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Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Manish_Sharma » 22 Sep 2017 18:50

Philip I have question.

After Admiral Joshi's resignation, Adm. Sinha was next in line but he was superseded and Robin dhowan was promoted instead. Was there some kind of play by antony and antonia or just a normal routine?
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 23 Sep 2017 09:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 23 Sep 2017 05:49

Admiral Sinha was indeed the next senior most officer, but I read that he was made the scapegoat on the pretext that the accidents happpened under the Western Naval Command. I heard he argued against that narrative, but the die was cast. He then resigned his commission as Admiral Dhowan was junior to him. I read he had a heart attack after he retired.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 25 Sep 2017 18:48

The GOI of the day wanted scapegoats to cover up AKA's dereliction of duty in no timely purchase of sub batteries,spares,etc.,etc..Adm.Joshi was made to walk the plank and the WNC C-in-C as Adm.Rakesh has said,made another scapegoat.Nothing to soil the spotless dhoti of " The Saint"! These days when Rly. Ministers resign over train accidents,most unfortunate as for decades under [deleted]ministers from the Bihar,UP and Bengal lobby,the railways were never modernised and track safety took a beating,all for keeping rail fares the same. It should've been AKA who should've resigned instead! That shameful object stuck to his chair like glue to turn a Nelsonian eye to the defence and security affairs of the country except when prodded in his backside by her majesty,Queen Sonia.Such is fate. I know of another case,where a superb highly respected naval officer,decorated in both '65 and '71,was never given sr. promotion as he said "no" to his superior on an issue of principle. Had he got his extra star,he would've ended up as chief given his seniority and age.
Last edited by ramana on 25 Sep 2017 23:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted. ramana

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 06:01

India May Launch Second Nuclear Submarine by Early 2018 - Atomic Energy Dep't
https://sputniknews.com/military/201711 ... epartment/

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2017 13:49

I wonder whether the delay has anything to do with the incident involving the Chakra.Crew manning ,etc.That returning sub would've had aboard some crew being trained for the ATV-2.


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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ramana » 11 Nov 2017 04:54




Russians have said this is a French psy-ops report....

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ajay_hk » 11 Nov 2017 06:51

'No US officer given access to N-sub on lease from Russia'
TNN | Nov 11, 2017, 04:55 IST
NEW DELHI: The country's defence establishment has rejected Russian media reports that India allowed US military officials on board nuclear-powered submarine INS Chakra, which has been leased from Russia for 10 years under a $900 million deal.

Though there was no official statement, sources said there was "no question" of letting US officials or "anyone else" near INS Chakra, the Akula-II class submarine inducted by the Indian Navy in April 2012, in violation of the terms of agreement inked with Russia. "This is a disinformation campaign being carried out by some vested interests," said a source.


...

Russian news portal Kommersant on Thursday claimed the Indian Navy had permitted a US technical crew to inspect INS Chakra, saying the "unprecedented scandal" threatened "to seriously complicate the negotiations on the lease of the second nuclear submarine". But on Friday, another Russian news portal, NEWS.ru, asserted that "French lobbyists" had "an ulterior role in spreading misinformation to further their own chances of selling a nuclear-powered attack submarine to India".

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2017 04:46

https://twitter.com/subnut/status/929282031632052224 --> French interested in SSNs for India when media reports 2nd Akula for IN.Perhaps this explains recent media "news" (today denied by another media source) that USN officers visited SSN Chakra.

https://twitter.com/subnut/status/929304325557383170 --> This same French Yard has also built SSBNs for FN & Scorpene conventional subs for Chilean & Malaysian Navies. So France cud also be showing its capabilities for proposed $10 bn IN Project 75(I) conventional subs.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2017 04:48

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/928938303285374976 --> Indian Navy Chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba briefed on Naval Group's Barracuda Class nuclear attack submarine at Cherbourg, France yesterday.

Image

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 12 Nov 2017 04:50

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/929287862138281984 ---> And here’s the Indian Navy Chief scoping out the Barracuda SSN build/maintenance architecture at Naval Group’s VR (Virtual Reality) centre at Cherbourg.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 18:03

Russia officially refutes information any US official entered Chakra

https://vpk-news.ru/news/39869

Publications that India allegedly let US specialists into the Russian-made submarine Chakra are "throw-in", said Dmitry Shugaev, head of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) of Russia, on the air of the Rossiya 24 television channel.

