Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2015 09:11

LA class is about as big as the arihant. the later ones had 12 tubes fwd of the sail. the virginia class has in same location. arihant too can pack in some 12 nirbhays/K4.

the reactor is 165mw...how does it compare to known reactor of arihant?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2015 09:52

^^ Some more info. IN officers & R&D folk have experience now on the "more complex" double hull form. We can and should make "single hull" designs on our own and there is "no reason" why we cannot do this. Also, feedback has been given to Brahmos corp that price needs to come down. Hence all plans for "indigenization". Also asked if indigenization plan is for A, why not EKM and German?? Response, you tell me, we are also mystified! Sheer lack of coordination. Apparently, during friendship era with Russia, when IN asked for spares, Russkies said why dont you build your own at your own shipyards what are they for??! But nobody took that seriously. Now things got so bad that some in IN actually asked/looked other way when rtd folks to tap contacts in Russia or own initiatiave to source spares which Russians themselves said they could not locate or provide. Needless to say this has created another set of issues (some are good, some are gouging). Basically, one big lesson when dealing with Russia is to ensure supply of proper support and spares, so this is why all kit inducted has gone through huge set of trials. Initially Russians were upset but over time as long as orders come, they have accepted.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2015 10:10

Karan's int. titbit about the French not being totally cooperative,is also borne out by their public statement to OZ that they will NOT give India their latest sub tech,as they try to win the OZ sub contest.

If this is the attitude,then why order 3 more Scorpenes that carry only Exocet,inferior to BMOs? WE should instead order 4 more German U-boats of U-214/216 class to augment/replace the German boats in service while acquiring from Russia more N-subs on lease and examine the best of their conventional AIP designs that can accommodate BMos too. We will then have the best conventional sub tech available,French,German and Russian.Swedish and Italian and Japanese are less popular amongst the world's navies.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2015 10:56

the germans also have kept their best tech in the U212 (not for export) and sell the downgraded U214 while pimping it via media hype as the best sausage on the seas.
even Russia would have some non-exportable tech on the rostov-on-don domestic kilo types.
we already know the sea dragon suite in IL38 May was downrated.

and U214 will have same limitation as Scorpene in not big enough for nirbhay or brahmos. only a indian built sub (with some foreign components like engine) will meet all our numerous special needs.

best bet is build a single hull stretched kilo design and source the machinery from russia. I doubt anyone else will be willing to supply bits and pieces without a 'compensatory' order for their expensive subs first. Rus atleast has already been compensated for the arihant pgm and akula lease.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2015 12:56

The German U-boats could be dedicated HUK subs.It would be a pity if we lose our decades of experience of operating U-boats/German tech. Our U-boats were designed specifically for our needs. Our veteran submariners speak highly of them. Russia is developing a new dedicated HUK N-sub design.Russian boats could carry BMos,Nirbhay,etc.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2015 13:58

Actually the point was we don't need to buy submarines. Makes me wonder more and more what is going on in terms of lack of coordination and direction.

Gent was categorical, that given funding and direction, A program can be leveraged for conventional subs. Infra and capabilities built up are that good. The concerns that I had were Russian systems eg imported for A-1 but, with A-series, by end of production expected to source almost all high value items from within India. At least thats the stated intent and they are firm on it. So plan is independence and I'd surmise, though I didn't ask, that current reactor would be retained to keep things moving quick.

Also confirmed that progress has been steady and consistent. No sudden stops or radical changes. This takes the time it takes etc.

So it seems when original German subs were purchased, India also got design TOT & we sent naval, civil guys to pick up design skills & also build up competence in subs. But it was single hull. We then moved to double hull for A-class. So it was a huge learning experience. So this will be full circle but no reason it cannot be done.

So P-75I can clearly be Indian if India makes a committed effort. Some stuff like engines might need to be imported.

One issue is clearly in establishment/IN itself many people don't know scale of effort for A-class. Program has been run as a black box completely. It gets farcical at times. So several years back, a RFP was put out for some high grade steel and a vendor responded, the joke was both sides knew what it was for, but neither could mention it. Anyhow the vendor was a MNC based out of some green Euro country and they had to back out. By which time India had its own steel available.

