavy_lift_helicopter_tender.htm
The tender was opened recently in the presence of representatives of both the companies, and according to reliable sources, the quote by the US company was “surprisingly much lower” in both the initial and lifecycle costs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 27 May 2018 19:34

It's in a different league.Far larger and can recover a downed Chinook if need be.With its rear ramp it can lift a cargo equiv of an AN-12.Our border infra is officially only 25% complete after a decade mainly due to the absence of heavy eqpt. which Chinooks can't carry.

An MI-26T2 can carry a load of 20t, 82 troops or 60 stretchers/ wounded and has an 800km range increased with extra tanks to 1950km .A Chinook can only carry 10t, a max of 50 troops or 20 sretchers and a max range of 750km.

They should not really be compared as both were designed and meant for diff. requirements.The Chinook mainly as a troop transport or truck, while the MI-26 was meant to carry trucks! It can carry a BMD-4 or BTR, tactical missiles, etc. great distances.We need both.Chinooks as a troop carrier primarily and the MI-26T2 as a cargo / heavy eqpt. workhorse for the mountains primarily.Apart from Algeria with 14, Jordan has bought 4.With the border infra being given top priority esp. after Doklam, completing the unfinished border infra on our side in heavy mountainous regions requires a huge logistic effort unlike the Chinese operating mainly on the Tibetan plateau.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 27 May 2018 21:09

I second the need to acquire new mi26t

The chinook will flatter to deceive

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 27 May 2018 21:26

The Chin...ook has its virtues too.Smaller can go where it may be difficult for an MI-26T.But if we plan assaults upon the Tibetan plateau which we should, then the larger bird which can swiftly transport AVs, missiles, etc. would be well needed in large number.Even more C130Js should be on the cards for such ops.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 27 May 2018 22:45

Philip wrote:And twin-engined more survivable than legacy MIG-21s being retired.

For a strike aircraft discussion where does this contrast with Mig21 come?
Coupling elephant with single engine russian origin Mig21 rat.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 27 May 2018 22:55

Philip wrote:The Chin...ook has its virtues too.Smaller can go where it may be difficult for an MI-26T.But if we plan assaults upon the Tibetan plateau which we should, then the larger bird which can swiftly transport AVs, missiles, etc. would be well needed in large number.Even more C130Js should be on the cards for such ops.

Could you share Mi26T and Chinook's payload capability to carry heavy eqpt across 11000 -14000 ft ridges to Tibet?


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Khalsa » 28 May 2018 02:50

I am kind of sick of hearing this that a Mil-26 can carry a Chinook. Is that the Bharat Rakshak Qualitative Requirement (BRQR) now ?
I mean are we effing buying choppers to carry choppers or carry men and equipment.

Just as Odin said to Thor.
You are the god of Thunder not Hammers
You are buying a chopper to carry payload for the Jawan , not for carrying choppers to the Jawan.

Screw the chopper to chopper carrying capability.
What are the main reasons we went for Chinook ?
Can anyone enlighten me ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 28 May 2018 03:15

Philip wrote:Egypt acquiring 50 MIG-29s deliveries to start soon and Algeri 14 MI-26Ts-the new upgraded 26s with only a 3 man crew, etc.Both birds at very low prices which the IAF should consider, both types needed and budgetary restraints.


You are suggestingthat we follow the lead of two tiny north African nations for defense of a subcontinent size motherland of ours? Our national budget is bigger than their entire GDP. The way to look at it is that these poor guys can’t really afford anything but cheap Russian products.

No thank you! We should buy either Indian or something that meets our national defense needs not something that is cheap.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 28 May 2018 05:57

But a quick few sq MIG 29 (multirole) can arrest numbers at a cheaper rate. We ere looking at Malaysian Mig 29 (relatively unused) to shore up numbers. We are heavily down in numbers. I think this makes only sense if we get a reliable and unshakable BVR to go with it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 28 May 2018 11:02

Egypt is not tiny ! It gave the Israelis a big scare during the Yom Kippur War .Both Jordan and Algeria may be small nations but have operated modern eqpt. for decades. Let's not denigrate smaller nations.The Algerians famously fought the French colonialists and obtained their freedom from colonialism and Jordan fought the Israelis remember. Tough fighters unlike the much larger and immensely wealthy Saudis who as famously said by former US Def. Sec. Robert Gates, "will fight the Iranians to the last American!"Right now they're getting gheir backsides burnt by poor Yemeni tribals.