"This is a throw-in. We will by no means be succumbed to these provocations, " RIA Novosti quotes Shugaeva as saying .

According to him, since the lifting of sanctions from India, a serious struggle has developed for the military equipment market of this country.
"They try to smoke us there with all the truths and crooks, but India is a strategic partner for us, and the entire country and top leadership (India - ed.) Also consider us strategic partners," Shugaev added.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2017 18:08

India has closely followed the development of France’s new attack submarine for over a decade owing to its potential to transform the navy’s submarine arm.

Why Admiral Sunil Lanba’s visit to a French nuclear shipyard is significant


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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 29 Nov 2017 03:56

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/928938303285374976 --> Indian Navy Chief, Admiral Sunil Lanba briefed on Naval Group's Barracuda Class nuclear attack submarine at Cherbourg, France yesterday.

French Barracuda project’s utility to India
http://www.livemint.com/Opinion/rqltXdE ... India.html

On his recent visit to France, India’s chief of naval staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba, was given a detailed presentation by his French hosts on the Barracuda-class, its latest nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN), the first of which is expected to be commissioned next year into the French navy. This assumes importance for a number of reasons. India plans to make six SSNs apart from nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs), the first of which—INS Arihant—is operational and the next in class, INS Aridhaman, has been launched recently. India is also looking to make conventional diesel-electric submarines (SSKs) under project P75I after the current programme to make six French Scorpène submarines, being constructed at Mazagon Docks.

This is where the potential of exploring the Barracuda lies. The French are developing two versions of the Barracuda—nuclear-powered for its navy and diesel electric for Australia, after winning a $50 billion contract for 12 boats named Shortfin Barracuda. As India is looking to make both conventional and nuclear attack submarines, the design commonality offered by the Barracuda will help keep construction, operational, maintenance and training costs low.

The Barracuda is designed with pump-jet propulsion instead of the conventional propeller, which will make the submarine quieter than propeller-driven ones. The pump-jet-propelled submarines are also faster and easily manoeuvrable. The conventional version of the Barracuda will have a vertical launch system to launch cruise missiles, a requirement for India’s P75I.

What is, however, more interesting is that India has asked France if it will be willing to help with the nuclear reactor technology. The French appear to be inclined. There is no law prohibiting cooperation on naval nuclear reactors (NNRs) which allowed India to lease the Russian Akula class nuclear attack submarine which is currently in operation with the Indian Navy.

If India is indeed seriously looking at the French NNR, it will mark a move from the highly enriched uranium (HEU) core that powers the Arihant-class SSBN to the low-enriched uranium (LEU) core that powers the French nuclear submarines. India uses 40% HEU while France uses 5-7% LEU for its Rubis-class SSN, Triomphant-class SSBN and aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

The reactor on INS Arihant produces about 83MW of power to propel the over 6,000-tonne submarine. However, a more powerful reactor will be required for future SSBNs, which will be substantially larger than the Arihant. The French K-15 reactor produces 150MW that propels the 12,000-tonne Triomphant-class submarine with 16 vertical launch tubes to launch the M51 submarine-launched ballistic missiles, similar to what India plans in boats succeeding the Arihant. The reactor on the Barracuda will be based on K-15, with suitable power adjustments.

Incidentally, India is also considering the use of nuclear propulsion for its future aircraft carriers. However, it is unlikely that the next one to be constructed will have nuclear propulsion considering the lack of an adequately powered nuclear reactor that is sufficiently miniaturized. France uses two K-15 reactors on its aircraft carrier.

India’s consideration of a shift to LEU reactors may be influenced by disarmament negotiations. The Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty (FMCT) particularly aims to ban production of HEU, which is uranium with over 20% enrichment, to stop nuclear weapons proliferation. India is committed to negotiate the treaty which has been stalled for the moment by Pakistan’s veto. If the FMCT comes into effect, it will prohibit the production of HEU that is used in India’s NNR, affecting its strategic requirements.

