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Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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ramdas
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramdas » 30 Mar 2017 02:05

Watched the CNBC TV18 programme on TSI in youtube. The statement about the 48 trailer order for Agni-5 does not look consistent. On one hand, the narrator says that 48 trailers are to be built presently. OTOH he says that the first trailer is to be delivered by the company in 21 weeks, followed by one trailer every 13 weeks, with the initial order being fulfilled in 3-4 years. At 13 weeks per trailer, the rate of production is 4 trailers p.a. This gives about 16 trailers for the initial order. Maybe 48 trailers is the overall order meant to be fulfilled over 12 years or so.

bhavani
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby bhavani » 30 Mar 2017 02:56

Austin wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Can spike ident8fy the target between 11 am to 3 pm during summers in the Indian desert at full range.


Yes it cleared all test conducted by IA.


Gaza and west bank get pretty hot too comparable to Thar, Israeli weapons probably win weather tests because Israelis experience extreme weather similar to us.

Ultimate ATGM Test - Hit a stone pelter running randomly across a hot Gaza street

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ranjan.rao » 30 Mar 2017 03:09

^^^would a human body hit 50C in summers? Had that been the case their fertility rates would have far lower :(. Anyways why waste a ATGM for what a bullet would do

JTull
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 30 Mar 2017 16:54

ramdas wrote:Watched the CNBC TV18 programme on TSI in youtube. The statement about the 48 trailer order for Agni-5 does not look consistent. On one hand, the narrator says that 48 trailers are to be built presently. OTOH he says that the first trailer is to be delivered by the company in 21 weeks, followed by one trailer every 13 weeks, with the initial order being fulfilled in 3-4 years. At 13 weeks per trailer, the rate of production is 4 trailers p.a. This gives about 16 trailers for the initial order. Maybe 48 trailers is the overall order meant to be fulfilled over 12 years or so.


Can you pls post the link?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Mar 2017 17:09

ranjan.rao wrote:^^^would a human body hit 50C in summers? Had that been the case their fertility rates would have far lower :(. Anyways why waste a ATGM for what a bullet would do


humans will collapse and die if the bodys core temp deviates by more than -2C +2C from the usual . all our hot and cold weather clothing is to preserve that temp at body core. kind of like whatever be the speed of airplane the compressor stages and shock cones are supposed to ensure only a certain speed range of airflow into combustion chamber.

ranjan.rao
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ranjan.rao » 30 Mar 2017 19:52

Singha sir, perhaps the points got lost, my points were humans should have significant temperature difference and hence should pose an easy target, also they are small, agile(i guess definitely more than a tank, i am yet to see tank agility in person, but size makes me think so, i would assume it would be). These things coupled with the fact that an ATGM being costly, it is not worth wasting an ATGM. Anyways thanks for your help, i didnt know that fact. I thought at high velocities the airflow would be faster.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Mar 2017 22:09

Singha wrote:
ranjan.rao wrote:^^^would a human body hit 50C in summers? Had that been the case their fertility rates would have far lower :(. Anyways why waste a ATGM for what a bullet would do


humans will collapse and die if the bodys core temp deviates by more than -2C +2C from the usual . all our hot and cold weather clothing is to preserve that temp at body core.

This is basically correct although higher temperatures are more likely to be fatal sooner than lower ones. Very high fever can touch 40 deg C (+3). Cooling is survivable. Controlled low core temperatures are used in open heart surgery as low as 25 deg C. Human organs are transported at lower temperatures - but freezing is a no no as ice crystals will kill cells. However near drowning in very cold water has resulted in surprising allahoakbar survivals.

That said - falling into the North Sea with a temp of 10 deg C means death in 10 minutes. Give me the sea off Goa any day.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 31 Mar 2017 14:03

Image
Ground based fairing separation tests with the booster for @DRDO_India's Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle
Courtesy: DRDO pic.twitter.com/xbQJjVVND1

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/847685313312940037

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 31 Mar 2017 22:56

Image

shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 01 Apr 2017 08:28

^^Nice.

