Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Philip
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 22 Dec 2020 10:33

My thoughts on the SSN programme.Only 6000t,therefore it will be difficult to accomodate VLS silos,unless the size is limited to BMos variants.Whether SMART can find favour too is a moot Q. The sub should carry a min. of 30 weapons. The Arihant is a good design to start from.Proven,plus much commonality with its mechanicals,etc.,would greatly enhance operational availability of our N-subs across the fleet. Eliminating the 4 BM silos and associated eqpt. for the same, would bring down the size.The same reactor would give a greater speed,etc. required of an attack boat. One must also imagine that just like the Arihant prog.,there will be considerable Ru assistance which would be reflected in a more streamlined sail. Whether we have forseen the arrival of sub-launched drones is another unknown aspect which would require VLS silos.
A modified smaller upgraded version of the Arihant would be eminently doable and cost less too.A completely new sub would be a more challenging and dxpensive task.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby sum » 22 Dec 2020 10:37

Was this ever posted here?
lots and lots of details

Time to Get Real

The Indian Navy should be more realistic about its plan to build nuclear attack submarines
Capt. Jawahar Bhagwat PhD (retd)

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 22 Dec 2020 11:02

Is he Adm Bhagwat's son or relative? The points made are depressing about the state of affairs with our UW fleet,esp. since the SSBNs are the most viital of all weapon systems for the nation's defence. There can be no corner-cutting on sub safety whatsoever. Secondly,the HR shortfall must be redressed with attractive extra emoluments for submariners essential. I read a report sometime ago,that in OZ,a sub's cook was being offered the same pay as an admiral! It was an Oz report,about the alarming shortfall in sub crews and that they could barely operate just one Collins class SSK and the dire shortage og sub cooks.

Howere,it's ratifying to note the Capt. Bhagwat has also said,as I've mentioned above, that for our SSN programme we must leverage the Arihant experience and design. Let's hope the CNS,CDS and MOD get their priorities right and give top priority and max. concentrated effort into making our sub fleet and its crews of rhe highest standards worldwide.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby sum » 22 Dec 2020 11:39

I believe his son.

As per the T-blog ( not to be named here) :
He was the CO of INS Chakra when that SSGN had sustained the damage to its sonar dome while at sea & when the MoD mandated that accountability ought to be fixed as the damage sustained had cost the IN US$20 million to repair, he decided to put in his papers instead of subjecting himself to a Board of Inquiry.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Pratyush » 22 Dec 2020 16:41

sum wrote:I believe his son.

As per the T-blog ( not to be named here) :
He was the CO of INS Chakra when that SSGN had sustained the damage to its sonar dome while at sea & when the MoD mandated that accountability ought to be fixed as the damage sustained had cost the IN US$20 million to repair, he decided to put in his papers instead of subjecting himself to a Board of Inquiry.


If he is the son of the former admiral. He is too old to be a commander of the Chakra when the accident happened.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Barath » 22 Dec 2020 21:49

The article footer clearly states that he commanded the Chakra

The first commander of the Chakra-2 had 25 years of experience before he took over its command, so I think it's plausible that he is Admitted Bhagat's son; the Admiral would have been 78 at the time of the accident

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ramana » 23 Dec 2020 06:26

Its quite bilous article with lots of bokwas examples.

He is definitely related to Admiral Bhagwat.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby chetak » 23 Dec 2020 10:46

sum wrote:Was this ever posted here?
lots and lots of details

Time to Get Real

The Indian Navy should be more realistic about its plan to build nuclear attack submarines
Capt. Jawahar Bhagwat PhD (retd)


the editor of the mag is PRAVIN SAWHNEY.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 23 Dec 2020 12:57

There were two Chakras,1 and 2.Adm. Joshi resigned in protest a
fter a series of unfortunate accidents involving the sub fleet when St.Anthony was Deaf Min.,sorry.....Def. Min.,deaf to the urgent pleas of the services,navy in particular about the state of old subs,no new batteries,etc. He fell on his sword when it should've
been AKA instead, who apart from warming his ministerial seat did bugger all. The lack of torpedoes for Scorpene subs,etc.,is a damning indictment of the MOD which has after the AW scandal sanctioned products from all group cos..The loser,the IN. The current DM must cut the " gordian knot" that bedevils so many urgent/ critical acquisitions of weapon systems and key components. The engine room flooding of the Arihant a few years ago when in the docks was a safety failure, that underscores what
is written in the article. Adm.Vishnu Bhagwat has a v.sensible and ambitious plan for the growth of the IN's subfleet with 2 lines of conv./ AIP sub construction,western and Ru. Had he not been sacked by Uncle George over the paltry issue of a promotion of an officer he felt did not make the grade,we would not be in thf sub fleet crisis that we are now,where Kilos that should've been pensioned off or sent into the reserves or for training or gifted to "friendlies" like Burma,are undergoing their second refit without even AIP.