While the treaty doesn’t appear to be coming into force anytime soon, India might be looking to make its nuclear submarines future-proof by adopting LEU reactors. The adoption of LEU will save India the cost of expanding its HEU production facilities and leave the current stockpile and production capacity for making nuclear weapons to ensure minimum credible deterrence till the FMCT comes into force. The US, which uses a HEU core, has been mulling a shift to LEU to further its non-proliferation goals although it has sufficient stockpile of HEU for its navy.

The use of LEU has its challenges, especially the larger size of the core. France has been successful in sufficiently miniaturizing the LEU core. While the 93% HEU cores of US and UK submarines don’t require refuelling, LEU cores need to be refuelled at least twice in their lifetime. France has developed a fuel mix that gives a reasonably long core life of 7-10 years before refuelling. In fact, INS Arihant will also need refuelling in a process that will require cutting open the submarine hull and welding it back after refuelling. The process will take two to three years, affecting the availability of a critical strategic asset. France, on the other hand, uses secure hatches above the reactor which allows refuelling to take place in a matter of weeks, leading to greater availability.

France is India’s strategic partner and is regarded as a reliable supplier of weapons. India can look to France to provide consultancy on both conventional and nuclear attack submarines derived from the Barracuda project and acquire design and technologies to make LEU cores for its nuclear submarines. A sufficiently well-powered LEU core can also propel India’s future aircraft carriers.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Will » 29 Nov 2017 22:45

Well.... looks like there is some truth that the French are after the SSN deal. If they are willing to provide the reactor tech might be worth considering. Wonder how good the barracuda is with respect to Russian subs though. I guess as far as nuke subs go, Russian tech is next to only the Americans. its going be a tough call. Well its a always good to have options. Whoever is chosen as a partner its the IN who will be at advantage. Having a second option will stop us from getting milked to the core.

I wonder if the French are offering both the shortfin as well as the barracuda for the conventional and nuclear requirements. Looking at the price that the shortfin has been sold to the Aussies , its not worth it for the conventional sub requirement.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vips » 30 Nov 2017 02:32

Unless the French come to an accommodation or understanding with Australia (They had promised not to give Barracuda technology to India if they got $50 Billion contract to build 12 Subs), India will not get any TOT even if we offer them top $$$. So it seems we are and will be stuck with the less efficient Russian technology for our future Naval Strategic assets.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 30 Nov 2017 04:48

This is a tough task.Decades of BARC efforts proved futile.Denied sub tech by the West for ddcades, esp. N-tech even now by the US for a carrier,we had to go to Ru who offered us an N-sub way back in the '80s.After the lease of Chakra-1 they've given us help with the SSBN subs perhaps not their latest and bestest reactors, but enough to do the biz. A whole class of Arihants is being built with a more powerful plant than that of the first boat.But the leased Akula is a v.capable late model boat only now being eclipsed by the v.expensive Yasen, which will be succeeded by a new smaller SSN which could serve as a model for our SSN progr. too which may be of similar size.

We just have to keep on with our R&D , spend money but demand accountability and time-bound results.Poor Adm. Bhagwat was shafted partly becos he did demand accountability as the IN was helping fund the ATV programme which was nowhere on the horizon. A flexible timeframe will ensure dependence upon firang entities.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 05:29

I can't understand why perfectly sensible Indians believe that nations can and will "transfer" the technology that they need to stay ahead of the game. I mean - its different from the Vedas that need to be shared freely. France will never "teach us" how to build LEU reactors. Technology is not books - it is people who have worked and ironed out problems. We can't discard all of them and slobber after France and their champagne and frogs legs. We have already screwed up our submarine building program once. Nuke subs are the only thing we have done pretty much on our own and there should be no loose talk of talking to France because some bhenchod nations want to impose 4 letter treaties on us.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby nachiket » 30 Nov 2017 06:01

What's this about the French and Barracudas? Doesn't the NPT (or some similar treaty) ban the sale of Nuclear subs except between the chosen few? That's why we could only lease the Akula instead of buying it outright.
Last edited by nachiket on 30 Nov 2017 06:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 30 Nov 2017 06:07

Nachi, as per the author in the above article...there is no law prohibiting cooperation on naval nuclear reactors (NNRs). So we will not be buying a Barracuda Class SSN outright. Even lease will be unlikely. But the six planned SSNs could have French influence, if the French come on board. This is all based on a single article. Needs more verfication.

