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Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
rohitvats
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 15 Feb 2017 10:43

Karan M wrote:BTW, 4 panels and 120km AESA, high power density and full coverage, no rotating stuff. great design from LRDE if they can pull it off.


You're referring to the Battery-Multi Function Radar in the above diagram of QR_SAM? So, its an AESA. I was wondering where is the radar mast and antenna. Being an AESA explains it. What about Battery - Surveillance Radar? From the pic, it also looks an AESA.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 13:56

Rohit - this will be the BSR i think.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4eSFSI61w0Y/ ... MRSR-2.jpg
Or this:
http://i.imgur.com/7LVLgkV.png

BFCR is a variant of the second too. So they could make two variants - one higher powered (80 km) and second one (120km).
Second radar program progressed to a high level, then was subsumed into QRSAM program.

Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2017 14:04

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 3593582593

DRDO DG Christopher Raj further says that new blocks of the Brahmos could have a range capability of 800-850 km

Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2017 14:45

India to increase range of BrahMos missile to 450 km

http://zeenews.india.com/india/india-to ... 77387.html
Bengaluru: India will increase the range of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile to 450 km from the present 290 km, and a test is likely around March 10, DRDO chief S Christopher said on Wednesday.

The DRDO chief, however, denied any plans for increasing the range of the Agni missile, which has a range above 5,000 km.


This comes after India became a member of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in June 2016.

The MTCR is an informal and voluntary partnership of countries to prevent the proliferation of missile and unmanned aerial vehicle technology capable of carrying above 500 kg payload for more than 300 km. This prohibits member countries to give such technology to countries outside the club.

The range of the BrahMos missile, a joint venture of India and Russia, is 290 km, though it is capable of going beyond that range.

Christopher said a change in the software will be needed, after which the missile will be tested for an enhanced range of 450 km.

"We will tentatively test it around March 10," he said.

Besides this, the DRDO is also developing a second version of the BrahMos missile which will have a range of 800 km.

This missile, Christopher said, is likely to be developed over the next two-and-a-half years.


Asked if India will also increase the range of the Agni-V missile, which can reach targets as far Beijing with a range of over 5,000 km, Christopher denied it.

"We may not do it because it can antagonise someone," he said without naming any country.

The Indian Army has already inducted three regiments of BrahMos in its arsenal. All are equipped with Block-III version of the missile, which was tested last May.

The land-attack version of BrahMos has been operationalised in the Indian Army since 2007.

The fire-and-forget BrahMos has the capability to take on surface-based targets by flying a combined hi-lo trajectory, thus evading enemy air defence systems.

The inclusion of the powerful weapon system in the Indian Army has given it a distinct operational advantage to knock down any enemy target even in the most difficult and hidden terrains.

The BrahMos missile, having a range of 290 km and a Mach 2.8 speed, is capable of being launched from land, sea, sub-sea and air against sea and land targets.

BrahMos is a joint venture between DRDO of India and NPOM of Russia.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 15:35

"We may not do it because it can antagonise someone," he said without naming any country.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Gyan
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 15 Feb 2017 15:43

I have always said on BRF that Brahmos Range in hi-hi-glide mode will be around 1000km. As a thumb rule Ramjet missile has a range 3 times of the equivalent weight solid fueled missile. So Brahmos at 3 tons should have a range equivalent to 9 tons solid fueled missile. Russians have in any case claimed range of yakhont at 600km, wherein I think the last 40-60km is at very low altitude of 5-50 meters. Some time back there was some talk about developing a Brahmos missile variant with 900km range also. Putting all this stuff together with talk of 850km range Brahmos variant, my guess is that hi-hi-lo profile range of Brahmos will be 850km but hi-hi-glide profile range can be anything from 1000-1200km.
Last edited by Gyan on 15 Feb 2017 16:27, edited 2 times in total.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 15:51

>>Christopher said a change in the software will be needed, after which the missile will be tested for an enhanced range of 450 km.

"We will tentatively test it around March 10," he said.

Besides this, the DRDO is also developing a second version of the BrahMos missile which will have a range of 800 km.