Another snippet is that this net speculation about India not being able to make VLF sonars is rubbish. Apparently for our conditions, LF Sonar is what is required and hence all our efforts are towards getting that fixed. Confident that NPOL can do it. BTW those 2 orders placed were for proto, the actual Indian ALTAS is still in trials.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2015 16:53

Can't say more or quote people,but we haven't as yet the capability to design and build on our own a contemporary AIP sub to match any of those of the major manufacturers.The DRDO's AIP system hasn't been tried out on land or at sea to the best of one's knowledge. According to some sources,it cannot get its hands on a sub for trials as the IN is so short in numbers.We don't manufacture NHP 'scopes,engines,torpedoes (though we've seen models at def-expos),combat suites,etc. Sonars is one area where we've done very well. Nirbhay has yet to be perfected and BMos-M awaited. I think that in a decade's time we should be there.The problem is that the bar is getting higher year by year as sub tech is the most zealously guarded tech of all.

The debate about single or double hulls goes on.There are new hybrids with partial double hulls too. Titanium hulls very expensive.Double hulls give extra sides for anechoic coatings/tiles and a lot of eqpt. can be located between the two hulls.A double hull is inherently stringer than single hull,gives extra buoyancy too.Look at the SRakshak hull after such a massive explosion.It was mostly intact It saved the other sub alongside.

Here is an interesting titbit about the Japanese Soryu,which has a hybrid single/double hull dsign.
http://gentleseas.blogspot.in/2015/08/s ... tions.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2015 18:55

The AIP module is stated to be ready and awaiting trials. Most submarine design and system capabilities for A can be leveraged for even conventional submarines. Unfortunately the sheer secrecy in which A program has operated has resulted in severe compartmentalization and secrecy so much so most decision makers don't know about it and the capabilities achieved. In fact, coordination and project manage issues apart, the A-program is the biggest success DRDO, Navy have ever had apparently but they are not able to showcase it as it deserves.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 15 Dec 2015 20:41

http://www.manoramaonline.com/news/kera ... issue.html

Doesn't this look like Arihant? Kerala fisherman netted it near the coast. It was there with INS Vikramaditya for a military conference chaired by PM

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 15 Dec 2015 20:46

Looks like the Chakra to me.

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 15 Dec 2015 20:49

symontk wrote:http://www.manoramaonline.com/news/kera ... issue.html

Doesn't this look like Arihant? Kerala fisherman netted it near the coast. It was there with INS Vikramaditya for a military conference chaired by PM

INS Chakra

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 15 Dec 2015 20:53

Thanks, may be I got myself excited and confused

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 16 Dec 2015 16:10

News Flash... Second Sub (Aridaman)set for launch (Q3 2016).. The hull fabrication for third also completed..

source: https://twitter.com/satbasani

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Dec 2015 16:27

BTW same was claimed in Jan, 2012.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Dec 2015 16:30

Karan M wrote:Actually the point was we don't need to buy submarines. Makes me wonder more and more what is going on in terms of lack of coordination and direction.

Gent was categorical, that given funding and direction, A program can be leveraged for conventional subs. Infra and capabilities built up are that good. The concerns that I had were Russian systems eg imported for A-1 but, with A-series, by end of production expected to source almost all high value items from within India. At least thats the stated intent and they are firm on it. So plan is independence and I'd surmise, though I didn't ask, that current reactor would be retained to keep things moving quick.

Also confirmed that progress has been steady and consistent. No sudden stops or radical changes. This takes the time it takes etc.

So it seems when original German subs were purchased, India also got design TOT & we sent naval, civil guys to pick up design skills & also build up competence in subs. But it was single hull. We then moved to double hull for A-class. So it was a huge learning experience. So this will be full circle but no reason it cannot be done.

So P-75I can clearly be Indian if India makes a committed effort. Some stuff like engines might need to be imported.

...

Add to that ongoing Scorpene ToT and build experience. Plus, Kilo refit experience.

All the pieces are in place (except engine tech) for India to make its own submarines, conventional and nuclear, going forward. Not sure what is being attempted with the P-75I?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 16 Dec 2015 17:40

Any new information on INS Aridhaman ????

the new thing is that it can carry 8 k4's instead of 4 in In INS Arihant & may have a bigger reactor(how many MW=????)

If these two things are considered than the tonnage of this submarine must be greater than INS Arihant.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 16 Dec 2015 18:09

^^ What is the translation of the article in Malayalam. Google translate doesnt translate it.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 17 Dec 2015 13:20

Wonderful bit of Article though some news also said it would be launched some time this Year.

It is a reality much of the Learning Curves has been done with INS Arihant and its time that Systems are standarized and Ships are taken for trials after getting necessary approvals from DAE & BARC.