I have zero knowledge of the advantages/disadvantages of highly enriched uranium (HEU) vs low-enriched uranium (LEU). If someone could provide a brief summary, I would be most grateful. But what impressed me about the Barracuda Class SSN - is if the author's claim is true - is that you can refuel the reactor through secure hatches and that process takes only a couple of weeks. Results in greater availability at sea versus cutting open the boat, refueling the reactor and then welding the boat back together. That will take considerably longer and as per the author, a few years.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Chinmay » 30 Nov 2017 07:37

Rakesh wrote:Nachi, as per the author in the above article...there is no law prohibiting cooperation on naval nuclear reactors (NNRs). So we will not be buying a Barracuda Class SSN outright. Even lease will be unlikely. But the six planned SSNs could have French influence, if the French come on board. This is all based on a single article. Needs more verfication.

I have zero knowledge of the advantages/disadvantages of highly enriched uranium (HEU) vs low-enriched uranium (LEU). If someone could provide a brief summary, I would be most grateful. But what impressed me about the Barracuda Class SSN - is if the author's claim is true - is that you can refuel the reactor through secure hatches and that process takes only a couple of weeks. Results in greater availability at sea versus cutting open the boat, refueling the reactor and then welding the boat back together. That will take considerably longer and as per the author, a few years.


Isn't the author a BRFite? Perhaps we can ask Yusuf directly

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ShauryaT » 30 Nov 2017 08:56

No. No. No.

No to French reactors, it will stunt evolution of our own.

No to LEU, they need to be refueled multiple times over its lifetime. BARC needs to evolve from 40% HEU to 80%+.

No because they did be horribly expensive.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 09:00

I think a lot of inter-related issues are being ignored and sidelined in this sudden attraction towards a dusky French mademoiselle.

There is no need to go the LEU way. The US and USSR have stayed HEU forever are doing fine. In fact 90% HEU (bomb grade) would extend the life of the reactor for longer.

I have two serious objections and I will state them one by one

1. A LEU reactor would require a radical redesign.(from 2 step heat transfer to 1 step IIRC) Right now we have a working reactor that we can scale up. If we shift to LEU - it will be nothing less then 10 years before we get a working reactor. I do not believe for one millisecond that the French would really want to give us core tech details (even the Russians did not - we had to build a dummy reactor and run it. Recall that it takes nearly a year to even make the reactor go critical once it is on a sub. What for? We don't need this expensive and fatal delay.

2. My second objection is that India has successfully resisted the "caste system" imposed on us by the CTBT and FMCT. These treaties were planned simply to keep the have nots out. In fact CTBT was timed exactly to screw India. Now look at the situation. The US has a stoockpile of several decades worth of HEU and doe not care. France(and China) got CTBT exemption to do a final nuclear test series to refine their designs. No such concession was given to us or will ever be given.

Everyone knows that although bulky HEU bombs are the easiest to build with a success probability of 100%. After having encouraged Pakistan to go nuclear (US and China) and seeing NoKo run amok the west now want to ensure that HEU does not "leak out"to jihadis. As if the leaks they encouraged all these decades was not enough. And in the process they have consistently screwed countries like India. The nuclear cabal is such that the P5 have a bunch of chela countries who will raise objections to India even of the P5 pretend to support us. And the P5 have built up huge stocks that they can use any time they want and they feel only they are safe and capable of safeguarding those stocks"

Under these circumstances trying to jump into the clutches of an expensive French mademoiselle simply because "we support FMCT" is a bad idea. We do not have stocks of HEU that we may want for whatever purpose and without a level nuclear playing field there is no point getting into this unnecessary tamasha. I am not sure why this issue even came up - sparked simply by a visit of CNS to France. Like saying Singapore will buy LCA because DefMin rode LCA. Heck by that standard NDTV should have bought LCA and Gripen by now because they both gave joyrides to reporters

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 09:00

ShauryaT wrote:No. No. No.

No to French reactors, it will stunt evolution of our own.

