Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[JayS]

By 2030, India could become fully self-sufficient on air-delivered AAM and PGMs.

• Long Range Glide Bombs (LRGBs) 30km/100km (125 Kg and 500 Kg) -> 1000/year planned; replace Kh-29, KAB-500, Paveway-2, Griffin-3 LGB, SPICE-2000, AASM
• 600-kg ASM (NGARM, AShM, ASM) -> 1000+ units estimate; replace kh-31, Kh-35, Kh-59, Harpoon, Exocet
• Brahmos-A -> (450km/800km) 200 units intent
• Brahmos-M -> (300km) 200+ units estimate; replace Kh-35, Kh-59, Harpoon, Exocet
• Nirbhay-A -> (1000km) 200 units estimate
• Astra Mk.1 (CCM/BVR) (RF/IR seeker) -> 6000+ units estimate; replace R-73, R-77, Derby, Mica
• Astra Mk.2 (BVR) -> 4000+ units estimate; replace R-77, R-27, Derby-ER, Meteor

True. But will India also become self sufficient in newer weaponry increasingly relevant to 2030's battlefield. Or will it still be playing catch up.

That depends on whether we are launching RnD programs for next gen weapons in parallel or not.

[abhik]

Akash NG development should have be initiated around 10 years ago when the Akash Mk1 design/testing was completed and production started, instead we basically funded a Israeli system. Today we have the ASEA radars, C4I, seeker (albeit not the bleeding edge), propulsion tech (dual pulse motor) etc building blocks but we don't have the SAM system itself. Instead we are left writing checks to the Israelis/Russians for another 10 years at least.

[abhik]

http://www.defencetalk.com/russia-to-launch-serial-production-of-upgraded-tu-160m2-strategic-bomber-69726/

Blackjack mk2 production start in 2020 at 3 annually.
We should have nirbhay and brahmosA done by then as also garuda garudamma and saaw

We need to order 12 of these at 2 per annum and get ourselves a desi b1b

+1, IMO it will worth a lot more than S400s or PAK-FAs.

[srai]

By 2030, India could become fully self-sufficient on air-delivered AAM and PGMs....

True. But will India also become self sufficient in newer weaponry increasingly relevant to 2030's battlefield. Or will it still be playing catch up.

What newer weaponary do you have in mind?

Most of the weapons improve incrementally--better seekers, propulsion, materials, etc. Next 10-years, I don't forsee a quantum jump to something like lasers. Having said that, countries like India will continue to play catch-up until the time it can achieve parity with the leaders. Decades are being shaved off with each attempt. I read somewhere China and India could take a lead by 2050.

[Karthik S]

Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur
Russia successfully tests "Zircon" (Brahmos-2?) hypersonic cruise missile at M 8.0 - TASS

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4185331

[JayS]

Vijainder K Thakur‏ @vkthakur
Russia successfully tests "Zircon" (Brahmos-2?) hypersonic cruise missile at M 8.0 - TASS

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4185331

I think Russians have two Hypersonic programs running. One is only for themselves. One is where they will give us the rocket motor to fit it on Brahmos-2.

We also have two Hypersonic programs, but only one of them is for missile, other is for the Space applications.

[Gagan]

200 Brahmos numbers seem to be very small.

The IAF said 5000 + targets in Pakistan only and in 2008 time frame. In 2017 that number would have multiplied.
Is the IAF really wanting to take out a bulk of these targets? Or atleast 50% of them in a short war?

The number of PGMs, Missiles, sorties needed for this is Huge. Hope someone is crunching numbers on this taking into account the Navy's and the Missile Regiment's contributions.
If India goes to war against say Pakistan, then a certain percentage of the 5000 or 6000 targets need to be hit within the first few days to immobilize them.

[shiv]

If the IAF does not take on targets in hostile territory in war and missiles are used instead it is ruling itself out as a fighting force and will be superseded by other forces who can be just as capable of using missiles or UAVs.

As an aside - whenever I see people saying "Oh planes and pilots should not be risked for dangerous missions" I read that statement as one more blow against the concept of having an air force at all for anything other than transport, VIP and non VIP. Like Air India

[srai]

200 Brahmos numbers seem to be very small.

The IAF said 5000 + targets in Pakistan only and in 2008 time frame. In 2017 that number would have multiplied.
Is the IAF really wanting to take out a bulk of these targets? Or atleast 50% of them in a short war?

