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Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Singha
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Singha » 02 Dec 2017 19:58

in KG Class one boy pulled this trick on me.

he had a nice rubber which I wanted so I asked him.
he asked me for a poppins which he dropped in his water bottle to sweeten it
then he smirked and asked me for one more, I gave one more
soon i had no poppins left and was empty handed.
i could not even understand his modus operandi then

few days later on some other issue, he started hitting my arm
I hit him once hard on his face (I was much larger and heftier)
he wailed and started crying and called in the teacher
the teacher moved me to another bench in the class
he never troubled me again.

"asking" for something thats in control of others just gives them leverage to use on you.
if you can live without it or find a workaround, then dont ask.
go feral, burn some forests and villages allied to "them", rile up revolt in their ranks, discredit their leaders
if they feel you are more trouble outside the tent than in, you will be chauferred in

shiv
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 02 Dec 2017 20:03

krishna_krishna wrote:Can the same arrangement be done on HEU to quickly change the cores rather than cutting open the boat and waiting for months ?

In 3 words "I don't know".

But I vaguely recall some stuff I read earlier.

HEU is more compact and can be made to heat up suddenly and quickly to generate power for the sub to rush off at high speed. From this I think that HEU cores run hotter and so the heat that is transferred for power generation comes in 2 stages. There are a set of superheated water pipes that take the heat to a secondary set of water pipes. That secondary water is heated and used to generate power for the sub.

The LEU reactor runs cooler (I think) and just has one stage where water is heated to transfer power. In other words the structure is (probably) simpler and allows easier access to the core. It probably also cools down faster. I think it would take many weeks for a nuclear core to cool. LEU also gets expended sooner so there have to be more frequent changes.

Cutting submarines and inserting a piece is something that has been done regularly for decades. It will be done to our Scorpenes also to insert AIP. Again I think people are getting fooled into imagining that the French subs simply have very little downtime because of this. No. All subs need overhauling every 2-3 months and crew need rest etc. So at best it is 3 months on 3 months off. French SSN subs need more frequent refuelling. They is no other go. They have to be refuelled or they will stop running as U235 burns up. And they can only patrol slowly. The reactor cannot generate power for high speed chases. This may be OK for what the French want as the pdf says. 3 months on and 3 months off (or something similar) is done for all subs but after 10 or 20 years the HEU subs will be taken off for a longer period. Recall that crews will go mad if they are sent back on patrol without rest time in between so there is a human factor there. But in an emergency the LEU sub may be forced to return for refuelling no matter what but not the HEU sub. So it is a trade-off
Last edited by shiv on 02 Dec 2017 20:05, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 02 Dec 2017 20:04

Singha wrote:there is no such "rule"

just because a newly minted billionaire brown man buys a home in chelsea or atherton will he get invited to the dinner parties and golf clubs of the old boys? I doubt it.

either he has to bring down and discredit the old order and get to the top of the dung hill or setup his own parallel power structure by getting more likeminded non old boys under his umbrella.

what exactly do we have to fear by not being a member of the P5? that someone will pass a motion to declare war or sanctions on us and rest will abstain or say aye?

cover every member of the P5 with 30 survivable land based ICBMs and let peace flower.

we have nothing to fear except fear itself.

Well said.

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 02 Dec 2017 20:31

Singha wrote:in KG Class one boy pulled this trick on me.

he had a nice rubber which I wanted so I asked him.
he asked me for a poppins which he dropped in his water bottle to sweeten it
then he smirked and asked me for one more, I gave one more
soon i had no poppins left and was empty handed.
i could not even understand his modus operandi then

few days later on some other issue, he started hitting my arm
I hit him once hard on his face (I was much larger and heftier)
he wailed and started crying and called in the teacher
the teacher moved me to another bench in the class
he never troubled me again.

"asking" for something thats in control of others just gives them leverage to use on you.
if you can live without it or find a workaround, then dont ask.
go feral, burn some forests and villages allied to "them", rile up revolt in their ranks, discredit their leaders
if they feel you are more trouble outside the tent than in, you will be chauferred in

GD - that is what I find so sad about India's state. We take pride in
a) We're the biggest importer of arms in the world - we can buy Rafale, JSF, FGFA, Akulas, and so on
b) Russia shares techs with us that it won't with China (yet the Chinese have every Russian tech worth getting)
c) That the US will "help" India be a superpower

India is a "silly" power today because of its sycophantic attitude towards suppliers with some vested interests egging the country to be even more sycophantic for imagined help in the past. The Russians and the French do not allow India to even put a tyre on "our" aircraft without their approval. If the French had supplied M2Ks to the Chinese you would have seen a J-xx clone flying by now. India tries to be the world's good boy and doesn't realise one fundamental himan behavior - solutions only go to problems. Every one and their uncle has proliferated, PERIOD. Yet we hang the title of "saints" around our necks.

Rakesh
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 02 Dec 2017 20:49

Chinmay wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Context please for the picture.

That's the INS Chakra I suppose. Docking post sonar damage?

I believe that is during comissioning ceremony. I could be wrong.

Rakesh
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Rakesh » 02 Dec 2017 20:52

@ShauryaT: Thank you so much for the link below. Got homework to do :)

http://www.nti.org/media/pdfs/Replacing ... 1458832580

shiv
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby shiv » 02 Dec 2017 21:17

Vivek K wrote:GD - that is what I find so sad about India's state. We take pride in
a) We're the biggest importer of arms in the world - we can buy Rafale, JSF, FGFA, Akulas, and so on
b) Russia shares techs with us that it won't with China (yet the Chinese have every Russian tech worth getting)
c) That the US will "help" India be a superpower

India is a "silly" power today because of its sycophantic attitude towards suppliers with some vested interests egging the country to be even more sycophantic for imagined help in the past. The Russians and the French do not allow India to even put a tyre on "our" aircraft without their approval. If the French had supplied M2Ks to the Chinese you would have seen a J-xx clone flying by now. India tries to be the world's good boy and doesn't realise one fundamental himan behavior - solutions only go to problems. Every one and their uncle has proliferated, PERIOD. Yet we hang the title of "saints" around our necks.


My take on Twitter
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/936231609849618438
Indians have such low self esteem and such a poor opinion of ourselves that we constantly get suckered imagining that others will somehow give us their latest military technology. Generation after generation falls into this trap.

abhik
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby abhik » 03 Dec 2017 00:17

Karthik S wrote:...
Also, UK and France are in P5 predominantly on the basis of their boomers.

There were no such thing as boomers when UK and France were included in the P5, in fact they did not even have nukes. They got in at the right time and closed the door behind them.