No to LEU, they need to be refueled multiple times over its lifetime. BARC needs to evolve from 40% HEU to 80%+.

No because they did be horribly expensive.

+108

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby KrishnaK » 30 Nov 2017 12:41

shiv wrote:I can't understand why perfectly sensible Indians believe that nations can and will "transfer" the technology that they need to stay ahead of the game. I mean - its different from the Vedas that need to be shared freely. France will never "teach us" how to build LEU reactors. Technology is not books - it is people who have worked and ironed out problems. We can't discard all of them and slobber after France and their champagne and frogs legs. We have already screwed up our submarine building program once. Nuke subs are the only thing we have done pretty much on our own and there should be no loose talk of talking to France because some bhenchod nations want to impose 4 letter treaties on us.


Indians understand things just fine. All mil tech purchases are a short term measure to tide over a disadvantage in one area, economy & quantity, with an advantage in another, access to western tech/quality.
Technology is not books - it is people who have worked and ironed out problems.

Further down the line with a larger economy, India will just throw more money to get more people working and ironing out problems, besides other things.

When India says it wants to be a net provider of security, it's willing to signup to foot the bill for someone else's security. At some point further down the line on that road, India will get on board with a lot of the 4 letter treaties for the same reasons the bhenchod nations do.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Nov 2017 13:14

Unfortunately, India has thrown money only to foreign entities and never in India to develop tech. Short term imported solutions have always been prepared.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby RKumar » 30 Nov 2017 14:37

Unconfirmed news ... S3 had already hit the water

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 14:42

KrishnaK wrote: At some point further down the line on that road, India will get on board with a lot of the 4 letter treaties for the same reasons the bhenchod nations do.

Sure. Wake me up when we are "equal partners" rather than second rate power

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Cybaru » 30 Nov 2017 14:53

I doubt anyone will give us naval nuke reactors, what we might get is the sub minus reactor.. we may have to BYOR (bring your own reactor) to the party. I think we wants em new propulsion either from French or russkies for SSN. We could equally like the scorpene product and want an upscaled version.
Last edited by Cybaru on 30 Nov 2017 15:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby JTull » 30 Nov 2017 15:09

shiv wrote:I can't understand why perfectly sensible Indians believe that nations can and will "transfer" the technology that they need to stay ahead of the game. I mean - its different from the Vedas that need to be shared freely. France will never "teach us" how to build LEU reactors. Technology is not books - it is people who have worked and ironed out problems. We can't discard all of them and slobber after France and their champagne and frogs legs. We have already screwed up our submarine building program once. Nuke subs are the only thing we have done pretty much on our own and there should be no loose talk of talking to France because some bhenchod nations want to impose 4 letter treaties on us.


On Europe, it is becoming obvious that the French and Brits will find it increasingly difficult to maintain their nuclear posture. Social commitments are rising and economy is not growing at the rater that would make it easy to absorb the costs of modernising the deterrence.

Cost: Under current dispensation, India is being accepted as a counter-weight to a belligerent China. And, outside of US, China, Russia, who's spending big $$ on military? This collaboration is not ungodly as you might think.

n-Tech: It takes decades to perfect each type of reactor technology. We're getting an opportunity to skip a generation so why not cooperate. Our Russki friends haven't exactly given us the latest n-reactor tech either. If LEU reactors is what India thinks is the future, I see no wrong in this.

sub-tech: IN knows the Barracudas are a generation newer in Propulsion tech, automation, stealth, optics, than Scorpenes that it is only started receiving now. The commonality in systems between diesel (with desi AIP) and N-subs is attractive if we plan to have a large fleet.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 18:59

JTull wrote:
n-Tech: It takes decades to perfect each type of reactor technology. We're getting an opportunity to skip a generation so why not cooperate. Our Russki friends haven't exactly given us the latest n-reactor tech either. If LEU reactors is what India thinks is the future, I see no wrong in this.

