Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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hgupta
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby hgupta » 05 Mar 2019 13:15

Why are we paying $3 billion dollars for a ten year lease of a nuke sub? We should be buying it not leasing for that kind of money.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby PratikDas » 05 Mar 2019 13:17

hgupta wrote:Why are we paying $3 billion dollars for a ten year lease of a nuke sub? We should be buying it not leasing for that kind of money.

It's a nuclear sub and not for sale.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby hgupta » 05 Mar 2019 13:22

PratikDas wrote:
hgupta wrote:Why are we paying $3 billion dollars for a ten year lease of a nuke sub? We should be buying it not leasing for that kind of money.

It's a nuclear sub and not for sale.


Then we should use the money to build our nuke subs. Why do we need to get another Russian nuke sub if we are building 5 more nuke subs? I don’t see the justification for that.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Mar 2019 13:30

Cause it takes time atleast 10 years before we get a SSN operational, no point being nanga till then.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby JTull » 05 Mar 2019 15:26

hgupta wrote:Why are we paying $3 billion dollars for a ten year lease of a nuke sub? We should be buying it not leasing for that kind of money.


I suspect our own 6 SSN program is based on this one. There could be a simultaneous equipping of the incomplete hull in Russia and probably a brand new one here.

The $3bln figure doesn't have be made public, but it tells what is not being said. That our SSN program is progressing.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby mody » 06 Mar 2019 15:48

JTull wrote:
hgupta wrote:Why are we paying $3 billion dollars for a ten year lease of a nuke sub? We should be buying it not leasing for that kind of money.


I suspect our own 6 SSN program is based on this one. There could be a simultaneous equipping of the incomplete hull in Russia and probably a brand new one here.

The $3bln figure doesn't have be made public, but it tells what is not being said. That our SSN program is progressing.


I think more then the design of the SSN, we need help in desiging higher capacity nuke reactors for the SSN. Our SSN will perhaps be the same size as the Arihant, without the missile tubes and with a bigger or more powerful reactor. There will be VLS tubes for the Brahmos, but these will be smaller then the tubes on the Arihant. I don't think our SSN will be as big and heavy as the Akula-II. Having a 120+ MWe reactor that fits into the hull of the sub is the challenge for us. Ruski consultation/help might have been sought for the same.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Barath » 06 Mar 2019 16:49

Karan M wrote:>>The work requires a complete build-up and activation of the nuclear reactor that powers it and the fitment of a large number of unspecified Indian original systems for communication and domain area awareness.

This means we find our stuff on our KILOs to be better than what we got from the Russkies on their Akula. Interesting!!


Communication is with other Indian systems, facilities,ships etc, so it might not be too surprising. Domain area awareness is interesting choice of words. I wonder if this means something like a battlespace or navigation space visualization system, rather than a sonar or SOSUS (hope) communication system. Such a system could leverage indian electronics and integration, and could even be a spin off from Arihant class. (speculation, only. I doubt of HDW or Scorpene stuff IP could be used)

Also worth pointing that Akula class is rather old and outdated and Russian supply chain is moved on to Yasen class. So instead of custom-creating a single modernized system in a supply chain that has moved on, it might make sense to use one from existing Indian supply chain and modify

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Barath » 06 Mar 2019 17:15

JTull wrote:
hgupta wrote:Why are we paying $3 billion dollars for a ten year lease of a nuke sub? We should be buying it not leasing for that kind of money.


I suspect our own 6 SSN program is based on this one. There could be a simultaneous equipping of the incomplete hull in Russia and probably a brand new one here.


I hope not. Akula is quite good, but it is 2 generations behind cutting edge and large. Our SSN should be designed and made in India, (optionally with Russian help) not by Russia in Russia You can hide things in that figure. Like extending Chakra II lease, paying for repair, etc , modernization, weapons/heavy torpedos for larger fleet. etc. But quite likely most of them will turn out untrue.

Also, India has shortage of HEU for reactor - whatever is left over from weapons (not many , most will be Pu) will be prioritized for Arihant class. So we are getting nuclear fuel, refueling facility and save money on defueling and decommisioning/storage of that nuclear fuel. We will eventually have to do that for our own boats, but setting up a nuclear industry is very pricy (that's why manhattan project was expensive.) Deferring that price and saving some, can make sense.

