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Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Katare
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Katare » 13 Feb 2017 05:19

Beyond 80km altitude the sky is black not blue so that hit to kill pic had to be something much closer to the earth cannot be exo intercept. The kill picture at those distance could only be a telemetry snap. Have we seen any high altitude interception picture in optical spectrum with or without blue sky from anywhere?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 13 Feb 2017 05:26

Good. The composite stage should help reduce the mass. I have never found specs for the weight of PDV, unlike AAD.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ranjan.rao » 13 Feb 2017 05:46

brar_w wrote:
was searching how does the detection of BM at long ranges occur because the missiles are way beyond horizon


Radar horizon is very very far away for a anti ballistic missile defense sensor. Outside of the very short range missiles you are talking about altitudes in the 100's of km's.

brar oracle, i was thought of paging you on this but thought of doing some noob search myself..haven't got much ..let the nanha mujahid do some work..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 13 Feb 2017 05:50

Just use one of these sites.
http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm
for 100 km its nearly 1300 km away.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 13 Feb 2017 05:56

That is obviously the radar horizon and works for radars that can see that far and are of course looking that high. Those will be your dedicated BMD radars. If you're planning to do AMD you will have to orient your radars to pick lower flying air breathing targets as well. Range performance given a CSWaP is also band dependent and the discrimination challenge you are trying to defeat. For very long range and search volume you will go for a lower frequency sensor while for best discrimination you would want a high frequency sensor.

High frequency sensors in turn require a boat load of power (for a given range) and are very expensive. Two large BMD radars within that trade space are the AN/TPY-2, that gives you the best discrimination at X-Band but isn't powerful enough to cover an extremely large threat area (such as ICBM profiles comping into western half of the US). For that the Stacked TPY-2 would have grown by a factor of nearly 3 and would have been too expensive. The compromise was to sacrifice discrimination and go for an S-Band sensor (LRDR) that gets the required coverage at an acceptable cost and technical complexity.
Last edited by brar_w on 13 Feb 2017 06:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cybaru » 13 Feb 2017 05:58

what is it that you do for a living brar? damn I enjoy reading your knowledgeable posts! I disagree from it from time to time, but you make excellent points.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2017 07:35

prasannasimha wrote:See the hit to kill image
[url]
https://t.co/8XdB0d40AB[/url]

That image is from Jerusalem post - Iron Dome allegedly..
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protecti ... lon-368907

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Feb 2017 07:35

Katare wrote:Beyond 80km altitude the sky is black not blue so that hit to kill pic had to be something much closer to the earth cannot be exo intercept. The kill picture at those distance could only be a telemetry snap. Have we seen any high altitude interception picture in optical spectrum with or without blue sky from anywhere?


That was my thought too....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2017 09:00

here is one of thaad taking on a scud type target in infra red




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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2017 09:04

I believe the YAL1 b747 laser plane had a IIR sensor on the roof with a range of "several hundred kms" picking up hot missile targets against cold sky in lookup mode. so this could have been used from a airborne platform to record these tests.

its on the roof

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2017 12:54

Indranil wrote:
ramana wrote:finally got rid of the liquid fuel Prithvi engine based on SA-2.

So PDV is single stage ABM missile? And goes to 120 km. i.e. ~400k feet

Great job.

It is two-staged, both solid. In the latest picture, you can see the two stages distinctly. I think what has also happened in the last test, and missed by all reporters is that in this latest iteration, the lower stage has become all-composite.

Image

Also note the front fairing separates to allow the IIR sensor to view the incoming target allows lower cost sensor. And no sapphire crystal window.
Another report said target was awry yet PDV engaged it. Shows enough energy margin to take on maneuvering targets.
Any details of incoming 2K target. It's two stage and launched from ship.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Feb 2017 13:01

Target is probably a modified Dhanush

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 13 Feb 2017 14:00

Aditya_V wrote:Target is probably a modified Dhanush


Two stage?
Both PDV and target are solid fueled.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Feb 2017 14:17

Modified Dhanush to be 2 stage solid fueled missile, any other thoughts Prahaar, Pontoon launched k4? or even better INS Arindham launched K4?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 13 Feb 2017 16:49

Singha wrote:I believe the YAL1 b747 laser plane had a IIR sensor on the roof with a range of "several hundred kms" picking up hot missile targets against cold sky in lookup mode. so this could have been used from a airborne platform to record these tests.

its on the roof


That's a modified Lockheed IRST-21 system. On the top they housed the active laser ranging pod. The IRST was to be on one of the wings iirc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2017 16:55

^^ are you sure ? the irst21 is seen on f15 and now f18 centerline pod. but I recall reading of the YAL1 sensor in AWST around 15 years ago when it was in his heydey. could it be the famed texas instruments IIR pod seen on the 14D bombcat? that fits in more with my timeline
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... yr5jtk.jpg

you are right about the distributed nature of the IR sensor...the roof thing was a ranging laser
https://i1.wp.com/www.jimonlight.com/wp ... /yal11.gif

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 13 Feb 2017 16:58

Singha wrote:^^ are you sure ? the irst21 is seen on f15 and now f18 centerline pod. but I recall reading of the YAL1 sensor in AWST around 15 years ago when it was in his heydey. could it be the famed texas instruments IIR pod seen on the 14D bombcat? that fits in more with my timeline
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/im ... yr5jtk.jpg

you are right about the distributed nature of the IR sensor...the roof thing was a ranging laser
https://i1.wp.com/www.jimonlight.com/wp ... /yal11.gif



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2114635#p2114635

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Postby prasannasimha » 13 Feb 2017 18:00

At 90 Kms sky is black for a viewer in space. Not for a viewer from earth with sun's light passing through the atmosphere. Think about it when I lift my head up during the day do I see black or blue? I font see a shell of black even when flying at 12000 meters in a plane. If you see any launch tracking and telemetry from earth the sky is blue during day time.

