Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Austin
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indian nuclear submarines -3

Postby Austin » 08 Dec 2016 12:37

Likely 1 Foxtrot is operational and used for Submariner Training

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby pkudva » 08 Dec 2016 13:34

hnair wrote:pkudva, INS Viraat is around


I thought It had been tigged from Cochin to Mumbai for De-commissioning. In this stage it will not be in Operational state.

Pls correct me if I am wrong.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 08 Dec 2016 14:26

pkudva wrote:
hnair wrote:pkudva, INS Viraat is around


I thought It had been tigged from Cochin to Mumbai for De-commissioning. In this stage it will not be in Operational state.

Pls correct me if I am wrong.


It came on its own power, still operational and in commission. Those visiting the harbour can see it moored. It will be decommissioned shortly.

But until that moment, the flag and the ensign fly strongly from it.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 08 Dec 2016 14:31

Austin wrote:Likely 1 Foxtrot is operational and used for Submariner Training

10 Sindhu + 4 Type 209 + 1 Arihant + 1 Chakra are in commission

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Dec 2016 14:38

how can 1 Sindhu be in commission when it has sunk in the harbour.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 08 Dec 2016 16:12

Aditya_V wrote:how can 1 Sindhu be in commission when it has sunk in the harbour.

Image
Salvaged, and the flag still flies. She's got a fresh coat of anti corrosion paint. Refit being assessed.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Dec 2016 16:14

Can't see it is service and ready for war atleast for a few years, even it will be worth the time, money and effort.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2016 23:32

Aditya: If the navy sees fit - the only opinion that matters - then yes.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Aditya G » 09 Dec 2016 00:43

tsarkar/maz, any news of Cadet Training Ships under order with ABG? Or the OPVs with Pipavav (Reliance)?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Rakesh » 09 Dec 2016 00:45

dude...wrong thread. I have replied to your query in the Indian Navy News & Discussion thread.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Indranil » 09 Dec 2016 13:46

First illustrations of the follow on class of Arihant?
Image
Image
Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Indranil » 09 Dec 2016 13:58

Better pictures here.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Pratyush » 09 Dec 2016 15:54

Don't think so, it's just a sketch of a sub. Nothing to it.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby tsarkar » 09 Dec 2016 15:59

Nope, just an illustration based on the Arihant. The hull has the shape of Arihant hull but the sail has been rudely shaved off from the front. No hydroplanes too :wink: and the propellor has been photoshopped to 3 blades instead of 7

But the seminar would definitely be a good opportunity for industry to participate. This is also where potential innovations are brought to the notice of IN / DRDO

Page 3 has a good cross section of the Arihant, while Page 4 has an elongated hull Kavari with a accurate sail.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 09 Dec 2016 16:13

Barring the Sail Design , It looks similar to Borei class , Clearly Double hull design

Image
Image
Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 28 Dec 2016 12:15

Austin, your post of that video of the modified (and relaunched) Delphin-class looks very familiar. Particularly the gentle hump and square sail

Just saying :oops:

Cross posting:
Austin wrote:


Very interesting looking shape, this Moscow and the earlier re-launched Podmoskovye (BS 64). Particularly the gently sloping hump and that sail 8)

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 28 Dec 2016 18:23

hnair wrote:Austin, your post of that video of the modified (and relaunched) Delphin-class looks very familiar. Particularly the gentle hump and square sail

Just saying :oops:

Cross posting:

Very interesting looking shape, this Moscow and the earlier re-launched Podmoskovye (BS 64). Particularly the gently sloping hump and that sail 8)


If you are referring to ATV design yes that is typical Rubin design with double hull ,Square Sail with diving plane and limber holes , The hump size depends on the length of the SLBM

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 29 Dec 2016 08:19

Austin, there are not many clear pics of Arihant, except the one below. S o the open sources foras has been struggling to figure out how the aft portions (after the missile plugs) look like. This re-design photos of the RUssian special ops sub is the closest to Arihant's shape from the scant pics. Makes a lot of sense, must have been really quietened down.