If our LCA was being produced in large numbers we would not need to buy foreign birds.Moreover, the MIG-29s are used by us- almost 70 in the inventory,no need to build up an infra for them and are ghf cheapest med. birds going.The upgraded latest Avatar is only $5+M more. If the IAF thinks that second-hand ex- Malaysian MIGs are worth buying then it shows how much it values the type.Plus, we are already building 120+ RD-33 engines that the aircraft uses under licence!

It is simple common-sense to make up part of the shortfall in numbers at low cost.If cheap M2Ks were on the market why not.But the cost of upgrading just one M2K is $50M, an atrocious figure which must be kept in mind when considering buying Rafales.For that cost we could get 2 LCAs!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby vasu raya » 28 May 2018 22:25

Algeria's requirement for 14 Mi-26 is surprising, when India was making do with four nos and with even less availability.

Just a datapoint, Kishen Ganga project I believe used a TBM, a first in the Himalayas and they used about 150 trucks to ferry the equipment and some barely fit in the intermediate tunnels where they reduced the tire pressure on the trucks a bit to get through. Again an access road can only be built to a location in summer months.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Thakur_B » 29 May 2018 06:45

Routine half yearly reminder, what happened to HJT-36 ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 29 May 2018 08:03

fanne wrote:But a quick few sq MIG 29 (multirole) can arrest numbers at a cheaper rate. We ere looking at Malaysian Mig 29 (relatively unused) to shore up numbers. We are heavily down in numbers. I think this makes only sense if we get a reliable and unshakable BVR to go with it.


The way you are saying makes sense but we have mig29 K with single digit serviceability numbers per CAG. It’s too risky and it wouldn’t meet IAF requirements anyhow.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby kit » 29 May 2018 08:34

nam wrote:
Austin wrote:Jags afaik are not situated for high altitude warfare like our valleys and mountains and the design has it limatition reason why they didn’t persist with jags during Kargil.

Jags will do well at plains jungles and low altitude lever wet to sea level , good for Punjab Rajasthan theatre


Jags were used for bombing runs during Kargil and they were used as high altitude bomber, which is not their role.

What I referring to cross-Loc ops by flying through the valleys and suddenly appear from nowhere at targets in Skardu and Tibetian plateau. It is very difficult to monitor such raids. In Kargil there was no such thing. In the

I wouldn't surprised if IAF wants Rafale for this ability.


As a low level Dpsa it can perform well in maritime strikes as well .. a reengined and aesa will exponentially add to it's capability

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 29 May 2018 09:03

Question.... What if the difference between the new radalt requirement on the d3 jags and say a terprom navigation system like the tornado had?

Will the end result be same?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 29 May 2018 11:31

fanne wrote:But a quick few sq MIG 29 (multirole) can arrest numbers at a cheaper rate. We ere looking at Malaysian Mig 29 (relatively unused) to shore up numbers. We are heavily down in numbers. I think this makes only sense if we get a reliable and unshakable BVR to go with it.


I feel It makes sense only if the Russians allow the integration of the Kaveri, Uttam and Astra to it along with our own avionics suite. Basically we would buy only the airframes and the control systems but the rest of it would be customer furnished equipment for ease of uogradability and maintenance.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 29 May 2018 13:36

Cain Marko wrote:Question.... What if the difference between the new radalt requirement on the d3 jags and say a terprom navigation system like the tornado had?

Will the end result be same?


don't think so. terprom matched returned radar signals with a stored map to compare and confirm way points and route. rad alt should just return an accurate above ground height

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby mody » 29 May 2018 15:15

How about transferring the Navy Mig29K to the airforce. The MiGs are having problems operating from the Carriers. Out of the 45 that we have purchased, we can retain 24 for the Vikramaditya and transfer 21 to the IAF. That would add 1 squadron for IAF.
Convert the planes from carrier role to regular airforce role by removing the tail hook and maybe changing parts of the landing gear, as well as any other changes as required.

