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Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 07 Mar 2017 23:30

kurup wrote:New Warnings for 11 and 12 March ( for a 400km range missile )

INDIA EAST COAST – N BAY OF BENGAL (.) CHARTS 31 351 352 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 11 AND 12 MAR 17 FROM 0430- 0830 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY

21-22.25N 086-55.71E, 21-00.43N 086-57.66E, 18-14.71N 089-13.08E, 18-39.73N 089-45.24E, 21-17.18N 087-18.93E, 21-22.74N 086-56.34E

2. CANCEL THIS MSG 120930 UTC MAR 17

Image


Guessing the test is for the extended 450 km range Brahmos missile that Dr. S. Christopher mentioned in the India Today article by Jugal Purohit that was posted on BRF by N. Rao. Test date and exclusion zone length are broadly in line:

arun wrote:



Many nuggets of information in that India Today article by Jugal Purohit:

What has been the impact of India gaining a seat, last year, at the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) - a global club it courted for years before being finally let in?

The man who answered was none other than the boss of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr S Christopher. He chose the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile BrahMos to make his point.

"The immediate impact," he said, "would be seen on the BrahMos whose range will be increased from 290km to 450km". The date chosen for the test is March 10 he said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 08 Mar 2017 00:45

Great connecting dots arun.

Keep up the good work.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2017 05:51

EXCLUSIVE: BrahMos Corp To Be DRDO’s Export Arm, Begins With Akash SAM
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03/ ... t-arm.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 09 Mar 2017 07:17

In the latest DRDO newsletter, the Chief Dr. Christopher says, ". . ., the A5 missile is progressing through trials".

There have been four successful tests so far, April 19, 2012, September, 2013, Jan 31, 2015, Dec 26, 2016, the last two of which were cannisterized. All of them were hugely successful with pin-point accuracy. So, what are they still progressing through, even after four successful flights? MIRV? In May 2013, the DRDO Chief, Dr. V.K.Saraswat said that MIRV was at a design stage and another test of Agni-V, without MIRV, would be done later that year. DRDO was expected to demonstrate the MIRV capabilities by c. 2015.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 09 Mar 2017 07:44

SSridhar wrote:In the latest DRDO newsletter, the Chief Dr. Christopher says, ". . ., the A5 missile is progressing through trials".

There have been four successful tests so far, April 19, 2012, September, 2013, Jan 31, 2015, Dec 26, 2016, the last two of which were cannisterized. All of them were hugely successful with pin-point accuracy. So, what are they still progressing through, even after four successful flights? MIRV? In May 2013, the DRDO Chief, Dr. V.K.Saraswat said that MIRV was at a design stage and another test of Agni-V, without MIRV, would be done later that year. DRDO was expected to demonstrate the MIRV capabilities by c. 2015.

My guess: User trials will be needed and the user has to find a place for the Agni 5 in his arsenal.

Funnily enough we have an ironic fact here. With missile tech the "user" (armed forces) have had to accept what the designer provides because of tech limitations. The same problem was true of Europe and the US in the early days of aviation. But in India the user has always demanded specs from aircraft far in excess of what was technologically feasible in India. This was possible only because imports were available to us. For China under sanctions and Europe/USA in WW1 "imports" were not an option.

Sorry. OT

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 09 Mar 2017 08:17

If they are 'user trials' or 'pre-induction trials', then one can understand that so long as they are not DRDO's trials. Normally, the missile is declared 'operational' after three DRDO trials. The user trials begin after that and are inducted into service later.

I agree with you on the missiles being rammed down the throat of SFC. But, it is also good in one way because we learn to make do with whatever that is available.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 09 Mar 2017 08:41

The a5 and k4 needs to get composite first stage. Payload will increase or if payload is static then 2nd stage injection velocity will increase. Less weight is always good.

The third stage will need to be new for ogival mirv payload fairing as warheads can be like petals around core stage.this could make it shorter..another benefit in handling the beast

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 09 Mar 2017 08:47

We do need 150kg 150kt tn tested warheads rather than 650kg 150kt fbf warhead. Thats diff between vanilla vs mirv.

