Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 02 Oct 2018 17:55

Katare wrote:HAL orderbook as of March 2018
Su MKI -25
LCA -32
Do- 228 -16
ALH-73
Cheetal- 6
Chetak - 8

following major programmes to be liquidated.
• Su-30 MKI for Indian Air Force (25 Nos).
• Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operation Clearance (12 Nos) and Final Operation Clearance for Indian Air Force (20 Nos).
• Dornier Do-228 aircraft for Indian Navy (12 Nos) and for Indian Air Force (4 Nos).
• Advanced Light Helicopters for Indian Navy (16 Nos) and Indian Coast Guard (16 Nos). New order for 41 Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) Dhruv received from the Indian Army (40 Nos) and Indian Navy (1 No) in August, 2017.
• Cheetal Helicopter for Indian Air Force (10 Nos) and Indian Army (6 Nos).
• An order for 8 Chetak Helicopters received from Indian Navy in August, 2017.
• AL-31 FP Engines (used in Su-30 MKI Aircraft) to Indian Air Force.
• ROH task for aircraft /helicopter/engines for one year.


HAL has delivered just one SU30 and LCA each to IAF in the last 6 months. Time to privatize it before it becomes another non performing PSU Monster.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 02 Oct 2018 21:24

Hatchet job! HAL has huge problems that no one can deny but the article has its facts mixed up. MKI line has been stable for years now.

HAL as of March 2018 have delivered 197 MKIs to IAF (additional 50 came from Russia), of the 25 remaing 12 would be delivered this year, 2 already delivered and 10 more to come in next 6 months. MKI line would come to close on March 2019 on schedule.

Original contract was for 140 to be delivered by 2017, HAL delivered 185 MKI by March 2017. The supplementary purchase were emergency measures so aircrafts were boyght in SKD and CKDs from Russia.

Some reports have claimed that HAL has focused on Russian kits from last two contracts to meet the production numbers but its struggling to make aircraft from raw material stage in 4th phase.

I think IAF wanted numbers so they may have asked for it, i.e. prioritize deliveries from last two contract over the initial one.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 02 Oct 2018 22:39

It is a hatchet job to show HAL is low light to legitimize the Rafale-RDAL deal. Because if quality of HAL built Su-30s were so poor, they would either be hangar queens, or be non performant at military exercises, or crashing regularly. None of these seem to be happening!!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2018 00:49

Vips wrote:
Time to privatize it before it becomes another non performing PSU Monster.


You know, this kind on unnecessary rhetoric lower quality of your posts significantly. HAL is far from being an NPA. It pays back thousands of Cr of profit every year to GOI and has practically zero debt on its balance sheet. Thats enviable for any company as far as balance sheets go. Stick to the point you want to make.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 03 Oct 2018 07:59

Vips, the aircraft dilivery happens towards the end of financial year, not an ideal situation but that’s how it is set-up.

With LCA, they are struggling but there are some good reasons for that too.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 03 Oct 2018 19:51

ANI
@ANI
There has been delay in delivery schedule in contracts already executed to HAL. There is a 3 yrs delay in delivery of Sukhoi-30, 6 years delay in Jaguar, 5 year delay in LCA, and 2 year delay in delivery of Mirage 2000 upgrade: Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 03 Oct 2018 20:04

Austin wrote:ANI
@ANI
There has been delay in delivery schedule in contracts already executed to HAL. There is a 3 yrs delay in delivery of Sukhoi-30, 6 years delay in Jaguar, 5 year delay in LCA, and 2 year delay in delivery of Mirage 2000 upgrade: Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa


Did ACM mention the Mig-29UPG being undertaken by 11 BRD, and if it is on time? :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 04 Oct 2018 05:03

Are all the Mig-29 UPG being done by 11 BRD? There was a report of delay in Russian parts for the UPG being an impediment.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2018 08:47

ramana wrote:Are all the Mig-29 UPG being done by 11 BRD? There was a report of delay in Russian parts for the UPG being an impediment.