On the topic of political interference and promotions, a former chief,now deceased,told me how uppitty RK Dhawan repeatedly tried to armtwist him into promoting an officer to flag rank.He rebuffed Dhawan only to be hauled up before the then PM Mrs.G.
.. To her credit Mrs.G .after hearing the chief's objections to promoting the officer in Q, stood by her chief's decision. After he retired though,his successor meekly caved into Dhawan's diktat.
The IN cannot afford any shortcuts when it comes to our subfleet,esp. the SSBN strategic deterrent.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vidur » 23 Dec 2020 14:10

Ronnie Peirrera I think you are referring to. On the issue of bias against Submarine Arm officers, it is very true and quite dangerous but it is a matter for the service. There is nothing stopping the Navy from addressing it. They should not expect the Ministry to intervene because the ministry has a different focus. For them, Inter arm rivalry is a way of reducing the discretionary power of the services. For example, after the AVC report there was a lot of jostling for Col &Brig vacancies. Several proposals were made, rejected, remade. In one proposal the vacancies for Engrs and Mechanised Infantry was reduced by 70% and these were allocated to Infantry and Artillery. Armd Corps protested and the case was brought up to the ministry. It was then decided that all promotions of Birg and above would be handled by the ministry. This had negative consequences because political/bureaucratic fixing of promotions. Favourites of bureaucrats were given choice postings and helped in promotions. As you might know when the services promotion board looks at candidates fro promotion the names are anonymised and only service profile + courses + employability is looked at. However when this is looked at the ministry...

I have often wondered why it is so easy to manipulate the services. The bureaucracy always sticks together even across cadres and services and thats what gives it its ability to look after its members and retain and grow its power.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby nachiket » 24 Dec 2020 02:40

Pratyush wrote:
sum wrote:I believe his son.

As per the T-blog ( not to be named here) :
He was the CO of INS Chakra when that SSGN had sustained the damage to its sonar dome while at sea & when the MoD mandated that accountability ought to be fixed as the damage sustained had cost the IN US$20 million to repair, he decided to put in his papers instead of subjecting himself to a Board of Inquiry.


If he is the son of the former admiral. He is too old to be a commander of the Chakra when the accident happened.

This is a ToI article from 2001: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Fis ... 753071.cms

Today, Admiral Bhagwat sits in his one-bedroom South Mumbai apartment, amidst pictures of his family son Jawahar who''s an officer in the submarine arm of the navy and daughter Roshni, a paediatrician in Mumbai''s Tata Memorial Hospital.


Definitely his son.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby nachiket » 24 Dec 2020 02:48

ramana wrote:Its quite bilous article with lots of bokwas examples.

He is definitely related to Admiral Bhagwat.

With respect, which examples did you think were bakwas? He seems to be pointing out very specific issues and most of his complaints (except some) are against the decisions made by the Navy leadership itself rather than the MoD or successive governments. I don't think it would be wise to dismiss what he is saying out of hand.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby hnair » 24 Dec 2020 03:50

Philip wrote:Adm.Vishnu Bhagwat has a v.sensible and ambitious plan for the growth of the IN's subfleet with 2 lines of conv./ AIP sub construction,western and Ru. Had he not been sacked by Uncle George over the paltry issue of a promotion of an officer he felt did not make the grade,we would not be in thf sub fleet crisis that we are now,.


Philip, supporting Admiral Bhagwat and spinning his serial issues with gross insubordination is one thing, but claiming he would have solved India’s submarine shortage is unadulterated BS. Unless Admiral Bhagwat has a magic wand to make gold bullion bars out of thin air, where is the money for CAPEX in a country which prioritize HDI related programs over military ones? Stop slipping in such gems.