This is how we sucker ourselves and get suckered - with the constant refrain that "they" are advanced and we are not. What we develop and keep is "advanced" What they sell us and suck blood in the name of "latest tech" is endless gulami. We need to get this business of "They will give us the best there is" out of our heads. I break my own head seeing Indians saying this - if we are like this on BRF the armed forces and MoD are exactly the same as us - expecting others to "help us out" with "the latest". Maybe Indians share their latest stuff as design drawings in calls for tenders but no exporting nation would give away the secrets of its bread and butter to us. The sooner we stop fooling ourselves the better. We get bugger all when it comes to the best stuff.

20 years ago on BRF I used to hope that the "younger gen" would see these things.

Now, 20 years later, that younger gen are in their 40s, with kids of their own and they are still heading down the suicidal "We can get good tech from abroad path". Perhaps their children will change? I have hope.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 30 Nov 2017 22:44

If LEU reactors were the future, then why was the Arihant class based on HEU. Believe in yourself and continue on your path instead of wasting money on every new thing that someone wants to sell you. A fool and his money are easily parted.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 01 Dec 2017 01:18

As long as the reactor is reliable, easy to operate and maintain, with a long life,tried and proven, our first SSBN /SSN classes should have commonality. In time when we have developed a superior reactor design we can think of installing them on future subs.

JTull
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby JTull » 01 Dec 2017 03:23

shiv, you're reading too much into my comments and shows a bit of inconsistency in BRFites application of what tech we can procure and what we should develop. We're already scouring the world for help with new diesel subs and we've an advertised need for 6 SSNs. Why the hypocrisy against reactor tech from France versus Russia? We're spending the $$ anyway.

Due to my personal background, I've known of Indian n-sub efforts for decades and how they faced various difficulties. If LEU is what powers-be have found attractive then no harm in collaborating. It will take a generation to master a new type of reactor on our own. It will mean we will field less reliable, lower powered tech which may need frequent downtime. That implies a need for more vessels to keep up the deterrence. Both the development and extra subs will cost a lot.

Austin
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 01 Dec 2017 11:50

Periscope: Our Navy needs underwater boost

Arun Kumar Singh : Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh retired as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy's Eastern Naval Command in 2007. A nuclear and missile specialist trained in the former Soviet Union, he was also DG Indian Coast Guard.

On December 4, Navy Day, President Ram Nath Kovind, vice-president M. Venkaiah Naidu, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman along with the three service chiefs and bureaucrats are expected to attend the traditional tea party at Navy House in New Delhi. A few days later, on December 8, the President will review a ceremonial parade at the naval base in Visakhapatnam where the President’s Colours will be presented to the Submarine Arm of the Indian Navy on the 50th anniversary of its foundation day (the Indian tricolour was first hoisted on our first submarine INS Kalvari at Riga, Latvia, on December 8, 1967).

The original INS Kalvari was decommissioned a few years ago but its reincarnation will rejoin the Indian Navy on December 14, when the Navy is formally expected to commission the first French-designed Scorpene-class submarine (built by Mazagaon Docks Limited, Mumbai) as INS Kalvari, in the presence of the Prime Minister. Henceforth, five indigenous Scorpene-class subs will join the Navy, at the rate of one every year. As a former naval officer and submariner, I hope that the President, the Prime Minister and the defence minister will find time to spend a few hours underwater in a submarine as was done in the past by Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and defence minister George Fernandes. Given the recent tragic sinking of the 32-year-old Argentinean submarine ARA San Juan on November 15, 2017 with the loss of her entire crew of 44, it is vital that the Indian Navy gets funding for additional subs, more so as 11 of its 13 conventional subs have crossed their designed life of 25 years; eight of these are over 30 years of age.

With India joining the joint secretary-level talks in Manila last month for the proposed Quadrilateral, or “Quad”, of the US, Japan, India and Australia, to ensure safety and freedom of seas, this basically maritime organisation, if it fructifies, will need India to increase the size of its largely home-built Navy by greatly increasing its miserly naval annual budget of about $5 billion (Chinese Navy budget is $40 billion) starting with the next budget in February 2018. I doubt if the proposed Quad would take the form of a military alliance, nevertheless it may result in sharing real-time intelligence and maritime domain awareness (MDA), cooperation in tracking Chinese subs and warships in the Indian Ocean along with possible coordination of activities to combat piracy and maritime terror. With or without the Quad, the Navy needs additional funds and political support.

