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Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 17:49

Also he said that the seeker on their prospective missile is their own. Fwiw.
Last edited by Prasad on 16 Feb 2017 20:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 16 Feb 2017 18:03

Prasad wrote:Also be said that the seeker on their prospective missile is their own. Fwiw.

Sadly I am unable to recall the name but in a little platform near Brahmos was a company - which had 2 RF seekers on display - one larger and one compact. apparently the larger one was tested and validated for the land based Brahmos and the smaller one made for the air launched one. The story is that the previous director showed great interest - but the new one has dropped .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 16 Feb 2017 19:12

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/indigenous-nirbhay-missile-to-be-test-fired-again-drdo/articleshow/57168248.cms

Indigenous 'Nirbhay' missile to be test-fired again: DRDO
Indigenous 'Nirbhay' Missile to be Test-Fired Again in May-June: DRDO
IANS
First published: February 16, 2017, 10:10 AM IST |
The glitches in indigenous subsonic cruise missile 'Nirbhay' have been identified and the missile is likely to be test-fired again in May or June after incorporating changes suggested by a committee that probed the earlier test failures, the DRDO said on Wednesday.
The missile, with a range of 750-1,000 km, has been successfully test-fired only once in the past, out of the total four tests.
"Only one of the four test firings of the missile were successful. It does not mean the missile got ditched on its own, but it changed its course," Defence Research and Development Organisation's chief S. Christopher said at a press conference at the ongoing 'Aero India 2017' here.
"One of the tests was successful, while three were unsuccessful... we had to abort the mission as it went beyond the safe zone," Christopher said.
He said the suggestions of a committee that investigated the defect in the missile system have since been incorporated.
Also read: ISRO to Gift SAARC Members a Satellite Launch in March
"In May or June, we will have another test flight," he said.
Nirbhay was test-fired the last time in December 2016, but the attempt was aborted midway as the missile changed course. Due to fear that the missile could hit land, it was destroyed within minutes of take-off.
The first test flight, conducted on March 12, 2013, failed as the missile fell after only 20 minutes of flight.
The second test on October 17, 2014, was successful as the missile met all desired parameters.
During the third test on October 16, 2015, the missile nose-dived into the Bay of Bengal after covering only 128 km.
The cruise missile is expected to supplement the India-Russian joint venture, the supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, that can carry warheads up to 290 km.
The two-stage indigenous missile is six metres long, with a diameter of 0.52 metres, wingspan of 2.7 metres and launch weight of about 1,500 kg.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 19:51

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:Also be said that the seeker on their prospective missile is their own. Fwiw.

Sadly I am unable to recall the name but in a little platform near Brahmos was a company - which had 2 RF seekers on display - one larger and one compact. apparently the larger one was tested and validated for the land based Brahmos and the smaller one made for the air launched one. The story is that the previous director showed great interest - but the new one has dropped .



Data Patterns

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 19:51

Was that he name

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 19:51

Prasad wrote:Also be said that the seeker on their prospective missile is their own. Fwiw.


Nice

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 20:02

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:Also be said that the seeker on their prospective missile is their own. Fwiw.

Sadly I am unable to recall the name but in a little platform near Brahmos was a company - which had 2 RF seekers on display - one larger and one compact. apparently the larger one was tested and validated for the land based Brahmos and the smaller one made for the air launched one. The story is that the previous director showed great interest - but the new one has dropped .

Alpha i think. The person manning that seeker section told me the same thing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 20:04

Karan M wrote:Was that he name

:oops: yeah. Corrected.
And you're right. Data patterns is another seeker source.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 22:52

its very heartening to see all these small companies cme up and progress. each was deliberately brought up by drdo even while our resident russophile was busy yacking about how no privt firms are in defence.

in hyderabad, many small companies have sprung up to do component work for the missile cluster. progress is steady despite the decade + underfunding of DRDO and many local programs.
the big players with deep pockets have their place, eg the L&Ts, Reliances etc, but its these small firms doing a lot of the interesting stuff. and they are striking it big in JVs too. Alpha head is ex-BEL head. And for all purposes it seems t have more JVs going than a DPSU.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 17 Feb 2017 01:13

Good luck to DRDO for the Nirbhay. Lets make this count.A subsonic missile is needed even if supersonic and hypersonic missiles are coming soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 02:34

^^ besides whic nirbhay is homegrown. not dependent on russian IPR and as such costs will be spread locally.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 17 Feb 2017 02:41

Nirbhay should be a fraction of the cost.

Operationally, the way point navigation system of a sub-sonic missile will allow a salvo with complex trajectories that will be near impossible to defend against.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 17 Feb 2017 09:58

Is BDL displaying their new in house developed Radio controlled ATGM?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 17 Feb 2017 09:59

Karthik S wrote:If BrahMos gets to 800KM, Nirbhay will not be of much use on Indian Naval Ships, unless it has range of 2000KM.