Yes BRD is doing all upgrade happening quietely

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 04 Oct 2018 08:49

Please see latest statement by the air chief in the Raffy td.No mention of MIG-29 upgrade delays.To my knowledge all were completed.
However, there is a 3 yr. delay in MKIs, 5 years with the LCA, 6 years with Jags and 2 years with M2K upgrades.
M2K upgrades apart from being exorbitantly expensive, working out to $50M a pop come without labour costs- the bone of contention between HAL and the IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Neshant » 04 Oct 2018 08:54

How do crashes factor into price - or are they not factored in at all.

Buy two planes for 80M.
One crashes.
The cost of the remaining plane is effectively 80M not 40M.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 04 Oct 2018 09:05

Philip wrote:M2K upgrades apart from being exorbitantly expensive, working out to $50M a pop come without labour costs- the bone of contention between HAL and the IAF.

Boss, the agreement/price negotiation is between IAF and Dassault.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2018 11:41

Bit of an amateur video but some good shots of the upgraded fulcrum at. Adampur. Still at it's Smokey best in afraid

[youtube]. https://youtu.be/NA9zQ6us6fM [/youtube]

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 07 Oct 2018 00:23

Mig 29 was not mentioned because the question was about HAL’s capability and Mig29 upgrade has nothing to do with HAL.

Mig29 upgrades cost so little because they are rudimentary upgrades that can be done at BRD levels.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2018 16:47

JTull wrote:
Austin wrote:ANI
@ANI
There has been delay in delivery schedule in contracts already executed to HAL. There is a 3 yrs delay in delivery of Sukhoi-30, 6 years delay in Jaguar, 5 year delay in LCA, and 2 year delay in delivery of Mirage 2000 upgrade: Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa


Did ACM mention the Mig-29UPG being undertaken by 11 BRD, and if it is on time? :wink:

It is. The upgraded birds have been flying for quite some time. There is a video posted in one of the threads here of the bird flying from a forward base in front of journalists.

Upgrades more than Mirage 2000. New radar new engines airframe upgrade with conformal fuel tank added. The Mirage 2000 didn't get new engine nor structural changes for CFT.

One of the reasons why IAF smirks at...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 07 Oct 2018 18:28

i suppose it can be argued the mig29 was behind the M2k kit in most respects incl fuel fraction and needed this deeper upgrade.

the m2k did not need much beyond avionics, mica and radar....and neither it had option of fitting another engine as the m88 is too small. there is no growth version of the m53 engine.

the redoubtable klimov rd33 is still in full rate production for the JF17 bandar-mki :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Oct 2018 23:04

Katare wrote:Mig 29 was not mentioned because the question was about HAL’s capability and Mig29 upgrade has nothing to do with HAL.

Mig29 upgrades cost so little because they are rudimentary upgrades that can be done at BRD levels.

Rudimentary? How? They are definitely more extensive than the m2k unless there is some super secret sauce in the m2k that nobody knows of.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 08 Oct 2018 00:44

Air Force Day: MiG-29 gets upgrade; gains in lethality, ferocity.

The India Air Force's beast — MiG-29 — has gained in strength and ferocity after an upgrade, giving the force which is battling a shortage of fighter aircraft a much-needed boost, according to officials.

The Russian origin aircraft, now capable of effecting mid-air refuelling, is compatible with latest missiles and can launch multi-dimensional attacks, Flight Lieutenant Karan Kohli, who is deployed at Adampur Air Force Station, said.

Even in the previous 'legacy version', the aircraft played an important role as the Indian Air Force stamped its supremacy over the Pakistani force during the Kargil War of 1999.

Last week, the upgraded MiG-29+ showcased its combat capabilities at Admapur Air Force Station. The country will celebrate the Air Force day on Monday.

"With the upgrade, as compared to previous 'legacy version' of the MiG-29 bought under emergency clause in early 1980s, the fighter jets are capable to give befitting response," said an official, requesting anonymity, when asked about any possible two-front war with China and Pakistan.

Kohli said that upgraded MiG-29 also has Multi-Functional Display (MFD) screen.

On September 12, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa had said the force was reeling under a severe shortage + of fighter aircraft. The IAF chief had said the force currently has 31 squadrons of fighter jets against the sanctioned strength of 42 squadrons.

"Even when we do have 42 squadrons, we will be below the combined numbers of two of our regional adversaries," he had said.

