Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[NRao]

Brahmos missile factory

[arun]

Brahmos missile factory

Many nuggets of information in that India Today article by Jugal Purohit:

What has been the impact of India gaining a seat, last year, at the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) - a global club it courted for years before being finally let in?

The man who answered was none other than the boss of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr S Christopher. He chose the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile BrahMos to make his point.

"The immediate impact," he said, "would be seen on the BrahMos whose range will be increased from 290km to 450km". The date chosen for the test is March 10 he said.

The air-launched version, where in a first-of-its-kind move, the 8.4m long missile would be fired by the Su-30MKI heavy bomber of the Indian Air Force (IAF), is in its final stage before test firing.

Going ahead, efforts will be made to extend the missile's reach to 800km as well as to bring out hypersonic, submarine launched and miniaturized versions.

Nearly 570km northwards from where Dr Christopher was speaking, in Hyderabad, a group of individuals seemed upset. The reason was a signed Parliamentary response by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar where, in March 2016 he declared that the BrahMos missile had 65 per cent imported content.

"There has been a gap in communication somewhere. The imported content is down to about 40 per cent," said one among them.

As on date, Russia supplies a majority of the equipment for the two stage missile. It includes the booster that takes the missile to speeds after which the engine kicks in, the ramjet engine that takes over from the booster, the seeker that detects the target and activates the 300kg warhead and the canister in which the missile is stowed among other items. "In another year, we can go to 70 per cent in terms of indigenisation but not beyond. We do not have an alternative to ramjet or seeker", said Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director Dr Sudhir Kumar Mishra who doubles up as the Chief Controller (Research & Development), DRDO.

"Random checks are conducted and for any item found unfit, the entire batch is discarded," a staffer pointed out. "We'd rather have the missile parts fail here than in the air, right," remarked Akula Harish, a Senior Systems Engineer. By its nature, the missile performs the unthinkable once fired. To do so it undergoes stress. To ready it for that stress, every electronic component undergoes a bump test which requires it to face severe jerks over 1 lakh times. Thermal shocks are also given to weed out weak points. "We subject the parts to temperatures from 200 degrees to minus 50," said a staffer.

All of this has had a role in ensuring that in the 54 flights of the missile, there has never been a major accident.

An excited air force has already earmarked 40 Su-30MKIs which will carry the BrahMos.

[Kanson]

There are land variants too. But all have their range curtailed to 290 km through software restriction. In general, with no restrictions all these become 450 km range missile (in Hi-Lo ). Once production of current order is over, it is believed all future products/variants have 800-900 km range.

A 800-900 km land based variant of Brahmos could be problematic.

The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) prohibits development of land based missiles / cruise missiles having ranges between 500 and 5500 km by both Russia and the US. The Russians, who are shareholders of Brahmos, may view such a plan as a violation of their obligations under the INF Treaty; and even if they do not then the US most likely will as they are already hot under the collar as they think Russia has developed and deployed such a land based cruise missile, namely the Iskander K. Saying that the missile has a conventional warhead will not wash with the US given Russia's expertise in making small nuclear warheads.

I'm not saying that but Dr. Christopher sir is.

To quote, "Going ahead, efforts will be made to extend the missile's reach to 800km as well as to bring out hypersonic, submarine launched and miniaturized versions."
From the above news link (Thanks NRao ).

INF is between US and Russia. That hypothetical scenario of yours will be of consideration if only Russia is planning to buy 900 km Brahmos. Russia already violated the treaty and it is very much capable of doing so several order more on its own. Why Rus needs Brahmos ?

[John]

Nirbhay has larger payload and will probably be much cheaper compared to Brahmos if produced in large enough numbers.

Has larger warhead but price difference between Brahmos and Nirbhay is about 3 crores at the moment. Nirbhay is currently projected at 7 crores but considering how price estimates are always quoted below actual cost. I would not be too surprised if production variant costs around 10 crores about the same as Brahmos. These costs already factor in initial orders and mass production.

Keep in mind we spent around 3-4 million USD for each harpoon so Brahmos is actually a cheaper Ashm.

[prasannasimha]

No news on the possible K4 test or whatever NOTAM that was in operation for 3 days

[vasu raya]

Being a member of MTCR allows you to have the 650mm torpedo tubes for Brahmos? maybe more Kilos

[John]

Being a member of MTCR allows you to have the 650mm torpedo tubes for Brahmos? maybe more Kilos

Brahmos will not fit in 650mm tubes and requires vertical launch system , Brahmos-M will fit in 533 mm tubes.