This missile, Christopher said, is likely to be developed over the next two-and-a-half years.


..............

big news and lizard won't be happy with this.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 15:52

so brahmos - 290km
brahmos er - 450 km
brahmos xr - 800 km
brahmos mini - 290km
brahmos hypersonic - ?

Neela
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neela » 15 Feb 2017 15:53

Karan M wrote:>>Christopher said a change in the software will be needed, after which the missile will be tested for an enhanced range of 450 km.

"We will tentatively test it around March 10," he said.

Besides this, the DRDO is also developing a second version of the BrahMos missile which will have a range of 800 km.

This missile, Christopher said, is likely to be developed over the next two-and-a-half years.


..............

big news and lizard won't be happy with this.


Karan, with 800 km range, how will the initial cueing happen?

Chinmay
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Chinmay » 15 Feb 2017 16:00

Brahmos is basically Brahmos ER, right? From what I have read, MTCR prevented anything above 300 km, officially. Most people say that the missile can go to 450 km as is.

Austin
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 15 Feb 2017 16:08

Karan M wrote:so brahmos - 290km
brahmos er - 450 km
brahmos xr - 800 km
brahmos mini - 290km
brahmos hypersonic - ?


the 450 Km range Brahmos is just a software restricted one of the Brahmos we use , The Russian have used that in Syria and they had mentioned the range of 450 km for Bastion System used there, So as Christopher says its just a question of tweaking the SW.

The 800 km Range Brahmos is what I think would be the intermediate Brahmos with speed of Mach 4 , new engine and fuel but Ramjet onlee

Brahmos Hypersonic would be pure scramjet that would take about 8-10 years as Pathak had mentioned earlier

Brahmos Mini is 300 km range


Image

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http://kanchukov-sa.livejournal.com/7472822.html#cutid1

tsarkar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 15 Feb 2017 17:53

Neela wrote:with 800 km range, how will the initial cueing happen?

CARTOSAT-2 and successors. Note the resolution.

Image

arun
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 15 Feb 2017 19:22

NAVAREA VIII / NOTAM warning issued for what looks like a long range missile test as some of the co-ordinates are south of the equator for period FEB 18th to FEB 20th.

Presumably for a K4 SLBM test for which a NAVAREA VIII / NOTAM was issued end Jan early Feb and then nothing happened much to the chagrin of us BRFites.

May I request Kurup or someother kind sole to project co-ordinates onto a map and compute test flight distance?

NAVAREA VIII – WARNINGS IN FORCE AS ON 15 FEB 2017 ………………

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DTG 141001Z/FEB
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 112
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BAY OF BENGAL AND NORTH INDIAN OCEAN – CHARTS 31 308 354 INT 71 (.)
EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR DAILY FROM 18 - 20 FEB 17 FROM
0730-1130 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 17-40.20N 083-26.34E, 15-02.05N 082-59.52E,
03-26.44N 086-26.01E, 04-54.30N 090-39.06E, 16-05.16N 086-00.63E, 17-48.36N 083-39.30E AND
06-42.27S 088-43.91E, 10-41.44S 089-33.12E, 08-08.42S 096-53.65E, 04-30.43S 095-03.75E
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 201230 UTC FEB 17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

prasannasimha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 15 Feb 2017 20:26

Image

Karthik S
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karthik S » 15 Feb 2017 20:34

If BrahMos gets to 800KM, Nirbhay will not be of much use on Indian Naval Ships, unless it has range of 2000KM.

Neela
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neela » 15 Feb 2017 21:04

tsarkar wrote:
Neela wrote:with 800 km range, how will the initial cueing happen?

CARTOSAT-2 and successors. Note the resolution.


Thanks.
But if they want to take down ships 500km away, they need real time monitoring with satellites?
I can understand the last leg but find it difficult to know where their initial position information is going to come from.

tsarkar
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 15 Feb 2017 23:11

Neela wrote:
tsarkar wrote:CARTOSAT-2 and successors. Note the resolution.
Thanks.
But if they want to take down ships 500km away, they need real time monitoring with satellites?
I can understand the last leg but find it difficult to know where their initial position information is going to come from.

