Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Nov 2015 10:30

"Procurers" a more parliamentary word perhaps? Anyway,we on BRF aren't the buyers or decision makers. These are the services,MOD and GOI.We can only comment upon what is happening and shed our interpretation and views on the same. And in any democracy thereare bound to be differing viewpoints.Like it or lump it!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Nov 2015 16:59

** W A R N I N G **

This is Arihant thread.

I will summarily delete all unconnected posts.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Nov 2015 16:40

Great news/ Arihant fires successfully its first missile

India's first indigenously-developed nuclear-powered nuclear attack submarine, Arihant, has successfully test fired a dummy or unarmed missile, reliable sources said.

The vital first test in ejecting a missile from its onboard silos was conducted on Wednesday, proverbially adding a feather to the cap of the Indian Navy and scientists from DRDO and BARC, the sources said. The firing was done remotely from a far away location by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), India's nuclear command authority which is tasked with creating nuclear deterrence.

To mention more achievements, the submarine has also successfully completed its critical diving tests, and significantly, met nearly all its design and designated parameters just about 100 percent, including the maximum possible power option tests.

It is actually good news all over, but the final step before the submarine is formally inducted in the Indian Navy as INS Arihant, will be the firing of proper missiles - albeit with unarmed warheads. Details are unavailable but this should happen soon enough as there are indications of the submarine taking part in the International Fleet Review (IFR) being hosted by the navy in February, 2016.

The boat should be operational by then.

Notably, only operational ships and submarines can take part in an IFR.

The missile fired was a dummy version of DRDO's B 5, which approximately has a range of 800 km to 1,000 km. Later, missiles with a reach of 3,500 km to 4,000 km are likely to be inducted onboard.

Indications of Arihant's journey have been coming out for some time, and recently, the Indian Navy chief, Admiral Robin Dhowan, mentioned the possibility of its inclusion in the IFR although he did not understandably commit anything.

The tests are done one-by-one and for a nuclear boat, every single check is critical.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Nov 2015 16:58

Great news!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Nov 2015 17:02

3 cheers! Did the report say that it was fired from underwater?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Nov 2015 17:05

Philip wrote:3 cheers! Did the report say that it was fired from underwater?

Would you risk the ejector to fall back on the sub if it was on surface?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 26 Nov 2015 21:18

Was this just to test ejection mechanism only? Or complete missile test

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 27 Nov 2015 00:06

SSridhar wrote:Great news/ Arihant fires successfully its first missile
India's first indigenously-developed nuclear-powered nuclear attack submarine, Arihant, has successfully test fired a dummy or unarmed missile, reliable sources said.

On Auspicious Gurpurab Day, Great news .

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Nov 2015 05:01

Nitesh wrote:Was this just to test ejection mechanism only? Or complete missile test

We will never know, i guess ( till someone reports 1 year later about how 5-6 missile tests were already completed).

Of course, its a complete coincidence that it is reported on same day when there were a flurry of Prithvi-II and Dhanush tests!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Nov 2015 05:44

Yay! Jilebi time.

That was a B5. K4 to follow

Also, note the Russians were thanked in that article with a special mention on BARC - highly appreciated for installing and managing the reactor.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2015 05:54

Nitesh wrote:Was this just to test ejection mechanism only? Or complete missile test

Once it is ejected safely the sub has no control and it is up to the missile to perform. So getting the ejection right is all that is required of the submarine.

I can't help it but I can see an analogy here between this and doing one's morning business into Pakistan. Ejection is the job of the launcher. The launched stuff has to do its dirty work in Pakistan

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 27 Nov 2015 06:14

Are the missiles launched while the submarine is on the move or stationary?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Nov 2015 06:25

on the move usually at a low speed. search for operation begemot video on YouTube. after each launch the sub has to be balanced swiftly as water fills the tube and its lighter than the missile weight that got deleted.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Nov 2015 06:54

would the Ks be integrated with the chakras as well?

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aren't these tubes already prefilled with water?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Nov 2015 07:02

No. it has no tubes for the same.

good graphics here for operation begemot-2. they do the doomsday thing rather well...with sinister backing music. typical fat and bearish...kick them all you want but their thick fur absorbs the blows and once they stand up and start swiping those 6" claws , can inflict a lot of pain

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 27 Nov 2015 09:17

shiv wrote:
Nitesh wrote:Was this just to test ejection mechanism only? Or complete missile test
I can't help it but I can see an analogy here between this and doing one's morning business into Pakistan. Ejection is the job of the launcher. The launched stuff has to do its dirty work in Pakistan

The pressure to launch into Pakistan can be in twists and turns.
Twists == hydraulic or pneumatic force get to surface of water and then ignite
Turns == of a propeller on a tarpedo to get it to surface of water and then ignite

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Nov 2015 09:25

The firing was done remotely from a far away location by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), India's nuclear command authority which is tasked with creating nuclear deterrence.

Given that the SFC was involved means a missile ( even if with a dummy warhead) was involved?

Or is the SFC involved in all steps of Arihant tests?

partha · Post by **partha** » 27 Nov 2015 12:16

sum wrote:
The firing was done remotely from a far away location by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), India's nuclear command authority which is tasked with creating nuclear deterrence.
Given that the SFC was involved means a missile ( even if with a dummy warhead) was involved?

Or is the SFC involved in all steps of Arihant tests?

