Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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kit
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Karan M wrote:The IN plan will result in us becoming a tech powerhouse with the most crucial capability inhouse. A 190 MWth reactor is no joke. It would open up a range of possibilities for us. Arihant is currently at half that, at 83 MWth. We can expect cooperation with the French on many crucial aspects of this submarine class. I hope IN also pushes DRDO to develop cutting edge sonars, countermeasures, combat systems for this class, given we have a decade before they enter the water.
Indeed and with the pump jet tech and likely non hull penetrating optronic mast sensors will definitely make it one of the stealthiest equal to latest gen western subs
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by V_Raman »

2-3 arihant class boomers - cutting edge AIP subs - bases to dock from andamans to mauritius - it will be a formidable naval force in a decade.

if we get SSNs on top of this - phew...

190MW can be used to power land grids as well IMO. Such a vast coastline makes it amenable to put many such reactors for key infra/industries - we are a sea locked country after all :wink:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by nachiket »

Why do we need a 190 MWth reactor for a 6000t submarine? The OK-650 reactor in the Akula is rated at 190 MWth but the Akula displaces over 12000 tonnes.
kit
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

nachiket wrote:Why do we need a 190 MWth reactor for a 6000t submarine? The OK-650 reactor in the Akula is rated at 190 MWth but the Akula displaces over 12000 tonnes.
a future nuclear aircraft carrier ., a couple of them could easily power a 100k ton carrier
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by nachiket »

Sure, but is it ideal for a submarine displacing 6000t? Not to mention that it will be that much more difficult to miniaturize it enough to fit in that space.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by yensoy »

My understanding is that SSN moves a lot faster than SSBN so needs the extra power though it may displace less. Moving at 55kmph through a viscous fluid while powering up all sorts of secondary equipment including apparatus for oxygen generation takes a lot of power.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Philip »

Yes,the expert committee came to the same conclusions that BRF held a decade ago! I posted recently the stats from WW2 of how many assets were reqd. to prosecute just one U-boat,that too after breaking the German code,and the RN's similar experience in the Falklands. We too took supposedly not too long ago 21 days to find one"missing" PN sub.

However, the N-sub inventory apart, we need to have a few dozens of conv./ AIP subs for defending our coastline ,islands and the littorals, and dominating the IOR allowing our long endurance SSNs/ SSGNs to operate freely in the ICS and other oceans. If logistic base facilities are also set up in the ANC, including sub pens, etc.we could forward base even our Conv. AIP subs in the future which could also operate in the ICS.Logistic agreements with Vietnam,S'pore and the Phillippines would give us a potential for a permanent UW presence where it matters.

A more powerful N- reactor is reqd. for the larger follow- on SSBNs .The same reactor ,or a modified version, would give the smaller SSN greater speed, etc. The hull section of the reactor would be larger,but a full displacement of 8000t would be ideal allowing between 30 to 40 weapons to be carried.The RuN is building a new class of SSN smaller than the Yasen or Akula,around 8,000+t. The same hull/ design would provide two variants,one for SSBNs, one for SSNs.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by souravB »

Karan M wrote:I hope IN also pushes DRDO to develop cutting edge sonars, countermeasures, combat systems for this class, given we have a decade before they enter the water.
An Integrated Electric Propulsion where the reactor produce electricity for the permanent magnet motor in the pumpjet for propulsion would be THE holy grail of propulsion. Eliminating the need for shafts & gears altogether.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Manish_P »

Sourav ji, Noob request. Can you please elaborate on the above (with a visual diagram if possible) or point to a reference material. i seek to understand the challenges that prevent the elimination of the gears and shafts.

Edit -Are you referring to rim-driven (thereby shaft-less) thrusters?