I write this article with the experience of having visited and been briefed at ship, submarine, aircraft and missile-building facilities in India and abroad. One encouragement our domestic industry needs is long-term investment and economies of scale. It is my opinion that top priority should be given to the infrastructure development for maritime operations in our long-neglected and strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar, and Lakshadweep and Minicoy Islands.

While the Indian Navy is doing extremely well with about 44 indigenous ships and submarines (another 20 more are expected to be contracted for soon) in Indian shipyards, there exist some critical shortcomings. In my last article, Sitharaman’s to-do list for next 16 months published in this newspaper on September 8, 2017, I had listed three items which would need urgent government approval for domestic production — viz conventional and nuclear subs (SSK, SSN, SSBN), mine counter-measures vessels and light (four tonnes) and medium (12 tonnes) multi-role ship-borne helicopters. Indeed the Indian Navy, which has over the last 60 years built up a team of highly competent warship and submarine design specialists, now needs to consider inducting design specialists for aircraft, helicopter as well as the UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles). And since Artificial Intelligence (AI) is the future of human progress and also warfare, it is vital for the Navy to create a cadre of AI specialists. Also, since I am unaware of the results of the Indo-US talks on building a 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier (IAC2) in India, with the latest electric propulsion and EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system), I have not written about it here. I am happy that the Navy has finally decided that IAC2 will not be nuclear-propelled.

I now come to some articles in the press criticising the Indian Navy for “abandoning” the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA-Navy) jet fighter project, and sending an RFI (request for information) for 57 foreign twin-engine jet fighters needed to operate from the indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant (IAC-1) when it becomes operational in 2021, and also for the planned IAC-2. The actual facts about LCA (Navy) are that the HAL-designed LCA Tejas, made for the IAF, was heavier by one tonne and the naval version which required additional modifications (a “drooped nose” for better pilot visibility and a strengthened undercarriage with tail hook for arrester wire landing system on a carrier) was two tonnes overweight. Trials ashore on the Shore-Based Test Facility in Goa, which replicates an aircraft-carrier flight deck on land, indicated that the LCA (Navy) in its present form could not take off within the 195-metre deck runway space with any worthwhile load and neither could it land on the carrier. But true to its faith in indigenisation, the Indian Navy continues to fund the naval version of LCA Mk2 with a more powerful American engine GE 414, replacing the present GE 404 which powers the LCA Mk1.


Lastly, given the enormous in-house expertise available and capability built-up of domestic vendors for nuclear submarines, India urgently needs to commence domestic production of SSNs in a separate production line. The only Indian platform capable of stealthily tracking Chinese warships in the Indian Ocean and also patrolling in the western Pacific to deter China is the SSN. Hopefully, the February 2018 defence budget may bring good news for a home-built, balanced and three-dimensional Indian Navy.

Austin
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Austin » 01 Dec 2017 12:48

Sandeep‏ @SandeepUnnithan
9m9 minutes ago

Big news. Adm Lanba on 6 indigenous SSNs. "It has kicked off...it's 1 of classified projects...process has started."

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Karthik S » 01 Dec 2017 19:56

India starts building 6 nuclear-powered attack submarines

ByHemant BijapurkarPosted on December 1, 2017

In what might be a huge boost to India’s ingenious defence production capabilities, the nation has commenced the process to build 6 nuclear powered submarines. Their induction in the navy’s armada is expected to significantly increase the Navy’s strike capabilities in the face of China’s growing belligerence in the Indo-pacific region.

Being a classified project, not many details are known but as per Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, the process has started.

As per Admiral Lanba, the Indian Navy would play a pivotal role in the Indo-Pacific region where a golden quadrilateral of India, Australia, Japan and the US is proposed to take shape. Lanba was quoted as saying, all are aware of the prevailing security scenario in the maritime domain and the continued presence of both traditional and non-traditional threats demand constant attention and robust mitigating measures.

In 2016, INS Arihant was commissioned as India’s first ingenious nuclear powered submarine. After India inducts 6 more such warships, it would not only become a fearsome naval force, it would also become a strong force in defence manufacturing.

We had recently reported how DRDO too is making very impressive strides in defence production after it developed India’s first unmanned remotely operated tank. The tank named Muntra was rolled out of DRDO’s Chennai lab.