[vasu raya]

We do have inclined launchers on the Naval ships atleast the earlier ones, so its not the launch position but dimensions of the missile that preclude the TT launch?

sure John, Brahmos-M is down the line

[ramana]

No news on the possible K4 test or whatever NOTAM that was in operation for 3 days

When is last day?
Usually launch happens during earliest opportunity in the window.

----
Added 20 Feb is last day

[Indranil]

Earlier, I had said that QRSAM is based on Astra. This was based on the schematic diagram from one tender and the fact that DRDL is actually using Astra's airframe for the desi meteor equivalent. Funny thing is many reporters parroted the same as their exclusives, even copied the picture I had first presented here.

I now believe, I was wrong. It is slightly larger than Astra. It is close to 200 kgs in weight and 4.4 mtrs in length. Also, more details on NGARM and a noncylindrical cruise vehicle that DRDL is developing. But, that will be tomorrow. Got to run now.

NGARM (details from various tenders):

Weight :600 kgs
Length :5150 mm
Dia : 315 mm
Wingspan : 957 mm (wings do fold)
Cool fact: NGARM team's punchline: Dare to emit.



QRSAM (details from various tenders)
Totally confused . It is roughly the size and shape of Astra. May be slightly larger and heavier.

HSTDV (from 2016 tenders):

From the following image of a rig, you can see the cross section of the HSDTV


At its widest it is about 850 mm wide and 400 mm tall. Length of article is roughly 3 mtrs.

[vasu raya]

Here is an old video of the liquid fueled Prithvi launch, it takes its time to climb, maybe there is plenty of potential to add a reverse gear and use up the stocks

[John]

We do have inclined launchers on the Naval ships atleast the earlier ones, so its not the launch position but dimensions of the missile that preclude the TT launch?

sure John, Brahmos-M is down the line

Yes and Brahmos diameter is 700mm too big for even heavy torpedo tubes.

Inclined launchers are simply another to launch Brahmos where vertical launchers cannot be fitted in without extension modification to account for deck penetration or vessel simply is not big enough (Tarantul class). Even if it is launched incline it is launched from a pressurized canister. Only air launched Brahmos does not utilize canister launch.

[Austin]

A 800-900 km land based variant of Brahmos could be problematic.

The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF Treaty) prohibits development of land based missiles / cruise missiles having ranges between 500 and 5500 km by both Russia and the US. The Russians, who are shareholders of Brahmos, may view such a plan as a violation of their obligations under the INF Treaty; and even if they do not then the US most likely will as they are already hot under the collar as they think Russia has developed and deployed such a land based cruise missile, namely the Iskander K. Saying that the missile has a conventional warhead will not wash with the US given Russia's expertise in making small nuclear warheads.

I'm not saying that but Dr. Christopher sir is.

To quote, "Going ahead, efforts will be made to extend the missile's reach to 800km as well as to bring out hypersonic, submarine launched and miniaturized versions."
From the above news link (Thanks NRao ).

INF is between US and Russia. That hypothetical scenario of yours will be of consideration if only Russia is planning to buy 900 km Brahmos. Russia already violated the treaty and it is very much capable of doing so several order more on its own. Why Rus needs Brahmos ?

INF treaty does not affect Submarine , Ship or Air Launch Version , It only affects ground based system ......So Brahmos can work on 800 km range missile that can be jointly adpted on Sea and on Air Launch platform but India will be able to have a Land Based Variant of the same but Russian cant.

[prasannasimha]

No news of the 18-20 NOTAM test

[ramana]

Maybe some glitch delayed the launch of K4.

[vasu raya]

Yes and Brahmos diameter is 700mm too big for even heavy torpedo tubes.

Inclined launchers are simply another to launch Brahmos where vertical launchers cannot be fitted in without extension modification to account for deck penetration or vessel simply is not big enough (Tarantul class). Even if it is launched incline it is launched from a pressurized canister. Only air launched Brahmos does not utilize canister launch.

Not sure if that is with folded winglets, the requirement to launch Brahmos from Vietnamese Kilos still exists and until Brahmos hypersonic comes along, Brahmos-M may not be offered for export atleast not in a reasonable timeframe

[John]

^ That's folded diameter, I would take Vietnam buying Brahmos let alone for Kilo with a grain of salt they already have land based Yakhont missiles.

Only slim chance is Air launched Brahmos as part of Su30 deal.