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 03 Dec 2017 02:40

The Arihant and Aridhaman are the result of Indian innovation and exceptionalism. Let us celebrate their achievements. I bet that S-3 is already deployed somewhere.

kit
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 03 Dec 2017 06:05

abhik wrote:
Karthik S wrote:...
Also, UK and France are in P5 predominantly on the basis of their boomers.

There were no such thing as boomers when UK and France were included in the P5, in fact they did not even have nukes. They got in at the right time and closed the door behind them.


unless some one kicks it wide open ! either by making it redundant for eg carrying a bigger stick than them or threaten to undermine their "non proliferation "

kit
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby kit » 03 Dec 2017 06:07

Vivek K wrote:
Singha wrote:in KG Class one boy pulled this trick on me.

he had a nice rubber which I wanted so I asked him.
he asked me for a poppins which he dropped in his water bottle to sweeten it
then he smirked and asked me for one more, I gave one more
soon i had no poppins left and was empty handed.
i could not even understand his modus operandi then

few days later on some other issue, he started hitting my arm
I hit him once hard on his face (I was much larger and heftier)
he wailed and started crying and called in the teacher
the teacher moved me to another bench in the class
he never troubled me again.

"asking" for something thats in control of others just gives them leverage to use on you.
if you can live without it or find a workaround, then dont ask.
go feral, burn some forests and villages allied to "them", rile up revolt in their ranks, discredit their leaders
if they feel you are more trouble outside the tent than in, you will be chauferred in

GD - that is what I find so sad about India's state. We take pride in
a) We're the biggest importer of arms in the world - we can buy Rafale, JSF, FGFA, Akulas, and so on
b) Russia shares techs with us that it won't with China (yet the Chinese have every Russian tech worth getting)
c) That the US will "help" India be a superpower

India is a "silly" power today because of its sycophantic attitude towards suppliers with some vested interests egging the country to be even more sycophantic for imagined help in the past. The Russians and the French do not allow India to even put a tyre on "our" aircraft without their approval. If the French had supplied M2Ks to the Chinese you would have seen a J-xx clone flying by now. India tries to be the world's good boy and doesn't realise one fundamental himan behavior - solutions only go to problems. Every one and their uncle has proliferated, PERIOD. Yet we hang the title of "saints" around our necks.


everyone AND HIS UNCLE copies ..the US Russia from Germany., Japan from US ...some people are better at copying :mrgreen: as every one knows !!

Singha
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2017 07:20

soln to a closed door is not to be a beggar kocking on it, asking and wailing for the door to open...

it is to set the house on fire so the occupants open the door and run away - discredit and burn down the old dung hill order, make it unviable

or bolt the current door, carve out another door next to it, squat on it and demand from anyone moving in and out - burrow in and harass the old order and engulf it in your own aura of power.

ie be a rent seeker or disruptor, not a status quoist.

uk and france btw are due to be crossed in $$ terms as economy by india by 2020. we are very close and growing much faster.

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 04 Dec 2017 07:25

Absolutely right GD. If Roos does not cooperate, demonstrate REed clones of MKI, move the Aridhaman in open seas (with the Arihant behind it). Order 12 more Shivalik Classes and 1500 Arjuns, 250 LCAs. Tell the world that you're a SELF MADE POWER and that you can play in the big league. Demonstrate capabilities of the Aridhaman copied by the Arihant. Threaten to walk away from the T-90 if barrel tech is not transferred.

Set the weapon suppliers of the world on fire by becoming the "smallest arms importer of the world".

Jayram
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Jayram » 04 Dec 2017 11:35

Rakesh wrote:@ShauryaT: Thank you so much for the link below. Got homework to do :)

http://www.nti.org/media/pdfs/Replacing ... 1458832580


Great Link and read.
From that link Appendix B: Submarine Power Requirements has some interesting calculations
The resulting calculations displayed in the table A-9 give a useful indication of the relative power requirements of the various types of submarines. The calculations seems to indicate that our first attempt reactor in Arihant is slightly underpowered for the rated or published top speed. This can also be confirmed by reports that our very second boat Arindhaman is supposed to have a larger power reactor in it.

Image

Inshallah The day is not far off when our published speed is well below that actual speed the boat can do.

siddhu
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby siddhu » 04 Dec 2017 11:39

Singha wrote:in KG Class one boy pulled this trick on me.

he had a nice rubber which I wanted so I asked him.
he asked me for a poppins which he dropped in his water bottle to sweeten it
then he smirked and asked me for one more, I gave one more
soon i had no poppins left and was empty handed.
i could not even understand his modus operandi then

few days later on some other issue, he started hitting my arm
I hit him once hard on his face (I was much larger and heftier)
he wailed and started crying and called in the teacher
the teacher moved me to another bench in the class
he never troubled me again.

"asking" for something thats in control of others just gives them leverage to use on you.
if you can live without it or find a workaround, then dont ask.
go feral, burn some forests and villages allied to "them", rile up revolt in their ranks, discredit their leaders
if they feel you are more trouble outside the tent than in, you will be chauferred in


Or you let them think that they have leverage.

Philip
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Posts: 17837
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Location: India

Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2017 13:32

Excellent advice from former Chief of EC.
Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh retired as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy's Eastern Naval Command in 2007. A nuclear and missile specialist trained in the former Soviet Union, he was also DG Indian Coast Guard.


V.Adm.Singh underscores the urgent need to beef up the budget of the IN substantially if we are to meet the ominous and growing challenge from the PLAN and PN,a combined threat.Reg. reactor design and production,we turned that corner some years ago with the first test-bed N-sub reactor at Kalpakkam.How much help we recd. from Russia is classified,but collating a string of articles and reports form that time,indicate that it helped us enough with the design,drawings,etc.,to succeed where BAARC had previously failed.The then PM profusely thanked Ru for its help during the launch of the Arihant. The need now is for a more powerful reactor design for the larger subs and one is sure that the GOI took such reqs. in hand a long time ago with RU for any assistance for improved reactors.The latest N-plants being used in the current subs being built in Ru for their latest subs are supposed to have even better performance/silencing and no doubt the IN/BAARC will be following the latest developments in their new desi designs.