We wish to see atleast 3 Indian Nuc subs to be under duty by 2020 with 1 Russian Sub being used as SSN.

The same will also be applicable for new type of SSN and it is pretty much certain it will join the forces only the end of next decade.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 18 Dec 2015 06:16

Honestly from engineering point such as Design, Engineering, Fabrication and Production we were capable and self sufficient from the early eighties.

Here is how with little cross pollination from various heavy public sector Giants

1 Heavy Enginnering corporation for sheet metal forming skills
2 steel plants for plates
3 Meacon for Engineering shop facilities
4 Bharat Heavt plates and Vessels for welding of plates and vessel design manufacturing
5 BHEL for Propulsion systems
6 DLW and Chittaranjan Locomotive for Diesle engine and prime mover
Recall the original engine of WDM2 is the grand mother of the diesel electric submarines of USN
7 Instrumenation India Kota ECIL and BEL for Control Systems including BHEL makThuristor controls for lot of steel plants Aluminium smelting etc

mazagon dcks, Visakha ship yard Gardeneeaxh

Most importantly IN who will drive requirements me oversea design with active program management Liason
Not exhaustive list but from top of my head

Private sector

L&T for welding technology
Tata for material Handling cranes

Sub contract as much as possible the fabrication
To local Pvt vendors

We missed many such synergy leveraging and exploitation

IMVHO

I have lot more at micro level the assignment of tasks aka specific skill and technology that all ready exists in many public sector

Some of the equipment in these public sector is amazing and awe inspiring even today

Some of the equipment can be retro fitted with CNC and modern controls to extended utility and make them functional

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Dec 2015 07:14

Arihant class being built at SBC is actually a private shipbuilder - L&T building.
Please note the speed and efficiency of assembly and fitting out of the most complex piece of naval hardware by a private company.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 18 Dec 2015 07:53

Gagan wrote:Arihant class being built at SBC is actually a private shipbuilder - L&T building.
Please note the speed and efficiency of assembly and fitting out of the most complex piece of naval hardware by a private company.

The speed is good. L&T only has Outfitting, Fabrication of Hull responsibility. Improtant Part is the various Vendors who need to supply systems on time , including tinely clearance from DGQA's to facilitate the receipt of equipment at SBC with the Outfitting Plan match and does not get held up due to one component.

Paralell Production Line concept can also be looked into if there is enough space within the SBC to reduce the lead time.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Dec 2015 11:17

Ak number 2 will be on its way! Deal to be sealed during the PM's visit.media reports.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Dec 2015 13:10

SBC: who heads it?

L&T, Hsl, navy or going?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 18 Dec 2015 18:34

The hull was by L and T not everything.
Prasanna

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 21 Dec 2015 14:51

The wiring harness development for a submarine itself is not a joke. We have all the infrastructure the only impedement is co ordination at program level. the drives are there, the control systems are there
The Instrumenation, the valves , the pumps, Diesel engine is there in the form of conceptual and to a great extent feasible design, some innovation is required, the propeller castings are there (Bronze) electric motors, gear box is there....

Just integration program management HAL can g e lot of feed back and as well as software for engine controls

vina · Post by **vina** » 23 Dec 2015 12:28

First Arihant photo I am seeing , showing it's profile. Photo by The Hindu, linked via Shiv Aroor's blog.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 23 Dec 2015 15:52

what/why another small hump in the back. Why does not the lines gracefully tilt downward? Any significance of that?

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 23 Dec 2015 16:16

vina wrote:

First Arihant photo I am seeing , showing it's profile. Photo by The Hindu, linked via Shiv Aroor's blog.

In what Ever configuration she may be, It looks like a Beast. I wonder How Much pride our Indian Naval Designers would have felt when she moved during for Sea Trials & carried Dummy ejection Trials.

Next 3 Boats will be even more lethal due to upgradations in various systems.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 23 Dec 2015 17:15

Do strategic submarines use COTS modules for IT/DSP/Communications? I am asking because the product commissioning is so slow that if they fit in 2005 era stuff, by 2015 it is almost ancient. I am asking since there are many videos of Akula still going around with 1980s gauges.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2015 20:23

^^ I think in aerospace you just cannot replace equipment or pull android updates off the web and hope it works....the requirements of sw and hw testing are way beyond civilian kit and take time and expenses so their update cycles are really slow vs civilian side and civilian aerospace is very slow to start with vs non-safety critical applications like consumer electronics.

