Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 31 Mar 2016 11:36

shiv, it is the bolded that is cause for this rather pointless back n forth:

shiv wrote:Maybe bosphorus. Maybe phosphorus. But those are SDREs in orange life jackets


And not the SDRE part, which you are analyzing. The backdrop does look like Bhosporos and the blog seem to have very less interest in phosphorous. Time to move on.

The crew is probably on for some further training. One hopes the ship or some mothballed version, becomes available to the IN, to keep tab on the other two vessels in the line

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2016 13:14

http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-u ... deterrent/

we know the details but still a good summary of the arihant and follow on plans

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Mar 2016 20:58

Would it be feasible to have a large SSN larger than Akula size with two Arihant sized reactors and still fulfill "silent" profile requirements of modern day SSN?

The article above makes reference to the possibility of our next generation SSBN being powered by two reactors? The gut says, that would be loud.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2016 23:07

I don't know if anyone has built such a gear with two turbines in a submarine which has to be quiet.
Maybe one of those concept designs which are being traded.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 31 Mar 2016 23:12

ramana wrote:I don't know if anyone has built such a gear with two turbines in a submarine which has to be quiet.
Maybe one of those concept designs which are being traded.
A first gen US sub had two nuclear reactors.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Aditya G » 31 Mar 2016 23:58

Amongst the modern subs:

Installed power: 2 × pressurized water cooled reactors
Propulsion: 2 × steam turbines delivering 73,070 kW (97,990 shp) to two shafts


That much power - the Oscar Class behemoth.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ramana » 01 Apr 2016 01:26

With limited numbers India needs to think about low detection gear. Two reactors will be noisy.

Also need to think of South Indian Ocean as the deployment area.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2016 09:54

Oscar has 2 reactor so does Delta 4 but the noise level of Oscar is rated better than Akula SSN as per ONI Chart ,so noise level is not directly propotional to number of reactor , two reactor provides redundancy besides more power should you have one reactor failure. Stuff like Size of the platform , underwater endurance in months , crew size ,weapons load , crew comfort ( every one having its own cabin no hot bunking or tiny spaces ) decides the size of subs and adequate power needed for such task.

An Oscar SSGN was designed for under water endurance of 3-4 months and Typhoon was for 5-6 months should the need arise for such long endurance

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 01 Apr 2016 10:35

ShauryaT wrote:Would it be feasible to have a large SSN larger than Akula size with two Arihant sized reactors and still fulfill "silent" profile requirements of modern day SSN?

The article above makes reference to the possibility of our next generation SSBN being powered by two reactors? The gut says, that would be loud.


It is possible but the parameter which dictates size of any subs are Weapons/Payload , Sensors , Crew Size which is dictated by automation involved , Under Water Endurance ( any where between 1-3 months ) which then dictates the food supplies one carries and crew comfort needed for such long under water endurance is a premium for sub , Power/Reactor needed for all the above other things like like integrated Escape vessels , Quietening Technology used depending whats available to each country , also single hull or double hull design , As Akula is double hull the underwater displacement is 12000 T and actual its 8000T

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 10:20

Singha wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-undersea-deterrent/

we know the details but still a good summary of the arihant and follow on plans


What struck me was this part in the excellent write up by Saurav

The K-4 will also arm the other Arihant class boats currently under construction. The first of these boats, the INS Aridhaman, which for project purposes is designated S-3 with the Arihant being S-2, is expected to be launched soon. Aridhaman and the two other Arihant class boats that will follow it will be somewhat larger and more advanced than the Arihant. For one, the Arihant’s immediate successors will sport eight launch tubes as compared to the Arihant’s four with each tube capable of carrying either a single K-4 or three K-15 missiles. Due to the increased loadout and size, these follow-on ships will also have an up-rated version of the Arihant’s 90 MWth (thermal) pressurized water reactor (PWR).


By increasing the SLBM strength by 100 % from 4 to 8 and increasing PWR to 90 MWt , The Aridhaman class would easily under any classification would be a new Class of SSBN derived from Arihant class.