With another two Akula-2/3s hinted at from recent reports,and hopefully with the Chakra-2 still available ,3 late model Akulas which have incorporated some of the latest tech in recent sov. subs,should give us a v.powerful SSGN capability,esp. armed with extended range BMos and Klub/Kalibir/Nirbhay classes of LRCMs. The class of the first 6 SSNs too will give us the numbers reqd. to stalk any PLAN SSNs operating in the IOR,which from 2020+ we must expect on an annual ,permanent basis. News not too long ago associated with the 3rd Akula,said that a team from the IN would be based at the Ru shipyard building the sub,so that they could later on use their hands-on experience gained in Russia back in India for our indigenous line.The official announcement of the start of the SSN programme is very welcome news.While SSBN construction appears to be proceeding as planned,the other UW req. is for large numbers of affordable conv./AIP boats to replace the dozen or so Kilos and U-209s,quite elderly,many of which have had "hip,knee" and other replacements ,new "teeth" too! From around the early 2020s,these will fast retire and the 6 Scorpenes,non-AIP and unable to carry BMos or Klub will be used mote for HUK ops rather than full blue-water multi-role subs.The DRDO AIP system is awaited eagerly which could prove to be a v.significant achievement if it performs as intended and would be used for future conv. boats including the P-75Is.Numbers are essential as we've seen China establish naval bases in Djibouti,Gwadar,and have just now signed an FTA with the Maldives ,who have completely disregarded India's security objections.Portends in Sri Lanka too are not without concern.

With the news that a new naval base is to be set up in the Chennai/TN east coast region,de-congesting Vizag,( and naval facilities planned at Tuticorin too later on) the role of pvt. yards in building/helping build our future subs ,already engaged in the SSBN programme is only going to be enhanced,great opportunites for major players.We need at least 3 yards churning out subs at pace,MDL,HSL and perhaps L$T's at Katupalli.In the future another yard perhaps at Karwar could be set up ,further away from those established in Gujarat,closer to Paki attack,whwich could be used to build a variety of surface combatants and auxiliaries instead.

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion ... boost.html

Periscope: Our Navy needs underwater boost
Published Dec 1, 2017, 2:32 am ISTUpdated Dec 1, 2017, 2:32 am IST

The only Indian platform capable of tracking Chinese warships in the Indian Ocean is the SSN.
India to increase the size of its largely home-built Navy by greatly increasing its miserly naval annual budget of about $5 billion.
India to increase the size of its largely home-built Navy by greatly increasing its miserly naval annual budget of about $5 billion.
On December 4, Navy Day, President Ram Nath Kovind, vice-president M. Venkaiah Naidu, Prime Minister Narendra Modi, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman along with the three service chiefs and bureaucrats are expected to attend the traditional tea party at Navy House in New Delhi. A few days later, on December 8, the President will review a ceremonial parade at the naval base in Visakhapatnam where the President’s Colours will be presented to the Submarine Arm of the Indian Navy on the 50th anniversary of its foundation day (the Indian tricolour was first hoisted on our first submarine INS Kalvari at Riga, Latvia, on December 8, 1967). The original INS Kalvari was decommissioned a few years ago but its reincarnation will rejoin the Indian Navy on December 14, when the Navy is formally expected to commission the first French-designed Scorpene-class submarine (built by Mazagaon Docks Limited, Mumbai) as INS Kalvari, in the presence of the Prime Minister. Henceforth, five indigenous Scorpene-class subs will join the Navy, at the rate of one every year. As a former naval officer and submariner, I hope that the President, the Prime Minister and the defence minister will find time to spend a few hours underwater in a submarine as was done in the past by Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi, President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam and defence minister George Fernandes. Given the recent tragic sinking of the 32-year-old Argentinean submarine ARA San Juan on November 15, 2017 with the loss of her entire crew of 44, it is vital that the Indian Navy gets funding for additional subs, more so as 11 of its 13 conventional subs have crossed their designed life of 25 years; eight of these are over 30 years of age.

With India joining the joint secretary-level talks in Manila last month for the proposed Quadrilateral, or “Quad”, of the US, Japan, India and Australia, to ensure safety and freedom of seas, this basically maritime organisation, if it fructifies, will need India to increase the size of its largely home-built Navy by greatly increasing its miserly naval annual budget of about $5 billion (Chinese Navy budget is $40 billion) starting with the next budget in February 2018. I doubt if the proposed Quad would take the form of a military alliance, nevertheless it may result in sharing real-time intelligence and maritime domain awareness (MDA), cooperation in tracking Chinese subs and warships in the Indian Ocean along with possible coordination of activities to combat piracy and maritime terror. With or without the Quad, the Navy needs additional funds and political support.

I write this article with the experience of having visited and been briefed at ship, submarine, aircraft and missile-building facilities in India and abroad. One encouragement our domestic industry needs is long-term investment and economies of scale. It is my opinion that top priority should be given to the infrastructure development for maritime operations in our long-neglected and strategically-located Andaman and Nicobar, and Lakshadweep and Minicoy Islands.

While the Indian Navy is doing extremely well with about 44 indigenous ships and submarines (another 20 more are expected to be contracted for soon) in Indian shipyards, there exist some critical shortcomings. In my last article, Sitharaman’s to-do list for next 16 months published in this newspaper on September 8, 2017, I had listed three items which would need urgent government approval for domestic production — viz conventional and nuclear subs (SSK, SSN, SSBN), mine counter-measures vessels and light (four tonnes) and medium (12 tonnes) multi-role ship-borne helicopters. Indeed the Indian Navy, which has over the last 60 years built up a team of highly competent warship and submarine design specialists, now needs to consider inducting design specialists for aircraft, helicopter as well as the UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles). And since Artificial Intelligence (AI) is the future of human progress and also warfare, it is vital for the Navy to create a cadre of AI specialists. Also, since I am unaware of the results of the Indo-US talks on building a 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier (IAC2) in India, with the latest electric propulsion and EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system), I have not written about it here. I am happy that the Navy has finally decided that IAC2 will not be nuclear-propelled.

I now come to some articles in the press criticising the Indian Navy for “abandoning” the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA-Navy) jet fighter project, and sending an RFI (request for information) for 57 foreign twin-engine jet fighters needed to operate from the indigenous aircraft carrier Vikrant (IAC-1) when it becomes operational in 2021, and also for the planned IAC-2. The actual facts about LCA (Navy) are that the HAL-designed LCA Tejas, made for the IAF, was heavier by one tonne and the naval version which required additional modifications (a “drooped nose” for better pilot visibility and a strengthened undercarriage with tail hook for arrester wire landing system on a carrier) was two tonnes overweight. Trials ashore on the Shore-Based Test Facility in Goa, which replicates an aircraft-carrier flight deck on land, indicated that the LCA (Navy) in its present form could not take off within the 195-metre deck runway space with any worthwhile load and neither could it land on the carrier. But true to its faith in indigenisation, the Indian Navy continues to fund the naval version of LCA Mk2 with a more powerful American engine GE 414, replacing the present GE 404 which powers the LCA Mk1.

