Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2017 22:04

arun, Thanks for the two high resolution pictures.

The bumpy strip along both missiles is the electrical conduit raceway. Usually it is run between stages carrying electrical signals for the motor nozzle actuators. The target vehicle has a triangular bump midway up which is the conduit transition to the upper stage.

I wonder if the AAD stage separates after the boost phase and the kill vehicle goes on.
The AAD has two sets of aft fins and the forward canard.

Let me see if I can spot the separation joint to validate my guess.

----
I zoomed 400% and can see a circular shadow just above the conduit raceway.

So the forward fins/canards are to help the CP of the kill vehicle. As the KV is moving at very high speeds it probably uses divert thruster to steer. Recall Smt. Tessy Thomas speech at the Engineering College. One of the slides had pictures of divert thrusters.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 02 Mar 2017 22:08

INS Kalvari test fires AShM

Must be an Exocet test launch.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 02 Mar 2017 22:23

sudhan wrote:INS Kalvari test fires AShM

Must be an Exocet test launch.

Exocet SM39 ASHm according to Livefist tweet.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 02 Mar 2017 22:26

arun wrote:A couple of Hi-Res photos from PIB. Click the photo and it will blow up.

1.A view of the Target Missile used by DRDO in the successful test firing of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.

CNR :94047 Photo ID :99432:

Clicky Target Missile
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No Orange smoke, solid propellant?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Mar 2017 22:33

How come the thaad which is shorter and thinner than aad have these figures while we only claim 15km to 25km for aad? Does aad have a long slant range to intercepts at the 15k to 25k ceiling? Else it makes no sense to me

Although the actual figures are classified, THAAD missiles have an estimated range of 125 miles (200 km), and can reach an altitude of 93 miles (150 km

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Mar 2017 22:44

Singha wrote:How come the thaad which is shorter and thinner than aad have these figures while we only claim 15km to 25km for aad? Does aad have a long slant range to intercepts at the 15k to 25k ceiling? Else it makes no sense to me

Although the actual figures are classified, THAAD missiles have an estimated range of 125 miles (200 km), and can reach an altitude of 93 miles (150 km

THAAD uses a Mach 8+ (2.8 km/s) hit to kill interceptor (KKV) that weighs 900 kg .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Mar 2017 22:55

sudeepJ, The target has twin nozzles which is the Prithvi configuration. Exhaust plume color could be artifact of photo/camera lens.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 02 Mar 2017 23:35

tsarkar wrote:Note the unfolding wings and canards here https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C55EsA3WAAEHyMZ.jpg:large

JayS, Indranil - any idea on purpose the canards serve? I'm not able to recollect any, nor do any missile in the same class elsewhere have them.

The canards are a new addition - previous versions did not have them

It doesn't look like they are actuated. Also they are too far from other surfaces to be useful for flow augmentation. To me they are there for stability, like the nose strakes on aircrafts. As Ramana saar said, they can be used to adjust Cp location as well. One possible reason for late addition of canard could be nose heavy configuration, say due to heavier seeker. To balance that such canards could be useful.

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Mar 2017 23:48

Singha wrote:How come the thaad which is shorter and thinner than aad have these figures while we only claim 15km to 25km for aad? Does aad have a long slant range to intercepts at the 15k to 25k ceiling? Else it makes no sense to me

Although the actual figures are classified, THAAD missiles have an estimated range of 125 miles (200 km), and can reach an altitude of 93 miles (150 km

THAAD seems to be two stage? from wiki

On AAD if the slant range is large, I wonder if it can used as boost phase interceptor on a SU30.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Mar 2017 23:51

nam wrote:
Singha wrote:How come the thaad which is shorter and thinner than aad have these figures while we only claim 15km to 25km for aad? Does aad have a long slant range to intercepts at the 15k to 25k ceiling? Else it makes no sense to me

Although the actual figures are classified, THAAD missiles have an estimated range of 125 miles (200 km), and can reach an altitude of 93 miles (150 km
THAAD seems to be two stage? from wiki

The Baseline THAAD is a single stage interceptor with a KKV that uses a liquid DACs. THAAD ER would be the two-stage missile with an expanded envelope.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Mar 2017 23:54

arun wrote:A couple of Hi-Res photos from PIB. Click the photo and it will blow up.

1.A view of the Target Missile used by DRDO in the successful test firing of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.

CNR :94047 Photo ID :99432:

Clicky Target Missile

Target Missile Launcher is quite interesting..

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Mar 2017 02:06

tsarkar wrote: JayS, Indranil - any idea on purpose the canards serve? I'm not able to recollect any, nor do any missile in the same class elsewhere have them.

Those are just nose strakes. At any AoA, two opposite nose strakes generate symmetric vortices on either side of the nose. This provides better directional stability.It is actually much more common than you think.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 03 Mar 2017 02:48

sudeepj wrote:
No Orange smoke, solid propellant?

Nope. Still liquid fuelled onlee.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 03 Mar 2017 04:26

nam wrote:The canards seems to present in Pragati, the G2G version of the missile.

Must be a lesson from Barak 8 development.