No option but to test such light deadly warheads. Take a leaf from df41 raj47 slide

150kg 150kt
250kg 450kt

I think our fission devices are ok for military small targets/tsp but the above two are a must have for mirv hits on megacities...we dont want to send 50kt warheads in mirv unless its a pslv that releases 108 of them. Krisha krishna

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2017 08:54

Rakesh wrote:EXCLUSIVE: BrahMos Corp To Be DRDO’s Export Arm, Begins With Akash SAM
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03/ ... t-arm.html


I think it would be good to do a commercial arm for indigenous products and not just for exports. There needs to be a more sustained "selling" of indigenous products going on to the Indian armed forces as well. That would be one way to overcome "brochuritist".

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2017 08:56


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ranjan.rao » 09 Mar 2017 09:26

SSridhar wrote:I agree with you on the missiles being rammed down the throat of SFC. But, it is also good in one way because we learn to make do with whatever that is available.

very true, but the fact we ignore is also that urgency and criticality of gulabjamuns (missiles) was also always behind the rice/sambhar(tanks/aircrafts)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 09 Mar 2017 09:36

Another article in BusinessLine on Ms. Shashikala Sinha - M.Somasekar
Behind every successful man, there is a woman is a popular adage. But, behind the development of India’s Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) Shield is a bright defence scientist Shashikala Sinha.

As project Director, Shashikala led the March 1 test flight from APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast that demonstrated the capability to launch a missile that can intercept an incoming missile and destroy it in endo-atmosphere. “Achieving a direct hit in a complex BMD mission is no mean feat”, said Subhash Bhamre, Union Minister of State for Defence, at a function here.

The 56-year-old mother of two is spearheading India’s charge in building an impregnable BMD, which will catapult it into the exclusive club of nations that include the US, Russia and France to possess the technology.

Minister’s pat

An engineering graduate from the IIT-Kharagpur, Shashikala joined the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) in 2001. Within a decade, she became the PD and drove a team to successfully test the indigenous, deployable configuration of the endo-atmospheric interception.

Shashikala, with the Research Centre Imarat (RCI), is an expert in the development of flight vehicles, RF seekers, Radomes, radar cross sections and related technologies. On the occasion of Women’s Day, the Union Minister congratulated her and complimented the efforts of the Defence Women’s Forum and Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL), which organised MUDRA that showcased women as dynamic leaders in decision making in defence R&D. Interestingly, the present Director of ASL, Tessy Thomas, was hailed as the ‘Missile Woman’, for heading Agni IV mission.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 09 Mar 2017 10:24

SSridhar wrote:
I agree with you on the missiles being rammed down the throat of SFC. But, it is also good in one way because we learn to make do with whatever that is available.

I wouldn't call it "ramming down the throat" though it could be interpreted that way.

One country's "ramming down the throat" is another country's "indigenous development"

China went ahead and developed the Q5 - a MiG 19 knockoff because they had no option. What we did was to pick up something and discard it halfway or worse even after completion because imports were available to us. We were fortunate that missile imports were not available to us because of a dozen 3 or 4 letter agreements between those who would have exported to us and kept us ghulams. So we developed missiles but are struggling with aircraft. We have also developed a national attitude of derision towards products that we have ourselves delayed or discarded (HF 24, LCA Navy, assault weapons, Arjun, IJT, HPT 32) . So different from the Chinese attitude of pride in one's own.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2017 11:35

AEROMAG: Aero India 2017
One hears about New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM) and Smart Anti Air Field Weapon (SAAW). How promising are the flight trials?

As part of development of NGARM, two flight trials have been completed as on date. Captive Flight Trials (Phase I) have been conducted during April 16-21, 2016 at Air Force Station, Pune, with the objective of proving mechanical integration aspects of the missile to SU-30MkI for the carriage envelop conditions. Strain, temperature, and vibration data were measured at all critical locations on the missile, while the aircraft was performing various maneuvers. The post flight data analysis has shown that all the structural design parameters were within the predicted bounds and based on the results, NGARM is cleared for carriage conditions at station 8 on Su-30MKI.

Drop Flight Trial of NGARM from Su-30 was conducted during December 15-19, 2016 at 5Wg AF Station, Kalaikunda with the objective of demonstrating separation characteristics of NGARM when released from the aircraft. The missile was released from station 8 of the aircraft at Mach number 0.8 and altitude 6.5 km. During the flight trial, high speed recording of the separation was carried out along with measurement of the missile rates and acceleration using a sensor package unit. Both the video data and the sensor data indicate safe separation of NGARM from the aircraft.