The number of PGMs, Missiles, sorties needed for this is Huge. Hope someone is crunching numbers on this taking into account the Navy's and the Missile Regiment's contributions.
If India goes to war against say Pakistan, then a certain percentage of the 5000 or 6000 targets need to be hit within the first few days to immobilize them.

That's what 30km/100km LRGBs are for. They are going to be mass produced (1000/year) and every IAF platform will be able to carry them. Brahmos-A, on the other hand, is a lot more expensive and can only be carried by 40 Su-30MKIs that are being upgraded; it would be reserved for high-value targets. The smaller Brahmos-M may see bigger orders.

[Indranil]

More information for the Akash NG missile.

1. The warhead is 45 kgs
2. They are going to make 20 warheads within an year from now.

[srai]

^^^
Is the Akash NG a completely new missile design?

[Yagnasri]

45 Kg warhead for a SAM? Is it not too big?

[srai]

45 Kg warhead for a SAM? Is it not too big?

Akash Mk.1 has a 60 kg warhead.

Blast is pretty big.

[Yagnasri]

GOD. I thought it is 15 Kg for Air to Air missiles. SAM seems to be different game then. They do not have weight limitations like AtoA missiles.

[abhik]

More information for the Akash NG missile.

1. The warhead is 45 kgs
2. They are going to make 20 warheads within an year from now.

Source?

[ramana]

Abhik why not look around on Google?
Indranil gave info use it. If he could post source he would have. Not like me.

[ramana]

Srai, Did SA-6 ever have a special payload in FSU service?

[Indranil]

More information for the Akash NG missile.

1. The warhead is 45 kgs
2. They are going to make 20 warheads within an year from now.

Source?

Assembly and Testing of Akash warhead

[Indranil]

^^^
Is the Akash NG a completely new missile design?

I don't think so. Otherwise they would not be so sure of fielding it in 2 years. But I have my doubts over it being the solid ramjet design of Akash Mk1. My theory is that the propulsion is borrowed from MRSAM and the other parts from Akash 1S. It will be a missile with a diameter of 350 mm. Just my speculations. Let's see.

[srai]

^^^
Diameter same as Mk.1 at 350mm.

[Indranil]

More details of Pralay's warhead has emerged: They will be in the 370 kg & 700 kg class.

Now wait for IDRW to write a report on this

[ramana]

More details of Pralay's warhead has emerged: They will be in the 370 kg & 700 kg class.

Now wait for IDRW to write a report on this

Do we know the design configuration details of the Pralay?
Stages, Nose fairing, launcher etc?

[Indranil]

Yes,

Pratikdas first uncovered it here.

Is Pralay renamed Prahaar/Pragati?

NAG is being renamed to PROSPINA?

According to this jig specification, Pralay's diameter is 740 mm, i.e. the same as Shaurya. Prahaar's diameter is 0.42 m.

I speculated a bit more here.

There seems to be a lot going on around ceramic radomes for Pralay, going by Google results for drdo.gov.in. Also, that all of this is being coordinated by RCI and not ASL or DRDL is bolstering my speculation that Pralay is a repurposed Shaurya - perhaps with a seeker now. Brahmos would then be the 300 km, 300 kg gatecrasher and Pralay would be the 700 km, 1000 kg dam buster.

Well, I think you are on the right track. There are a few more observations from my side.

1. The missile must be a version of an existing missile for going from project sanction to almost test ready (along with canisterization) in a matter of months.
2. That they are getting 2 integration rigs and close to 10 nose cone radomes means that most of the parts are coming at speed, i.e. from a production line, corroborating the above conclusion.
3. It is 9.038 mtrs long. Shaurya is nearly 10 mtrs, but with a booster. It is likely, that they are using Shaurya's canister.
4. While Shaurya's nose cone is very conical, the nose cone of Pralay is more blunted and ogival in nature. This probably means that this missile will be slower than Shaurya, and will spend more time in lower atmosphere.
5. The last part of section 5 of Pralay (about 1m) and section 6 will get a cylindrical jacket which will house the stabilization/control fin (again probably borrowed from Shaurya).