Look to acquire either 36 F-18s and Rafael Ms for the navy. The choice should be based on whoever can demonstrate ski jump take off with a meaningful payload and along with who is willing to give license manufacture with a clause to help us make the complete engine from raw material stage within 5 years. We can fund the upgrade program for both the GE F414 to EPE/EDE standard or the upgrade for the M88 to higher thrust, say minimum 105KN wet thrust. The upgrade for both the engines would be required for ski jump take off anyways and we can get the license build for the engines along with some level of ToT (no one will ever give the full ToT). With a license to make changes to the engines in the future, like maybe adding thrust vectoring.

This would secure the engine option for bot the LCA MK2 and AMCA for us, with domestic production of the engines.

Maybe we can also check about getting the Qatari M2K-5. If we can get them for the price that we are paying, per plane, for the M2K upgrade, it would be worth it.
Also, why we didn't try to get the Brazilian M2Ks? They retired 10 single seat and 2 twin seat aircrafts in 2013. Till then the planes were under maintenance contract with Dassault, so the condition should have been reasonable.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Pratyush » 29 May 2018 15:47

Bala Vignesh wrote:
fanne wrote:But a quick few sq MIG 29 (multirole) can arrest numbers at a cheaper rate. We ere looking at Malaysian Mig 29 (relatively unused) to shore up numbers. We are heavily down in numbers. I think this makes only sense if we get a reliable and unshakable BVR to go with it.


I feel It makes sense only if the Russians allow the integration of the Kaveri, Uttam and Astra to it along with our own avionics suite. Basically we would buy only the airframes and the control systems but the rest of it would be customer furnished equipment for ease of uogradability and maintenance.


If we could do that, then why not build additional mk1 &2 airframes, in the time frame in which the new 29is expected to be certified.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 30 May 2018 04:19

Col. Ajai Shukla(R) reports that the Jaguar with Honeywell engine upgrade is on

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/05/ ... aguar.html


This long-delayed project, which was resurrected last month, involves replacing the Jaguar’s underpowered engines.


Separately, the uprated fighter will get state-of-the-art avionics for striking ground targets more accurately, hitting maritime targets far out at sea, and winning aerial dogfights with enemy fighters.


For a decade, the Jaguar upgrade proposal has remained stalled on the issue of cost. Honeywell was made responsible for “re-engining” the Jaguar, and the US firm quoted an unacceptable $2.5-3 billion for taking full responsibility for installing its new F-125IN engines in 80 Jaguars. :(( :(( :((


But now, breaking that logjam, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been nominated the lead integrator, while Honeywell has stepped back to the more restricted role of engine supplier. HAL will buy F-125IN engines from Honeywell and install them in the Jaguars, replacing the current Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines.


{Sad, solution was right there with HAL. Why was this not thought at first instance? Must be black lentils onlee}

....

The HAL chief says there will be no time-consuming competitive tendering, since Honeywell is the only vendor. Rolls-Royce has declined to participate, since they do not have an engine that meets the IAF’s specifications for the Jaguar.


Honeywell will require 36 months for the F-125IN engines to start rolling off the production line, but HAL wants to go ahead with engine integration, using two engines that Honeywell had built earlier when it was to have the lead role.....

...
Of the 145 Jaguars that HAL built for the IAF, only 119 are currently flying, comprising six IAF squadrons of about 20 fighters each. Since 39 of these would complete their airframe lives by 2025-30, the IAF considers it uneconomical to re-engine these. That leaves 80 Jaguars, whose service lives would be extended to 2035-40 with new engines.


With each of those fighters requiring two engines, and an additional maintenance reserve of 40 engines, HAL would require 200 F-125IN engines from Honeywell. Aerospace industry experts estimate a price of $5-6 million per engine, which would place Honeywell’s bill at a little over a billion dollars. The remaining cost would be incurred in integrating the engines onto the fleet.


With engine supply starting only three years from the contract date, substantial numbers of re-engined Jaguars would probably materialize only after five years, i.e. around 2024.