Thus the above two flight trials have successfully demonstrated carriage envelop clearance and safe separation release of NGARM from station 8 of Su-30MKI.


Anyone can find a picture of NGARM?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jayasimha » 09 Mar 2017 12:11

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/i ... tion/4.pdf

3RD GENERATION MISSILE FOR 125MM GUN BARRELS OF T-72 AND T-90
TANKS

1. Name of Project. 3rd Generation Missile for 125mm Barrel in T-72 & T-90
Tanks.

2. Brief. As the design of the existing INVAR missile has been optimized both in
terms of range & Depth of Penetration (DoP), it is imperative to upgrade to a next
generation missile with enhanced capability. The envisaged 3rd Generation gun
launched missile should achieve a Depth of Penetration (DoP) of 800-850mm and be
capability of Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) and Non-Line of Sight (NLOS) engagement
of upto 8 Km by day & night with the ability to carry out pre-flight programmed mvre
towards a BLOS/NLOS tgts. The msl should comprise of two parts; a missile
alongwith booster & sustainer charge and the second part should only be a pusher/
propelling device which can be loaded in the carousel auto loader of T-90 S/T-72 Tank.

3. QRs.

->(Ser No) Parameter
-->Capability

->(a) Capability of being fired from existing gun barrel
-->125mm Smooth Bore (SB)

->(b) Capable of engaging static and mobile tank target (moving with speeds upto 20Kmph)
-->By both day and night.

->(c) Maximum effective range
-->5 Km.

->(d) Minimum range
--> ≤ 500m.

->(e) HEAT Tandem Warhead with Penetration
--> ≥600mm of RHA beyond ERA.

->(f) Shelf Life under controlled conditions
-->10 yrs

->(g) Shelf Life under field conditions
-->5 yrs

->(h) Hit probability on a standard NATO tank target (2.5 x 2.3 m)
--> ≥90% or above

4. Timelines. Tentative time lines for indn 2020-21.
5. Cost. Rough Indicative Cost - Rs 40 Lacs.
6. Qty. Tentative quantity to be procure after successful prototype devp - 3000 missiles annually.
7. Categorisation. The recommended categorisation – Make -I.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 09 Mar 2017 21:52

Random points.

SS, Three successful trials(R. Narasimha committee) the missile is ready for user trials.
Also no SFC without the IGMP. And military was embedded in the development. So no ramming down throats.
The NGRAM is good news as it extends Su-30 MKI capabilities. What about the smart airfield weapon?

The INVAR replacement minimum range is odd. A rocket/missile has energy which it has to waste to achieve for minimum range. Asking for 500m will handicap the design. Th3 500m minimum range is in the tank gun range.

Maybe it is for more INVARs!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M119

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 10 Mar 2017 19:56

Any news on the Brahmos 450km test promised for today during AI-17?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 10 Mar 2017 20:32

There is now an Akash 1S program and Akash NG.

Akash 1S is likely the originally planned improvement with iterative advancements possible with current Akash and the NG a brand new program - fully likely with AESA radar, active seekers etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 10 Mar 2017 20:43

JTull wrote:Any news on the Brahmos 450km test promised for today during AI-17?


Livefist just reported Brahmos-ER test is set for tomorrow from Kalam island.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2017 22:54

JTull wrote:Any news on the Brahmos 450km test promised for today during AI-17?


JTull, Read the NYT reporters article on NoKo missile test failures in the past and the US military complex potential role in them.
So while window for test is fixed via NOTAM, the actual test time should be random.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2017 22:55

Livefist guy write the Nirbhay turbo-fan engine is successful and ready for integration.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 10 Mar 2017 23:36

Ramana sir saw your message about BMD. Due to some severe time crunch, I cannot do it right now. Perhaps in the future if its ok

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 10 Mar 2017 23:45

Future is fine. My emphasis is on what incoming trajectories were PAD,AAD, and PDV tested. And also compare S400 and Akash from public sources.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 11 Mar 2017 04:35

Karan M wrote:There is now an Akash 1S program and Akash NG.

