Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby nachiket » 07 Apr 2020 00:35

Indranil wrote:This project precedes the Scorpenes by a big margin. It was designed and built with considerable Russian help.

The SSN project? It seems to have just begun and is in the Initial Design stage according to the previous report.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Apr 2020 12:19

Arihant class started out as SSN's, the project requirements were changed post Pokran to SSBN,a. I guess this is what Indranil was referring to.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Prithwiraj » 08 Apr 2020 08:12

With massive bail out coming due to corona virus a lot of big budget acquisitions will definitely get stalled like nuclear sub as well as additional Rafael as well as even the manned space mission. No country has the appetite for any war any more for next 20 years including US.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby BajKhedawal » 08 Apr 2020 08:23

Prithwiraj wrote:With massive bail out coming due to corona virus a lot of big budget acquisitions will definitely get stalled like nuclear sub as well as additional Rafael as well as even the manned space mission. No country has the appetite for any war any more for next 20 years including US.


That logic does not apply to neighbors like Papistan and foxy china both of which will gladly and gleefully go to war with India, papistan will as it is the crux of its existence, and china will to deflect world attention from its attempt at biowarfare to capture #1 spot globally.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Apr 2020 08:25

Countries like China and especially Pakis are like Jackals, they prey on weakness. We need to double down on MIC if anything.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby yensoy » 08 Apr 2020 11:42

Aditya_V wrote:Countries like China and especially Pakis are like Jackals, they prey on weakness. We need to double down on MIC if anything.


You don't fight "irregular" infiltrators on the border with nuclear subs. Pakis are like jackals, what they need is a good pounding of their posts on the LoC or IB from time to time.

China... yes China is a threat. But superpowers don't become superpowers by picking a fight with countries of their size (just as viruses don't succeed in the long run by killing their host). The Cold War has shown that superpowers project their interests on small and weak states through proxies. I doubt China is going to pick a war with us in the near future, especially considering that the world is today hyper aware of the Chinese wanting to upend the world order and will support India in more ways than one. Besides we do have deterrents in place - pushing out the new SSNs and SSBNs by a couple of years will hardly change the strategic calculus.

I think any budgetary money spent on foreign arms purchases (except for wartime supplies and select strategic acquisitions) at this juncture is a huge wrong. At the minimum, deals should be renegotiated - with every tool on the table - numbers, prices, delivery and payment schedules, offsets, ToT etc. Every government and corporation will listen - it's not like they have a choice.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Apr 2020 12:44

Pakis send irregulars because they feel they are immune to retaliation, If we are dedicated to alter the militarily economic balance, they and their masters will be forced to behave. Yes we are nowhere near that military strength which we require, but we must work towards over the next 20 years. But we Indians must face the fact, they cannot let us be at peace.

Nuke subs plays a role, it deters others from helping Pakis, a Turkey or Malaysia will also factor these things in their calculations. We need to first have the ability and then show we are willing to act.

The more powerful India is, the lesser other players will be willing to help the Pakis.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby yensoy » 08 Apr 2020 17:22

Aditya_V wrote:Nuke subs plays a role, it deters others from helping Pakis, a Turkey or Malaysia will also factor these things in their calculations. We need to first have the ability and then show we are willing to act.


Nuke subs do zero to deter non-nuclear nations like Malaysia or Turkey. Big frigates making port calls and fighters showing off their best in airshows do a lot more. Something as mundane as the diversion of palm oil imports to Indonesia did the trick with Malaysia.

If budget and resources were not a factor then yes we can have a bunch of nuclear subs showing these irritants their place.

Fact is that the best bang for the buck is not even in military, it is in internal security - which after 5/8/2019 we have shown the will and resolve to do. Policing and politics matter. A few layers above that is border security. Soft power projection, aggressive diplomacy and trade will do a lot more to box in the Pakis at the same cost of building and operating a fleet of nuke subs.

Please understand that I do see a use and need for nuclear submarines - but not in the narrow view of fighting Paki terrorism, especially given the changed economic situation we will face in the next few years.