Ka-31 radar picket flying XXX km ahead of the ship

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2017 23:39

VK Saraswat had mentioned a range of about 600km for the bmos some time ago.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2017 23:42

Karthik S wrote:If BrahMos gets to 800KM, Nirbhay will not be of much use on Indian Naval Ships, unless it has range of 2000KM.

Not necessarily. Note that most ofc the bmos flight profile at such ranges will be high altitude making it targettable for most advanced SAMs. Nirbhay usp lies in terrain hugging modes for longer distances i think.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 00:37

Should not be missed. Photo credit: Writetake

Image

Image

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 01:28

This Aero-India-17 is turning out to be a great desi fest. DRDO now has desi-competition for MPATGM. Here is VEM's entry called Jasmine. Looks like it is an in house development based on their huge contributions in NAG, Helina, CLGM and possibly even in MPATGM.

Image

L&T has also entered an agreement with MBDA to license manufacture the latter's ATGMs.

VEM is showcasing LG kits which look very similar to the discontinued Sudarshan kits.

Image

John
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 16 Feb 2017 02:22

Cain Marko wrote:
Karthik S wrote:If BrahMos gets to 800KM, Nirbhay will not be of much use on Indian Naval Ships, unless it has range of 2000KM.

Not necessarily. Note that most ofc the bmos flight profile at such ranges will be high altitude making it targettable for most advanced SAMs. Nirbhay usp lies in terrain hugging modes for longer distances i think.

Without a constant data link Nirbhay or even cancelled anti ship variant of tomahawk, would need to fly high in order to scan for targets. Because even if target is cued from AEW or SAT platform at launch the target would moved fair distance in a hour+.

brar_w
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 16 Feb 2017 02:53

The Current TLAM has a 2 way UHF data link (SATCOM), LRASM has SATCOM plus a LOS data link. Very long range anti ship attack only comes into the picture (viability) if you have your targeting and ROE sorted out - i.e. networked attack. A TLAM or a even a LRASM (300-500 nautical mike range) is essentially picking off the USNs distributed network and targeting opportunity.

John
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 16 Feb 2017 04:26

Unless you maintain complete air superiority those SATCOM links will get jammed and rendered useless. Also the datalink with airborne platform requires line of sight which would require the missile to fly at high altitude. So hence you need a onboard seeker to fall back on.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 16 Feb 2017 04:48

John wrote:Unless you maintain complete air superiority those SATCOM links will get jammed and rendered useless. Also the datalink with airborne platform requires line of sight which would require the missile to fly at high altitude. So hence you need a onboard seeker to fall back on.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2116349#p2116349

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Feb 2017 06:04

John wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Not necessarily. Note that most ofc the bmos flight profile at such ranges will be high altitude making it targettable for most advanced SAMs. Nirbhay usp lies in terrain hugging modes for longer distances i think.

Without a constant data link Nirbhay or even cancelled anti ship variant of tomahawk, would need to fly high in order to scan for targets. Because even if target is cued from AEW or SAT platform at launch the target would moved fair distance in a hour+.


I was thinking more of long range ( say, 800km) static targets - not moving ones. Say a HVA is being protected by an s-300 type. Nirbhay can be programmed to fly at particular profile to avoid this. Otoh, Bmos will have to fly hi-hi-lo thereby exposing itself to s-300/400 interception at high altitude at great distances from target.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 16 Feb 2017 06:31, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 06:21

Indranil wrote:This Aero-India-17 is turning out to be a great desi fest. DRDO now has desi-competition for MPATGM. Here is VEM's entry called Jasmine. Looks like it is an in house development based on their huge contributions in NAG, Helina, CLGM and possibly even in MPATGM.

Image

L&T has also entered an agreement with MBDA to license manufacture the latter's ATGMs.

VEM is showcasing LG kits which look very similar to the discontinued Sudarshan kits.