---
the 2nd hump is not hump , just flat followed by dropping toward the tail.

the 2nd+ sub will have 4 more tubes, which being slightly inline and interleaved like the rounds on INSAS magazine will mean its around 10meters longer.

a 'proper' ICBM layout of 2 rows will need a bigger hull diameter if we want it silent and flush(western ssbn, Borey) or a ugly DeltaIV/Jin class 'box' shape

the mighty borei class....

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... trials.jpg

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Dec 2015 21:27

prahaar wrote:Do strategic submarines use COTS modules for IT/DSP/Communications? I am asking because the product commissioning is so slow that if they fit in 2005 era stuff, by 2015 it is almost ancient. I am asking since there are many videos of Akula still going around with 1980s gauges.

Look for BEL's video about COTS from Aeroindia seminar if you want a detailed answer. Note though that is BEL which is behind DRDO in terms of R&D.

Short answer, yes, all our programs use a lot of COTS, after suitable examination etc.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 24 Dec 2015 16:58

A small pooch to the gurus

Is ITR and STR applicable to submarines turning in submerged condition.

Also when making a turn like train or air craft does the banking angle

Tan X = velocity squared divided by radius of the turn circle arc times acceleration due to Gravity

Applicable?

From my Hydraulics by khurmi and Levit days I think but if that is so then the sub has to incline at angle of its longitudinal axis so the sailors would be inclined as well with respect to vertical?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2015 17:34

yes the subs can bank-turn like a plane but obviously not knife edge turns

see -> the father of the modern sub hull shape -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Dec 2015 18:29

Kilos follow the Albacore hull. Yes,there is no second "hump",just the outline of the main hull if you examine closely and taper towards the fin.

Here is an int. article on the advent of UUVs which are revolutionizing UW warfare. I posted along time ago that we should station a large number of UUVs in the A&N islands which would enable us to sanitise the Malacca chokepoint. UUVs also stationed at our principal naval bases could do wonders for detecting enemy subs and their UUVs sent from mother subs at extended ranges from the coastline. The IN should-if hasn't done so already ,begin a crash programme on dev of such submersibles. They would be very useful in also allowing our SSBNs to depart without detection by sanitizing the seas around our SSBN bases.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 86946.html

Trident: Nuclear deterrent under threat from underwater drones, expert warns

Advances in technology may turn Britain’s £31bn nuclear submarine programme into an expensive liability
David Connett |
16 hours ago|
Solar energy and waves power the Wave Glider unmanned robot Liquid Robotics

Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent could be torpedoed by an increasingly sophisticated breed of underwater drone, a leading defence expert has warned.

Rapid advances in underwater drone technology – autonomous underwater vehicles that can be controlled by ship- or land-based operators – threaten to make the controversial Trident nuclear submarines vulnerable, according to Paul Ingram, the chief executive of the British American Security Information Council (Basic).

Submarines have traditionally been seen as capable of providing stealth and invulnerability to pre-emptive attacks. The current requirement for Trident replacement subs is for them to operate as near to silently as possible.

However, a revolution in underwater drones, as well as advances in sonar, satellite and other anti-submarine warfare systems, mean that even totally silent submarines are likely to become detectable. Some sensor technologies can detect large submerged objects by monitoring small movements of surface water.

Cost of replacing Trident fleet 'has increased by £6bn'

Experts warn that as the capabilities of detecting systems improve and their cost falls, large-scale remote and potentially autonomous sensor deployments become possible. The result is that the world’s oceans will become increasingly transparent, seriously calling into question the UK’s heavy reliance upon the Trident submarine programme for its nuclear deterrence.

“There is a major transition taking place in the underwater battle space and it is far from clear how the new submarine will be able to evade detection from emerging sophisticated anti-submarine warfare capabilities,” Mr Ingram said.

The revolution seen in aerial drone capabilities in recent years was likely to be extended to underwater craft, he added. A US study recently reported that up to 50 aerial drones, controlled by one operator, had “swarmed” in a simulated co-ordinated attack. New algorithms, or mathematical formulas, to command and control much greater drone numbers are already being developed. Similar advances in underwater drone operation would make it harder for submarines to escape detection, he said.

The US navy and other states including China are already known to be carrying out extensive research into underwater drones.

“With satellite surveillance able to look further and further into the water, coupled with the possibility of ‘swarming’ underwater drones which are likely to become cheaper and cheaper to produce, it raises serious questions about the wisdom of putting all your nuclear weapons on board a submarine,” he argued. “The only purpose for doing that, it is claimed, is to make them hard to detect, which could well be impossible to achieve by the time the new Trident programme is launched.”

