Russian Weapons & Military Technology

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brar_w
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by brar_w »

Manish_P wrote:F-36 King Snake? Is that even an official project?
Only in Huskhit's world. Not in the real one. Lockheed has sold about 1,000 F-35's as of 2021 (about 1/3 of total expected production) so why would it cannibalize its own sales especially when the existing F-16 models will continue to sell through the end of the decade?
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by vera_k »

ArjunPandit wrote:Even our old comrade phillips hasnt promoted it yet. So why is a sale to India being discussed? Is that due to the High value target on 17.30 in the image rakesh sir?
Press reports say India cannot operate the F35 after buying the S400. This then becomes an option if more aircraft are needed than the domestic programs can produce.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by basant »

Just for the record.

India expected to seek new Russian stealth fighter amid ongoing border dispute with China
India will be keen to buy a newly unveiled Russian stealth fighter to help counter China’s forces along their disputed border, according to military analysts.

Earlier this week the Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi unveiled a prototype of its new “Checkmate” jet at the MAKS-2021 International Aviation and Space Salon outside Moscow.
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The Checkmate will cost US$25-30 million, according to Sergei Chemezov, chief of Russia’s state aerospace and defence conglomerate Rostec – a significant price advantage over the F-35, which costs at least US$100 million.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by brar_w »

The recent Aviation Week podcast on the Checkmate is good. It does not appear that Sukhoi has domestic funding to self finance the full development or testing for the platform, required to bring it into operation service. The Russian air force also doesn't not have it as part of its recently outlined modernization plan. So this means, someone would have to fund a pretty good chunk of development which could be a roughly a billion or so dollars for a major partner in case of co-development with Russian forces, or several times that if it is purely an export oriented program.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by ArjunPandit »

vera_k wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Even our old comrade phillips hasnt promoted it yet. So why is a sale to India being discussed? Is that due to the High value target on 17.30 in the image rakesh sir?
Press reports say India cannot operate the F35 after buying the S400. This then becomes an option if more aircraft are needed than the domestic programs can produce.
anything external after the stage we are at for AMCA and LCA MK1A/MK2 does not seem logical to me. Rafale was and should be our last import of a different type
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by vera_k »

Sure. However, aside from low rate production possibly being insufficient, the AMCA & LCA are dependent on US supplies for the engine. Unclear if things stay the same the S400 purchase.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by kit »

https://hushkit.net/2021/07/20/what-we- ... nic-smith/

The Russians are running quite a slick PR campaign touting its virtues., i am sceptical of its many "capabilities" ., looks as if they are trying to make up the lack of brochures for their previous "5th" generation fighter :mrgreen:

"Russia lacks any experience with true VLO stealth. However, it has made significant progress with LO airframe design features in the Su-57, and it certainly has the potential to manufacture a new generation of combat aircraft (with the Felon as the centrepiece) that get past the traditional massive signature weakness of the Flanker and Fulcrum series.
I think Russia has its own take on stealth as a concept, with a firmly realistic internal appraisal of its own industrial and financial limitations, as well as the constantly improving nature of NATO sensors which make true VLO performance in a major war ever harder as a goal for future systems. For them, I think RCS reduction features are seen as key to maintaining current levels of competitiveness in the air – whilst ever improving long range SAM systems and ground based radars form the first line of defence (or offense) against NATO airpower. For me, Russian boasts about F-22 or F-35 levels of stealth in novel air systems are simply propaganda aimed at the Russian domestic audience and prospective export customers."

Divertless intake ala AMCA

Image

One of the biggest challenges in moving from a prototype that looks a bit like a 5th generation aircraft to a genuine operational capability is incorporating all the myriad sensors, avionics, life support and fuel/engine systems. All of these components, especially the sensors and fuel/engine systems generate a great deal of heat when in use. This must be managed without adding the usual ducts, ram air intakes etc which would destroy the stealth properties of the airframe. They must also all compete with fuel and weapons for very limited space within an outer mould line which is fixed for RCS control reasons. Sensors must also be covered with fairings or airframe skin which allows their own emissions to pass unimpeded, but interacts with hostile radar in such a way as to not compromise the RCS.