There is a view that max ideal conditions straight line range of Nirbhay is 3500km+

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2017 11:54

No. Currently Nirbhay has a range of near about 1100 kms. To get 2000+ km we have to miniaturize many internal parts.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2017 12:38

Earlier, I had said that QRSAM is based on Astra. This was based on the schematic diagram from one tender and the fact that DRDL is actually using Astra's airframe for the desi meteor equivalent. Funny thing is many reporters parroted the same as their exclusives, even copied the picture I had first presented here. :rotfl:

I now believe, I was wrong. It is slightly larger than Astra. It is close to 200 kgs in weight and 4.4 mtrs in length. Also, more details on NGARM and a noncylindrical cruise vehicle that DRDL is developing. But, that will be tomorrow. Got to run now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2017 13:00

So only proj missing is a cheap box of iron dome things..remarkably sophisticated dont let its size be an indicator of its deadliness. That would take care of 80% of what the tsp cheen combo can afford to throw at tactical targets...backed by qrsam and akash

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 17 Feb 2017 13:06

Aren't we developing more than one ARM?
Anyway, that xrsam is an extended range/vlrsam.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 17 Feb 2017 13:23

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2016121510 ... hina-arms/
ndia, China Facing Off in Military Cooperation Race in SE Asia

The report says that BMos missiles will be sold. Another article says that despite the "warning" from China about missile sales to the Viets,India is continuing talks for the sale of Akash SAMs,which may also be sold to the Indonesians.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nukavarapu » 17 Feb 2017 13:24

Any more information about the indigenous IIR seeker tested for the first time recently in ballistic defense?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 14:01

Indranil wrote:Earlier, I had said that QRSAM is based on Astra. This was based on the schematic diagram from one tender and the fact that DRDL is actually using Astra's airframe for the desi meteor equivalent. Funny thing is many reporters parroted the same as their exclusives, even copied the picture I had first presented here. :rotfl:

I now believe, I was wrong. It is slightly larger than Astra. It is close to 200 kgs in weight and 4.4 mtrs in length. Also, more details on NGARM and a noncylindrical cruise vehicle that DRDL is developing. But, that will be tomorrow. Got to run now.


Indranil, time to make a new program with some name and making it quasi ridiculous claim which MSM picks up. Ypu'll know who rips it off. But you will have to keep deleting posts following it becoz BR members may not fall for it and inadvertently let it out.

I am reminded of NSN series reports.
http://bositiveneuj.blogspot.in/2009/05 ... s.html?m=1
http://bositiveneuj.blogspot.in/2007/02 ... n.html?m=0

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 17 Feb 2017 14:21

Nirbhay has larger payload and will probably be much cheaper compared to Brahmos if produced in large enough numbers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 15:53

Nirbhay can be a game changer because it can be made to loiter.. it can actually shut down AD networks if equipped with an ARM sensor (anyhow in the works for NGARM) and also a terminal homer + IRNSS for last minute fix. A very low flying long range subsonic cruise system brings so many advantages.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 18:19

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QHt9GVAUa6Q/ ... giment.JPG

Each IA troop has its own 3D CAR! 6 troops in a regiment, and 2 regiments. Two HQ to boot! Note what appear to be NLOS SATCOM dishes at each level.
Some 8 3D CAR per regiment and 16 total.

This takes 3D CAR orders to an entirely new estimate.
16 (IA) + 30 (IAF- Akash) + 37 Rohini LLTR + 2? IN (how many P-28?). Add another 28 odd TCR for IA derived from 3D CAR.
So 110+ units of a single radar family!
Rajendra - 12 (IA), 30 (IAF), 27 IA as Swathi WLR. 69 for this family.

Akash has been a game changer for Indian R&D.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 17 Feb 2017 20:15

^^^

Great find! Finally, we see what an IA Akash Regiment comprises of.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kurup » 17 Feb 2017 21:07

K4 Test scheduled from 18 to 20 FEB

BAY OF BENGAL AND NORTH INDIAN OCEAN – CHARTS 31 308 354 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR DAILY FROM 18 - 20 FEB 17 FROM 0730-1130 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY

17-40.20N 083-26.34E, 15-02.05N 082-59.52E, 03-26.44N 086-26.01E, 04-54.30N 090-39.06E, 16-05.16N 086-00.63E, 17-48.36N 083-39.30E

AND 06-42.27S 088-43.91E, 10-41.44S 089-33.12E, 08-08.42S 096-53.65E, 04-30.43S 095-03.75E

2. CANCEL THIS MSG 201230 UTC FEB 17

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 17 Feb 2017 23:51

Regarding Brahmos range:
Existing 290 km missile under software modification becomes
450 km in Hi-Lo profile
600 km in Hi-Hi profile
In future iterations it becomes more likely
800/850 km in Hi-Lo profile
Without saying it automatically have extended ranges in Hi-Hi profile.

Could anyone recall 1000 km Brahmos project came in the news sometime back?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 18 Feb 2017 00:22

Targeting is the key. Need lots of choppers and LRMP's for it to be effective.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 18 Feb 2017 00:34

With software modification all existing stocks of 290 km range Brahmos become 450 km range missile.
Once 850 km range missile is ready all future missile will have that as default range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 18 Feb 2017 00:42

So is it going to be 3 types of AShM?