No uniformed person can solve India’s military CAPEX crimp unless the cabinet decides to prioritize that over other spending demands. No one wo/man is panacea for India’s procurement issues

Admiral Joshi needs a big salute for his professionalism in resigning In a dignified manner and keeping a stoic image of a leader beyond politics. This despite him having our sleeping beauty St Anthony as his boss and even greater politico-bureaucratic interference that actually cost lives of unsuspecting servicemen in that accident. Admiral Bhagat on the other hand, IIRC, willingly or unwillingly seem to have cooperated in a tarnishing media campaign against George-kaka and NDA govt, with help of Congress and sleazy media like Tehelka.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby hnair » 24 Dec 2020 04:25

ramana is right - this article can only be described as a long diatribe against personalities, not an analysis of a veteran who obviously knows far better than any of us. As per author, there are no redeeming Indian innovations in pushing out a nuclear hull worth mentioning, in contrast to his hagiographic section about Admiral Rickover. Admiral Rickover has his place in the pantheon of American greats, but an Admiral Ganesh, Admiral Kannan or Admiral Bhasin needs to be celebrated by India and Indians. Author does not want to do that and considers only an American as worthy.

If anything he is inconsistent too! Let me pick just two peripheral ones.

Eg: he claims lots of Arihant pics are floating around in open source due to lack of secrecy. This is a grave insult to us jingos who scour every inch of net daily!

There are probably sum total of three photos we know of
- a shiny launch time photo with only white sonar dome prominent
- a transit through Vizag narrows, with a paler grey hull and black coning tower. Again no details.
- a distant profile shot from a vizag beach taken at dawn or dusk. Very romantic but no details

The rest are all Google earth imagery, which hardly shows anything other than two hulls basking in sun and the closed hatches.

His speculation about this lack of alleged confidentiality is because Arihant is not having a nav radar for night transit, which also makes no sense. A nation that can miniaturize a naval reactor and do mid-course intercept of an ICBM class target doesn’t have the wherewithal for a compact nav radar for collision avoidance that you can order over internet?

And wouldn’t all sub (not just nuke boats) transiting an estuary or a busy shipping canal like Vizag’s, be it at Groton, Bremerton, Kiel, St Petersburg etc have an oceangoing tug leading the way? A collision is too costly in such circumstances and no professional navy will sent a surfaced sub alone, where coastal shipping is dense.

The fact is the confidentiality is too much around INS Arihant. Twelve long years after launch, an average Indian citizen has zero idea about what the result of his immensely costly payout in the form of this vessel looks like. I don’t know why the author still wants it to be kept under blanket? Shouldn’t it steam proudly as the tip of the Indian spear, at all fleet reviews like what every other country does, showing off its tubes? Isn’t that what deterrent is about - fear of what the tube contents can do?

Second one: While he claims a lack of confidentiality, but then casually informs us that two heads of ATV program were not there for the first dive unlike Adm Rickover. What purpose does that CONFIDENTIAL information serve, other than showing Indian program managers as inferior to Rickover? He himself is not adhering to his own demand for confidentiality right there .

Anyways, Isn’t it a better approach to compare Adm Rickover’s near infinite budget, nuclear knowledge base from multiple sources (including nazi Germany) and political backing to what the Indian program managers have (shoe string budget, a long sanctioned BARC and zero sub building skills) in hand?

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Prasad » 24 Dec 2020 11:18

Add that shot from the 3/4 rear that was behind NaMo during one of his speeches. So 4 in total?

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby RKumar » 24 Dec 2020 15:57

we have great leaders but the problem is some of our leaders have big personal egos. Sometimes, it is too hard for them to accept that other leaders are taller or same size like theirs.

We hope as a nation, we will learn - one example is Modi ji, is a hope of ray, USA and western countries targeted him personally as well as BJP but he did what is in the best interest of the nation as a leader.

I hope next generation leaders in all walks of life learn from it.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 30 Dec 2020 08:17

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... 69473?s=20 ---> INS Arihant missile silo. Pic credit @CovertShores.

Image

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 30 Dec 2020 08:18


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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 30 Dec 2020 13:21

HN, if Adm.Bhagwat's plan for the IN's sub fleet had been carried out by the IN after his sacking by his successors,and the sacking had nothing to do with the sub plans,but an officer's promotion, our sub fleet surely would not be in the critical state that it is with only 2 new Scorpenes commissioned,5 years late apart from second-refitted 2-3+ decade old Kilos and U-boats. The Arihant SSBNs are part of the dedicated strategic deterrent, not combative subs of the IN's inventory. In comparison with the surface combatants and Fleet Air Arm, the sub fleet is the " Cinderella" of the " Cinderella service"!