Lastly, given the enormous in-house expertise available and capability built-up of domestic vendors for nuclear submarines, India urgently needs to commence domestic production of SSNs in a separate production line. The only Indian platform capable of stealthily tracking Chinese warships in the Indian Ocean and also patrolling in the western Pacific to deter China is the SSN. Hopefully, the February 2018 defence budget may bring good news for a home-built, balanced and three-dimensional Indian Navy.
Last edited by Philip on 04 Dec 2017 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

Viv S
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Viv S » 04 Dec 2017 16:21

Philip wrote:Reg. reactor design and production,we turned that corner some years ago with the first test-bed N-sub reactor at Kalpakkam.How much help we recd. from Russia is classified,but collating a string of articles and reports form that time,indicate that it helped us enough with the design,drawings,etc.,to succeed where BAARC had previously failed.

Repeat a lie long enough till it becomes the truth eh commissar?

We have DAE officials, on-the-record stating that, while the Russians provided general design consultancy for the Arihant, the reactor was an entirely indigenous success but that isn't going stop you from claiming that it was the Russians rescued the poor failing BARC. You've supposedly seen a 'string of articles', so the BARC folks must the liars here.

Asked whether the Russians helped in designing and building the PWR, Kakodkar, Banerjee and Basu were emphatic that BARC developed it on its own. Banerjee said: “The Russians were consultants. The consultancy was done for the whole submarine, not for the power part alone.” Basu asserted, “Everything is totally indigenous [in this PWR]…. We developed it. It is our own reactor. We did not take it from anybody else.”

M.R. Srinivasan, former AEC Chairman, was also emphatic that the DAE developed the reactor on its own. While building the reactor “was always a part of the DAE’s activity”, the Navy’s role was to design and build the submarine, he said. So it was a joint DAE-Navy project. Srinivasan said, “The naval personnel had some assistance from Russia in designing the submarine, but the reactor is a totally Indian effort. The reactor, its components including the pressure vessels, and its fuel were made in India by Indian industry.” - Link

Philip
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2017 17:58

Yes Viv,then our former PM was a liar too when he thanked Russia profusely for its help..Why then have several (140+) Ru technical experts been at HSL for years working on the Arihant either? They were present at the launch.And why are our IN personnel going to Russia to learn how to build an N-sub? Why can''t you stop your perverse anti-Ru attitude and accept reality.You have such an aversion to anything Russian that it has blinded your objectivism.

Oh by the way,here's Kakokdar on the issue too.Know him? No Indian scientist or IN personnel will go on record as to the extent of Ru assistance.Here's two reports open source to clear the picture.Pl read the second one.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/russian ... kar-399140
Russians helped with INS Arihant's heart: Kakodkar
India | Pallava Bagla | Updated: August 03, 2009 14:34 IST
TS
Russians helped with INS Arihant's heart: Kakodkar
Click to Play

KALPAKKAM: India unveiled the compact atomic reactor, the very heart of the supine beauty the INS Arihant, the country's very own nuclear submarine.

Made in complete secrecy, it was talked about in hushed whispers. Now in an exclusive interview to NDTV's Science Editor Pallava Bagla, the chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, Dr Anil Kakodkar reveals that Russians did help and that it really is a very quiet vessel that adds to India's strategic depth.

Here are some excerpts from this exclusive interview recorded right inside the top secret facility in Kalpakkam on the coast of the Bay of Bengal.

Q: Was this completely made in India?

A: Yes.

Q: Designed, fabricated and executed in India?

A: Yes, that's right, by Indian industries.

Q: And by Indian scientists?

A: Yes

Q: At Vizag, the Prime Minister went out of the way and thanked the Russians, and the Russian ambassador was also present. What was the role of the Russians? India had leased a Russian nuclear submarine?

A: I would also like to thank our Russian colleagues they have played a very important role as consultants, they have a lot of experience in this so their consultancy has been of great help so that so that I think we should acknowledge.

Q: Consultancy for what?

A: For various things, as you go along when you are doing things for the first time with a consultant by your side you can do it more confidently and these are difficult time consuming challenges so you have to do this without too much of iterative steps and this helped in that.

Q: So this is not a Russian design?

A: It is an Indian design.

Q: Indian design, made in India, by Indians?

A: Yes, that's right.

Q: Is the noise level comparable to other submarines of this class, since that is a way of detecting submarines?

A: Yes, I think so. You have seen the inside and tell me if you felt some sound there?

Q: Compared to a power reactor the sound was minimal.

A: Compared to machinery running in any other places, did you hear much sound? I think this is very quiet system.

India is inching closer to becoming a world power. You can watch the full interview where details about INS Arihant's nuclear reactor are gently unveiled by India's nuclear chief Dr. Anil Kakodkar, later this week only on NDTV.


https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_tha ... mer_533849
Arihant: How Russia helped deliver India’s baby boomer
OCT 26, 2015 RAKESH KRISHNAN SIMHA
The first clear image of INS Arihant, taken by NDTV. Source: NDTV snapshot

As India’s first nuclear powered submarine prepares for its maiden missile launch, a look at the extent of Russian assistance in the Arihant project.
The India-Russia partnership has resulted in a string of successful defence projects, but none is more strategically important than INS Arihant, India’s first indigenously developed nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine.

The 6000 ton Arihant, which has completed sea trials, is likely to undergo its maiden missile test-firing this month. The test will in all likelihood involve the 700 kilometre range K-15 submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) or the 3,500 kilometre K-4.
If successful, India will finally be able to complete its nuclear triad, giving the country’s strategic planners multiple options if it comes to a nuclear confrontation. A nuclear triad refers to the three components of atomic weapons delivery: strategic bombers, intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) and SLBMs.

Of the three elements of the triad, the SLBMs are considered the most important because nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines – aka SSBN, for ship submersible ballistic nuclear or ‘boomer’ in the colloquial language of seamen – are the hardest to destroy. They give you the ability to retaliate if the enemy destroys your ICBMS or strategic bombers in a surprise attack.
Boomer technology is therefore a closely guarded secret. In fact, in the entire history of nuclear weapons systems, there are only two known instances of one state actively helping another acquire a boomer. In the 1960s the Americans passed on SSBN and SLBM technology to their British cousins as a token of their special relationship. (Strategically, however, it is of no significance because the British fleet is not only tiny but it reportedly cannot fire its missiles without American approval.) The only other instance is Russia providing assistance to India in building the Arihant.
The third leg of the nuclear triad is of great significance to India. If a first strike takes out India’s land-based ballistic nuclear missiles and strategic aviation, then the Indian Navy’s boomers lurking in the ocean depths can launch retaliatory strikes that will render the attacking country unfit for human life.

False start
India initiated work on a nuclear powered submarine in 1974 – three years after the 1971 India Pakistan War during which the American aircraft carrier USS Enterprise steamed up the Bay of Bengal and a British fleet sailed towards the direction of Mumbai as a warning to India. In response, Russia despatched nuclear-armed submarines and ships from its Pacific Fleet in Vladivostok to prevent a joint US-British strike on India. The then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was said to have been so impressed by the Russian fleet’s ability to change the course of the war that she ordered the launch of the project.