India would do well to stay at arm's length from this and invest in its own AMCA
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by brar_w »

While they did include an Indian pilot in the advertisement, I think this is more focused at picking up a lucky (for Sukhoi) Middle East customer that wants to bank roll the project, or market it more towards the smaller, more budget conscious Su30/MiG29 users in that if they collectively sign up then something can be made to work for that is a lot more affordable to buy and use than the Su-57. An India centric export (which is what MAKS is for) would have probably focused on an increased R&D spend on the PAKFA program to provide an onramp to IAF/MOD to get back with a more capable and custom variant. But none of that happened. Also, Sukhoi does not appear to have secured any MOU's from any potential Checkmate customer or even one of the Russian services so really difficult to assess what was gained from this entire exercise.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Maria »

Just wanted to confirm - is this what we call vaporware?
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Rakesh »

It is vaporware onlee.

If we end up in this mess, we will have ourselves to blame. I really hope wiser minds prevail and we focus on AMCA.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Manish_P »

Rakeshi ji, don't you mean the next iteration of LCA? AMCA a medium weight twin engine bird, would be in a different class to this single engine short ranged one?
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Pratyush »

It will be AMCA only. They need to get the engine ready.

We have come too far to go back to Russians or any other providers for next generation aircraft.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote:Rakeshi ji, don't you mean the next iteration of LCA? AMCA a medium weight twin engine bird, would be in a different class to this single engine short ranged one?
I meant AMCA onlee. I am assuming when you say next iteration of LCA, you mean Tejas Mk2?

From what I have read and seen so far...the Su-75 Checkmate is a spin off from the Su-57 program. From the cockpit to the nose, she bears a striking resemblance - at least to me - of the Su-57. And the Su-57 is at least a decade away from being truly operational. At this stage, Sukhoi has commenced a concurrent program of a single engine LO fighter. The irony is they don't have the money to complete the Su-57 development and they are starting on a whole other program. And they are looking for a scapegoat to fund the development of the Su-75.

IMVHO, two possibilities exist here;

1) Sukhoi is using this program to further the development of the Su-57. They will dangle the carrot of an affordable 5th generation (at least their interpretation of it) single engine LO fighter and use those funds to further develop the Su-57. The Su-57 is their counter to the F-22 and the F-35.

2) Sukhoi is actually serious about developing a single engine LO fighter, to complement the larger Su-57. But they don't have the money to fund the program. So they conducted a marketing show, announced a new fighter to the world and are now actively seeking a buyer who is willing to fund the development. Once the development is completed, the Russian Air Force will purchase it along with the Su-57. Just like how the MiG-29 and Su-27 were developed in the 1970s and then inducted in the 1980s.

Either option is not good for India. We wasted $250 million on the PAK-FA development and we got nothing in return. That same $250 million could have been invested in a Tejas line. I know that is easy for me to say in hindsight, but just saying. If we get into this mess, we will waste another $250 million (at minimum) and valuable time, before we realize we have a rotten egg on our hands. We are better off investing that money in the AMCA program.

China may not jump on this...they have their hands full with J-20 and J-31 and whatever other spin offs they have in the works. India is the only other country with some resources to invest. The worry for me, is this will end up like the Ka-226 acquisition when we have a better product on hand i.e. Light Utility Helicopter. The import lobby is still alive and strong!
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:...

We wasted $250 million on the PAK-FA development and we got nothing in return. That same $250 million could have been invested in a Tejas line. I know that is easy for me to say in hindsight, but just saying. If we get into this mess, we will waste another $250 million (at minimum) and valuable time, before we realize we have a rotten egg on our hands. We are better off investing that money in the AMCA program.
I was referring to the aircraft per se and not the monies involved. Agree with you 100% about putting the money on the AMCA (and TEDBF, LCA Mk2) development/manufacturing
Rakesh wrote: China may not jump on this...they have their hands full with J-20 and J-31 and whatever other spin offs they have in the works...
I will go a step ahead and predict that China will probably not go for it as an aircraft. They *might* go for some components if they feel they are worthwhile but even that seems very unlikely. Even the russians seem to have subtly indicated that by not featuring a chinese guy in the ad :)
Rakesh wrote:India is the only other country with some resources to invest.
Here I would point to Brar_w astute observation that the probable customer profile might well suit a wealthy gulf state, like for instance, the UAE. Even the Saudis are looking to diversify from oil and they might consider arms development to be a good investment (their abortive JV with Ukraine comes to mind), especially to cut down rival ummah member Turkey to size.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Rakesh »