Image

Like these said to be in development China’s new submarine engine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare

Or something different entirely ?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 18944?s=20 ---> Report: Despite senior bureaucrats questioning the need for 6 nuclear attack submarines (SSNs) using the excuse of an "economic crisis", the CCS is set to give clearance to Indian Navy's SSN program (P-76).
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

The tweet below is from Captain DK Sharma, former PRO Indian Navy in a tweet to Sandeep Unnithan.

https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/1383 ... 72289?s=20 ---> There are only two types of vessels at sea, submarines and targets. Well said Sandy.

Image
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by souravB »

Manish_P wrote: Edit -Are you referring to rim-driven (thereby shaft-less) thrusters?
Yes. Thank you Manish ji. This is what I meant. One piece of the puzzle.
This paper is one of the studies done by USN of different enabling technologies towards achieving this. It lists the constraints.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Manish_P »

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Although I am from a non-engineering background, i am very interested in mech stuff. So I think I have some good amount of reading (viewing) to do now, hopefully not all of it will be too technical.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

Admin note: no one-liner political comments and cliches that add zero value
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Aditya_V »

Modi can change 70 years system of Bauracrats over night, he has to work with those in the system.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

Sandeep Unnithan's article makes for painful reading. MoD, MoF & the Navy's own submarine-reluctance have precipitated a crisis which, best case scenario, will start to get addressed a decade from now. By the time our 1st SSN rolls out, China will have 15 of them
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Cain Marko »

Newbie pooch - and apologies if this is not the best thread - adminullah's feel free to move it elsewhere. So, I have been pondering over this well accepted theory - if there is a newkiller conflagration, even a smallish one, say between TSP and Desh, the whole world will suffer as a result. Case in point, refer to article from Nature where the following excerpt is cited:
That horrifying scenario is just the beginning. Smoke from the incinerated cities rises high into the atmosphere, wrapping the planet in a blanket of soot that blocks the Sun’s rays. The planet plunges into a deep chill. For years, crops wither from California to China. Famine sets in around the globe.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00794-y

So 250 nukes (max) go off and we have above worldwide catastrophe. BIG question in my mind is - how come this did not happen when the US, Soviets and Brits (and French/Chinese) blew up tons of nukes in atmospheric tests? 500+ if we are to believe ...
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

Was it because the payloads/size were much smaller in tests?

The Tsar bomba certainly wasn't a smallish firecracker. Take a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJhZ3i-HXS0
But the real catch is @ 26:26 - it seems the very center of the testing site showed negligible radioactivity - :shock:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by chetonzz »

Cain Marko wrote:Newbie pooch - and apologies if this is not the best thread - adminullah's feel free to move it elsewhere. So, I have been pondering over this well accepted theory - if there is a newkiller conflagration, even a smallish one, say between TSP and Desh, the whole world will suffer as a result. Case in point, refer to article from Nature where the following excerpt is cited:
That horrifying scenario is just the beginning. Smoke from the incinerated cities rises high into the atmosphere, wrapping the planet in a blanket of soot that blocks the Sun’s rays. The planet plunges into a deep chill. For years, crops wither from California to China. Famine sets in around the globe.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00794-y

So 250 nukes (max) go off and we have above worldwide catastrophe. BIG question in my mind is - how come this did not happen when the US, Soviets and Brits (and French/Chinese) blew up tons of nukes in atmospheric tests? 500+ if we are to believe ...
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally

Was it because the payloads/size were much smaller in tests?

The Tsar bomba certainly wasn't a smallish firecracker. Take a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJhZ3i-HXS0
But the real catch is @ 26:26 - it seems the very center of the testing site showed negligible radioactivity - :shock:
there was no nuclear winter in 20th century, because all those nuclear tests were not done at the same time...they were well spread out in both time(years) and space

for nuclear winter, not sure how many megaton bombs are needed at minimum
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Manish_P »

Also not all of them were above ground air burst type. Quite a few, in fact most of them(after the mid sixties IIRC) were of the under-ground and under-water type.