[vasu raya]

^^^
http://idrw.org/seven-countries-mull-bu ... -missiles/

then there is vetting and culling, anyways, is integration of Yakhont on the Viet Su-30's an option now?

[Prasad]

Brahmos has been tested underwater by firing from a pontoon. Brahmos stall at AI had a video which featured this.

[John]

Yes it uses vertical launch silos and uses the same canister as ship launched variant. They been it pushing since last decade originally for Amur.

[Gagan]

That 1000 Km Brahmos range is sorely needed to bring the Chinese 2nd artillery corps located east of our NE states under coverage by our land attack missiles. They have deployed a multitude of their DF missiles there armed with N weapons to target Indian cities.

In the future, one hopes that once Nirbhary LACM comes online, with its extended ranges, will also join in to cover these areas

[Karthik S]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 260971.cms

To speed up deliveries, Russia's S-400 air defence system may come without offset package

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry may forego the offset clause to speed up deliveries of a Russian air defence system designed to deter Pakistani fighters and provide a missile shield for major cities, said people with knowledge of the matter.

India and Russia will start final negotiations on the S 400 air defence system next month with the deal value pegged at Rs 39,000 crore. The offset clause, which fits in with the Make in India programme, mandates foreign companies to invest at at least 30 per cent of the contract value in the Indian aerospace and defence sectors.

The S 400 is an advanced air defence system that has already been ordered by China, which is likely to get its first deliveries later this year. India and Russia began talks after the government accepted an air force proposal to purchase five firing units of the system to protect both the northern and eastern borders.

A top Russian official told ET that offsets could delay deliveries by as much as two years.

"As far as I have heard, there is no offset package for the programme. It is a strategic project and is very important for the two countries," said Viktor N Kladov, director of international cooperation at Rostec, the Russian state-owned company that controls sales of the S 400 system. "It should not be played around with some offset packages."

He said Russia would comply if India insisted on an offset package. But, he said, "It may delay delivery by one-two years and that is why a deal with no offsets package is the best choice."

According to analysts, the offset clause typically adds 10-15 per cent to the value of a contract on account of the domestic investment required. Also, the non-compliance rate is very high as companies find it difficult to discharge the offset within the rules.

Sources have told ET that while the defence ministry has approved the purchase of five firing units of the S 400 system for an estimated Rs.39,000 crore, two may be ordered in the initial phase. This could be increased based they said.

If the contract is signed within a year, deliveries could start by 2019-20.

"One year for the contract plus another two years for delivery. That will be the timeframe," Kladov said. "The Indian side invited us for negotiations in March. So, if we start negotiations in March, it will take another year to prepare for the contract. I do hope it will happen this year or maybe first half of next year."

China will likely get the system this year itself after signing up to be the first export customer. Designed to counter a variety of threats from hypersonic cruise missiles to unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), airborne early warning aircraft, stealth fighters and even precision-guided munitions, the S 400 is the latest in a range of air defence systems that have posed a formidable threat to western aircraft across the world.

[Karan M]

After two years some babu will discover offsets were necessary and suddenly russians will be livid they cant gypp us like they expected and things will get stuck.

[arun]

No news of the 18-20 NOTAM test

Maybe some glitch delayed the launch of K4.

Disappointed that after the Jan 29 to Feb 01 NAVAREA VIII Warning / NOTAM (Item 062 and 070. Clicky) for a some 3,000 km missile test with a splashdown south of the equator did not happen, the Feb 18 to Feb 20 NAVAREA VIII Warning / NOTAM (Item 112. Clicky) for a similar around 3K missile test with a splashdown south of the equator, also turns out to be a non starter.

[Karthik S]

I am viewing this news in conjunction with other news of quickly buying 20000 Crore worth of "emergency stock". Otherwise even a consideration of dropping offsets seems to signify how quickly we want this.

[Gagan]

No point speculating Karthik S.
It is what it is. Air Defense is sorely needed, china will have the system next year! Can't wait for 4 years before deployment at standard pace, more if MoD allows the babus to play havoc with procurement

[ranjan.rao]

^^gagan i think kartik has a point, there appears to be an urgency to get things done in some areas, artillery, ammunition and S400 definitely are these..my gut feeling is that govt is preparing for some limited action on the western front

[Gagan]

The stocks were severely depleted, lost to fires (?sabotage/?corruption) at ordinance dumps, very poor procurement during the last 10 years.
I also thought that something is afoot, this is a fire-purchase by India.