Aridhaman class would certainly be longer in length to accomodate 4 more silos and displacement wise it would be around ~ 10 K plus type if Arihant is ~ 6K type of SSBN , This proves that Arihant class is a TD for a more capable and larger Aridhaman class SSBN . It would also mean the new class would have to go through larger number of test point like Arihant class , would be a series production of Arihant class.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 06 Apr 2016 19:45

Austin wrote:It would also mean the new class would have to go through larger number of test point like Arihant class , would be a series production of Arihant class.
I am not sure of the above view, that this is a "new" design. It seems more of an uprated version of the Arihant reactor along with a size increase to accommodate the four additional tubes. Expecting the surfaced weight to be around 8000 tons (Akula sized) not 10K tons. The design will still incur some speed penalties compared to the Arihant's top speed of 24 knots, unless the thermal to electric conversion ratio is increased. I think there is a big question mark on what the next generation series production SSBN design will be and it will be determined by the reactor that we are able to assemble for the next SSN. We live with the Arihant extended design as our first gen SSBN until then.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby sohamn » 06 Apr 2016 22:24

Reactor is not necessarily more noisy, generally nuclear reactors are pretty quiet. It is the turbines that cause of lot of noise(relative). So if you have very quiet turbines then you should be able to accommodate more reactors. The other noise maker is the Screw / Prop and larger designs can create a lot of cavitation and noise if not properly designed. That is why some larger submarines are going for pump jets.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby SaiK » 06 Apr 2016 22:51

Is Arihant using on-board O2 canister tanks or seawater electrolysis? I am sure it is the latter for long-stay deep ops. Combined O2 gen with desalination process can be a double-edged sword for the trenches.

But then, groceries are something they have to hit the land to replenish (alternatively they can dock with A/Cs for replenishment of supplies). Don't know for how many days, the food supply can last. some foods perish faster.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Khalsa » 07 Apr 2016 00:22

Singha wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-undersea-deterrent/

we know the details but still a good summary of the arihant and follow on plans



An awesome article ... not only because of the tons of hand claspingly goodiness details of our machine and its power.
But the way he has written it up.....

Bravo

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 07 Apr 2016 01:58

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-undersea-deterrent/

What is the basis of speculation of a new powerplant? Has Navy or AEC/BARC made any such comments?

There are three submarine classes - a four multi role tube, an 8 multi role tube and an attack submarine still on the drawing board. AKAIK, all three are supposed to use the same powerplant.

Secondly, the name of the second submarine is Aridaman (no "h"). Credibility is lost when one doesn't get the name right. There is a precedence - there was a NPOL TAS project under development called NAGAN but some folks in BR started calling it NAGIN that was picked up by media and the incorrect name propagated.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 07 Apr 2016 07:06

tsarkar wrote:There are three submarine classes - a four multi role tube, an 8 multi role tube and an attack submarine still on the drawing board. AKAIK, all three are supposed to use the same powerplant.
Is the power plant for the SSN (attack submarine) confirmed as being the same as the S2-S4 series? if so, that will be news. Can you post the source. Thanks.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Singha » 07 Apr 2016 08:26

Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2016 08:51

ShauryaT wrote:
Austin wrote:It would also mean the new class would have to go through larger number of test point like Arihant class , would be a series production of Arihant class.
I am not sure of the above view, that this is a "new" design. It seems more of an uprated version of the Arihant reactor along with a size increase to accommodate the four additional tubes. Expecting the surfaced weight to be around 8000 tons (Akula sized) not 10K tons. The design will still incur some speed penalties compared to the Arihant's top speed of 24 knots, unless the thermal to electric conversion ratio is increased. I think there is a big question mark on what the next generation series production SSBN design will be and it will be determined by the reactor that we are able to assemble for the next SSN. We live with the Arihant extended design as our first gen SSBN until then.


Call it new design , Arihant 2 or Arihant plus for all practical purpose a increasing slbm silos by 100 % would mean a major engineering change because the CG would change , lets assume the reactor size is the same and diameter is also the same , the length would go up by few tens of meters.

They would probably also need a larger manpower atleast by few percentage then it has effect on the food supplies , bunking etc

All in all if Sauraj Jha news is correct I would say its a modified design for a new class of Arihant SSBN

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2016 08:54

tsarkar wrote:There are three submarine classes - a four multi role tube, an 8 multi role tube and an attack submarine still on the drawing board. AKAIK, all three are supposed to use the same powerplant.

Secondly, the name of the second submarine is Aridaman (no "h"). Credibility is lost when one doesn't get the name right. There is a precedence - there was a NPOL TAS project under development called NAGAN but some folks in BR started calling it NAGIN that was picked up by media and the incorrect name propagated.


I think they current reactor is running less then of its claimed capability to err on the conservative side as this would be the first of type BARC would be working with , moving to 90-95 MWt would be its true design capability , its not a huge leapfrog from the current 80 MWt capability for Arihant

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby member_29172 » 07 Apr 2016 08:56

Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that


Aridaman is a word, Aridhaman isn't. Nothing to do with pronunciation and it's wrong.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby deejay » 07 Apr 2016 09:32

Alka_P wrote:
Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that


Aridaman is a word, Aridhaman isn't. Nothing to do with pronunciation and it's wrong.


Jha is a bong in this case. :)

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby arshyam » 07 Apr 2016 10:23

Alka_P wrote:
Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that


Aridaman is a word, Aridhaman isn't. Nothing to do with pronunciation and it's wrong.