Exactly as predicted

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 02 Apr 2017 12:10

I kept reading the name "Ring Laser Gyro" wrt Agony.

Here is a nice video on Ring Laser Gyros. Meant for non engineers or people with lousy teeth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnN6vXIo_d0

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kurup » 02 Apr 2017 12:13

arun wrote:
kurup wrote:New Warnings for March 31 / April 1

Thanks Kurup for the effort of plotting the exclusion zone and computing the length 8) .

Concur with Sudhan. My guess is also that it is a test for the ship launched version of the 450 km extended range Brahmos.


Any news about the test ??

The warning was removed yesterday itself ....... so either they tested it and kept it secret or postponed .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karthik S » 04 Apr 2017 10:05

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... vy/613560/

The government today approved procurement of a fresh batch of Barak surface-to-air missiles for Naval warships to enhance India’s maritime capability in view of the changing security dynamics in the Indian Ocean region. A meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, approved capital acquisition proposals totalling over Rs 860 crore, including for the purchase of Barak missiles. The missiles will be procured under ‘Buy Global’ category from Rafael Advance Defense Systems Limited of Israel at an approximate cost of around Rs 500 crore, defence ministry sources said. Almost all ships of the navy will be equipped with these missiles.
The DAC, which is Defence Ministry’s highest decision making body for capital acquisition, also accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for procurement of equipment such as underwater robot to counter mines in the sea. The equipment is being procured as a repeat order with ‘buy global’ categorisation at a cost of approximately Rs 311 crore.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 04 Apr 2017 14:20

Is this fresh batch B-1 or B-8? Most of our new ships will be armed with B-8,as B-1 will not be able to effectively handle current cutting edge SSMs and future supersonic ones.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 04 Apr 2017 15:28

The Radar Beam guidance system of Trishul suffered difficulties and failed/became outdated. On the other hand the command guidance system of Akash is very successful and the similar guidance system is used by Barak-1. So why command guidance system was not ported into Trishul? Why thousands of crores of imports are being made from Israel? It seems that whenever a foreign system is offered/procured, domestic progress automatically and conveniently fails. Example Rustom-2, Arjun-2, Prahaar, Nag, Milap Carbine etc

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 04 Apr 2017 15:32

>>The Radar Beam guidance system of Trishul suffered difficulties and failed/became outdated.

Actually it was proven in trials and redesigned. Worked for AF and Army. Only over sea operation for IN was to be proven but project was cancelled by then and Akash carried forward the work for over sea operation.
IA and IAF said they wanted fire and forget systems so Trishul was canned. Of course, later on, we are trialing RBS-70 type missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 04 Apr 2017 15:44

Reading the above i can begin to understand the spyder purchase. But am not quite able to place the qrsam or the maitri in the mix. As the later 2 appear to be the name for a system that meets the same broad requirements.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 04 Apr 2017 16:55

Gyan wrote:The Radar Beam guidance system of Trishul suffered difficulties and failed/became outdated. On the other hand the command guidance system of Akash is very successful and the similar guidance system is used by Barak-1. So why command guidance system was not ported into Trishul? Why thousands of crores of imports are being made from Israel? It seems that whenever a foreign system is offered/procured, domestic progress automatically and conveniently fails. Example Rustom-2, Arjun-2, Prahaar, Nag, Milap Carbine etc


Indian Navy gave lot of chance to DRDO to fix the Trishul issue , So much so it commisioned the P-16A without its primary SAM so that when Trishul is available it can be installed. For more than 2-3 years P-16A was without SAM.