If we had say 10B$ to spend, I would say we should open an export oriented strategic manufacturing park in a coastal area, operate it Chinese style (production targets, quotas, incentives and all that) and give the Chinese a run for their money.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rishirishi » 19 Apr 2020 06:55

Aditya_V wrote:Pakis send irregulars because they feel they are immune to retaliation, If we are dedicated to alter the militarily economic balance, they and their masters will be forced to behave. Yes we are nowhere near that military strength which we require, but we must work towards over the next 20 years. But we Indians must face the fact, they cannot let us be at peace.

Nuke subs plays a role, it deters others from helping Pakis, a Turkey or Malaysia will also factor these things in their calculations. We need to first have the ability and then show we are willing to act.

The more powerful India is, the lesser other players will be willing to help the Pakis.


Pakistan is not afraid of retaliation. What harm does retaliation do them ? They only fear invasion and dismantling of TSP. But they know very well that India would not dare such a move. I dont think sanctions will stop TSP. Look at North Korea.

But what is so wrong with the status quo? A strong China, makes India a valuable partner for both unkil, EU and Russia. If China disintegrated, Unkil would target India. Unkil's military needs an adversary. Also they do not want any country to threaten their power.

Is really TSP such a pain ? Yes they do train some Jehadis, but it also gives India an excuse to hold on to Kashmir. The K problem would not go away even if TSP stopped its support. Yes it is painful with the losses, but do not forget that 1600 Indian soldiers die in accidents every year. Indian defense spending is not stopping economic growth. A jehadi TSP helps India in the international arena.

End of the day.
Thanks to China, Unkil will not stop Indian growth. Thanks to TSP, India can work its way in Kashmir. The great looser here, is TSP, because Jehadis, Afganistan and their India centric strategy is coming at a huge cost, and they unlikely to get anything in return.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Apr 2020 07:24

Prithwiraj wrote:With massive bail out coming due to corona virus a lot of big budget acquisitions will definitely get stalled like nuclear sub as well as additional Rafael as well as even the manned space mission. No country has the appetite for any war any more for next 20 years including US.

Thats a very Dharmic and sensible viewpoint. Unfortunately the world is neither. You'd think that WWI, Spanish Flu and the Great Depression might have satisfied the appetite for war - but unfortunately we know how that went. Even worse, there is good reason to believe that war is a great tool of economic recovery.

I'd be sharpening ze sword and dusting off the shield at this time.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby khan » 19 Apr 2020 12:57

Rishirishi wrote:Pakistan is not afraid of retaliation. What harm does retaliation do them ? They only fear invasion and dismantling of TSP. But they know very well that India would not dare such a move. I dont think sanctions will stop TSP. Look at North Korea.

But what is so wrong with the status quo? A strong China, makes India a valuable partner for both unkil, EU and Russia. If China disintegrated, Unkil would target India. Unkil's military needs an adversary. Also they do not want any country to threaten their power.

Is really TSP such a pain ? Yes they do train some Jehadis, but it also gives India an excuse to hold on to Kashmir. The K problem would not go away even if TSP stopped its support. Yes it is painful with the losses, but do not forget that 1600 Indian soldiers die in accidents every year. Indian defense spending is not stopping economic growth. A jehadi TSP helps India in the international arena.

End of the day.
Thanks to China, Unkil will not stop Indian growth. Thanks to TSP, India can work its way in Kashmir. The great looser here, is TSP, because Jehadis, Afganistan and their India centric strategy is coming at a huge cost, and they unlikely to get anything in return.

Well, you are missing the woods for the trees. The problem with the status quo for India is that a large amount of resources are being spent in COIN, when it could be spent on things like Tejas, Rafale, Nuclear Submarines & so on - things that will increase Indian power vis-à-vis China.

This of course is why China encourages Pakistan to keep the Kashmir issue alive. If Modi manages to fix Pakistan & Kashmir, it will take India to next level & greatly improve India’s security situation.

And K problem will go away without Pakistan, 2-3 years of no insurgency & things will get back to normal.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Apr 2020 16:22

Besides War is not something we can wake up one day and do, given the type of nation we are , we need to learn a lot of tactics, use of weapons, tactics, PAKi responses, Paki movements in crises - all these develop institutional memory, production set up etc. These retaliations have an impact they start fraying Pakis and salami slicing, it may not not bear results immediately but weaken Pakis , drop morale etc. Long term it will be fruitfull. Without retaliation Pakis will come up with newer plans and finally we will be fighting them in Delhi and Mumbai like 2006-19 period.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 19 Apr 2020 17:54

Rishirishi wrote:Is really TSP such a pain ?