The strategically important Adampur Air Force Station, which is around 100 kms from Pakistan and 250 km away from China borders, is now equipped with upgraded MiG-29.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has three squadrons of MiG-29 fighter jets in operation, two of them at the Adampur Air Force Station. One squadron comprises 16-18 aircraft.

Kohli said that the force now has a combat aircraft which is flexible and can manoeuvre every situation so that IAF pilots can change their position and strike the enemy.

He also said that the fighter plane has the capability of taking off vertically,which has "increased the IAF's power a lot".

The upgraded MiG-29 aircraft can take off within five minutes of spotting a hostile jet trying to enter the Indian airspace and destroy it, he said.

"With air-to-air refuelling feature, upgraded MiG 29 can cover larger distance as compared to the previous legacy aircraft and destroy the enemy," said another IAF officer, who did not wish to be named, on the two-front war possibility.

"With the upgraded version, the range of aircraft has improved a lot. Moreover, in the legacy aircraft, we were restricted to the certain dimension, but we can now do air-to-air, air-to-ground and anti-shipping operation," said a pilot who flies MiG aircraft.

The upgraded MiG-29 has all latest features, including a glass cockpit having digital screens. Old instruments in the legacy version of MiG 29 have been replaced with modern ones, Kohli added.

In the 1999 Kargil War, the Adampur station played an important role in destroying enemy fortifications located at heights of 15,000 feet and above. In the 1971 war also, the Adampur base was an operationally dynamic base for the air campaign against Pakistan.

In the 1965 Indo-Pak war too, Adampur proved to be nemesis for the Pakistani misadventures as several squadrons inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 08 Oct 2018 00:57

Cain Marko wrote:
Katare wrote:Mig 29 was not mentioned because the question was about HAL’s capability and Mig29 upgrade has nothing to do with HAL.

Mig29 upgrades cost so little because they are rudimentary upgrades that can be done at BRD levels.

Rudimentary? How? They are definitely more extensive than the m2k unless there is some super secret sauce in the m2k that nobody knows of.


What kind of upgrade can you do at a BRD? I have not seen anything concrete from a reliable source about Mig upgrades so my comments are based on the amount of money spent and place it is being done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 11 Oct 2018 04:49

Don't know if this was posted earlier or not. But in essence, the IAF will get 2 Mirage-2000s (most likely twin seaters) and convert them into Mirage-2000TI upgraded twin seaters using the 2 kits that were paid for before 2 Mirages crashed.

link


New Delhi: Seeking to bolster its Mirage-2000 fighter jet fleet, India is getting two of these at a dirt-cheap price of Rs 16 crore per aircraft from France. The two aircraft would be later upgraded to the highest standards by the HAL.

The French are offering the planes at Euro 2 million per aircraft and the cost of transporting the planes to India would be around Euro one million. So, at Euro five million (approx Rs 40 crore), India will get two aircraft with a life of 3,000 hours left in them, government sources told MyNation.

The aircraft would also help in utilising the upgrade kits that had been ordered during the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract with France. India had a fleet of 51 Mirages but the number came down to 49 after the loss of two planes in quick succession around 2012-13, the sources said.
The two Mirages coming from France would help in making up the fleet strength back to 51.

India is also getting a fleet of 32 Jaguar aircraft, which are supposed to be used as spares to support the current fleet of Jaguar fighters operated by India. The 100 Jaguar aircraft strong fleet would also help in maintaining force levels and combat the delay in procuring jets beyond the 4 plus generation fighter aircraft such as Rafale due to the Congress government impeding the decision-making.

..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby tsarkar » 11 Oct 2018 09:31

Katare wrote:What kind of upgrade can you do at a BRD? I have not seen anything concrete from a reliable source about Mig upgrades so my comments are based on the amount of money spent and place it is being done.

In which case why dont you read up the MiG-29UPG upgrade program with Radar, CFT, engine, weapons and other upgrades?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 11 Oct 2018 10:26

Katare wrote:
What kind of upgrade can you do at a BRD? I have not seen anything concrete from a reliable source about Mig upgrades so my comments are based on the amount of money spent and place it is being done.