Brahmos-M- Mach 3.5-4 - 300 Km
Brahmos-II Mach 6+ - 800-900 Km
Shaurya based or Pralay AShM- 2000 Km?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 18 Feb 2017 01:10

There are land variants too. But all have their range curtailed to 290 km through software restriction. In general, with no restrictions all these become 450 km range missile (in Hi-Lo ). Once production of current order is over, it is believed all future products/variants have 800-900 km range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 18 Feb 2017 07:25

srai wrote:^^^

Great find! Finally, we see what an IA Akash Regiment comprises of.

Image


https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/832203065679814658

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 18 Feb 2017 11:54

BDL had announced a long(er) range wire guided ATGM and another Radio controlled ATGM recently. Can someone find out more info about it from BDL stall?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 18 Feb 2017 12:11

My take on indigenous Missile development programme of India:-

SAM

Manapd – Nil
VSHORAD & SHORAD – Nil But this role may be taken over by QRSAM or VL-AStra
QRSAM = Around 200-300kg missile with RF seeker
MRSAM – Akash, Akash-NG, Barak-8
Long range SAM- There were interviews by Avinash Chandra that DRDO is looking at 300km range SAM but thereafter no info. So will it be a variant of AAD?

AAM

WVR – Nil
BVR – Astra 1, 2 and Ramjet Astra
VLRAAM - There were interviews by Avinash Chandra that DRDO is looking at 300km range AAM but thereafter no info. So will it be a variant of AAD? Or Ramjet Astra or QRSAM?

ATGM

Manportable –BDL developed wire guided ATGM, RF Guided ATGM, CLGM/SAMO, Nag variant
Medium – Nag, Helina
Tank Launched - CLGM/SAMO
Air launched – Helina

Air to Ground

Brahmos, Mini Brahmos, Hypersonic Brahmos
Nirbhary and its smaller variants
NG-ARM
SAAW 120kg, NGLGB 250-450kg, Glide Bombs 1000kg
Air launched – Helina
Missing Category – Mid ranged missile in category of Kh-25/29/38

Ground to Ground

Pinaka-1,2,3
Prahaar, Pragati
Prithivi 1, 2, Pralaay
Agni Series
Sagrika, Shaurya Series
Brahmos,
Nirbhary

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 18 Feb 2017 19:45

Here is some info on Pralay. Don't know how reliable it is.

http://idrw.org/5-missiles-which-india- ... -pakistan/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 18 Feb 2017 20:55

Prasad wrote:
shiv wrote:Sadly I am unable to recall the name but in a little platform near Brahmos was a company - which had 2 RF seekers on display - one larger and one compact. apparently the larger one was tested and validated for the land based Brahmos and the smaller one made for the air launched one. The story is that the previous director showed great interest - but the new one has dropped .

Alpha i think. The person manning that seeker section told me the same thing.


Yes, Alpha Design Technologies. Its based in Indiranagar.

http://adtl.co.in/product.html

I have pics of both of their seekers, one for brahmos (Range 20 km, for terminal guidance) one for smaller A2A missile (no specific missile as of yet). And pic of the chart. I will post later. I think they said they will test it on missile in future. Also they said all the components are indigenous.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2017 23:14

Nirbhay fiasco – no need to be disheartened
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... heartened/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 18 Feb 2017 23:53

Kanson wrote:There are land variants too. But all have their range curtailed to 290 km through software restriction. In general, with no restrictions all these become 450 km range missile (in Hi-Lo ). Once production of current order is over, it is believed all future products/variants have 800-900 km range.



A 800-900 km land based variant of Brahmos could be problematic.

The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) prohibits development of land based missiles / cruise missiles having ranges between 500 and 5500 km by both Russia and the US. The Russians, who are shareholders of Brahmos, may view such a plan as a violation of their obligations under the INF Treaty; and even if they do not then the US most likely will as they are already hot under the collar as they think Russia has developed and deployed such a land based cruise missile, namely the Iskander K. Saying that the missile has a conventional warhead will not wash with the US given Russia's expertise in making small nuclear warheads.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2017 01:07

Rakesh wrote:Nirbhay fiasco – no need to be disheartened
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... heartened/



Nice morale booster article but mixes issues and does not explain why no need to be disheartened.

ISRO person in charge of failure committee is not ISRO in charge of Nirbhay.
the current fault was component out of spec which delayed wing deployment leading to roll and loss of inertial frame to reference.
I don't know the slew rate of the RLG being used which would indicate how it was overwhelmed.
Also shows no GPS aided guidance for that would have stabilized if it was there.
My optimism is based on:
- Quick failure diagnosis.
- Fault isolated to an out of spec component.
- Missile has flown successfully once to full range.

After the successful demonstration, rest are QA flights to weed out issues.

One thing Lt Gen Katoch says is Nirbhay is a multi platform missile with numerous warheads.

Its a must succeed for India.

And will happen.

No who is making the turbo fan engine for it?

Hope HAL is ready soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 19 Feb 2017 01:50

The founder director of ISU of ISRO is a very astute person. ISRO's fault finding culture is worth emulating in other mission critical systesm which has helped it improve over time.


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