What does it mean anyway? (me an ignorant southie onlee, please don't jump on me :-))

Also, has the navy officially announced the name yet? Though I suppose if tsarkar-ji says so, if must be official.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby member_23370 » 07 Apr 2016 10:29

Ari-daman..Enemy killer(destroyer).

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby member_27581 » 07 Apr 2016 11:01

ari-daman
ari: enemy
daman: suppresser

ari-hant
hant: conquerer

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 07 Apr 2016 13:58

Austin wrote:all practical purpose a increasing slbm silos by 100 % would mean a major engineering change because the CG would change , lets assume the reactor size is the same and diameter is also the same , the length would go up by few tens of meters.

Stretching hulls is common practice.

We stretched Leander to Godavari,
Rajput to Delhi to Kolkata,
Type 1135.6 to Shivalik.
The US added a plug to SSN-23 USS Jimmy Carter.
The Spurance design was stretched to Ticonderoga.
The Gibbs & Cox Arleigh Burke design evolved to Block 2A and Block 3.
Airbus A-320 was stretched to A-321.

In none of these examples, powerplant was changed. Good designers keep margins that can leverage existing powerplants.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 07 Apr 2016 14:03

Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that

First of all, I meant no offence to regional nuances. Only wanted the correct name with proper meaning used. People often copy from various sources, including BRF forums, and end up cascading errors.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Yagnasri » 07 Apr 2016 14:08

Mango post alert.

In all the cases you have mentioned, the makers have some serious experiance in making the ships and subs. It is not the same case is Arihant class. Even now the sub seems to be under powered. ( is it? I may be wrong) Therefore are we sure that there is some margin is still there to add serious weight to the sub?

On the other hand, we may never really know that is the real power output etc. as the same will be classified anyway.

End mango alert.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby member_22539 » 07 Apr 2016 14:42

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India
Funnily enough even the wikipedia page says INS Aridhaman with an 'h'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Aridhaman


Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India
And only somebody who doesn't know anything about reactor technology will think that 'up-rating' an existing reactor means a new design.



Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India
A 10 or even 20 % power up-rate of an existing design can be achieved with modifications naturally.


Look who is watching :D

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2016 15:02

tsarkar wrote:We stretched Leander to Godavari,
Rajput to Delhi to Kolkata,
Type 1135.6 to Shivalik.
The US added a plug to SSN-23 USS Jimmy Carter.
The Spurance design was stretched to Ticonderoga.
The Gibbs & Cox Arleigh Burke design evolved to Block 2A and Block 3.
Airbus A-320 was stretched to A-321.

In none of these examples, powerplant was changed. Good designers keep margins that can leverage existing powerplants.


Yes but we are talking here of not 2 extra silos which is still 50% more than Arihant but 100 % increase.

SSN-23 with its plug in module or SSK with AIP module is a different ball game

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 07 Apr 2016 15:23

^^ Depends on the allowances kept by the designers. Does not necessarily require a powerplant change.

If I remember correctly, P Chidambaram wanted the extra silos in a CCS meeting, and the designers agreed to that immediately because there was design allowance.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 25929.html
In 2005, then finance minister P. Chidambaram, a member of the apex political committee steering the classified project, wondered why the Arihant, costing over a billion dollars (Rs 6,200 crore), carried only four missiles. The project team doubled the missile load on three subsequent vessels.

Good Naval Architects always provision for future growth. Like Kolkata accommodates heavier weapons like Brahmos and heavier radars like Elta 2248 while retaining the same Zorya powerplant

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Yagnasri » 07 Apr 2016 15:42

If that is the case, then the same power plant can be used for pure SSN type boat which need to more fast under the sea. Right?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2016 15:51

Look that sort of news is just airy fairy tale , Its not that the great submariner Mr P Chidambaram of Hyman G. Rickover fame said why it has just 4 silos and designer doubled it to 8 because he said so , Most likely DRDO would validate the basic design with Arihant and already had the 8 VLS silos on the drawing board to be of practical use for Deterrent purpose

Like I said we can argue if 8 Silos is just Arihant redisigned or Arihant plus or new Arihant ........I would say its a new design and probably a larger one of ~ 10000 T based on the kind of endurance and crew strength one is looking at but thats just me and others can have their own view ,may be time would answer that.

I am certainly happy that they double the silos and are going for a longer range SLBM

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby member_28108 » 07 Apr 2016 18:06

Quibbling on names it is not Daman Not a hard T Ta D Da Na (Hard N and D) but the Th Tha Dh Dha Na (soft N) - but Dhaman actually if you go byt the Sanskrit origin. Dhamana is slayer Ari is enemy. Similarly it is actually not Hant with a hard T but Th. The thing is a name can be as defined by the namer but if you want a translation then it is different.