Akash 1S is likely the originally planned improvement with iterative advancements possible with current Akash and the NG a brand new program - fully likely with AESA radar, active seekers etc.


Akash 1S is probably this one:
EXCLUSIVE: Akash Mk-II SAM To Fly In Two Years
...
The Akash Mk-II will be a longer-range, faster and more accurate SAM. Ok, now here’s the low-down on the Akash Mk-II. The missile will have an intercept range of 30-35 km, or a little over 10-km more than the Mk-I version. Apart from extending range, the Mk-II project mandate will be to increase accuracy of the missile’s guidance system and the fire control system, push up the missile’s performance, agility, speed, efficiency and accuracy. This will involve tweaking of almost all major systems, including the missile itself, signal processors etc.
...



Wonder if incremental upgrades have already been added since that was initiated in 2010 with 18-month internal timeline using their own initiative?
Jun 11 2010 9 38 am

The Mark-II version of India’s Akash surface-to-air missile has begun development and will be ready for a first flight in 24 months — that’s the guarantee its makers, the Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL) have given to the Air Force and Army. ... Top sources have revealed that while most of Project Akash staff is currently focused on ensuring that serial production is trouble-free, a select team of scientists and engineers has been handpicked to begin Mk-II.
...
Project Akash-II has set itself a deadline of 18 months to begin simulated trials, following which it will begin a routine of development test-firings.

...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 11 Mar 2017 04:48

ramana wrote:Livefist guy write the Nirbhay turbo-fan engine is successful and ready for integration.


Buried in this are details of the new long range Cruise missile that Dr Christopher mentioned.
Main power by Manik turbofan .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 11 Mar 2017 09:51

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:Livefist guy write the Nirbhay turbo-fan engine is successful and ready for integration.


Buried in this are details of the new long range Cruise missile that Dr Christopher mentioned.
Main power by Manik turbofan .


I really liked the concept of LRCM. I dont know any other such missile. Does anyone else has the same concept CM with subsonic cruise and supersonic terminal phase...??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem » 11 Mar 2017 10:25

Livefist‏ @livefist 14h14 hours ago

HEADS UP: The big BrahMos-ER (Extended Range) debut test firing is all set for tomorrow from Kalam Island. Range up from 290-km to 450-km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 11 Mar 2017 10:30

in a limited sense the klub ASM works the same way. the terminal supersonic stage dart has a 50km range iirc.

if russia senses its KH101, KH58 and Kalibr subsonic CMs are becoming vulnerable to MRSAM/SRSAM combos, they will develop derivatives with klub type supersonic darts with relative quickness as they have the data banks. maybe reduce some warhead weight in exchange and keep similar form factor.

they will likely use the zircon hypersonic missile for ship killing and anti-IADS role

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karthik S » 11 Mar 2017 12:02

Livefist‏ @livefist
Livefist Retweeted Livefist
BREAKING: BrahMos-ER test fired for the first time at 450 km range. Details awaited.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Ankar » 11 Mar 2017 12:02

Livefist‏ @livefist 1m1 minute ago

BREAKING: BrahMos-ER test fired for the first time at 450 km range. Details awaited.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aarvee » 11 Mar 2017 13:14

Livefist‏ @livefist

Confirmed: the BrahMos-ER test today met all parameters, declared a success.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 11 Mar 2017 14:29

So it was basically a software change.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Mar 2017 14:53

srai thats the exact one i mean

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 11 Mar 2017 16:24

So staying 100 km inside our border , Land based Brahmos-ER can target 350 km any where inside Pakistan for a flight time of ~ 5 mins or less to complete the entire flight profile.

This system will get extremely lethal when integrated with Sukhoi , Flying subsonic/supersonic from any direction it wishes too and ability to launch a supersonic cruise missile at ~ M 2.5 & 450 km away from its target with 300 kg warhead is a extremely frightening capability any enemy AD planner will have to deal with for a long time to add up to have a accuracy that block 3 variant has demonstrated.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karthik S » 11 Mar 2017 16:58

Austin wrote:So staying 100 km inside our border , Land based Brahmos-ER can target 350 km any where inside Pakistan for a flight time of ~ 5 mins or less to complete the entire flight profile.