Not pasting the image here as it is a large image (and topic is OT anyway) but here is the link to a good image on WSJ site (by country, year and type)
Last edited by Manish_P on 22 Apr 2021 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Yagnasri »

Plus both the USSR and the US are not lead by nut cases and both sides kept MAD in mind before doing anything stupid. They played the game with some ground rules and kept in touch with each other.

Today the pakis and Turks are looking forward to the end of the world to go to Jannath faster.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Cain Marko »

Thank you yagnasari, Manish, and cheton for your indulgence. But none of these truly answer the question. To your points I would simply point to the fact the tsar bomba in a single explosion had a field of 50mt. The yield of that single weapon is greater than the total yield of all 300 indian and tsp nukes, ranging from 12-40kt each, put together. Note that this weapon was used at one single point in time. There were many other high yield weapons tested. Altogether 530 tests above ground.

Frankly that large number along with the massive yields that went with those tests really belie the assumption that the jehadi nutters in tsp are any worse than the men in white suits in the fsu or the usa..
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Manish_P »

..But none of these truly answer the question
<OT> Because it is an extremely complex question which would require modeling on super computers.. and even then we would get.. models :)

An alternate way of research, purely for very very rough comparisons, would be to look up the geo-climatic effects of super massive volcanic eruptions (VEI Scale 6 and above). Both the types as recorded (by humans) super eruptions like Tambora, Krakatoa etc. And the pre-historic ones like the Yellowstone, Lake Toba etc. Again there, the best we would get would be estimates..</OT>
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by nachiket »

The Tsar Bomba was never operationalized. It was impractically large (it weighed 27 tonnes!) and nearly took out the launching Tu-95 when it was tested. This was just the Soviets going for the record for "shawkinaw" purposes as Singha ji might have put it.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Cain Marko »

nachiket wrote:The Tsar Bomba was never operationalized. It was impractically large (it weighed 27 tonnes!) and nearly took out the launching Tu-95 when it was tested. This was just the Soviets going for the record for "shawkinaw" purposes as Singha ji might have put it.
Agreed Nachiket. The tsar bomba was indeed all that you say. But the question thats bothering me is how come these two soopah powers and other "civilized" p5 powers blew up all kinds of phatakda and it didn't cause any nuclear winter.

Can't believe that sdre and djinn nukes have some unique power to do this
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:The Tsar Bomba was never operationalized. It was impractically large (it weighed 27 tonnes!) and nearly took out the launching Tu-95 when it was tested. This was just the Soviets going for the record for "shawkinaw" purposes as Singha ji might have put it.
Agreed Nachiket. The tsar bomba was indeed all that you say. But the question thats bothering me is how come these two soopah powers and other "civilized" p5 powers blew up all kinds of phatakda and it didn't cause any nuclear winter. Can't believe that sdre and djinn nukes have some unique power to do this

Dont think those tests were in quick succession ?!... in a war you bet everything worth firing would be brought upon .. ( Putin has been talking about red lines., the Russians would have much less to lose compared to the west in an all out strike

The nuclear winter scenario assumes that 100 or more city firestorms are ignited by nuclear explosions, and that the firestorms lift large amounts of sooty smoke into the upper troposphere and lower stratosphere by the movement offered by the pyrocumulonimbus clouds that form during a firestorm.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SNaik »

S 72 Chakra is passing Malakka Straits en route to Vladivostok.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by wig »

Indian Navy’s lone nuclear attack submarine heading back to Russia, next one to take five years
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 229253.cms

from the article it is heading back at then end of the lease and had hardly been sailing in the last two years as age related issues have plagued it
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Vips »

wig wrote:Indian Navy’s lone nuclear attack submarine heading back to Russia, next one to take five years
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 229253.cms

from the article it is heading back at then end of the lease and had hardly been sailing in the last two years as age related issues have plagued it
Another Lemon - Why am i not surprised? :lol:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Until an agreement is signed, no boat will commence repair & refit. When was the agreement signed? Do we know? That article is full of hot air and classic DDM. Shipyards are in the business of making money. It is not Mother Theresa's home for the Aged & Downtrodden.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by titash »