I wonder if this missile can be used in boost phase intercept. A big radar at 15-16k feet in Kashmir looking down on Pakistan. SU-30 with AAD intercepting missile in boost phase.

We have the building blocks.

Can't aerostats do the same??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2017 05:47

ramana wrote:sudeepJ, The target has twin nozzles which is the Prithvi configuration. Exhaust plume color could be artifact of photo/camera lens.

Time was when Prithvi launches were accompanied by a dense cloud of white-orange ismoke which is absent in this image. Also don't recall twin rocket plumes- OK saw the latter on old photus

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2017 07:10

arun wrote:
2.Take off view of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile of the DRDO successfully test fired, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.

CNR :94046 Photo ID :99431:

Clicky AAD Endo Atmospheric Interceptor

Was wondering why the AAD missile launcher has such a muscular hydraulic raising mechanism - but it looks like the launcher will have 6 (or 3?) missiles

John · Post by **John** » 03 Mar 2017 07:40

Singha wrote:How come the thaad which is shorter and thinner than aad have these figures while we only claim 15km to 25km for aad? Does aad have a long slant range to intercepts at the 15k to 25k ceiling? Else it makes no sense to me

Although the actual figures are classified, THAAD missiles have an estimated range of 125 miles (200 km), and can reach an altitude of 93 miles (150 km

THAAD is a different beast on other hand Barak 8 ER has specs that match\exceed AAD on paper and reportedly had ABM capability which they are not to eager to advertise. It's 1/3rd the weight of AAD.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 09:00

shiv wrote:
arun wrote:
2.Take off view of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile of the DRDO successfully test fired, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.

CNR :94046 Photo ID :99431:

Clicky AAD Endo Atmospheric Interceptor
Was wondering why the AAD missile launcher has such a muscular hydraulic raising mechanism - but it looks like the launcher will have 6 (or 3?) missiles

6 as per SJha's article. But only one was present in the test.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Mar 2017 09:32

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote: Was wondering why the AAD missile launcher has such a muscular hydraulic raising mechanism - but it looks like the launcher will have 6 (or 3?) missiles
6 as per SJha's article. But only one was present in the test.

Looks like they are canisterized.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 03 Mar 2017 09:37

Based on photus, there is a lot of discussion on solid/liquid/smoke colour /canards/2nd stage etc etc but please also keep in mind what is not visible. The software to seek the target, sensor fusion with land based radars, and bulls eye htk capability is very impressive and one wonders the genesis of this effort, or the brain/s behind it. Incredible amount of prediction algorithm (with some juggad clever tricks) is going on to locate the fast moving, maneuvering target amid clutter for a direct hit.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 09:41

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote:
6 as per SJha's article. But only one was present in the test.
Looks like they are canisterized.

Yes, 6 cannisters.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 09:47

Rishi Verma wrote:Based on photus, there is a lot of discussion on solid/liquid/smoke colour /canards/2nd stage etc etc but please also keep in mind what is not visible. The software to seek the target, sensor fusion with land based radars, and bulls eye htk capability is very impressive and one wonders the genesis of this effort, or the brain/s behind it. Incredible amount of prediction algorithm (with some juggad clever tricks) is going on to locate the fast moving, maneuvering target amid clutter for a direct hit.

I am pretty sure everyone here is very much aware of the incredible engineering that goes under the hood. We discuss what we can, from available information in public domain. Not everyone knows Hanuman Chalisa.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 03 Mar 2017 10:18

JayS wrote:
Rishi Verma wrote:Based on photus, there is a lot of discussion on solid/liquid/smoke colour /canards/2nd stage etc etc but please also keep in mind what is not visible. The software to seek the target, sensor fusion with land based radars, and bulls eye htk capability is very impressive and one wonders the genesis of this effort, or the brain/s behind it. Incredible amount of prediction algorithm (with some juggad clever tricks) is going on to locate the fast moving, maneuvering target amid clutter for a direct hit.
I am pretty sure everyone here is very much aware of the incredible engineering that goes under the hood. We discuss what we can, from available information in public domain. Not everyone knows Hanuman Chalisa.

Learn to let go..

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 03 Mar 2017 11:15

PC: Livefist

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Mar 2017 11:20

What Missile is that - INS Kolkota- AAD or more realistically Barak-8?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 11:24

Rishi Verma wrote:
JayS wrote: I am pretty sure everyone here is very much aware of the incredible engineering that goes under the hood. We discuss what we can, from available information in public domain. Not everyone knows Hanuman Chalisa.
Learn to let go..

A bit rich coming from you, after being very touchy about some small remark by admin. Stop being pompous. And I am still waiting for the answer in Kaveri thread. Hope you will back up your grandiose statements/claims by something more solid than "I know what I am talking about".

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 11:25

Karthik S wrote:

PC: Livefist

LRSAM..?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2017 11:50

Yes. Sm2 also climbs straight up before curving away. Aster due to tvc turns earlier i felt

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Mar 2017 12:08

JayS,

I think the point is made and thank you for that. Now, let it go.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2017 12:32

India prepares Israeli SPYDER air defence missile system for Pakistan border[/b

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 93019.html

The Indian Air Force will in the next few weeks finish weaving a security web with the Israeli SPYDER air defence missile system on the western borders in a bid to strengthen its preparedness to strike down any aerial threat from Pakistan.