BRD’s are equipped for deep overhauls and upgrades for items we have procured off the shelf. They are a mini assembly line and the kind of work they perform is like that of any third party MRO Organization, including very deep upgrades.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 11 Oct 2018 12:02

35 jaguars are being hauled in for spares

31 france 2 uk 2 oman

Cannibalism will be at brd gorakhpur

Some 400 types of spares will be harvested

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby tsarkar » 11 Oct 2018 13:25

BRD's also assemble Mi-8 & Mi-17 from CKD kits since 70's. Similar to what HAL is doing for some tranche's of Su-30s. They are doing complete rebuild of An-32 as well.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 11 Oct 2018 13:47

Why aren't these BRDs being hived off to create a HAL competitor? Even Mig-29s are being upgraded in-house. There's some serious capability here, surely much more than Reliance, Tata, etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Katare » 11 Oct 2018 19:15

BRD's are great and they can assemble stuff, like any good shop but they are hardly a place to create/upgrade/test a 4+ gen aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2018 01:46

Kartik wrote:Don't know if this was posted earlier or not. But in essence, the IAF will get 2 Mirage-2000s (most likely twin seaters) and convert them into Mirage-2000TI upgraded twin seaters using the 2 kits that were paid for before 2 Mirages crashed.

link

Excellent news and good find Kartik. Thanks!

I have a feeling that these will be twin seaters as well. To replace the pair of twin seaters that crashed in quick succession in 2012.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 31 Oct 2018 17:25

Another one to add to HAL related whines

Training jets assembled in India using inferior engines, recent audit says

Pilots training to join the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Navy are flying jets fitted with inferior engines and “Category B” or “second-hand components” that seriously affect the “quality of the aircraft”, a recent audit by the Comptroller General of Defence Accounts (CGDA) says.

Faced with an ageing fleet of intermediate jet trainers, India bought 123 Hawk - 106 for IAF and 17 for the Navy from British company BAES in 2004. Twenty-eight of these 123 jets were to be bought in flyaway condition whereas the rest were to be assembled by the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with the engines being made by it based on technology transfer.

The total value of the deal was about $2 billion. The aircraft were ordered in three phases, starting March 2004.

The problem is with the aircraft assembled here, according to the audit.

In addition to using inferior engines, “a large number of second-hand components and parts have been fitted in the aircraft,” according to the audit report, which has been seen by Hindustan Times.

And, although India specifically bans using agents, a middleman was involved, the inquiry found.

The audit estimates illegal commission worth Rs 500 crore was paid.


“In our findings, a linkage between commission paid and compromises made on the quality of engines, which has affected the quality of aircraft has been clearly brought out,” the audit report says.

The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) was asked to investigate the allegations of payment of commission which first surfaced in the British media. The case is still under investigation.

IAF, HAL and DGQA, or Directorate General of Quality Assurance, part of the defence ministry, and which independently vets the quality of equipment all seem to have turned a blind eye to the lapses, the audit says.

For instance, according to the audit, while India contracted for engines that could be used for 2,000 hours before overhaul and service, the engines which ultimately arrived had to be overhauled after flying for 1,000 hours. “Subsequently, to cover up this issue HAL, IAF and DGQA released a statement which shows that the life of Aero Engines is 1,400 hours and not 2,000 hours and that special inspection to be carried out to find whether it is capable of operations for another 600 hours,” the audit report says.

A spokesperson for HAL didn’t respond to queries. The Indian Air Force also did not respond.

A defence ministry official and an IAF officer, both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity, questioned the audit, which was conducted in 2016.

“Assumptions that the engine is of inferior quality are incorrect. HAL manufactured engines post transfer of technology from the Original Equipment Manufacturer Rolls Royce,” a senior defence ministry official.

Commenting on the issue of inferior engines and Time-Between Overhaul (TBO) a senior IAF officer said, “Engine servicing is supervised by the OEM every 500 hours till it reaches 2,000 hours. Based on the recommendations of the OEM, engines manufactured HAL are subject to additional inspections after they flown for 1,400 hours for three components. As on date, all HAL engines are accepted with a TBO of 2,000 hours.”

Every component, the IAF officer said, is subject to a “rigorous test,” and use of “sub-standard equipment” does not arise.