However, typical of Indian defence projects, the submarine programme never quite achieved traction. Although the navy was involved, the project was from the start under the thumb of the civilian Department of Atomic Energy (DAE). Way in over its head in a project it couldn’t begin to fathom, the DAE failed to come up with a nuclear reactor that could operate on the rough seas.
According to Praful Bidwai, the DAE’s original design of 1975 proved totally unviable and had to be abandoned after about Rs 100 crore (or Rs 1 billion in today’s terms) was spent on it.

“The DAE learnt no lessons from this disaster,” Bidwai says. “Indeed, when a critic with a reactor engineering doctorate, then navy Captain B.K. Subba Rao, voiced his doubts about its design, he was victimised. He was arrested on his way abroad for an academic conference and charged with espionage – an accusation he successfully disproved after long periods in jail.”
By the mid-1980s the project had soaked up as much as Rs 2,500 crore (Rs 25 billion) in research and development costs. Bidwai says the project failed because the concerned agencies couldn’t fabricate high-quality components and equipment, but the constant interference by the civilian bureaucracy certainly took its toll.

Enter the Russians
The project was re-launched in 1985 under Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) co-ordination with the codename Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV). With a retired vice admiral in charge, work on a prototype reactor began at the Kalpakkam nuclear power plant.
“But the project was still not getting anywhere,” says V. Koithara in the book Managing India’s Nuclear Forces. “India then sought and got much more substantial Russian help than had been envisaged earlier. The construction of the submarine’s hull began in 1998, and a basically Russian-designed 83 megawatt pressurised-water reactor was fitted in the hull nine years later.”

Ashok Parthasarthi, a former science and technology adviser to the late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, sums up the extent of Russian assistance: “India's first indigenous nuclear submarine, INS Arihant...would have just been impossible to realise without Russia’s massive all-round consultancy, technology transfer, technical services and training, technical 'know-how' and 'show-how,' design of the submarine as a whole, and above all numerous operational 'tips' based on 50 years of experience in designing, building and operating nuclear submarines.”

According to Bidwai, “Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the DAE and DRDO....It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.”
And if there were any doubts about the extent of Russian involvement, they were cast away on July 26, 2009 when 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants – all participants in the project – attended the boomer’s launch ceremony at Visakhapatnam on the east coast.

Misguided move?
As well as Arihant class boomers, the Indian Navy also plans to acquire as many as six nuclear-powered attack submarines or sub surface nuclear (SSN). India is reportedly holding discussions with shipbuilders from France and the US on participating in the SSN project. This seems wrong in so many ways.
Unlike western support, Russian assistance comes with no strings attached. “Although Russian assistance was extended throughout the 25-year designing and building of Arihant, at no time did anyone in the Russian government ever even mention any end-use restriction,” Parthasarthi points out.
This is significant in the backdrop of India’s quest for diversification in defence purchases. Parthasarthi contrasts Russian military sales with American assistance. “And yet, if India were to import some incomparably low-tech electronic warfare equipment from the US, the US government will demand the application of the end user monitoring agreement.”
When choosing a partner for its future nuclear sub fleet, the Navy brass and the political leadership should bear in mind that the US has traditionally been an unreliable partner in almost every area but especially in defence matters.

France, which welched on the $1 billion Mistral deal with Russia, is no better. Where once it pursued an independent foreign policy, Paris’ interests are now closely aligned with those of the US. French armed forces are partnering the US in a range of conflicts in the Middle East.

“If an Indo-Pak war occurs or we conduct nuclear device tests, the NATO government of the foreign supplier will embargo all supplies of spares and technical services, thereby immobilising our imported weapon systems. Only Russia has never applied embargoes on us,” Parthasarthi explains.
Also, India has had the opportunity, which no other country has had, to test drive foreign nuclear submarines. The Indian Navy was able to lease and operate a Charlie class Soviet submarine for three years beginning 1988.
Again, in 2012 India acquired an Akula II class nuclear attack submarine from the Russian Navy, with an option to buy the vessel after the lease expires. Three hundred Indian Navy personnel were trained in Russia for the operation of the submarine, which was renamed Chakra II.
Can you imagine the US, France or Germany offering India such terms?
:rotfl:
And finally, costs. India spent Rs 300 billion on the Arihant project, reinventing the n-submarine. Had New Delhi asked for Russian assistance in the 1970s, the Indian Navy would have acquired a boomer at least a decade or two earlier – and for a lot less.

The sticker price for the six new SSNs is projected at Rs 1 trillion. The entire world knows how the French Rafale’s cost kept increasing like an ever expanding balloon, forcing India to cut its order from 126 aircraft to just 36. India’s future nuclear submarine fleet should not face a similar fate.

SOME KEY AREAS OF RUSSIAN HELP
BrahMos: Russian technical assistance and Indian funding helped develop the world’s fastest cruise missile.
AKASH: Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia provided crucial assistance in the development of the Akash surface to air missile. The key area was helping DRDO overcome the problem with Akash’s supersonic engine.
AGNI: Technical assistance to overcome design and engineering problems in successfully launching and targeting the critically important 3,500 km Agni-3 intermediate range ballistic missile developed by DRDO.



PS:When Russia is supplying us with Akula SSGNs,assisting in our SSBN programme,<BMos,MKIs,etc.,etc.,with abso NO comparison of any JV or acquisition from the US,West,etc., I am sure that objective analysts and observers will be able to discern the truth of issues rather than the bias and bile that some unfortunately display.

Philip
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2017 18:28

And when the Arihant went out on sea trials,who was there to assist in case of any emergency,the US? :rotfl:

https://defenceupdate.in/arihant-operat ... nk-russia/
Arihant is operational, Thank you Russia
BY DEFENCEUPDATE · PUBLISHED APRIL 10, 2016
The Russian submarine salvage vessel Epron, was there in Vizag for the past seven months to assist the Arihant’s trails, Epron is specially made for underwater special expedition mission, used to search and monitor underwater activity, who can also assist the Submarines in case of any emergency. Epron almost works similar like Submarine rescue vessel, who carries ROV and other systems.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 04 Dec 2017 19:18

And there we see a perfect example of sycophancy being advocated for speculative assistance. This servile attitude is self-defeating of Indian interests. We see this ugly turf war regarding who will be or should be "allowed to sell us" future weapons. Like posted elsewhere - India needs to only look at her interests. What interests does Russia (or any other nation for that matter) have in making India more capable on the world stage?
Last edited by Vivek K on 04 Dec 2017 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Dec 2017 19:34

@Philip: Anil Kakodakar is probably 100% right on the Indianness of the Arihant reactor, for he is not asked and says nothing about the S1 !