Let the UAE and Saudi Arabia waste their money on this program. I wish them all the best :)
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by brar_w »

UAE's request for 50 F-35A's was approved by the US earlier this year and will likely proceed into a formal contract in the coming year to two years. I don't see any efforts to block it now in Congress (that it is approved) to succeed. The F-35A is interoperable with the other two fighters they operate, with their air-defense systems, and is cleared for most of the US weapons they have. KSA has a lot to risk if they sign up for a huge Russian project given the make up of their force and the threat of sanctions. Plus they are not financially constraint in any way and don't really operate any light figthers any more. If we assume that they want to take a dramatic step of adding a Russian aircraft to their tactical fleet, then they would probably focus on the SU-57 instead. The most likely Middle-East customers for this are Qatar, Turkey or Iran. Out of these Qatar can fund and buy, Turkey will likely want to partner given it has the local industry with design and production capability, while Iran will likely just buy and not fund development. Besides Qatar, I really don't see any ME customer willing to fund the program ahead of any Russian Air Force or MOD commitment and some firm timelines. If this stays a Sukhoi only project, and they fly a limited demonstrator in the next few years, I doubt we'll see a lot of movement. The track record of self-funded (without active host nation armed forces support) combat aircraft programs has been very bad historically. No one really buys them unless the host nation backs the project and has some skin in the game. Even with partners, the host nation is expected to carry the bulk of the development cost and risk. Despite having eight partners, the US still paid for more than 90% of the JSF's development cost.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by arvin »

^^^
Incredible they could come up with the nozzle design and the lift fan in the 70s.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Manish_P »

Fascinating to see/read up on these and some other projects (mostly abandoned) of the time. The cold war really made the scientists and designers push the boundaries hard.

Also underscores the importance of sheer persistence and follow through to completion.

They were also doing basic research in effects of shaping for stealth but the Americans saw the true potential and stole a march over them.

Of course, no denying that economics plays a very vital role.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Igorr »

Testing of a new blue water modular corvette with increased roll resistance:
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by chetak »

basant wrote:Just for the record.

India expected to seek new Russian stealth fighter amid ongoing border dispute with China
India will be keen to buy a newly unveiled Russian stealth fighter to help counter China’s forces along their disputed border, according to military analysts.

Earlier this week the Russian aircraft maker Sukhoi unveiled a prototype of its new “Checkmate” jet at the MAKS-2021 International Aviation and Space Salon outside Moscow.
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The Checkmate will cost US$25-30 million, according to Sergei Chemezov, chief of Russia’s state aerospace and defence conglomerate Rostec – a significant price advantage over the F-35, which costs at least US$100 million.
After the breakup of the USSR, their MIC has suffered a near fatal blow.

Russia has lost access to more than 80% of this MIC that it earlier controlled.

we have a romanticized view and opinion of the erstwhile USSR but as far as India is concerned, they viewed us as a colony and had plans to actually colonize us and control us via the commies whom they were funding with great zeal and hope.

the corruption and perfidy of Indian politicos suited their take over methodology and their money was welcomed in almost all corners of the political spectrum.

the Mitrokhin archives merit a careful second reading now to fully understanding what was happening and where we were being herded.

Russia's financial as well as the military spine has been broken in the sense that they can still design weapons systems but are unable to fund the research, development, and manufacture.

As their MIC infrastructure has waned, their ability to deliver quality weapons has declined leading to distrust and loss of markets. India remains one of their very few customers that is able to handle russian weapons under these difficult circumstances

The gorshkov + MiG 29K fiasco has caused even India to pull away from her once reliable arms supplier but the russkis still remain the only supplier that has leased out a nuke sub to India and also one that doesn't have an overt politically colored objective, unlike the amerikis.