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Re: prasannasimha

Postby shiv » 13 Feb 2017 19:32

prasannasimha wrote:At 90 Kms sky is black for a viewer in space. Not for a viewer from earth with sun's light passing through the atmosphere. Think about it when I lift my head up during the day do I see black or blue? I font see a shell of black even when flying at 12000 meters in a plane. If you see any launch tracking and telemetry from earth the sky is blue during day time.

Actually when you zoom in to a distant object the sky looks darker and darker - almost black. Watch space shuttle launch videos. In fact dark background sky is true even for extreme zoomed in aircraft videos in Aero India when the sky isand clear

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2017 22:07

Peer up diagonally via window from a flying ac at 35000ft. The top part of sky is dark blue tending toward black.

At 70000ft mg25ish u2ish play i read its pitch black and one see stars above

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2017 22:17

Finally got to know the full form of the acronym PROSPINA: PROduct Support and Product Improvement of NAg missile system.
Image

Image

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 13 Feb 2017 22:18

Singha wrote:Peer up diagonally via window from a flying ac at 35000ft. The top part of sky is dark blue tending toward black.

At 70000ft mg25ish u2ish play i read its pitch black and one see stars above


This also shows the different colors



Last edited by brar_w on 13 Feb 2017 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 13 Feb 2017 22:19

^ Yes that is exactly what I am saying - the portion you are peering through dense atmosphere remains blue.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2017 22:29

^^^Is the above discussion related to "Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussions"? If not, does it belong here?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2017 23:03

The desi JDAM is nearing fruition. It was first revealed in Tech Focus a few years ago.

Image

Now, more details have emerged.

Image

Image

Photo credits go to Prasun Sengupta, but he has wrongly reported it as SAAW. It is definitely a kit for 450 kg HSLD. Would the people going to Aero India inquire if this is Garuda, or is it a separate project?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2017 23:04

450kg HSLD mated to the Griffin guidance kit.
Image
Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2017 23:05

Image

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 13 Feb 2017 23:07

Looks like the QRSAM systems will be mounted on the Tata 8X8s and the missile launch vehicle will carry 6 canisterized SAMs

Image

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2017 03:05

Interesting that Russian fuze
AVU-EtM is used.

What happened to ARDE developed fuzes for HSLD?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Feb 2017 09:12

Indranil wrote:Looks like the QRSAM systems will be mounted on the Tata 8X8s and the missile launch vehicle will carry 6 canisterized SAMs

Image

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta


Will these be based on the Astra?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 14 Feb 2017 11:27

Aditya_V wrote:Modified Dhanush to be 2 stage solid fueled missile, any other thoughts Prahaar, Pontoon launched k4? or even better INS Arindham launched K4?


Isn't Dhanush name for the ship borne missile launch pad stabilisation system for Prithvi ? I don't think Dhanush is a different missile from Prithvi.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 14 Feb 2017 12:57

What is the background of QR_SAM development? Completely in-house or part of some JV? How much does the missile vary from AKASH missile in terms of dimensions and weight?

BTW - from what I understand, QR_SAM came about because Akash could not fill the mobility related requirement. One look at the specs, especially the range part, and you see there is an overlap in performance. But with QR_SAM having the addition feature of scan/track on the move and fire with short-halt.

While Akash has been absorbed in large number by IAF, it is likely that IA might remain at 2 x regiments and QR_SAM might proliferate in IA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2017 16:06

MANPAD ATGM of 3rd Gen. 14kg weight with IIR seeker.


https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 8879566850

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 14 Feb 2017 19:30

JayS wrote:MANPAD ATGM of 3rd Gen. 14kg weight with IIR seeker.


https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 8879566850


See the bottom of the pic "Other projects undertaken": QRSAM, NGARM, SFDR, SLCM and XRSAM. Wonder what is the XRSAM ? And could SLCM refer to sub-launched Brahmos ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2017 23:01

^^ I will try to find out when I visit AeroIndia.

Meanwhile,

Saurav Jha @SJha1618

Anyway, ARDE says the latest guided Pinaka tests demonstrated a CEP of just 8.5 metres at a range of 65 km


This is awesome.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2017 23:05

rohitvats wrote:
BTW - from what I understand, QR_SAM came about because Akash could not fill the mobility related requirement.


And/Or the system response time..??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 02:19

rohitvats wrote:What is the background of QR_SAM development? Completely in-house or part of some JV?


In house

How much does the missile vary from AKASH missile in terms of dimensions and weight?


assume trishul dimensions, upsized for astra tech, namely active seeker, datalink, FOG, motor.

BTW - from what I understand, QR_SAM came about because Akash could not fill the mobility related requirement. One look at the specs, especially the range part, and you see there is an overlap in performance. But with QR_SAM having the addition feature of scan/track on the move and fire with short-halt.


akash will move to akash NG

While Akash has been absorbed in large number by IAF, it is likely that IA might remain at 2 x regiments and QR_SAM might proliferate in IA.


that's the intent but recent reports suggest akash may get a second look

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 02:19

MMSR has moved to the new QRSAM radar. Nice.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 02:20

BTW, 4 panels and 120km AESA, high power density and full coverage, no rotating stuff. great design from LRDE if they can pull it off.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 15 Feb 2017 05:47

rohitvats wrote:What is the background of QR_SAM development? Completely in-house or part of some JV? How much does the missile vary from AKASH missile in terms of dimensions and weight?

QR-SAM was taken up in house after the Maitri project with the French went nowhere. The first prototype is based on the Astra Mk1 missile. So, that should give you an idea of the dimensions and weight.

Image


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