Philip
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2017 19:46

Shaurya ,very true! But what matters most is that the relationship has produced resutls and we are building at home our own SSBNs, a great national achievement.In doing so we musn't forget help given.It is churlish and mean to forget and ignore vital assistance that made it happen and is continuing to provide assistance even today. If in the future we operate a carrier with a US EMALS system, we have to acknowledge the help given.
There is considerable Israeli help too but the least said the better. Classified matters must remain so.

"Speculative assistance"? Hilarious! Just list out the extent of Indo-Ru/Sov. mil cooperation. How did we severe Pak in '71" With Western milware and Western diplomatic support? Which country gave us insurance against both China and the US? The Nixon-Kissinger hatred of India is a common fact of history.He sent the USS Enterprise to threaten us and save Pak's bacon.Do you think that Russia is only interested in just selling its milware like any peddlar,or is there more to the relationship? Take a good historical look. There is much commonality of interest in India becoming a strong global mil. power.Just as China has supported Pak to the hilt,so too has Russia banked upon India being a sober, reliable democracy,which would in turn exert its influence and also be an (independent) counter to Chinese ambitions.The fact is that the JVs today are making India more self-reliant in defence design,dev. and production. We cannot overnight become a completely independent in-house mil power.Even the US looks to its allies for some systems.One has to view the entire scenario in a holistic manner ,not just from a narrow mil. perspective.

Today is Navy Day,let's celebrate the naval attack on Karachi once more in the IN td.

As mentioned in the above report,we failed at our attempts to develop a desi miniaturised N-sub reactor,not once but twice. We then approached Russia for help and they delivered. Had Adm. Pereira taken up the offer of an N-sub when he was navy chief,we would've been far ahead by now. But then he was cautious,preferring us to walk before we could run and build conv. subs first,as our sub experience was limited to operating 8 Foxtrots which were being outclassed by new Western conv. sub designs.We thus planned to acquire Kilos from the SU and U-boats from Germany,to have the best of both east and west in the IN.The HDW scandal derailed the progress we'd made with local U-boat construction,which also took a v.long to=ime to deliver. The good Adm. then preferred the Swedish offer,which had far more TOT on offer than the Germans (why building their U-boats took that long),but "political considerations" were in favour of the Germans and later the HDW scandal broke.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 04 Dec 2017 20:05

Again - Nations don't have friends - only interests. Russian help fell in with its geopolitics at the time. And it was compensated then and subsequently for crap weapons that killed more Indians in peace time - aka the Mig-21. And India has depots full of derelict roosi maal that cannot move because of spares etc. And in return for any cheap weapon supply, India had created a credit/escrow with billions of dollars to pay for the help.

Read history - the UK finished payments to the US for their support in WWII around 2000.

And if you're still gratified to the roosis, please apply for their Citizenship. A nation cannot be sycophantic to another because you feel indebted to them for whatever they may have done for you.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby A Deshmukh » 04 Dec 2017 20:42

Phillip Sir, you are quoting Bidwai to justify your PoV !!

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Prasad » 04 Dec 2017 20:47

Why are we having this discussion every time we talk about nuke reactors? Just move on ffs.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 04 Dec 2017 21:35

Let's not bash Russian products, nor exaggerate the extent of their assistance. They have helped India, but the quality of their military equipment has not always been first rate. But was any other country willing to transfer at least some know how to India? Probably not until those countries saw Russia doing it to a fair degree. Just a layman's observation!

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 04 Dec 2017 21:57

World Geopolitics is constantly in a state of flux. Prior to the late sixties shift India was buying British Tanks (centurions and Vijayanta), ships, and aircraft (Spitfires and other then Vampires, Gnats, Hunters - remember the 1971 war) plus French fighters (Mystere II and IV) and then the Geopolitics shifted where the US needed to reach to China through Pakistan and also the soviet occupation of Afghanistan gave them a chance to return a favor from Vietnam.

So as world geopolitics shifts, so will the interest of nations. And remember selling arms is a lucrative business for the initial sale and then for spares for 4-5 decades. Every exporting nation needs buyers that will pay back in hard currency. India has helped several roosi industries stay afloat - go back to the 100% advance of 5300 crores (Almost $2 billion) at the time for the initial Sukhois that were delayed by almost 7-10 years in delivery (with additional sums paid). Russia sees India as an easy buyer - no complications with its geopolitical sphere of influence - partly because India does not yet realize her own interests.

And remember, but for the roosi supply of engines, the JF-17 would still be on the ground. So say thank you and move on! India has work to do and Russia can remain a part of her friends. But there need to be an evolution of Indianness where India decides her course not because it owes anything to anyone but because for its growth it must chart a specific path.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Vivek K » 04 Dec 2017 22:10

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Let's not bash Russian products, nor exaggerate the extent of their assistance. ....

In the same vein, let's not bash Indian products! Friendship with Roos is good and has benefits of access to top of the line roosi tech. There are drawbacks in roosi tech which must be borne in mind and factored in during evaluations. Sycophancy with roos or any other nation is not acceptable. Gratitude for past dealings cannot be factored into future contracts. After sales from roos needs to be factored in to purchases like with any other supplier.

So overall India should continue to maintain a close relationship with roos. However there is no reason to feel indebted to purchase all defense requirements from roos. Every effort to nurture a versatile, healthy local MIC should be given biased, unfair precedence over imports.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Viv S » 05 Dec 2017 00:27

Philip wrote:Yes Viv,then our former PM was a liar too when he thanked Russia profusely for its help..Why then have several (140+) Ru technical experts been at HSL for years working on the Arihant either? They were present at the launch.And why are our IN personnel going to Russia to learn how to build an N-sub? Why can''t you stop your perverse anti-Ru attitude and accept reality.You have such an aversion to anything Russian that it has blinded your objectivism.

The Russians provided design consultancy on the ATV project. That is a well known, well acknowledged fact. That's why the Russian consultants were present at the launch and that's why they were thanked by the PM.

The Arihant's nuclear reactor, in contrast, is entirely Indian design. So when you go on about the Russians rescuing BARC after its failures, you are LYING.

Its merely one more example of you proving yourself to be liar, and then deflecting when called on it. And make no mistake commissar, people are seeing you for what you are.

Oh by the way,here's Kakokdar on the issue too.Know him?

Kakodkar has mentioned what is already common knowledge about the general design consultancy.

No Indian scientist or IN personnel will go on record as to the extent of Ru assistance.

This is them on-the-record, no Praful Bidwai & co.