Vips wrote:
wig wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 229253.cms

Indian Navy’s lone nuclear attack submarine heading back to Russia, next one to take five years

from the article it is heading back at then end of the lease and had hardly been sailing in the last two years as age related issues have plagued it
Another Lemon - Why am i not surprised? :lol:
100% Agree Rakesh

Vips-ji…the equipment itself performed perfectly when it was acquired back in 2012 and acquitted itself well. Like any car, it needs maintenance at a suitable garage, without which it’s going to stay in the parking lot. It’s a one-off leased vehicle with no neighborhood garages that can service it. So why all this ‘lemon’ talk?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Vips »

Sirji, we operated the charlie-I for the full 10 years duration with less equipped docks and it was functional for the full duration. But for Charlie-II we paid a couple of Billion $ in advance for the lease so it could be refurbished for service in India. Maintenance requirement is one thing but straight out not being available for 2 years. :shock:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Vips wrote:But for Charlie-II we paid a couple of Billion $ in advance for the lease so it could be refurbished for service in India. Maintenance requirement is one thing but straight out not being available for 2 years. :shock:
That is not true Vips. Please show me your source for your above claim.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Vips, I have met the author of the India Today article. He is reputable and is a damn good defence journalist. But asking is NOT equal to giving. Just because the Russians ask for X amount of dollars....that does not mean India is going to pay that X amount of dollars. But let us assume that the figures given by the India Today article is what India will pay. Couple of points to note in that;

1) What actually is coming in that $2.5 billion will always remain a mystery to most people and that is the way it should be. There is propriety technology on board and the Russians have a responsibility - to their own security - that it remains unknown to the enemy and to the average citizen. The same is true for the Indian side as well. The fact that Ajit Doval's office is leading the Indian side should give everyone a moment of pause. He is after all India's National Security Advisor. One is only limited by their imagination as to what Ajit Doval is asking for (in consultation with the Navy of course).

2) This new boat will be vastly different from the current one in terms of capability. Again, much of it will be a mystery as it should be. In the words of a former DCNS, Indian Navy ----> "The Navies of the world do not talk about their submarines." But with increased capability, comes increased cost. There is no way around that. Not fair to compare the cost of INS Chakra-II with INS Chakra-III.

3) The Russians are definitely trying to make money off this deal, like any other nation would. No harm in that. But again, asking is not equal to giving. The Russians can ask for anything. It is for Indian side to negotiate a fair price for the capability that is coming. I have full faith that Ajit Doval's office will negotiate a fair price. Unfortunately that is not the way it will be reported in the media. Our DDM will always do rona-dhona onlee, so no surprise there. Want precision strike capability for the cost of a WW2 fighter. Not going to happen.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by wig »

Explosion forced Indian Navy to return nuclear submarine to Russia?
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... o%20Russia.

Explosion forced Indian Navy to return nuclear submarine to Russia?The INS Chakra was inducted into the Indian Navy in 2012 on a ten-year lease

extracts
On Wednesday, Russian state news agency TASS reported the early return of the INS Chakra was necessitated due to an explosion on board the vessel in the spring of 2020, which damaged both its hulls. The Chakra, like many other Russian-designed submarines of its era, is a 'double-hulled' submarine, with a pressure inner hull and a lighter outer hull to allow for more buoyancy and capacity to absorb damage in the event of being hit by a torpedo or mine.

The Russian language website of TASS quoted a source in the Russian "military-industrial complex" as saying, "The explosion of a high-pressure air cylinder on the Chakra submarine... occurred in the spring of 2020." The report claimed the high-pressure air cylinder was located between the two hulls. In addition to damage to the hulls, the explosion also damaged "electronic weapons and hydro-acoustic equipment".