One is happy though that the realisation of the state of affairs of the sub fleet has been understood by the CDS who has been open with his statements. That the 6 SSNs are on track is v.good news,but none will arrive this decade.We need to find a fast fix for the conv. sub inventory for speedy acquisition for this decade. Ambitious P-75I subs,whose specs are reportedly not available in full by any of the contenders demands a modified type,which will take extra time and money to achieve.These capabilities are better suited to N-subs,being larger,faster, carry more weaponry,have unlimited range and endurance,twice the patrol time of an AIP boat . The conv.AIP boats sought should have as primary priority ASW, land attack ,anti-ship variants also available already with Klub/ Kalibir missiles aboard our Kilos. The 3+3 extra Kilos on offer from Ru should be taken up so that we have at least 10 Kilos operational for the new decade, when from 2030 a new type can replace them. For the moment,apart from the extra Kilos, a western SSK must be acquired to augment replace the U-209s fast-tracked on a G-2-G basis.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vips » 30 Dec 2020 18:58

No need to buy any Kilos from Russia as they are asking $1.8 Billion for 6 of them. They are essentially asking $300 Million for modernizing and supplying 30 + year old rust buckets. Did i forget to mention that out of those 6, 3 are our own Kilo's!!!

Now if they want to supply totally new Kilos with VLS capability for $300-$400 Million each then maybe it is worth a thought. Not otherwise.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Barath » 30 Dec 2020 20:29

Vips wrote:....
Now if they want to supply totally new Kilos with VLS capability for $300-$400 Million each then maybe it is worth a thought. Not otherwise.


This is out of sync with market prices such that you might as well reject this suggestion. In 2009, Vietnam purchased 6 Project 636MV Kilos for $2.1 billion (+ $1.1 billion in associated equipment, armament and services such as training simulator facility ). Those Kilos lacked VLS; though they could fire Kalibr missiles through the torpedo tubes. So that would make it $350M-$533M before factoring in ~12+ years of inflation and modifications for VLS or other prospective Indian specific requirements.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 01 Jan 2021 02:56

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1343498269838569473?s=20 ---> INS Arihant missile silo. Pic credit @CovertShores.


November 12, 2020 picture shows two of the fish with one's hatches open - I think. Don't have a hosting site for the picture.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby John » 01 Jan 2021 03:36

Vips wrote:No need to buy any Kilos from Russia as they are asking $1.8 Billion for 6 of them. They are essentially asking $300 Million for modernizing and supplying 30 + year old rust buckets. Did i forget to mention that out of those 6, 3 are our own Kilo's!!!

Now if they want to supply totally new Kilos with VLS capability for $300-$400 Million each then maybe it is worth a thought. Not otherwise.

Kilos cannot be modified to carry VLS even amur with VLS was just simple poc with no merit behind it (essentially hoping some sucker buys the design and funds it). Even Russians stopped advertising it. It is foolish to think an SSK can carry 8 brahmos vls given the weight and this have enormous ramifications on its range and speed.

Even with tube launched cruise missiles, As I stated earlier having diesel submarines equipped with non strategic land attack missiles is pure insanity given their limited payload, their poor cruising speed and goes against the operating concept of an SSK.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2021 07:32

Drag & Drop picture into new window for full size.

Image

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Jan 2021 12:15

John wrote:Even with tube launched cruise missiles, As I stated earlier having diesel submarines equipped with non strategic land attack missiles is pure insanity given their limited payload, their poor cruising speed and goes against the operating concept of an SSK.


Not talking about Kilos/Amurs but SSKs in general. A couple of observations:

1) LACMs can be purely conventional and not strategic
2) Given AIPs & upcoming Lithium battery innovations, the amount of time an SSK can stay underwater is not pushing 3 weeks and beyond

The above data points suggest that the role of the SSK & its doctrines are due for a revision. An SSK loaded with LACMs can wreak havoc in a 3 week war without having to surface even once.

Apologies for the OT - talking about SSKs, not SSNs here

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2021 06:50

I cannot wait for this set of the Arihant Class from Kuntal Biswas. It will be gorgeous!

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 71234?s=20 ---> Coming up next...

Image

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 30 Jan 2021 12:49

Rakesh wrote:I cannot wait for this set of the Arihant Class from Kuntal Biswas. It will be gorgeous!

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 71234?s=20 ---> Coming up next...


looks just like a humpback whale silhoutte !