How we name the vessel is a different thing .I think the second vessel has not been officially "christened" yet.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2016 20:18

FSU Golf class had four missiles.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 07 Apr 2016 20:35

tsarkar: Also, if you could post the source of the news that the Arihant design is the chosen one for the SSN/Attack "class" of submarines. I have heard many speculate on the matter and even a quote attributed to BARC that, it is what they propose but is this a confirmed thing?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 07 Apr 2016 23:47

^^ No, the attack submarine will be a new design for which design work was yet to start (as of last year) and will take approx 15 years as per VCNS comments in the media.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 076623.cms

We have started work but still are at the pen to paper stage," Vice Admiral P Murugesan, the Vice Chief of Naval staff said

The top officer expressed confidence in the abilities of the navy's submarine design bureau to come out with a new class of vessels in less than 15 years. "These things take time but we will be able to improve on the timelines that the pioneers (nations) have set which typically took over 15 years for such a project," the Vice Chief said

2015+15=2030 indicates the R&D effort to build a silent boat to kill other submarines.

The 8 silo submarine is an evolution of Arihant. The fact that it is coming out faster indicates it's an evolution rather than a revolution.

I would use the analogy of last two Giris (Taragiri & Vindhyagiri) that carried a heavier Seaking instead of Chetak of earlier four.

As per my understanding, the powerplant will be common to all three, though improvements based on experience will be incorporated.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 08 Apr 2016 06:29

^OK. In sync now, some confusion due to an earlier post, where I confused the three to mean the 4 tube version, 8 tube version and the attack sub. All cleared up now. Thanks.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby dinesha » 09 Apr 2016 06:13

Maiden Test of Undersea K-4 Missile From Arihant Submarine
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 370608.ece
BALASORE: Notwithstanding international pressures India has secretly conducted the maiden test of its nuclear capable undersea ballistic missile, code named K-4, from homegrown submarine INS Arihant at an undisclosed location in the Bay of Bengal.

A reliable source on Friday told ‘The New Indian Express’ that the test conducted on March 31 nearly 45 nautical miles away from Vishakhapatnam coast in Andhra Pradesh was highly successful. The indigenously developed weapon with a dummy payload was reportedly launched from the submarine in full operational configuration.

The trial was carried out with the support of the personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) while the DRDO provided all logistics. The missile was fired from 20-meter deep and it pierced into the sky after breaking the water surface. INS Arihant had first successfully fired a prototype of K-15 (B-05) missile in November last year.

The K-4 missile was fired from onboard silos of the ship submersible ballistic, nuclear (SSBN) submarine demonstrating the capability of the newly built underwater warship to fire long range nuclear capable missiles and the killing efficiency of the most advanced state-of-the-art weapon system.

“Having an operational range of nearly 3,500 km, the missile was fired towards north for a shorter range. It covered more than 700 km before zeroing on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP),” informed the source.

DRDO officials however refused to speak on the mission. While the officials associated with K-4 mission and Arihant project were tight-lipped, Director General of DRDO Selvin Christopher did not respond calls from this paper.

On March 7, this missile was test fired from a submerged pontoon (replica of a submarine) positioned nearly 30 feet deep sea offshore Vizag coast. Although, the DRDO didn’t officially confirm about the secret mission, it was learnt that the test was a roaring success.

Even as the DRDO had reportedly conducted the first test of the missile system, which was developed under a secret project, in 2010, it officially admitted to have a missile named K-4 with a video footage of the missile launch in the Aero-India show in January last year.

Reports indicated the K-4 missile with the features of boost-glide flight profiles is designed to defeat any anti-ballistic missile systems. Equipped with the satellite updates to modify accumulated errors from its inertial navigation system, the weapon system is claimed to be quite dangerous and one of its kind in the world.

The 111-metre-long INS Arihant has four vertical launch tubes, which are capable of carrying 6 torpedoes of 533 mm and 12 B-05 (K-15) missiles or 4 K-4 missiles.

Powered by an 85 MW capacity nuclear reactor with enriched uranium fuel, this submarine can achieve surface speeds of 12 knots to 15 knots, and submerged speeds of up to 24 knots, carrying a crew of 95.

Apart from Arihant, the K-4 will also arm another Arihant class submarine INS Aridhaman which is currently under construction along with two others. These submarines will have eight launch tubes each
Last edited by dinesha on 09 Apr 2016 06:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby sum » 09 Apr 2016 06:19

^^ Wow, quite a milestone if Arihant already conducted its missile test.

Given that the report is from Rout, would assume its true and congrats to the team involved on the success!

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2016 06:38

He has deep state sources in DRDO test establishment


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