Same speculations with pictures from the same tender that Pratikdas uncovered appeared 4 months later at IDRW here

With the warning "Article cannot be reproduced without written permission of idrw.org in any form"

[krishna_krishna]

Srai, Did SA-6 ever have a special payload in FSU service?

.

No never. There were plans for SA-3/4 but they too were abanded in favor of high speed high altitude interceptors like mig 25\31.

[Karthik S]

Dinakar Peri‏ @dperi84 38m38 minutes ago
More
@indiannavy successfully conducts maiden test firing of land attack #Brahmos supersonic cruise missile. So far anti-ship in use @the_hindu

Not sure if it's the ER version.

[Nitesh]

It is ER version seen DDR (Delhi Defence Review) tweets.
Close to 600km range (Test was for 400km)

[sudhan]

Looks like the test for the NOTAM that vanished some weeks back.. Don't remember seeing a NOTAM for this one though. Strange. Probably the announcing of the results were delayed for some strategic reasons?

[JayS]

There was leaked videos of Brahmos tests at A&N where targets on beaches were hit. What was that..?? I can't remember correctly but wasn't it also Sea to Land test..?? Those tests were not acknowledged officially I think.

[jamwal]

Notam is not issued for cruise missile tests ? Or is it just the information to neighbouring countries?

[Gyan]

^^^
Is the Akash NG a completely new missile design?

I don't think so. Otherwise they would not be so sure of fielding it in 2 years. But I have my doubts over it being the solid ramjet design of Akash Mk1. My theory is that the propulsion is borrowed from MRSAM and the other parts from Akash 1S. It will be a missile with a diameter of 350 mm. Just my speculations. Let's see.

With Diameter of 340mm might be something like Sa-11. I think in comparison to MRSAM it might have much faster "average" speed if it's around 600-700kg with range of 50km.

[sudhan]

@jamwal:

So far, almost all Indian weapons testing over the seas end up having a NAVAREA warning.

Over 90% of the times, we see a corresponding news items for a specific warning. Brahmos tests were always promptly reported (except for one that JayS is talking about, the report was withdrawn)

[tsarkar]

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=161197

Maiden Firing of BrahMos Land Attack Supersonic Cruise Missile

Indian Navy successfully undertook the firing of BrahMos Land Attack Supersonic Cruise Missile from a ship today. This variant of Long Range BrahMos Missile was fired from Indian Naval Ship Teg, a Guided Missile Frigate, on a target on land. BrahMos Missile has been jointly developed by India and Russia, and its Anti Ship variant has already been inducted into Indian Navy. Majority of the frontline ships of Indian Navy, like the Kolkata, Ranvir and Teg classes of ships, are capable of firing this missile. Land Attack variant of BrahMos Missile provides Indian Naval Ships the capability to precisely neutralise selected targets deep inland, far away from coast, from stand-off ranges at sea.

This successful maiden firing of BrahMos Land Attack Supersonic Cruise Missile has significantly enhances the prowess of Indian Navy and has placed India into the club of select few nations.

The "maiden" headline by our I&B babu refers to maiden firing of LR version and not maiden firing of Sea to Land version, that was first tested 5th March 2008 as per BrahMos press release below.

http://www.brahmos.com/archive.php?page=13

[tsarkar]

Report of the 2008 test

http://www.brahmos.com/newscenter.php?newsid=60

The Indian navy on Wednesday moved towards acquiring a pin-point ability to attack targets on land with its first test of the land-attack variant of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

The 15th successive successful launch of the supersonic missile took place at sea off the Andaman and Nicobar islands at 10.30 am on Wednesday. This is the first time a land-attack variant of the missile is being fired from a warship and also the first sea-to-land missile test in the country.

The missile fired from INS Rajput squarely hit the specially created land target created in one of the islands of Andaman a d Nicobar. According to officials of the Indo-Russian BrahMos corporation, the missile met all flight parameters during its flight where it selected the designated target among the group of targets, hitting it precisely and destroying the target with its tremendous kinetic energy

The navy has already inducted anti-ship versions of the BrahMos on its warships including the Rajput and is integrating them into two other ships of the class. The missiles will also equip the three 7000 ton Kolkata class destroyers currently under construction at the Mazagon Docks Ltd, Mumbai.