OT but my firm opinion one should never share an entire desktop screenshot !!

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 03 Feb 2021 06:46

It has arrived! Kuntal Biswas has put his magic on the Arihant Class submarines. See below....

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 86176?s=20 --->

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 08 Feb 2021 04:17

The S5 Ballistic Missile Nuclear Sub
https://adreesh-ghoshal.medium.com/the- ... d83731965a

Each one will weigh about 13,500 tonnes
The S5 SSBNs will carry 12–16 K-6 MIRV submarine-launched ballistic missiles with a range of 8000 km and a 2–3 tonnes of explosive payload
The MIRV missiles will have 3–6 warheads that can be navigated independently
The 83-mega watt pressurized water nuclear reactor used in the Arihant will be upgraded, or a twin-reactor setup will be used to provide the planned power output of 190 mW
The submarine will most likely be propelled by a ducted pump jet propulsor which emits less noise and is thus more difficult to detect via sonar
A new material for the hull is being developed by the Mishra Dhatu Nigam, and this will be able to withstand the tremendous amounts of pressure and with anti-sonar properties key to the S5’s performance

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby narmad » 24 Mar 2021 20:08

For Navy, 6 nuclear-powered submarines take priority over 3rd aircraft carrier

According to South Block officials, the Indian Navy told the country’s national security planners at the Combined Commanders Conference this month that the plan to build the nuclear-powered attack submarines or SSNs should take priority over the project to build a third aircraft carrier (also called indigenous aircraft carrier 2).

It is understood that the Navy will seek “acceptance of necessity” or AON approval from the government on the submarine project soon as China has developed the capacity to produce 12,000-tonne Renhai class destroyers in just five years.:?:

It is in this context that the Navy is also seriously thinking of reviving its heavy-destroyer project to counter the 12,000-tonne cruisers being built by China. The first of India’s 7,500 tonne INS Visakhapatnam class of guided-missile destroyers is expected to be commissioned within a year.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 24 Mar 2021 21:07

narmad wrote:[url=https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/for-navy-6-nuclear-powered-submarines-take-priority-over-3rd-aircraft-carrier-101616564522467.html]

It is in this context that the Navy is also seriously thinking of reviving its heavy-destroyer project to counter the 12,000-tonne cruisers being built by China. The first of India’s 7,500 tonne INS Visakhapatnam class of guided-missile destroyers is expected to be commissioned within a year.

There is a lot of speculation on the presumed 10k tonne "destroyer" of IN., right from rail guns ,Marine gas turbine engine,new gen CIWS,and hypersonic weapons


In short this is not your average destroyer, more in the class of cruisers

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 24 Mar 2021 21:10

The report above mentions 6 SSNs in place of a "heavy" aircraft carrier., wonder if that was somebodys imagination. A heavy AC would be in the leagues of 100k tons

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2021 21:21


Assuming this article is true, it would confirm what many on this forum have been saying - there is no money to fund everything at the same time, even when all projects are paid over the course of construction or acquisition.

There is six Project 75I boats, six Project 75A (SSN) program, the myriad of other ship building programs (four Visakhapatnam Class DDG, seven Nilgiri Class FFG, four Talwar Class FFG, etc). Then there are minesweepers, replenishment vessels, corvettes, MRSVs, etc...the list is endless. Then there are drones, MH-60R ASW helos, additional P-8Is, the 111 NUH and the 123 NMRH helo deals.

And in the middle of all this, the Navy wants annual funding for a 15 year build time, 65K ton, nuclear powered, EMALS equipped, aircraft carrier with phoren carrier borne fighters?

And this is just one service - the Navy. What happens to the requirements of the Army and the Air Force?

Navy to press for 3rd aircraft carrier, Admiral Karambir Singh says it's necessary for an 'aspirational nation'
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/n ... 2020-12-03
03 Dec 2020

The navy runs into a budget boulder
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-f ... 2020-12-11
21 Dec 2020

Read both articles in its entirety and one will see what happened when the meagre defence budget hit the Indian Navy's acquisition plans from narmad's post. And the Navy obviously sees the value of six SSNs over a third aircraft carrier. So much for the CATOBAR carrier argument. Don't get me wrong...an awesome capability to have, as evidenced by the USN, but you gotta have the money.

So much for the statement, "....money should be there."

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2021 21:36


From the article above....