The type of top of the line weapon systems that the russkis are willing to supply India with is way beyond what the amerikis are willing to do, no matter how good the Indo US relationship becomes

Sadly, the Su 57 is a pie in the sky as is the checkmate.
Last edited by chetak on 13 Aug 2021 12:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Manish_P »

That article is from a chinese mouthpiece and quotes unnamed military 'analysts'. No need to waste time on it.

China would like us to be tied to and remain dependent on the Russians (and others) while they try their hardest to develop their own independent MIC.

We can expect some of the usual suspects in India to also start chiming in with their expert analysis. And then the opposition politicos who will try and use it to block additional purchases of Rafale...
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Igorr »

Russia continues to peacefully reduce military spending, while actively increasing the production of exclusively defensive weapons systems.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by NRao »

3 dead, RIP. Prototype Il-112V Crash in Russia

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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Igorr »

Intensification of military drills on the Afghan border.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by jaysimha »

https://defenceview.in/red-alert-for-ru ... CjcnBszQjl

August 19, 2021 - Latest News, Russia
Red alert for Russia, 4 planes crashed in a row, this time MiG-29

During a training flight in the Astrakhan region, a MiG-29 fighter jet crashed.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Rakesh »

Check out the boost speed of this Russian ABM. If you blink, you will miss the launch.

One guy's comment of the video below....
Russian Scientist: How fast do you want this missile to be?
Putin: Meow :lol:

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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Rakesh »

Russian HYPERSONIC PRS-1M Is Unstoppable! It Reaches Mach 15 During Test Launch!

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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by kit »

Igorr wrote:Russia continues to peacefully reduce military spending, while actively increasing the production of exclusively defensive weapons systems.
why does the narrator so sound like Optimus Prime narrating the prequel to Transformers :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Igorr »

kit wrote:why does the narrator so sound like Optimus Prime narrating the prequel to Transformers :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Cuz these are the forces of goodness and light!
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Pratyush »



A discussion about the current state of Russian airpower and the threats that it faces and represents.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Igorr »

An analysis of the International Strategic 'West-2021' Military exercises in the Michael Kofman blog, the first day.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Rakesh »

S-400 is coming in December and the newer system is now being pitched by Russia to India.

India may buy Russian S-500 anti-space-weapon defense system in world-first arms deal, despite risk of US sanctions, Moscow claims
https://www.rt.com/russia/535027-india- ... se-system/
16 Sept 2021
However, the US has attempted to block international sales of the rocket system’s predecessor, the S-400, even imposing sanctions on NATO member Turkey for placing an order. The Pentagon has warned that, even in friendly hands, the anti-aircraft weapon poses a threat to one of its most advanced fighters, the F-35.

General Todd Wolters of the US European Command has said that the launcher would “attempt to exploit the F-35’s capabilities,” regardless of which side of the battlefield it was on. “You cannot operate an F-35 in the vicinity of an S-400,” he said.
Can someone clarify a bit more on what General Wolters is saying below?
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:S-400 is coming in December and the newer system is now being pitched.

India may buy Russian S-500 anti-space-weapon defense system in world-first arms deal, despite risk of US sanctions, Moscow claims
https://www.rt.com/russia/535027-india- ... se-system/
16 Sept 2021

good show.

this is well deserved payback for throwing India under the taliban paki bus as also a direct poke in the eye for uncle sam, the very same recently retired sooper power don and looking for pension uncle sam

uncle xi may take his time processing uncle sam's pension papers as poor xi's plate is full processing afghanistan, CARs and now the aukus deal.

the ukus may well deploy their own ukus nuke subs, sooner than later, in this region, for the aussies to realistically train their nuke crews in a live environment whilst awaiting their own new build nuke subs.

like I said earlier, between bye-den's afghani paki tango and the aukus nuke sub deal, all alphabet soup agreements between India and the amerikis are off, effectively, as well as, politically speaking.