Pain? No. Cancer? Yes. And a cancer that has to be eliminated.

And the cancer I am referring to is the mindset of the ruling elite (i.e. decision makers) in Pakistan. I am referring to the mindset that Kashmir must never be an integral part of India. The mindset that India must never prosper. The mindset that India is a failed state.

That mindset needs to be destroyed.

Rishirishi wrote:Yes they do train some Jehadis, but it also gives India an excuse to hold on to Kashmir.

Some Jehadis? Their only export is terrorism. What of value has Pakistan exported to the world?

Holding on to Kashmir? Jammu & Kashmir is part of the constitution of the country. Be real please.

And no self respecting country negotiates with her constitution.

Rishirishi wrote:The K problem would not go away even if TSP stopped its support.

What Kashmir problem exists outside of TSP? Please enlighten us.

Rishirishi wrote:Yes it is painful with the losses, but do not forget that 1600 Indian soldiers die in accidents every year.

Only someone who has never experienced this personally, which you obviously have not, will say something this asinine.

Accidental Death, being Killed in Action or dying from a terminal illness. The pain is all the same for the families.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby RKumar » 19 Apr 2020 17:57

Sirji thread derailed... Nuclear Submarines thread. please don’t link this topic to NaPak, it’s a game of big nations.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 19 Apr 2020 17:59

I know Sir, but I read his post and had to reply. No more from me on this. Sorry.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Apr 2020 06:09

Rakesh wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Is really TSP such a pain ?

Pain? No. Cancer? Yes. And a cancer that has to be eliminated.


Are you hinting at radiation therapy saar? Or chemo? So far hopefully surgery will cure the chronically I'll mareez.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Apr 2020 22:20

I am wondering if the deliveries of arihant class subs would get affected by covid..i would expect it to be the case....everything gets pushed back apart from turds across our borders that are alive ...the subs would help deliver the punch..and keep others at bay when the time comes..i think we will have to endure pakistan for few years longer...as for the solution.
In this case, for a majority of world, new parts that woudl be formed will be more valuable than sum of parts...what i mean to say..we need to let those who are doing organ harvesting

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 20 Apr 2020 23:27

Yes,there will definitely be delays- in every country in defence deliveries.We're already seeing that with the Rafales.
Warships and subs will require heavy laborious decontamination
and even if naval bases are in lockdown, contractors from civvy st. working on defence projects may bring the bug unbeknowing into a sanitised zone.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 23 Apr 2020 09:12

True,for smaller spaces,but larger vessels,esp. carriers. Miles of internal spaces,passageways,etc. Subs too,some are between 12 to 25,000t,larger than most capital ships today!

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 23 Apr 2020 09:15

Both the Teddy R supercarrier and CDG of 45K t,had around 700 cases each.It indicates that their designed bio-decontamination SOPs failed.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Pratyush » 23 Apr 2020 10:46

Philip wrote:Both the Teddy R supercarrier and CDG of 45K t,had around 700 cases each.It indicates that their designed bio-decontamination SOPs failed.


That's not a correct interpretation of the situation. As the bio decontamination will work only in cases where the risk is comming from an NBC attack.

In this case the risk came from the close proximity of crew members who unknowingly carried the virus.

If a particular individual was known to be infected before embarking on a ship. Then it is a failure of command. But the question is how do the command finds out.

That's why hindsight is always 20-20.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby brar_w » 23 Apr 2020 11:01

Philip wrote:Both the Teddy R supercarrier and CDG of 45K t,had around 700 cases each.It indicates that their designed bio-decontamination SOPs failed.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4752&p=2429071#p2429071

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Barath » 23 Apr 2020 22:08

somdev wrote:Decontamination of empty submarines might not be very time consuming.


For a nuclear sub, you might need a qualified skeleton crew on board even after the nuke plant has been shut down

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 03 May 2020 14:01

1600 with CV on the Teddy R now.


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