IAF pilots joke that the Jaguar’s current engines are so underpowered that the fighter only gets airborne because the earth is round – and its curvature makes the ground drop away beneath the moving aircraft. With the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines output (25 kiloNewtons of dry thrust and 37.5 kN with afterburners) being replaced by the F-125IN (27.7 kN of dry thrust and 43.8kN with afterburners), Jaguar pilots believe they would have the last laugh.



he also wrote an accompanying article on Elbit AESA, DARIN III, and the ASRAAM. Looks like the AESA will get assembled in Hyderabad.
and could be chosen for the Tejas Mk1A.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 30 May 2018 04:30

Because it is not that easy. Fit, fly, certify. They are adding weight (radar) in the front and removing weight from the back (engines). The Jags have great static margin, but this might stretch it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 30 May 2018 07:43

I thought some jags have already been upgraded to d3 and aesa?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 30 May 2018 07:59

JM255 is the only one that I know that has been upgraded to Darin III

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 30 May 2018 08:03

the naval strike jaguars 12 or so iirc. they replace the agave radar.

RR stopped any developmemt of the adour 811 afterburning family long ago, as the main market was the non afterburning variant on the trainers like hawks. they have invested in that trying to enter the EU ucav market

Adour Mk 951 - Designed for the latest versions of the BAE Hawk and powering the BAE Taranis and Dassault nEUROn UCAV technology demonstrators.[7] The Adour Mk 951 is a more fundamental redesign than the Adour Mk 106, with improved performance (rated at 6,500 lbf (29,000 N) thrust) and up to twice the service life of the 871.[8] It features an all-new fan and combustor, revised HP and LP turbines, and introduces Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC).[citation needed] The Mk 951 was certified in 2005.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 09 Jun 2018 04:12

The Mirage 2000 is a piece of art. Every line, every curve just flows and blends. Its a level of refinement which LCA hasn't reached yet.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby maz » 09 Jun 2018 05:21

Loads of material here on Indian naval Aviation. It is a bit dated but still useful

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/series/indian-naval-aviation/



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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 14 Jun 2018 02:37

Does anybody know what happened of our interest in acquiring the 12 and 21 used-Mig-29s from Malaysia and Russia respectively?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jun 2018 06:23

Indranil wrote:Does anybody know what happened of our interest in acquiring the 12 and 21 used-Mig-29s from Malaysia and Russia respectively?

IR, the used MiG-29s from Russia were a non-starter from the moment of offer. There was a fear that the Russians were going to give India the short end of the stick. The Gorshkov and MiG-29K episode have left a bitter taste in the MoD. The article below is dated April 2018 and we are only in the middle of June. Perhaps the MoD is examinig through the offer (and the planes themselves) with a fine tooth comb or has decided to toss the entire offer out the window. Only time will tell.

Russia proposes to sell 21 used, cheap MiG-29s, India wary of hidden costs
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-04-08

"The government will go through each and every aspect of the proposal to ensure that there are no hidden costs that we may have to pay for the planes after acquiring them from the Russians. The experience gained during the Admiral Gorshkov deal would be avoided," government sources told Mail Today.

The used MiG-29s from Malaysia are a different story. In April 2017, there were news reports that India was interested in acquiring the Malaysian MiGs (see first article below), but then in Nov 2017 the RMAF grounded their MiG-29s (see second article below). AFAIK, no news after that.

India to examine whether to acquire MiG-29 jets from Malaysia
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 054537.cms

Malaysia Grounds MiG-29s and Rethinks Future Fighter
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... re-fighter

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 03 Aug 2018 15:44

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 4496126976

#PlaneCarnival shifted out of Bangalore. Next edition of #AeroIndia to be held at Bakshi Ka Talab (BKT) AFS in Lucknow. From Nov first week onwards likely this year. Official confirmation awaited from MoD.


Aero India likely to shift from Bengaluru to Lucknow

If this happens, I wont be able to attend AeroIndia this year

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 03 Aug 2018 17:03

Makes no sense. But hey, that's politics.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 03 Aug 2018 19:11

Perhaps our MoD thinks DefExpos and Airshows are same as Russian Circus which goes around in all towns.


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