If the US pushes back, and India reacts, as it surely will under Modi, it will become a huge problem for bye-den as well as the aussies. we should also go slow on any proposed trade agreements with the UK

Indian mistrust of the western hegemony is firmly back on the table, front and center and not without reason and just cause.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by Pratyush »

I thought the S400 was a stop gap deal until the tier 2 BMD was not deployed.

With the S 500 we seem to be thinking that our ASAT is also not capable of doing the job.

Don't know if that is true.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by chetak »

brar_w wrote:The recent Aviation Week podcast on the Checkmate is good. It does not appear that Sukhoi has domestic funding to self finance the full development or testing for the platform, required to bring it into operation service. The Russian air force also doesn't not have it as part of its recently outlined modernization plan. So this means, someone would have to fund a pretty good chunk of development which could be a roughly a billion or so dollars for a major partner in case of co-development with Russian forces, or several times that if it is purely an export oriented program.
not to mention that there is no guarantee of any success and weaponization is not included.

and they still have piss poor smoky engines

But russki airframes are usually very well designed and pound for pound they do very well when stacked against a comparable western airframe.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:I thought the S400 was a stop gap deal until the tier 2 BMD was not deployed.

With the S 500 we seem to be thinking that our ASAT is also not capable of doing the job.

Don't know if that is true.
The S-400 is a class act by itself. It can hardly be called a stop gap deal.

the goras greatly fear this avatar.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by brar_w »

chetak wrote:
brar_w wrote:The recent Aviation Week podcast on the Checkmate is good. It does not appear that Sukhoi has domestic funding to self finance the full development or testing for the platform, required to bring it into operation service. The Russian air force also doesn't not have it as part of its recently outlined modernization plan. So this means, someone would have to fund a pretty good chunk of development which could be a roughly a billion or so dollars for a major partner in case of co-development with Russian forces, or several times that if it is purely an export oriented program.
not to mention that there is no guarantee of any success and weaponization is not included.

and they still have piss poor smoky engines

But russki airframes are usually very well designed and pound for pound they do very well when stacked against a comparable western airframe.
The mass produced Russian aircraft is the Flanker family (su-35 and 30 being the latest in it) which was a Soviet design, upgraded and enhanced by Russia but still decades old. Modern 5th and 6th generation designs require design, production and other coupling (propulsion, sub-systems etc) that do not exist as tightly on previous generation aircraft. Russia doesn't yet have a mass produced fifth generation program (Su-57 has delivered 1 or 2 serial aircraft and has had numbers slashed or timelines extended multiple times through its development) and if the Checkmate is going to show up in the 2030's (which is likely if it shows up at all) then it needs to be 5+ generation aircraft (like what the Europeans are likely to do with their post 2035 designs in FCAS and Tempest) as I seriously doubt there is going to be a large market for a 5th gen light market (AF's generally tend to want capability) and a cheap 5th gen may go the way of the F-20, or even Gripen C (with SAAB having to build the more expensive Gripen E to remain competitive).

As such they do need a program like the Checkmate that can be what either the MiG-29 or the orginal Su-27 was but for 5th or 5+ generation aircraft so that their combat aircraft industry can continue to thrive in the 2030-2060 timeframe w/o relying on Soviet legacy designs and manufacturing investments. It remains to be seen whether the Checkmate is the answer to that. Su-57 is increasingly looking like it isn't (given size, pace and probably cost) from an export perspective. I would think that their answer to that would be a moderately stealthy UAV/UCAV that could replace older 4th gen Soviet designed aircraft operational around the world, particularly in price sensitive markets. It would be superior to the Chinese offerings by being more survivable and would allow Russia to retain those customers for whom the Su-35 is too expensive or an overkill.
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Re: Russian Weapons & Military Technology

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:I thought the S400 was a stop gap deal until the tier 2 BMD was not deployed.

With the S 500 we seem to be thinking that our ASAT is also not capable of doing the job.

Don't know if that is true.
Sometime in the future the S500 will peacefully co exist with the DRDO ABM system :mrgreen:
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