According to South Block officials, the Indian Navy told the country’s national security planners at the Combined Commanders Conference this month that the plan to build the nuclear-powered attack submarines or SSNs should take priority over the project to build a third aircraft carrier (also called indigenous aircraft carrier)

The nuclear-powered submarines can patrol the entire Indo-Pacific without even surfacing once and remain detected on high seas and equatorial waters.

Indian national security planners believe that the next threat from China will come on Indo-Pacific, particularly in the Indian Ocean with the US Navy continuously deployed in the South China Sea and ensuring that the PLAN ballistic missile submarines do not cross the first island chain. This means that PLAN will have to take a circuitous route to deploy its nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean as it is mandatory for sub-surface vessels to surface when they cross Malacca Straits, Sunda or Lombok straits.

While India has a number of options to jointly design and develop the submarines with countries such as Russia, France and the US under the Atma Nirbhar Bharat rubric, India’s preferred partner appears to be Paris as it is already designed Kalvari class of diesel attack submarines for Indian Navy and is currently jointly developing a nuclear attack submarine (named Alvaro Alberto) for Brazil under a strategic partnership.

Apart from being India’s closest allies in defence technology, joint development of submarines with France is free from any regulatory regimes such as the International Traffic in Arms Regulation (ITAR) with the US or any future sanctions in case of Russia. India already operates one Akula class SSN from Russia on lease with an agreement to get another one when the lease on the first expires.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2021 21:39

Any delay in aircraft carrier will have a corresponding delay in the acquisition of phoren carrier borne fighters. Good luck with the Navy getting sanction from the MoD for these aircraft, when there is delay over the aircraft carrier itself.

Bye bye Rafale M and F-18SH Block III. I am happy, because this opens the financial door for secured funding for TEDBF development.

Local maal any day over phoren maal. @ m_saini saar, if you are reading this...wink, wink :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2021 21:52

kit wrote:The report above mentions 6 SSNs in place of a "heavy" aircraft carrier., wonder if that was somebodys imagination. A heavy AC would be in the leagues of 100k tons

The heavy aircraft carrier being referred to here is the 65K ton IAC-2.

Compared to the Vikramaditya and Vikrant, IAC-2 is heavy onlee :)

IAC-2 is at minimum 20K tons heavier than the other two. That is a significant capability jump.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby m_saini » 24 Mar 2021 21:54

Rakesh wrote:Any delay in aircraft carrier will have a corresponding delay in the acquisition of phoren carrier borne fighters. Good luck with the Navy getting sanction from the MoD for these aircraft, when there is delay over the aircraft carrier itself.

Bye bye Rafale M and F-18SH Block III. I am happy, because this opens the financial door for secured funding for TEDBF development.

Local maal any day over phoren maal. @ m_saini saar, if you are reading this...wink, wink :mrgreen:


always here Rakesh sir :mrgreen: Glad that we're not chasing the uber nuclear powered EMALS carrier.

Tejas is a beaut, and by the looks of things TEDBF would easily surpass it. Local maal any day over phoren maal.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby rajsunder » 25 Mar 2021 00:56

kit wrote:The report above mentions 6 SSNs in place of a "heavy" aircraft carrier., wonder if that was somebodys imagination. A heavy AC would be in the leagues of 100k tons

But these SSN's were supposed to come from a special budget separate from Defense budget. Heavy Aircraft Carrier is to come from the regular navy budget.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 25 Mar 2021 01:02

rajsunder wrote:
kit wrote:The report above mentions 6 SSNs in place of a "heavy" aircraft carrier., wonder if that was somebodys imagination. A heavy AC would be in the leagues of 100k tons

But these SSN's were supposed to come from a special budget separate from Defense budget. Heavy Aircraft Carrier is to come from the regular navy budget.


You hit the nail on the head

Yes indeed., the SSBNs, SSNs, the tracking ships et all comes under the PMO special budget that is kept outside the regular defence budget allocations

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby rajsunder » 25 Mar 2021 01:30

kit wrote:
rajsunder wrote:But these SSN's were supposed to come from a special budget separate from Defense budget. Heavy Aircraft Carrier is to come from the regular navy budget.


You hit the nail on the head

Yes indeed., the SSBNs, SSNs, the tracking ships et all comes under the PMO special budget that is kept outside the regular defense budget allocations

So that means we do not have a this OR that situation. we can have both the IAC-2 and 6-SSN. May be its more of a inter service rivalry that is at play here.


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