Also, sub design is very complex. There are multiple interrelations. Large reactor requires large cross-section, and hence drag, and eats away available power and speed, especially for a SSN. By having an advanced small reactor, you can even create a small, fast SSN with similar capabilities. (This does not work with SSBN where sie is set by missile size). A lot of automation can also help. You can see this in the Soviet Alfa class, which had a liquid sodium reactor, titanium hull and was small fast, noisy , highly automated, with a small crew. it was an ambitious and highly influential failure (ie noisy and fast were not the way forward, liquid sodium reactor had to be ept molten, but the other influences affect a lot of soviet/russian design. A high power reactor can be got by increasing size (drag), increasing HEU and nuclear technology (needs high nuclear tech, impacts amount of HEU available,and impacts life between expensive/time consuming refueling)

The US had some concepts around CONFORM , which also looked at advanced, small subs, but Rickover moved them to Los Angeles Class by force.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/ ... pic=7792.0

Husky is also likely to be smaller and cheaper, (but tough to design.). And Russian Navy refused Indian request of Yasen for Chakra III (they have shortage of vessels as is, and might have sensitivities)

So I would rather India try a more advanced,smaller, cheaper, high strength steel design with more automation, for our SSN design, even with extensive russian consulting,than retread the Akula design. Hopefully, we may have the design and manufacturing strength to do so

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby dinesha » 07 Mar 2019 17:19

India and Russia ink $3 billion deal for lease of third nuclear submarine
The Akula-class Russian submarine, expected to arrive in 2025, will be named Chakra III after its predecessors, and will be fitted with Indian systems.
https://theprint.in/defence/india-and-r ... ne/202509/

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 07 Mar 2019 18:50

I hope it is not Akula - II, otherwise I will have to distribute Mithai.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby raja_m » 08 Mar 2019 00:43

Rakesh wrote:I hope it is not Akula - II, otherwise I will have to distribute Mithai.


Rajat Pandit :oops: says - Akula I
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 308925.cms

contract for the Akula-1 class submarine, which will be ready by around 2025

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Lisa » 08 Mar 2019 01:18

Rakesh wrote:I hope it is not Akula - II, otherwise I will have to distribute Mithai.


(Akula 1) + (Akula I) = Akula II :)

Cough up!

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby hgupta » 08 Mar 2019 04:23

raja_m wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I hope it is not Akula - II, otherwise I will have to distribute Mithai.


Rajat Pandit :oops: says - Akula I
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 308925.cms

contract for the Akula-1 class submarine, which will be ready by around 2025


if it is Akula I, then we are being taken for a ride. I would rather spend our hard earned cash on our own native indigenous nuke subs. More bang for the buck.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2019 05:38

We do not have any native indigenous SSNs yet. We have 2 - 3 SSBNs, depending on source.

The SSN fleet is still in planning phase. The hull may be of an Akula I, but she will end up being equal to or even better than Akula II with the upgrades in sensors, hardware and weaponry. At that rate, I will have to start distributing mithai onlee :((

Thank goodness, I only have to start in 2025! :lol: Hopefully, many of you will forget by then. Lisa :wink:

The Indian systems on board will serve as a test bed for our own upcoming SSN fleet.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Karthik S » 08 Mar 2019 11:22

This means we won't be having indigenous SSN even by 2025.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 11:29

it all depends on how ready the new powerful sub reactor is. rest of the stuff can be done its funded.
no details on the power rating and how it differents from arihant class reactor.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Cain Marko » 08 Mar 2019 11:49

Rakesh wrote:
Thank goodness, I only have to start in 2025! :lol: Hopefully, many of you will forget by then. Lisa :wink:
.

Fat chance Saar, but you can always hope. Admiral and mithai will probly become part of br lexicon forever... :D

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 08 Mar 2019 13:17

Couple of Points here , Related or Unrelated to Indian Akula Deal

Russians are currently upgrading their Akula 971 to 971M standard , 6 of them and the 1st of the upgrade to hit waters this years.
971M upgrade includes Upgraded Sonar , Weapons ( new torpedoes ( Ugst-M ) and Kalbir LACM and Large Decoys
Acoustic quietening levels close to 4th gen SSN ( 4th Gen SSN would be Yasen class )
The Russians dont classify their Akula as Akula 1 , Akula 2 or 3 ....That is just western classification