Asked whether the Russians helped in designing and building the PWR, Kakodkar, Banerjee and Basu were emphatic that BARC developed it on its own. - T.S. Subramanian, The Hindu

"Everything is totally indigenous [in this PWR]…. We developed it. It is our own reactor. We did not take it from anybody else." - S. Basu, BARC

"The naval personnel had some assistance from Russia in designing the submarine, but the reactor is a totally Indian effort."- Srikumar Banerjee, BARC

PS:When Russia is supplying us with Akula SSGNs,assisting in our SSBN programme,<BMos,MKIs,etc.,etc.,with abso NO comparison of any JV or acquisition from the US,West,etc., I am sure that objective analysts and observers will be able to discern the truth of issues rather than the bias and bile that some unfortunately display.

I assure you the bile is neither for Russia, nor even for your deep and abiding love for all things Russia. Its for your habit of speaking lies and for running down indigenous efforts as part of your advocacy for the Russians.

Philip wrote:How much help we recd. from Russia is classified,but collating a string of articles and reports form that time,indicate that it helped us enough with the design,drawings,etc.,to succeed where BAARC had previously failed.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby ramana » 05 Dec 2017 00:34

Prasad wrote:Why are we having this discussion every time we talk about nuke reactors? Just move on ffs.


++ 108. At least on Navy Day.

Philip take it easy.
rest you also take it easy.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2017 11:06

Mods,Ramana,I must take it easy? I've been called a "liar"too many times by this malodorous ,disgusting,individual who is anything but a gentleman. I have posted facts where possible to support my stand.If others disagree ,they can do so politely and post their own counters supported with facts.I also do not villify those who advocate that we should buy only American,French,whatever,as being touts for those countries. If these personal attacks do not stop then BRF will end up in the gutter.

And here are some facts:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/m ... 261709.ece

Ministry of Defence looking into senior promotions in Navy
SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT NEW DELHI, DECEMBER 04, 2017 23:16 IST

Recent legal setbacks have led to a reckoning of ‘mysterious’ guidelines governing unexplained decisions

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is looking into the criteria adopted for promotions in senior ranks of the Indian Navy in the wake of a series of recent adverse judgements and complaints.

Sources said the MoD’s move comes in the wake of at least two recent judgments of the Armed Forces Tribunal (AFT) severely indicting Naval promotion methodology.

In one of the cases, the AFT, while imposing a fine of ₹5 lakh on a retired Vice Admiral for nepotism, also upheld the contention that his actions scuttled the careers of almost the entire Russia-trained engineers of India’s secretive nuclear submarine wing.

The apex court last month dismissed the Navy’s Special Leave Petition in the case involving Commander S.S. Luthra, one of the nuclear submarine engineers trained in Russia, whose career was cut short because of alleged nepotism by the retired Admiral. The court also upheld the ₹5 lakh fine imposed on the retired Vice Admiral.

More legal challenges

Even as the MOD reviews the criteria adopted for promotions, one more senior Navy officer has approached the Supreme Court, claiming that illegal actions resulted in his otherwise sterling career being scuttled.

Commodore P.K. Banerjee’s petition, filed through Advocate Prashant Bhushan, is coming up in the court on December 8. Mr. Banerjee, who led India’s first anti-piracy operation as the captain of INS Tabar in 2008, has told the SC that “very severe adverse remarks” were inserted into his ACR (annual confidential report) without communicating them to him, that too at the end of the same anti-piracy operation that was lauded within the Navy and outside.

In the AFT judgement in Mr. Banerjee’s case, the principal bench of the Delhi AFT said “the Indian Navy should have a re-look at their appraisal/moderation system.” The AFT also expressed hope that the MoD will have a re-look at the Navy’s system.

Complaint to CJI

Meanwhile, a retired senior Naval officer has complained to the Chief Justice of India (CJI), accusing the Navy of fraud in denying him promotion and of obtaining a High Court order against him almost a decade ago.

Commodore V. Ravindranathan had lost his appeal for promotion to the next rank in the Delhi High Court in 2008.
Commodore Ravindranathan has written to Chief Justice Deepak Mishra about “grave legal impropriety which has resulted in gross miscarriage of Justice to me and which would have remained under wraps had I not obtained certified copies of the entire case record from the Hon’ble High Court [of] Delhi’s record section.”

On being alerted by another officer, the retired officer dug through the documents that revealed the mysterious guidelines that govern promotion to senior Naval ranks.


PS:It is astonishing and extremely disheartening to see such deliberate acts being committed by no less than a V.Adm.,and others,whose nefarious actions have cut short the promotions and careers of the officers ,especially those who were Russian trained to operate our most vitla assets,our N-subs.In recent years the IN has come in for much criticism regarding its maintenance,ship handling skills,etc. A spate of accidents have takne place and not all can be laid at the door of the MOD/DM of the day for delayed orders of sub batteries,etc. Standards have fallen when compared to what it was in the past and it is hoped that the MOD and CNS take urgent measures to bring an end to this sorry practice,a terrible advertisement for anyone considering joining the IN as a career.

PPS:When I advocate us buying more P-8Is,C-130s,other western milware,etc.the selective amnesia of some of my critics appears! :rotfl:
They also cannot stomach the fact that so many of our successful ,cutting edge weapon systems like BMos,MKIs,etc.,have a Sov/Ru origin.I did not purchase or sign off on those deals as I've constantly maintained,it was the GOI and armed forces who did! And they may do so again! Perhaps the hilarious charge of sycophancy should be laid at tables in South Block. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2017 14:00

Old report:

India’s first nuclear sub built with Russian assistance ready for sea trials
DEC 05, 2013 ARUN MOHANTY SPECIALLY FOR RIR
The INS Arihant has already completed harbour acceptance trials, Admiral Joshi said. Source: AP

The sea trials, which would include the firing of the submarine’s nuclear-tipped K-15 ballistic missiles early next year, would be a milestone in enhancing India’s strategic deterrence capability.
The INS Arihant, India’s first nuclear powered ballistic submarine, which was under the Indian Navy’s Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project, with Russian help is ready for extensive sea trials. The submarine’s reactor attained criticality last August.
The sea trials, which would include the firing of the submarine’s nuclear-tipped K-15 ballistic missiles early next year, would be a milestone in enhancing India’s strategic deterrence capability. Indian Navy Chief Admiral D.K. Joshi said the INS Arihant’s nuclear reactor, which went critical on August 10 is currently undergoing a series of activities towards attaining 100 percent power at Vishakapatanam. This will be completed within the next few weeks and the nuclear submarine will go for sea trials. It has already completed harbour acceptance trials, Admiral Joshi said.