Explaining the issue of “Category B” or second-hand equipment being fitted in the jets as raised in the audit, another defence ministry official who asked not to be named because he is not also authorised to speak to the media, said: “ Category B equipment is not second-hand equipment. It is a fly worthy component that is removed from a serviceable fighter for utilisation in another aircraft with necessary certified residual life.”

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 01 Nov 2018 02:14

Indian MoD approves upgrade of Coast Guard's Do-228 MPAs


India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has approved the mid-life upgrade (MLU) of 17 licence-built Dornier Do-228 maritime reconnaissance aircraft (MRA) belonging to the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) for INR9.50 billion (USD129.10 million).


The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman sanctioned the MLU on 27 October, which will be executed by the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) that also licence-builds the multimission twin turboprop Dorniers.

According to the government's Press Information Bureau (PIB), the 'state-of-the-art technology upgrade' will include equipping the Dorniers with special maintenance tools and special test equipment.

The PIB statement declared that the MLU will support the ICG in protecting India's maritime zones and in patrolling its 2.01 million km2 Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 01 Nov 2018 03:49

What is the nature of the upgrades?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby jaysimha » 02 Nov 2018 14:14

http://pibarchive.nic.in/newsite/photor ... hid=133049
Image

The Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa along with other dignitaries releasing the book on AVIAMAT- 2018, during the inauguration ceremony of seminar on Emerging Trends in Aviation Engineering and Logistics (AVIAMAT-2018), in New Delhi on October 31, 2018.
CNR :120468 Photo ID :133049

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 02 Nov 2018 17:46

Do228 needs to be long replaced by ATR class types , How long are they going to push with the short legged Do .Upgrading these obsolete types are waste of time.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2018 19:08

Money.....Ideally, the LTA/ C-295 would've been a good platform for several specialised variants likt MRP, EW, etc.
We need more LRMP birds rather than ATR types used in the Meditt.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 02 Nov 2018 19:46

Why would you replace a 228 with a ATR when the former gets the job done. Longer legs through additional fuel tanks is easily achievable.

P.S. With wing tanks the Do-228 has an endurance of over 8 hours with wing tanks.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 02 Nov 2018 22:01

The Navy has a requirement of the ATR class but not as a replacement of Do-228 but as a gap filler between the Do-228 and the P-8I. The Do-228 is the Light class and ATR is medium class, they complement each other and not replace

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 02 Nov 2018 23:23

Indranil wrote:Why would you replace a 228 with a ATR when the former gets the job done. Longer legs through additional fuel tanks is easily achievable.

P.S. With wing tanks the Do-228 has an endurance of over 8 hours with wing tanks.


Do228 offers lesser payload and crew comfort compare to ATR class, they need to just keep 2 class ATR and P8

Do228 is not end of life design and not suitable for IN needs short leg less payload and crew comfort

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 03 Nov 2018 01:42

Clearly we need something in the P8 class. Beyond that I don't know how many classes of aircraft that CG/IN should maintain. AFAIK the ATR requirements were different from those of the utility 228 requirements. So, I will bow out of this discussion.

But, I can tell you this: Although, I have never been in the cockpit of an ATR, I have spent many hours in the cockpit of a PC-12 and a CJ. I am pretty sure there is not much difference in crew comfort.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 09 Nov 2018 18:23

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 9880002560

#Breaking | Great news coming out of #HAL hangars. #HTT40 PT-1 has successfully completed a 2-turn spin with conventional entry & recovery. Flight piloted by Gp Capt Venugopal (Retd). After 2 gens, spin works for HAL!. @manoharparrikar must be a happy man!


Image

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 6482150400
Team #HTT40 can celebrate tonite as they stuck as 1 unit, never got bogged down by -ve comments & bad Press. Ex-Chairmen R K Tyagi & T S Raju played their part; inspiring support from @manoharparrikar. Then there was this young lad called Prashant Bhadoria -- #HAL's #ViratKholi


https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1060868224231923712
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby suryag » 09 Nov 2018 18:39

curious about the yellow contraption at the rear of the plane.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby raghuk » 09 Nov 2018 18:59

Spin chute


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