"This mission is very important as it has established the sea-to-land attack capability of the formidable weapon system," a BrahMos corporation official said. The naval maritime doctrine speaks of influencing the outcome of the land battle from the sea calls for precision strikes on enemy command posts, airfields and infrastructure hubs from the sea.

The BrahMos being fired from the INS Rajput.The launch of the 300-km range missile took place off the coast of Andman Nicobar Island with the support of Andman Nicobar command. The command deployed ten ships, three aircraft and three helicopters for mission support. The parameters set for the mission were kept extremely difficult including the positioning of the target to achieve maximum output. The 100 per cent success of the launch once again demonstrated the tremendous capability of the weapon system, BrahMos corp officials said.

The 'universal cruise missile'-thus called for its ability to be launched from warships, submarines, vehicles and aircraft has already been inducted into the navy and the army. The air force variant will start to undergo tests next year while the submarine launched variant is still further down the road.

The launch was witnessed by Dr.A.Sivathanu Pillai CEO & MD of BrahMos Aerospace along with the officiating Commander in Chief of the Andman command Rear Admiral PK Nair along with other senior naval officers and defence scientists. The Defence Minister congratulated the Navy and team of scientists for the successful launch.

[arun]

Press Information Bureau (PIB) graphic on the test of Extended Range Land Attack variant of the Brahmos Twitter.

Reveals missile range is 400 km and that the test took place in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands:



From here:

Clicky

[Singha]

i recall seeing photo of atleast 1 past brahmos test on that island.

[SajeevJino]

By 2030, India could become fully self-sufficient on air-delivered AAM and PGMs.

• Long Range Glide Bombs (LRGBs) 30km/100km (125 Kg and 500 Kg) -> 1000/year planned; replace Kh-29, KAB-500, Paveway-2, Griffin-3 LGB, SPICE-2000, AASM
• 600-kg ASM (NGARM, AShM, ASM) -> 1000+ units estimate; replace kh-31, Kh-35, Kh-59, Harpoon, Exocet
• Brahmos-A -> (450km/800km) 200 units intent
• Brahmos-M -> (300km) 200+ units estimate; replace Kh-35, Kh-59, Harpoon, Exocet
• Nirbhay-A -> (1000km) 200 units estimate
• Astra Mk.1 (CCM/BVR) (RF/IR seeker) -> 6000+ units estimate; replace R-73, R-77, Derby, Mica
• Astra Mk.2 (BVR) -> 4000+ units estimate; replace R-77, R-27, Derby-ER, Meteor

Nice call, but not going to happen till 2050

1. Whats the status of Karutma and Garuda, that IAF lab developed, and DRDO's own 1000kg Glide bomb { Both same, I don't think so }
2. Exocet and Harpoon will stay till we get new birds { Jaguars and Mirage 2000 }, so even the CBU 105, Any desi programs to make CBU like cluster munitions
3. Brahmos ..hopefully, our only stand off air launched cruise missile
4. Nirbhay too, good progress
5. Astra ...IR Seeker, { is any works started }
6. Meteor is on the same line with Astra MK 2 ...


well more on that, Desi program like Nag could be given more fund to make it lethal, { if its lethel why Rudra scouting for PARS and LCH for Mistral }

[sudhan]

Awesome slowmo video of brahmos launch
https://twitter.com/shreyadhoundial/sta ... 2405050370

[jamwal]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/855730492825419777

Video of BrahMos land attack cruise missile test from @IndianNavy frigate INS Teg yesterday.

[shiv]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/855730492825419777

Video of BrahMos land attack cruise missile test from @IndianNavy frigate INS Teg yesterday.

The way the Brahmos turns from vertical to horizontal and shoots off its condom before accelerating never fails to impress me. This is the sexiest handling of a gilli I have seen after playing a lot of gilli-danda as a boy

[tandav]

Why does it need a initial protective nose cap... I have never been able to figure it out