Usual Delta IV class (like this fairly modified chinese example) has what Gerard has hilariously put, "boxy with very trireme-sque limber holes where any moment a line of rowers will poke their rows and start paddling" (dont remember his exact lines). The Moscow and Podmoskovye seems more refined and closer to the Borei

Type 094 (with modified sloping missile plug double hull)
Image

Image

Classic Delta IV (huge box hump with no side sloping of double hull:
Image

Image

Image

Now for the one that sort of caught my eye:

Arihant:
Image

Image

Podomoskovye (Delta IV Stretch):
Image

Image

aft part of Podomoskovye
Image

Speculative diagram of Arihant

Image
Last edited by hnair on 30 Dec 2016 19:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected typo of Delta IV Stretch

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 29 Dec 2016 10:24

The image of Arihant shared so far gives a good idea about external shape typical its hull design , sail , rudder etc one can make some basic conclusion about the design.

Podomoskovye (Delta V Stretch) is not Delta V but just Delta 4 converted for Special Purpose Research submarine , the Hump is missing as it does not carry any SLBM.

Having a hump or having low hump does not really indicate how quite the sub is , hump affects the flow noise at higher speed that in turn affects the general broadband noise of submarine when it reaches certain speed which makes it vulnerable to detection at short range , it can still remain below the threshold speed and remain silent.

The key aspect of silencing sub is its internal noise which is noise from reactor ,machinery ,screws ,pumps , motors , blade tonal these things makes more noise and is a science and art to silence these noise which forms key aspect of subs narrow band noise and is key to sub detection and identification at long ranges , broadband noise interferes with ocean noise too and can get absorbed by surrounding compared to narrow band noise and looking at the sub wont tell you how noisy it is.

Rubin designers has mentioned in one of their interviews I read that they managed to reduce the noise of Delta 4 SSBN and make it comparable to Ohio class and that Typhoon ssbn which had no hump and multilayer of insulation of double hull sub were more noisier than Delta 4

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 30 Dec 2016 16:52

Good Details on Arihant program by Rear Admiral Sushil Ramsay (Retd)

Arihant—Functional Arm of India’s Nuclear Triad!

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 30 Dec 2016 19:57

My last post on this, since I think we are talking across each other:

Austin, I was commenting on the hull form closely resembling the Arihant and only that aspect. No clear perspective photos of Arihant exists for us to speculate on its full contours, unlike the Delta IV Stretch's better quality photos and videos. I did not see anyone officially saying "Arihant class is evolved from XYZ design", so mere speculation here

Rest of the things about acoustics et al, I dont have any insights or comments.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Austin » 30 Dec 2016 21:44

Ok point take may be I got the question wrong

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Aditya G » 30 Dec 2016 22:04

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story.asp?mid=52&id=1

..........SP’s: There are reports to suggest that the Defence Acquisition Council has approved indigenous development of additional SSBN and SSN platforms. Would you like to offer comments on the approved plans?

CNS: Construction/acquisition of nuclear powered ballistic attack submarines (SSBNs) is under the purview of Nuclear Command Authority and no specific data is available for the same. As regards nuclear powered attack submarines (SSNs), the Cabinet Committee on Security approved the construction of six SSNs in January2015 and the same would be constructed as per planned schedules.........


i.e. SSNs will be under naval command.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Karthik S » 30 Dec 2016 22:09

Any info about SSN timelines? It's not mentioned in the above QnA.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Dec 2016 22:26

Aditya G wrote:i.e. SSNs will be under naval command.
Have to be, they do not have any strategic role. But even the SSBN's, it is only the top commanders, who are under SFC. Operationally all under naval command. Another reason this distinction is made is due to budget. SSBN not from naval budget. Hence, CNS makes a point to make that distinction and surely knows the importance of not saying ANYTHING on the SSBN as secrecy of this asset is supreme. IOW: Transparency stops at the gates of strategic assets.

Wish we had something more on the SSN's though. We need movement here, these assets take a long lead time.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 30 Dec 2016 23:22

Austin wrote:Good Details on Arihant program by Rear Admiral Sushil Ramsay (Retd)

Arihant—Functional Arm of India’s Nuclear Triad!


Good write up, but wasn't a missile of the K series actually test fired from Arihant, as opposed to from a submerged pontoon?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby SSridhar » 31 Dec 2016 15:25

Varoon Shekhar wrote: Good write up, but wasn't a missile of the K series actually test fired from Arihant, as opposed to from a submerged pontoon?

Varoon, it was claimed, though not by DRDO, that the missile was successfully fired from INS Arihant on Mar 31, 2016 at an undisclosed location in Bay of Bengal. It later turned out to be Tillanchang island in the Nicobar island chain where a temporary missile firing range is being setup. Thus, AFAIK, two K4 tests were done without any announcement until March 2016.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 09 Jan 2017 09:39

Cross posting:

sum wrote:Was this posted?