Indian Akula Deal

Since we are getting this Akula by 2025 this upgrade will be close to 971M Standard.
Quietening close to 4th Gen SSN ( similar to Virginia/Asute class )
Weapons could be Kalbir LACM ( as we are MTCR now ) plus possibly Indian and Russian Torpedoes plus decoys.
Indian ESM/EW system etc which are already part of Kilo package

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Singha » 08 Mar 2019 13:51

We gotta use this chance to build and test a new spherical ushus sonar on akula for our ssn class ears are most important. While akula front end design cannot change our ssn design needs to have a huge spherical sonar in front wet chamber and then only torpedo room using side inclined tubes below.
Nirbhay brahmos ulvs two huge tubes aft of sail

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 08 Mar 2019 14:03

They wont tinker with an operational submarine , mostly like the sonars sensors would still be an upgraded Russian model like 971M because these systems are closely integrated with weapons , tested and proven over years of operational expereince and to integrate new sonars etc would take a lot of time and effort to integrate with onboard system weapons etc Something similar to you cant integrated a Radar with other BVR missiles but that would still be a small task compared to sonar and other sensors.

To integrate a Speherical Sonar means you will have to re-design the entire sub front end , At some point we will need a Test Submarine to do these Speherical or even new larger Cylincrical Sonar at different depth , acoustic conditions etc , The russian have a dedicated submarine to test Sonars and weapons. We might well have our own Test Submarine eventually as we build our fleet

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Will » 08 Mar 2019 15:29

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
Thank goodness, I only have to start in 2025! :lol: Hopefully, many of you will forget by then. Lisa :wink:
.

Fat chance Saar, but you can always hope. Admiral and mithai will probly become part of br lexicon forever... :D


I hope the Admiral has been saving up for this all these years :D . I think we need to setup a rolling fund to help the Admiral out . Can’t let the Admiral default on his promise. :P

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 22 Mar 2019 12:59

India's submarine deal with Russia raised by some US Congress members with FS: Sources

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 439738.cms

Some members of the US Congress raised the issue as they have some mis-perception about it, sources said, adding Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale also explained to them that the submarine will only have conventional weapons.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby chetak » 22 Mar 2019 18:37

Austin wrote:India's submarine deal with Russia raised by some US Congress members with FS: Sources

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 439738.cms

Some members of the US Congress raised the issue as they have some mis-perception about it, sources said, adding Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale also explained to them that the submarine will only have conventional weapons.


conventional nuclear weapons :wink:


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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby DrRatnadip » 28 May 2019 23:19


I dont know why this news is published.. :evil: public need not know so many details involving nuclear sub

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 28 May 2019 23:40

Lifafa pieces already disproven Dr Sahib. No need to worry.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby wig » 24 Jun 2019 10:10

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 921014.cms

Work begins on India’s next gen nuclear-powered submarines
excerpted from the above
work has started on the Rs 1 lakh crore project to produce next generation nuclear-powered submarines for the Indian Navy, with a defence public sector unit working on a special alloy for the hull. A scale model is likely to be tested soon as part of the design process.

and
The plan to build six nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSNs) kicked off in 2015 when the NDA government gave a go ahead to a long-pending project for the Indian Navy. Then Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba confirmed in 2017 that the project is underway.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby abhik » 24 Jun 2019 17:37

Who is going to build them? I hope it is L&T, I don't see the point of doing screwdriver-giri for an SSK now.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Singha » 24 Jun 2019 19:50

Numbers dada numbers ... we need 40 subs to terrorize the IOR and west pacific

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby SaiK » 24 Jun 2019 20:01

(MIDHANI) is also working on indigenising a new material for the hull
so, from which country?

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby darshhan » 24 Jun 2019 21:18

Singha wrote:Numbers dada numbers ... we need 40 subs to terrorize the IOR and west pacific


I doubt if India can achieve these numbers anytime soon. After taking into consideration both the PSU shipyards plus L&T shipyard capacities. The best way to make up for the shortfall is manned-unmanned teaming made possible by increasingly capable UUVs. That is also the practical approach.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 24 Jun 2019 23:32

SaiK wrote:
(MIDHANI) is also working on indigenising a new material for the hull
so, from which country?


had posted about that require some time back, I think the new steel would be better or equivalent to HY 100, the Navy's requirement is not something that is readily available off the shelf, it seems.

the sub would be deep diving, fast SSN at par with the latest subs of its time, Navy's thinking is into the future, not catch up.


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