This system will get extremely lethal when integrated with Sukhoi , Flying subsonic/supersonic from any direction it wishes too and ability to launch a supersonic cruise missile at ~ M 2.5 & 450 km away from its target with 300 kg warhead is a extremely frightening capability any enemy AD planner will have to deal with for a long time to add up to have a accuracy that block 3 variant has demonstrated.


It's a good cold start weapon. 350Km will cover most populated areas of pak.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 11 Mar 2017 17:31

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:Livefist guy write the Nirbhay turbo-fan engine is successful and ready for integration.


Buried in this are details of the new long range Cruise missile that Dr Christopher mentioned.
Main power by Manik turbofan .



Livefist learns the Manik turbofan will also power the DRDO’s secretive Long Range Cruise Missile (LRCM), a weapon project revealed first here on Livefist in 2010. Top DRDO sources reveal the LRCM, currently still in a configuration phase, will involve a three-stage power system: a booster to put the missile in the air, the Manik turbofan to power the LRCM through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the LRCM into supersonic endgame towards its target. The full-fledged project is being spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL).


To go with the above from Shiv Aroor’s Livefist, verbatim quote from February 2017 interview of Dr. S. Christopher by Force Magazine on the supersonic cruise missle being developed which Aroor dubs as Long Range Cruise Missile (LRCM). The Dr. S. Christopher Interview is available in full on the DRDO website (Clicky) and has a variety of other bits of information on different DRDO activities:

……………. cruise missiles are one of our major focus areas. There is another new programme which will have a supersonic end phase. It is a turbofan with the range of around 1,000 kilometres.
In this new project, a booster will lift the missile up, and the turbofan will take the missile to the desired location within 1,000 km. In the final flight stage, we will ditch the turbofan, fly with another engine which will take the missile to the supersonic speed and hit the target. The DRDO HQ has cleared this project already. Two labs — Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) — are involved in this.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 11 Mar 2017 18:29

Last phase with updates on the target and then seeker activated? Same as Club which of course has less range?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 11 Mar 2017 18:39


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Mar 2017 19:27

Yagnasri wrote:Last phase with updates on the target and then seeker activated? Same as Club which of course has less range?

Klub has curtailed range but the real Klub called kalibr , doesn't iirc

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 11 Mar 2017 21:13

Brahmos Aerospace press release on test of the range extended “far beyond the 400 kms” Brahmos-ER missile today:


BRAHMOS Extended Range (ER) missile successfully test-fired

BrahMos Aerospace , (March 11, 2017)

BALASORE, ODISHA: As part of capability enhancement endeavour, a major milestone was achieved on 11th March 2017 when an enhanced version of the BRAHMOS supersonic cruise missile with an Extended Range (ER) was successfully test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) Chandipur at sea in Balasore, off the coast of Odisha.

In a historical first, the formidable missile system once again proved its mettle to precisely hit enemy targets at much higher range than the current range of 290 km, with supersonic speed of 2.8 Mach.

During the launch at 1130 hrs, the land-attack version of the supersonic cruise missile system met its mission parameters in a copybook manner. It was a text book launch achieving 100% results, executed with high precision from the Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL) deployed in full configuration.

The new benchmark which was set by Chairman DRDO Dr. S Christopher during Aero India 2017 in Bengaluru has been remarkably achieved by BrahMos Aerospace.

The unique BRAHMOS weapon system has empowered all three wings of the Indian armed forces with impeccable anti-ship & land attack capability.

The technology upgrade comes after India’s full membership to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), which removed caps on range of BRAHMOS cruise missile.

“With the successful test firing of BRAHMOS Extended Range missile, BRAHMOS-ER, the Indian Armed Forces will be empowered to knock down enemy targets far beyond the 400 kms. BRAHMOS has thus proved its prowess once again as the best supersonic cruise missile system in the world,” Dr. Sudhir Mishra, CEO & MD of BrahMos Aerospace, said from the launch site.

Dr S Christopher congratulated the BrahMos team, DRDO & NPOM scientists involved in today's successful mission.

The launch was witnessed by Deputy Chief of Army Staff, Director General Artillery, Corps Commander and many other senior officers from Indian Army. BrahMos Project Director Mr. VSN Murthy, and Programme Director Mr. Dasharath Ram along with other senior officers from DRDO & BrahMos were also present during the launch.

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