The TASS report claimed "after the emergency, Indian technical specialists completed the repair of both hulls of the submarine," following which it was sent to Russia.

The report did not specify what type of air cylinder was involved in the accident. The Akula class of submarines, like nearly all underwater vessels, has ballast tanks that are filled with water to enable the submarine to dive. High-pressure air is released into such tanks to remove the water and enable the submarine to rise.

NDTV had reported last week the "early return of the submarine became necessary because of her 'increasingly unreliable powerplant and maintenance issues' besides the overall condition of the vessel, which was extensively used by the Indian Navy to train crews on advanced nuclear submarines".

Previous accidents

In October 2017, reports emerged that the front portion of the INS Chakra had been damaged when the vessel was entering Visakhapatnam harbour. The accident had damaged the ship's sonar dome, severely limiting its capability to detect enemy threats on the surface and underwater. The Hindu had reported Russia sought $20 million to repair the vessel, which had to be dry-docked.

The most serious accident that involved what would be the future INS Chakra happened in 2008. The Nerpa was undergoing sea trials when 20 Russian crewmembers died and another 21 were injured when the fire-extinguishing system on board was activated accidentally, leading to release of toxic freon gas. The accident delayed plans to hand over the vessel to the Indian Navy in 2008.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by LakshmanPST »

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/f ... in%20India

In a major boost to the government's bid to indigenise the defence sector, the first three nuclear attack submarines planned to be built by the Indian Navy would be 95 per cent made in India.

The Cabinet Committee on Security is considering the Navy proposal worth over Rs 50,000 crore for indigenously building three nuclear attack submarines which would be built by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in Visakhapatnam.
In a separate project, Arihant class nuclear-powered submarines are being built with the capability of launching ballistic missiles.

“The nuclear attack submarine project would be a big boost for the indigenous submarine capability as 95 per cent of it would be made in India. This would provide a big boost to the domestic defence sector including both private and public sector,” a top government source told India Today TV.

The project would also be very helpful for the economy as it is expected to generate a large number of jobs in the defence sector, sources said. The Navy and DRDO would first get a clearance for three of these boats and will have the option of building three more after the completion of this project.

The Indian Navy proposal to have six indigenous nuclear attack submarines was one of the first few major defence modernisation proposals to have been cleared by the Narendra Modi government soon after it came to power in 2014.

Despite some delays, India has been making big headways in the field of indigenous submarine building capability. The first Arihant class boat was commissioned a few years ago and the second one INS Arighat is also undergoing sea trials and is expected to be commissioned in near future.

India has plans to build 24 submarines, including six with nuclear attack capabilities, which would give it long legs to operate in the Indian Ocean region and will help it to keep its adversaries in check at long distances.

The first six conventional boats are already under construction in Mumbai under the Kalavati class project while the tender for the next six with greater capability would be issued soon after recent clearance by the Defence Ministry. There is a plan to build six more conventional submarines under Project 76 but it will take a long time to be initiated.

India is also leasing nuclear attack submarines since the 1990s which have helped it remain current on the operations of such boats.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by rahulm »

Op-Ed: Australian roadmap for nuclear submarine acquisition
France recently announced it had reached agreement with India to develop six nuclear attack submarines (SSN) for the Indian Navy.

This follows Indian experience with the leasing of an Alfa Class SSN from Russia and the indigenous development of nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines of the Arihant (SSBN-80) Class.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Please use this thread to post about Indian Nuclear Submarines - both foreign and domestic. Moved a bunch of posts from other threads.

Thank You for your co-operation.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by VKumar »

One nuclear submarine per year till we have 20.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by chetak »

VKumar wrote:One nuclear submarine per year till we have 20.
aren't the pakis still eating grass, just like their uncle bhutto promised them

He was the glib talking to the gullible and rhetoric was the only weapon in his hand.

Sochta hoon keh woh kitne masoom the, kya se kya ho gaye, dekhte dekhte.
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