The ATV programme was conceived in early 1970s in the aftermath of Indo-Pak war in 1971, when the US aircraft carrier USS Enterprise was deployed in the Bay of Bengal to intimidate India, following which the Soviet Union dispatched ships armed with nuclear missiles along with nuclear submarines to the Bay to ward off the American threat. The presence of a formidable Soviet nuclear fleet in the Bay of Bengal in support of India played an important role to neutralize American designs and bring an end to the war.
Apparently, the then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi believed to be quite impressed by the Soviet nuclear powered flotilla, ordered the ATV programme. Though the programme was conceived by Mrs Gandhi, all the subsequent prime ministers of India including Rajiv Gandhi, V.P. Singh, I.K. Gujral, Atal Bihari Vajpayee and the current Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have shown considerable interest in the success of the project.
The Arihant can carry twelve K-15 class nuclear missiles. Keeping in line with India’s ‘no first use policy,’ the submarine would help in developing the country’s ‘credible second strike capability.’

The nuclear submarine not only adds to India’s strategic deterrence capability, but also reflects the saga of the country’s strategic cooperation with Russia.
Indeed, the Arihant’s design is based on the Russian Akula-1 class submarines and its 83mw pressurised water reactor has been built with significant Russian assistance. While its 100-member crew has been trained by Russian specialists, Indian scientists at Bhabha Atomic Research Centre have received significant expertise in reducing the size of the reactor to help it fit into the 10 m diameter hull of the nuclear submarine.
Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, speaking in the launching ceremony of the Arihant, had said that this represents a “great stride in the progress of our indigenous technology, capability.”
In fact nuclear cooperation constitutes one of the strong pillars of Indo-Russian strategic partnership, sealed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s first ever state visit to India in the year 2000. However, the strategic cooperation in this vital sector began much before the inking of the Delhi Declaration on Strategic Partnership. Russia is the only country that has been leasing nuclear submarines to India, reflecting the strategic nature the time-tested friendship.
The first Russian Akula-1 class nuclear submarine, christened as the INS Chakra was leased to India by the former Soviet Union for three years in 1988. The second Russian nuclear submarine was delivered on lease to India in 2012 for a period of 10 years. Currently both countries are believed to be holding talks for renting another Russian nuclear submarine to India. The Arihant’s Indian crew has been receiving training on the second INS Chakra.
Related:

India all set to lease a second nuclear submarine from Russia
Russia sees opportunities in India’s new submarine deal
Russia to modernise Akula class submarines

Though India has land-based Agni missiles and fighters like Mirage-2000 to deliver nuclear war heads, its nuclear weapons triad would be completed only when the INS Arihant successfully completes its sea trials stretched over next 12 months.
India has plans to build a few more indigenous nuclear submarines at Vadodara and Vishakapatanam However the Arihant is the technology demonstrator, as described by India’s former navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma. Russia’s contribution to developing India’s nuclear capability is commendable. The presence of the then Russian ambassador to India Vyacheslav Trubnikov and other high ranking diplomats at the launching ceremony of Arihant in July 2009 confirmed the enormous Russian contribution to the success of India’s nuclear triad project.

Arun Mohanty is Professor, School of International Studies, Jawaharlal Nehru University and director, Eurasian Foundation.

https://www.rbth.com/economics/2013/12/ ... r_se_31401

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Viv S » 05 Dec 2017 16:47

Philip wrote:Mods,Ramana,I must take it easy? I've been called a "liar"too many times by this malodorous ,disgusting,individual who is anything but a gentleman. I have posted facts where possible to support my stand.If others disagree ,they can do so politely and post their own counters supported with facts.

You've been called a liar too many because you've spoken too many lies for there to be any other conclusion. There are plenty of people that have supported acquisitions from or closer links with Russia; Austin & ShauryaT, for example. Nobody is rude to them because they will not willingly state something they know to be objectively false, let alone repeat it ad nauseum like you. With them a difference in opinion or a differing perception of facts will often lead to a productive debate. In contrast though there is no scope for debate with someone who doesn't know or care about the difference between what's true and false.

And make no mistake, others may be more polite in their response but they see the lies for what they are. In the words of someone much more gentlemanly -

Brar_w wrote:The concept is so simple to understand and has so clearly communicated to him (and is available on a gazillion sources on the net) that it cannot be due to idiocy. Simply put, he continues to LIE when it comes to this but then he does so knowing that it's ok... Best to ignore and move on as I have learnt.

Cybaru wrote:Brar giving up?? :) Must have reached lowest of lowest bottom. He is extremely patient!

Brar_w wrote:If someone continues to push demonstrably false information and blatantly lie repeatedly, what else can one do? If he/she think its ok and the community is fine with it then who am I to question it.

Philip
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2017 17:58

I will not respond to your posts in future as you display all the hallmarks of a crude uncivilised lout,who would not recognise the truth even if it was spoonfed to him.Mods,please clear the decks of this species please for the sale of cleanliness on BRF.If those who disagree can't do so in a civilised and respectful manner displaying the etiquette required on social media then BRF will end up not in the gutter but in the sewer.

Thomas Paine said,“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.

Karthik S
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Karthik S » 05 Dec 2017 18:17

Does having double hull help in making a sub silent? I thought it's used only to increase the strength of the hull.

Philip
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2017 18:33

It makes a huge difference as both inner sides can be acoustically treated.In addition,a lot of eqpt. can also be placed between the two hulls,it gives greater buoyancy.Ru designers prefer it to single hulls,but the US builders like their SH designs.For smaller conventional boats ,SHs are generally used barring the Kilo and its Chin clones.It may be one explanation why kilos are so hard to detect despite the design being 3 decades old.

sudeepj
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby sudeepj » 05 Dec 2017 22:58

Philip is not a liar because its likely he sincerely believes in what he posts, but its a bit much to see all threads cluttered by his Rus pujan. Frequently, the posts are garbage informed by the Russian propaganda machine. Its fairly harmless but irritating. If there was an option to not see a particular posters posts at all, this would not be a problem at all.

Cybaru
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Cybaru » 05 Dec 2017 23:06

Yes there is sudeepj. Add to ignore list. I did that a long time ago! :lol:

Jayram
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby Jayram » 06 Dec 2017 01:28

We may have gotten Russian consultancy initially (and why not?) while designing the first version of the nuclear reactor but signs are pointing to us be more than competent in this field ourselves. For proof look at the next submarine Aridhaman being required to have a higher power output than the Arihant and BARC scientists able to meet that requirement without obvious delay or help from Russia. That shows ownership and complete control of our thing whether it be the LCA or a Submarine Nuclear Reactor.

nachiket
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2017 01:44

sudeepj wrote:Philip is not a liar because its likely he sincerely believes in what he posts, but its a bit much to see all threads cluttered by his Rus pujan. Frequently, the posts are garbage informed by the Russian propaganda machine. Its fairly harmless but irritating. If there was an option to not see a particular posters posts at all, this would not be a problem at all.

Sudeep, go to a user's profile and select "Add Foe". That will put them on your ignore list and you won't see their posts any longer.

Viv S and Philip, may I suggest you two follow the same advice?


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