DRDO tried hard but could not fix the guidance issue though that was not the only issue but was critical one. ( IN was also not happy with Flycatcher performance to track low level target in sea environment )

Meanwhile news came of PN Harpoon/Exocet was labelled as critical threat and IN need PDSM urgently and critically , Barak-1 was the only available proven system , Still then IN procured small numbers of Barak-1 for Viraat and other ships till Trishul became available but they could not fix the issue and then IN went to Barak-1 big time.

Barak-1 is excellent system and along with AK-630M is standard CIWS for IN now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 04 Apr 2017 17:19

kurup wrote:
arun wrote:


Any news about the test ??

The warning was removed yesterday itself ....... so either they tested it and kept it secret or postponed .


Thanks for pointing out removal of warning. Sadly I am more inclined to the idea that this was a postponement.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 04 Apr 2017 17:22

Sight OT but very informative videos. We only get to read and see info-graphics for missile performance:

A few comments are also very informative.

AIM-9X tests:





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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 04 Apr 2017 18:38

^Posted by me and others in the International thread on quite a few occasions. Mostly block I - 9X footage from the 40+ shots they fired between Developmental testing and Operational Evaluation in the early 2000s.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 04 Apr 2017 18:47

Pratyush wrote:Reading the above i can begin to understand the spyder purchase. But am not quite able to place the qrsam or the maitri in the mix. As the later 2 appear to be the name for a system that meets the same broad requirements.


Maitri (IN SRSAM) is all but redundant. It existed purely because IN was unsure that DRDO had the tech to make ARH compact missiles. Astra itself was in development issues. Today, QRSAM exists and is well along development. Astra has also cleared multiple trials and an indigenized version of the original Russian seeker has also been tested. My take is that Maitri will be cancelled. DRDO no longer needs the French assistance as it once did or was perceived to have needed.
IMHO - the missile programs will be:

Local:
Akash : 25km range
Akash1S (upgraded with RF seeker)
Akash NG (50km range)
QRSAM/SRSAM for IA/IAF and perhaps a variant for Navy. 20-25km range performance in a much smaller footprint (comparing with ramjet Akash is not apples to apples).
Future QRSAM/SRSAM variants with extended range missiles (using Astra derivatives)
XR-SAM: Long range SAM 100km+

JVs:
Barak-8 and ER variants: 70km-100km

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 04 Apr 2017 18:49

Also with Atulya DRDO now has the building blocks for something like Phalanx. Without having to depend on Flycatcher and all the IP hassles that result whenever we try to do something on our own. The Russians will likely allow us to mod the AK-630 with Atulya combination as it does not compete with their own programs - until and unless they feel the item is competing with possible Tunguska or Pantsir orders as a cheaper option, even without the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 04 Apr 2017 19:05

Karan M wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Reading the above i can begin to understand the spyder purchase. But am not quite able to place the qrsam or the maitri in the mix. As the later 2 appear to be the name for a system that meets the same broad requirements.


Maitri (IN SRSAM) is all but redundant. It existed purely because IN was unsure that DRDO had the tech to make ARH compact missiles. Astra itself was in development issues. Today, QRSAM exists and is well along development. Astra has also cleared multiple trials and an indigenized version of the original Russian seeker has also been tested. My take is that Maitri will be cancelled. DRDO no longer needs the French assistance as it once did or was perceived to have needed.
IMHO - the missile programs will be:

Local:
Akash : 25km range
Akash1S (upgraded with RF seeker)
Akash NG (50km range)
QRSAM/SRSAM for IA/IAF and perhaps a variant for Navy. 20-25km range performance in a much smaller footprint (comparing with ramjet Akash is not apples to apples).
Future QRSAM/SRSAM variants with extended range missiles (using Astra derivatives)
XR-SAM: Long range SAM 100km+

JVs:
Barak-8 and ER variants: 70km-100km


XR-SAM could use SFDR that DRDO is developing..??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2017 00:53

So what happened to the NOTAM issued for tests?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gagan » 05 Apr 2017 02:42

Is DRDO testing a heat seeking AAM/SAM?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 05 Apr 2017 12:30

ramana wrote:So what happened to the NOTAM issued for tests?