Roundup of 2016 by Shri Rout:

DRDO missions: Many hits, few misses

With successful flight testing of longest range nuclear capable Inter-Continental Range Ballistic Missile Agni-V, trials of submarine launched long ballistic missile K-4 from INS Arihant and continued successful user trials of Prithvi-II, BrahMos, Agni-I, Akash, Dhanush and Astra missiles besides addition of new weapon systems, the eventful year displayed the nation's prowess and self-reliance in advanced missile technology development programme.

.....
On April 8, notwithstanding international pressure, India secretly conducted the maiden test of its nuclear capable undersea ballistic missile K-4 from homegrown submarine INS Arihant from an undisclosed location in Bay of Bengal.


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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 09 Jan 2017 09:40

Crossposting from Missile thread:

shashankk wrote:India reply to China concern: Another Nuke missile test

BHUBANESWAR: Amidst rising concern of China over successful test firing of ICBM Agni-V, India is contemplating a fresh test of its longest range submarine-launched ballistic missile, code named K-4, which is capable of delivering nuclear warhead over 3,500 km away.
Sources said, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is planning to conduct the test from an undersea platform in the Bay of Bengal by month-end.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 15--1.html

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby hnair » 09 Jan 2017 09:42

hnair wrote:Crossposting from Missile thread:

shashankk wrote:India reply to China concern: Another Nuke missile test

BHUBANESWAR: Amidst rising concern of China over successful test firing of ICBM Agni-V, India is contemplating a fresh test of its longest range submarine-launched ballistic missile, code named K-4, which is capable of delivering nuclear warhead over 3,500 km away.
Sources said, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is planning to conduct the test from an undersea platform in the Bay of Bengal by month-end.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 15--1.html



“This time an advanced variant of the missile will be tested to validate new technologies incorporated in the system. The test would be for a higher range also,” the source added.
A successful trial of the missile would strengthen the country’s position in the exclusive club of six nations including Russia, USA, France, UK and China which have the capability of firing nuclear tipped missiles from air, land and undersea.

A defence scientist said, this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at a hypersonic speed. “This exceptional feature of the weapon system makes it difficult to be tracked easily and destroyed by any anti-ballistic missile defence system. The missile has a high accuracy of near-zero circular error probable (CEP),” he said.


So greater range, newer tech. Would it be the debut of an aerospike?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Prasad » 09 Jan 2017 10:37

Call me dumb but that sounds similar to how the shourya is described no? All that 3-d dancing etc.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Bheeshma » 09 Jan 2017 11:07

Nope that part must be about K-15. So they are still sticking to 17 tonne 1.3 m dia bit. I thought the Arihant Silos were 2.1 m wide. How do they pack this 1.3 m missile in it?
Last edited by Bheeshma on 09 Jan 2017 12:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2017 11:20

they use a sub caliber liner tube. same way 4 x ESSM gets packed into a Mk41 VL cell or 5-6 Kalibrs/Yakhont into each tube in Yasen SSN or Thawks in Virginia. world is strongly moving in that direction. innovative uses are use one as a swimout chamber for frogmen. the german u216 proposed this application iirc.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Bheeshma » 09 Jan 2017 12:23

Yeah and it makes sense if you can pack multiple missiles in a larger silo. There is no way to get 2 K-4 missiles in a single silo. Was the silo made bigger so it could take the larger K-5?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ShauryaT » 09 Jan 2017 19:43

One thing to note on the SSN project. It has CCS approval, which would mean the specifications of the Sub are fairly well defined by now? Any public information on this score on what it is? Timelines?

Are IN and BARC on the same page?

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Bheeshma » 10 Jan 2017 01:00

Time for K-4/5 to be tested from Arihant. pakis have been given chinese sub based cruise missile.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2017 01:04

Prasad wrote:Call me dumb but that sounds similar to how the shourya is described no? All that 3-d dancing etc.


Not dumb.
What the report if accurate says the K4 also has the K15 attributes.

As always lets see. Month end is not too far off.

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2017 21:58

India to Test Nuclear-Capable Submarine-Launched Ballistic Missile
https://sputniknews.com/military/201701091049409014-india-test-ballistic-missile/

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2017 22:09

After ICBM, India to test 3500 km K-4 from a Submarine
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=249786

Nice picture :)

Image

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -3

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jan 2017 21:25

Submarine Propulsion: Muscle Power to Nuclear
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/777813152595451906


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