Having spoken to people in the know, fact is, that ammo stocks were DANGEROUSLY low due to several factors. GoI initiated procurment, got rid of several hoops that sellers had to jump through, grease several palms to sell.
The ammo dumps are only now starting to receive supplies. It is an ongoing process, will take 5-7years at least - at least to fulfill.

This is the sad truth.
For those who think there was no sabotage and corruption - there has been, and the two have been long interlinked.

[Singha]

the pathetic caving in on russian deals continues...after the failure of the wingtip pods and El8022 whose beans were spilled only now on BRF.

and this for a system which china will also get , a few years before us.

if we are to spend that big bucks better to pay israel to develop a Barak3 with elements from its davids sling and arrow programs and hook that into the barak land based battery systems.

[Karthik S]

The crux of the S 400 purchase seems to be the time factor. We are trying to get it ASAP.

[Bheeshma]

Why keep releasing NOTAM's if you can launch the bloody thing!! The K-4 has been postponed so many times, I am beginning to question if India has a credible triad. Mr Rout also has been quiet after he got the AAD/PDV test wrong.

[ramdas]

How do folks know here that this time's K-4 test is postponed ? On Jan 31, there was a lot of media noise prior to the scheduled test and a reliable source like Saurav Jha pointed out that the test was postponed. This time, except for people observing NAVAREAs, total silence. Nobody like Saurav Jha or Hemant Rout has said that the testwas postponed. Nor did the NAVAREA get cancelled before it was supposed to expire. Maybe I should remind members here that last year's two K-4 tests were reported 8-9 days later by Hemant Rout and even later by other sources.

For whatever reason, K-4 testing was/is being done in a hush-hush manner. The 2014 test during UPA days was the only time it leaked a couple of days after the test, but that was a leakier setup anyway. Also, if the K-4's are being fired from the Arihant rather than a pontoon, it makes sense to be very secretive and adopt every measure to throw prying eyes/sonars off track. More than the K-4 itself, no one wants any signature of one's own SSBN compromised.

[prasannasimha]

Plausible deniability is a military tactic. Some are saying it may have been a K5 MIRV launch. Lots of speculation

[Bheeshma]

True, it may have been conducted. But earlier at least they used to hide it as Prithvi launches.I suppose it difficult to hide a 3000 km test as prithvi.

[shiv]

How would we know if a missile was tested but not announced?

[partha]

How do folks know here that this time's K-4 test is postponed ? On Jan 31, there was a lot of media noise prior to the scheduled test and a reliable source like Saurav Jha pointed out that the test was postponed. This time, except for people observing NAVAREAs, total silence. Nobody like Saurav Jha or Hemant Rout has said that the testwas postponed. Nor did the NAVAREA get cancelled before it was supposed to expire. Maybe I should remind members here that last year's two K-4 tests were reported 8-9 days later by Hemant Rout and even later by other sources.

For whatever reason, K-4 testing was/is being done in a hush-hush manner. The 2014 test during UPA days was the only time it leaked a couple of days after the test, but that was a leakier setup anyway. Also, if the K-4's are being fired from the Arihant rather than a pontoon, it makes sense to be very secretive and adopt every measure to throw prying eyes/sonars off track. More than the K-4 itself, no one wants any signature of one's own SSBN compromised.

I too believe a test was done about which we might come to know much later through a leak. I was also wondering if the strategy is to issue a few fake NOTAM notices to mislead the adversaries who would be interested in tracking the launches and then follow it up with a real one. How short of a notice can a NOTAM be?

[sum]

^^ If it was cancelled, there would a 400% sure article from Rout mentioning that the test was help up <due to xyz>.

Silence even on that end means all options are possible ( has been tested/not been tested/undergoing some checks for glitches etc)

[Gyan]

So neither any ToT or offset with huge S-400 deal. Atleast they are not pretending its a JV like Brahmos import.

[Prasad]

Interesting that even while we have desi companies like Alpha design and Data patterns building RF Seekers for Brahmos, we get the 'still we are yimporting seekers onlee because local stuff not possible'. Wonder where the real issue lies.

[Austin]

So neither any ToT or offset with huge S-400 deal. Atleast they are not pretending its a JV like Brahmos import.

Its just an outright purchase why do we need offset , if we opt for offset the cost will go up proportionally like the Rafale deal and so will be the time to negotiate the offset.

As S-400 is based on Open Architecture framework with high level of modularity they will just plug it in with other other ADGES system of IAF