This tank can chiefly be used in three ways that are surveillance, mine detection and reconnaissance. It can also operate in areas which have nuclear and bio hazards.

India is also significantly progressing in the field of Nuclear power. We had recently reported how work was supposed to begin at Rooppur Nuclear Power plant in Bangladesh, which is India’s first overseas atomic venture.

This upcoming nuclear power plant is being built via an Indo-Russian collaboration and its “first pouring of concrete” ceremony was to take place on 30th November. This has been conveyed to New Delhi and the ceremony would take place at Rooppur which is about 169 kilometres.


Slightly misleading title, but are we building power plant in BD??

http://www.opindia.com/2017/12/india-st ... ubmarines/

shiv
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2017 20:09

All OT

http://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh/ ... tion-work/
Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina launched the main building phase of the country’s first nuclear plant on Thursday by pouring concrete at the construction site at Rooppur in Ishwardi, Pabna.

The long-awaited Rooppur Nuclear Power Plant (RNPP) is expected to add 2,400MW of electricity to the national grid by 2024, helping Bangladesh meet its increasing demand for electricity.

The mega project is being implemented by the state-run Bangladesh Atomic Energy Commission (BAEC) under the MInistry of Science and Technology, with financial, technical and technological support by Russia through its state nuclear agency, Rosatom.

Plans for the RNPP date back to November 2011, when Bangladesh signed an agreement with Rosatom to construct the nuclear plant. Under the deal, Russia agreed to provide all assistance for running the plant, including providing the fuel and taking back the radioactive waste for reprocessing.


https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/india-c ... sh-1753019
Dr Basu's remarks are significant given that the Indian nuclear establishment for years has not been able to grow, internationally, due to sanctions imposed on New Delhi post the 1974 Pokhran tests.

It was, however, not clear what kind of "collaboration" India was doing since it is not a member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) - a 48 member grouping that controls the export of materials, equipment and technology that can be used to manufacture nukes.

According to the December 2014 'Strategic Vision for Strengthening Cooperation in Peaceful Uses of Atomic Energy' between India and Russia, the "two sides will explore opportunities for sourcing materials, equipment and services from Indian industry for the construction of the Russian- designed nuclear power plants in third countries".

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Viv S » 01 Dec 2017 20:13

Cybaru wrote:I doubt anyone will give us naval nuke reactors, what we might get is the sub minus reactor.. we may have to BYOR (bring your own reactor) to the party. I think we wants em new propulsion either from French or russkies for SSN. We could equally like the scorpene product and want an upscaled version.

Bingo. The French will provide design consultancy for the SSN project similar to how the Russians provided it for the SSBN project. The reactor development however will be a domestic responsibility.

Case-in-point: BRAZIL

The EBN naval base and shipyard will also build Brazil’s first SSN. The project was first conceived in the 1980s. Over the coming decade, the Prosub programme will, at last, bring the idea to fruition. In Brazil, the SN-BR is the declared ultimate aim of the Prosub programme launched in 2009.

French cooperation is, however, confined to the non-nuclear parts of the SN-BR programme, or, to be more precise, the platform, but not the nuclear powerplant section. Also, whereas the Scorpene and its Brazilian variant (i.e. the S-BR boats) were designed by Naval Group, the SN-BR is being wholly designed by Brazilians. One of the main aims of the S-BR programme is to give Brazil the know-how and industrial capabilities to build submarines while the SSN part of the Prosub programme aims to give Brazilian engineers the expertise to design SSNs. To this end, a submarine design school was set up at NG’s Lorient shipyard. Brazilian engineers attended the school for two years, before moving back to the Navy’s São Paulo design bureau earlier this year to work on the SN-BR programme.

Image

For Fleet Admiral Gilberto Max Roffé Hirschfeld, “the biggest challenge of the SN-BR programme is clearly the nuclear propulsion as this is the only area for which we do not have the benefit of a technology transfer. The propulsion system is thus our sole responsibility. This means that we must independently develop the relevant advanced technologies while ensuring maximum safety since nuclear engineering risks must be kept as close as possible to zero. Ultimately, we aim to achieve complete sovereignty in this field.”


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