The induction process was delayed by over three years due to the nonavailability of Czech-made Tatra trucks on which the missiles were to be carried.

"The SPYDER missile system is already in the process of deployment along the western borders where it will help in tackling any aircraft, cruise missile, surveillance plane or drone that tries to violate our airspace," senior defence sources told MAIL TODAY.

WHAT IS SPYDER?

The SPYDER (Surface-to-air PYthon and DERby) is a low-level, quick reaction missile (LLQRM) to neutralise hostile targets up to 15 km away and at heights between 20 and 9,000 metres. The Python-5 is currently the most capable air-to-air missile (AAM) in Israel's inventory, while the Derby is an active radar homing AAM that provides the SPYDER missile system with a fireand-forget option.

"The IAF will use the SPYDER along with the made-in-India Akash surface-to-air missile which has a little longer effective range of 25 km as part of a layered approach to defend vital assets and locations in the country," the sources stated.

DEAL MADE IN 2008

The SPYDER deal was completed by the IAF with Rafael and Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI) in 2008 and supplies were to begin in three to four years. But the process got delayed due to the unavailability of the Tatra trucks, which got mired in a controversy over bribery allegations.

"Due to the lack of heavy specialised trucks, changes had to be made in the contract with the vendors and a made-in-India truck has been used for carrying the SPYDER system, which has been tested extensively resulting in delays," the sources said.

Both the SPYDER and Akash are all-weather missiles and the process to seek and engage an aggressive aircraft or missile is automatic. Besides aircraft and UAVs, they can also neutralise lowlevel cruise missiles.

The IAF has taken a slew of measures to strengthen its air defence capabilities in the recent past as it is also going to deploy another air defence system called the Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) system from Israel, which can strike down targets at 50-70km.

The force would receive a major boost when it starts getting the S-400 air defence missile system from Russia, which can take out targets at 400 km and can be very effective against enemy AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System) and cruise missiles at great distances.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Mar 2017 13:17

Indranil wrote:
tsarkar wrote: JayS, Indranil - any idea on purpose the canards serve? I'm not able to recollect any, nor do any missile in the same class elsewhere have them.
Those are just nose strakes. At any AoA, two opposite nose strakes generate symmetric vortices on either side of the nose. This provides better directional stability.It is actually much more common than you think.

Indeed, I read up and found they reduce unintended yaw significantly, especially since the missile gets top heavy with seeker and warhead as propellant is expended. That is needed for a hit to kill missile.

Thanks everyone, and Arun S for the good photos.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Mar 2017 15:58

Bheeshma wrote:
Can't aerostats do the same??

They cannot carry 1-2K ranged radar and it's power requirement. Also comes with the usual issues of aerostat.. winds, maintenance etc.

More importantly dont think they can be hooked to float at 18000 feet.

On the other hand, in the Kashmir mountains at 15k ft, we can build a monster to keep an eye on Paki and Tibet.

A jet flying at 38k feet has a LOS to 250-300 KM ! Things we could do having a radar in Kashmir.

My personal CT: One of the untold interest of western countries in Kashmir during the cold war, could have been to have a ABM radar there. Access to Himalayas and it's high peaks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2017 16:03

I believe a indian expedition in 50s placed a seismic or radiation monitor on top of nanda devi to monitor lop nor cheen nuclear test. device was provided by US in the charbatia days. it was powered by a small nuclear battery. lost in avalanche and never found.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2017 16:08

so a huge SAM deal like spyder gets mired in years of delays due to non availability of a truck!!?
and this is not a fire on move system but just a static launcher.
wonders never cease. the AL stallions of 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 and 10x10 were all available

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2017 16:45

Singha wrote:so a huge SAM deal like spyder gets mired in years of delays due to non availability of a truck!!?
and this is not a fire on move system but just a static launcher.
wonders never cease. the AL stallions of 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 and 10x10 were all available

IIRC they were field tested on TATRA trucks and then the whole TATRA thing blew up , so they will have to do that on AL trucks which are hopefully compatiable with the system and field test it , takes time and effort ....cant help bad things happens at times

John · Post by **John** » 03 Mar 2017 17:10

JayS wrote:
shiv wrote: Looks like they are canisterized.
Yes, 6 cannisters.

What makes you say that? It looks like a 6 cell launcher. And based on plume no sign it was ejected out.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 03 Mar 2017 17:20

Then what is this

from http://defence-blog.com/news/the-first- ... e-net.html

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 03 Mar 2017 17:56

Looks like they finally settled for a TATA truck.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 03 Mar 2017 19:21

Take off view of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile of the DRDO successfully test fired, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.
CNR :94046 Photo ID :99431

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 03 Mar 2017 19:22

A view of the Target Missile used by DRDO in the successful test firing of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.
CNR :94047 Photo ID :99432