No news of any test matching the NOTAM. Either test got postponed or it is being kept under wraps for some reason.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 05 Apr 2017 14:55

Heat seeking needs iir sensor still under work. For helina imported from sofradir.

Once we get local one working might replace the large stocks of magic550 r60 r73 we have

Could put it in ASTRA and make a extended range mica ir out of it or a fast short one with new airframe

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 05 Apr 2017 18:33

Singha wrote:Heat seeking needs iir sensor still under work. For helina imported from sofradir.

Once we get local one working might replace the large stocks of magic550 r60 r73 we have

Could put it in ASTRA and make a extended range mica ir out of it or a fast short one with new airframe


According to this DRDO poster, Astra-1 could be used as CCM as well with off-bore-sight launch up to 45 degrees in LOBL or LOAL modes. Plus, slaved with HMS (look-shoot). IIR seeker would it make it similar to MICA IR/RF.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2017 21:42

OK someone please help me out and save me from having to Google everything for myself

What are the Israeli and French AAMs planned for induction (or inducted) into Air Force/Navy and the platforms

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2017 21:48

Israeli: Python (CCM) and Derby(BVR)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2017 21:53

Thanks ramana. What are the Mica murmurs that I heard or imagined I heard? Also Derby/Pythons on what platforms

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Zynda » 05 Apr 2017 22:10

I would think Mica is limited to M2K/Rafale. Mica also available in IIR mode, could replace Magic-2 eventually on M2K.

Edit: NDTV article reports that Rafale purchase comes with Meteor missiles as well. Dunno if Meteor could be integrated in to M2K. As of now, I think Derby/Pythons are limited to LCA. Probably for Rafale, IAF might be thinking of Meteor for Radar guided BVR and Mica for CCM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2017 22:12

And the Mirages and Jaguars are getting? Is it ASRAAM for Jag? What about Mirage?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Zynda » 05 Apr 2017 22:14

See above. M2K is Mirage 2000 :) Not sure about Jag. ASRAAM was being looked at for Jags.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 05 Apr 2017 23:02

Shiv

Mica RF and IR for Mirage, Rafal
Meteor for Raf
ASRAAM for Jaguars
Python-5, Derby, Derby ER for Tejas
Derby for IN Sea Harrier

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 06 Apr 2017 03:34

shiv wrote:And the Mirages and Jaguars are getting? Is it ASRAAM for Jag? What about Mirage?



From the IAF thread...

Rakesh wrote:At Aero India 2017, two MBDA missiles headed into Indian Air Force service.
The ASRAAM for the Jaguars and the Meteor for the Rafales.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/833651566821376000

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 06 Apr 2017 04:09

490 MICAs were purchased as part of the Mirage-2000 upgrade.

New missiles for Mirage jets for $1.23 bn approved
Wednesday, January 04, 2012 | 8:06:51 PM IST (+05:30 GMT)
...
New Delhi, Jan 4 (IANS) India''s top security panel Wednesday cleared a $1.23-billion deal for purchasing 490 French air-to-air missiles for the air force''s 51-plane Mirage-2000 fleet.
...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 06 Apr 2017 11:24

Zynda wrote:I would think Mica is limited to M2K/Rafale. Mica also available in IIR mode, could replace Magic-2 eventually on M2K.

Edit: NDTV article reports that Rafale purchase comes with Meteor missiles as well. Dunno if Meteor could be integrated in to M2K. As of now, I think Derby/Pythons are limited to LCA. Probably for Rafale, IAF might be thinking of Meteor for Radar guided BVR and Mica for CCM.


Meteor is an extremely costly missile. It will be purchased in limited numbers only. I don't think its worth spending efforts and money on integrating it on other platforms. Instead spend that money on SFDR.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby manjgu » 06 Apr 2017 17:54

Derby ER is the poor mans Meteor.


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