Image


Indranil - VEM is build to print. Those may be representative capabilities not actual systems. BTW they were set up IIRC by ex-DRDL ad other guys to machine stuff for DRDO in Hyderabad

abhik
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby abhik » 16 Feb 2017 06:58

Indranil wrote:This Aero-India-17 is turning out to be a great desi fest. DRDO now has desi-competition for MPATGM. Here is VEM's entry called Jasmine. Looks like it is an in house development based on their huge contributions in NAG, Helina, CLGM and possibly even in MPATGM.

Image

L&T has also entered an agreement with MBDA to license manufacture the latter's ATGMs.

VEM is showcasing LG kits which look very similar to the discontinued Sudarshan kits.

Image

What is the Army's involvement in all this?

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 16 Feb 2017 11:05

Karan M wrote:Indranil - VEM is build to print. Those may be representative capabilities not actual systems. BTW they were set up IIRC by ex-DRDL ad other guys to machine stuff for DRDO in Hyderabad

That's what I knew as well. But this "Jasmine" ATGM is not similar to the schematic of the MPATGM that DRDO has released. Kind of looks like CLGM with mid-body wings.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 13:59

The atgm is an in house dev progressing on their Nag involvement. The lgb is just a dummy. Don't think they have even a prototype yet. They're pushing it to the IAF and army and getting sounded out but got nothing concrete on involvement or td/prototype dev so far.

Amoghvarsha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Feb 2017 14:46

If the 450km Brahmos test is successful,can the already produced Brahmos be modified in a short time to attain that range?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 16 Feb 2017 14:57

Not clear. Some reports have claimed existing missiles can be tweaked with SW change. Others have claimed new missile. Dimensions look similar to the Russian missile. My guess is just SW change.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 16 Feb 2017 15:03

Even if it is SW change they will need to test it upto the new range to see if its properties maintain. Unless they have already done so and never announced the real range of the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 15:30

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Indranil - VEM is build to print. Those may be representative capabilities not actual systems. BTW they were set up IIRC by ex-DRDL ad other guys to machine stuff for DRDO in Hyderabad

That's what I knew as well. But this "Jasmine" ATGM is not similar to the schematic of the MPATGM that DRDO has released. Kind of looks like CLGM with mid-body wings.

Image


Indranil, that's what. I suspect these are just "demo" programs to make potential partners such as those scouting for offset partners to look at VEMs capabilities. They may not be full blown tangible programs for the services, unless they have tied up with a foreign partner for critical assemblies.

The key firms to watch in terms of indigenous capabilities are Astra, Datapatterns for systems development above and beyond the usual.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 15:31

Prasad wrote:The atgm is an in house dev progressing on their Nag involvement. The lgb is just a dummy. Don't think they have even a prototype yet. They're pushing it to the IAF and army and getting sounded out but got nothing concrete on involvement or td/prototype dev so far.


Thanks prasad. Is this info from the VEM guys @ their stall? It will take a lot of work on the guidance front for a MPATGM - wonder how they are handling that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 16 Feb 2017 15:57

Karan, if the seeker tech is masterd by Indian labs, for NAG then the lab should be able to manage the range just fine.

The key words are if and mastered.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 17:24

KaranM,
Person at the stall said so. To me it looked like a statement of capability to draw in the AF and then put more efforts into developing them in a full fledged manner. They appear to want to be aan alternative to the psus in these products.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Feb 2017 17:43

Prasad thats a very positive devpt if it happens.

Pratyush - depends on the seeker. If its a LGB type SAL seeker then presumably VEM may be able to source it from within India or make it themselves. The IIR based ones depend on TOT from DRDO which has gone to BDL so far, and depend on imported IIR sensor (the detector) from France.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 17:48

On the Brahmos front, DRDO head said that it's a small software change and next year is on March 10 for extended range.

IMO he's just saying it loud what we all thought about the 290km range which was fixed due to mtcr regulations.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 16 Feb 2017 17:49

Also he said that the seeker on their prospective missile is their own. Fwiw.
Last edited by Prasad on 16 Feb 2017 20:02, edited 1 time in total.


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