The Basic think-tank is concerned by the lack of informed public debate about Trident. “The worrying thing is that nobody is debating this. It is an issue that nobody wants to talk about,” Mr Ingram said.

“Campaigners against Trident don’t want to talk about it because it’s not about the purity of their anti-nuclear arguments. Those in favour of maintaining a nuclear deterrence do not want to talk about it because if the seas become transparent then the sense of putting all of our nuclear weapons in relatively slow moving platforms such as submarines will pose fresh difficulties,” he said.

Military experts point out that the Royal Navy has long been involved in “cat and mouse” warfare – with Germany during two world wars and then with the Russians during the Cold War and beyond. They insist that underwater drones are but the latest tool in a race between submariners and their detectors.

In January, Carol Naughton, of the non-proliferation group British Pugwash, will launch a research project into the appropriateness of Trident as a platform for the UK’s nuclear weapons capability.

“We are in danger of embarking on a major spend that will not only fail to deliver the invulnerability required of the proposed deterrent system, but is also likely to add a worrying degree of instability into the nuclear weapons situation,” she said.

Last month the Prime Minister revealed that the strategic defence and security review (SDSR) had put the cost of the four subs at £31bn, up from £25bn nine years ago. The review said a contingency fund of £10bn would be set aside, suggesting the MoD anticipates the costs could rise still further.

The first sub is not due to come into service until the early 2030s.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Dec 2015 08:27

In future "major powers" may not frequently fight a direct war . They will either beat up a hapless nation like Syria or pop up a munna like Turkey to fight their dirty wars. In either case top level weapons may not be fielded.

UK being a munna need not worry about that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2016 18:10

INS Arihant not to feature at International Fleet Review: Indian Navy chief
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

By IANS | 5 Feb, 2016, 03.05PM IST

VISAKHAPATNAM: Indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant will not feature at the ongoing International Fleet Review, the navy chief, Admiral R.K. Dhowan, said on Friday.

"No," the naval chief replied when asked if the submarine will feature at the IFR, without giving any details.

INS Arihant, a 6,000-tonne submarine, is presently in the final stages of sea trials.

This puts to rest speculation on the submarine's induction in the navy during the four-day event in which around 50 navies from around the globe are participating.

The event began on Thursday with the inauguration of a maritime exhibition and IFR village here.

Indian Navy officers have said in the past that they were keen to showcase INS Arihant at the IFR though there can be no compromises with the sea trials.

INS Arihant is India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, and the lead ship of Arihant class of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines launched in 2009.

It was initially expected to go for sea trials by 2012, though this happened only in December 2015.

The vessel's miniaturised nuclear reactor, built with Russian help, went critical in 2013.

Once inducted, the submarine will complete the country's nuclear triad, giving it the capability to respond to nuclear strikes from sea, land and air-based systems.

The project is being undertaken under the Advanced Technology Vessel programme under the supervision of the Prime Minister's Office and involving agencies and establishments such as the Defence Research and Development Organisation, the Department of Atomic Energy and the Submarine Design Group of the Directorate of Naval Design, besides private companies such as Larsen & Toubro.

The submarine's design is based on the Russian Akula-1 class submarines and its 83 MW pressurised water reactor has been built with significant Russian assistance.

While its 100-member crew has been trained by Russian specialists, Indian scientists at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre have received significant expertise in reducing the reactor size to help it fit into the 10-metre diameter hull of the submarine. {#ddmRinseRepeat}

India currently operates Russian-origin nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, which it leased for 10 years from Russia in 2012.

Nuclear submarines have the capability to stay out at sea longer, and don't need to surface for a long duration.

Conventional diesel-electric submarines have to come up to the surface at regular intervals for charging their batteries.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Feb 2016 18:55

My guess is that President/PM would probably steal a visit to SBC to take a look at Arihant and Aridaman.

Neither of the ships are commissioned to would not make sense to be part of IFR in any case

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2016 20:05

tomorrow 9 am boys ... a great day .... a character building day ... the day of Arihant the destroyer of enemies

let our displeasure with the world be well known

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2016 15:57

one missile door open. I dont think this was posted earlier

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2016 16:03

it also has a black and white spots pattern on the masts usually seen in subs that operate in arctic conditions for unknown reasons. the akula and no other indian sub has it.

like this 688 sub