As the report says it was either a dummy or unarmed missile. My guess is it was unarmed missile since the report also states submarine will have to be inducted before Feb 2016 for it to participate in IFR.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Nov 2015 13:03

The report is not clear if ELF communication was involved between the SFC unit on the sub and the SFC HQ somewhere on the land which authorized the firing. Or, it was all just predetermined.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Nov 2015 13:26

I do not think there will be many details in the public domain about this. That is in fact not actually required but reasonable. We are also not getting any reports on teh status about stage of making of other boats also. We mango men will only know that there is one nuke sub and others are under making etc etc. Rest of it all speculation unless there is any official statement which many times will be a lie to hide the real facts.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Nov 2015 18:36

this US navy documentary although published a year ago, but is definitely not compiled a year ago. it is an old doc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak13p_QAg3g

there are some interesting and relevant points here.. it takes 18 min of video to see some latest gizmos. virginia class simulator.
nice TFTA's on training exercises for ER.

and nice to also see the breaking down russkie typhoon/ akula sub. check how they handle to remove the reactor rods and further processing of the nuke waste.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak13p_QAg3g

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Nov 2015 11:15

Arihant successfully test fires dummy missile

India’s first nuclear attack submarine should be operational soon

New Delhi. India’s first nuclear powered nuclear attack submarine, Arihant, has successfully test fired a dummy missile.

According to reliable sources, the vital first test in ejecting a missile from its onboard silos was conducted November 25. Proverbially, adding a feather to the cap of the Indian Navy and scientists from DRDO and BARC, the firing was done remotely from a far away location by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), India’s nuclear command authority which is tasked with creating nuclear deterrence.

To mention more achievements, the indigenous submarine has also successfully completed the critical diving tests, and significantly, met nearly all its design and designated parameters just about 100 per cent, including the maximum possible power option tests.

It is actually good news all over, but the last one final step before the submarine is inducted as INS Arihant formally in the Indian Navy will be the firing of proper missiles albeit with unarmed warheads. Details are unavailable but this should happen soon enough as there are indications of the submarine taking part in the International Fleet Review (IFR) being held by the Navy in February.

The boat should be operational by then, sources told India Strategic.

The missile fired was a dummy version of DRDO’s B 5, which approximately has a range of 1000 km. Later, missiles with a reach of 3500 to 4000 km, are likely to be inducted onboard.

India plans to build some half a dozen Arihant class, in line with the country’s nuclear doctrine which calls for No First Use but Massive Retaliation if attacked.

Arihant is built with Russian designs, but this will be the country’s first nuclear powered nuclear attack submarine, classified in international naval lingo as SSBN.

India has one more nuclear powered submarine, INS Chakra, leased from Russia, but that cannot fire nuclear missiles. The classification for such boats is SSN.

Like any submarine, both INS Arihant and INS Chakra are pearl shaped to accommodate the vertically launched missiles, and designed to move faster underwater than on the surface. They can stay deep in the darkness of the oceans for months, the only restrictions being the limits on human tolerance and availability of nuclear fuel.

It may be recalled that the project for nuclear submarines was sanctioned soon after the 1974 nuclear test by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi but it suffered when Morarji Desai and VP Singh took over as Prime Ministers in the coming years. In 1983, Mrs Gandhi pushed the project once again with required funds, but it was in 1998, when India conducted the second round of nuclear tests, that Prime Minister AB Vajpayee sanctioned the project afresh, and a decision was also taken to involve the private sector. Larsen & Toubro, India’s premier engineering construction company, was involved right from then onwards.

L&T, as it is known, has done commendable work in gradually and systematically building a horizontal supply-chain base and meeting the DRDO and naval specifications.

DRDO, or Defence Research and Development Organisation, has been in-charge of the India’s missile systems programmes throughout, which it has delivered with distinction. Nuclear propulsion systems have been installed and managed by experts from BARC, or Bhabha Atomic Research Centre.

Indications of Arihant’s journey have been coming out for some time, and recently, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Robin Dhowan mentioned the possibility of its inclusion in the IFR in rather positive terms although he did not understandably commit.
The tests are done one by one, and for a nuclear boat, every single check is critical. Deployment has to be thoughtfully and carefully, even if it takes time as safety and success are both paramount.

Notably, in IFR, only operational ships and submarines can and will take part.
The India Strategic extends Best Wishes to the Indian Navy, DRDO and BARC scientists.

© India Strategic

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2015 18:53

What was proofed is underwater launch (UWL) system. Next would be actual launch of a missile and its functioning.
UWL is quite classified in other countries. So no need to go into excruciating details for Arihant.

They need to launch a series of missiles to check missile and sub interactions: shallow and deep water, sub moving away and towards launch point and any scenario that Navy needs to proof for SFC.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Nov 2015 19:05

Singha wrote:No. it has no tubes for the same.

thoda konphoosan saar.

INS Arihant likely to be commissioned in Feb
The pride vessel Arihant has four vertical launch tubes, which can carry 12 (three per launch tube) smaller K-15 missiles or four r larger K-4 missiles. The K-4 has a longer range of 3,500 km which was put into trials recently.By:KMP Patnaik

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also, I was assuming LA class design
http://navyarm.blogspot.com/2014/11/los ... s-ssn.html

these tubes go all the way from the top hatch to bottom hull perhaps to release the launch pressure in the bottom. some of the RC subs do show this by demonstration [check this superbly done jootube/virginia class model]. It may not be the case for Arihant design, but it make sense to keep the whole launch tubes as a system being hermetically sealed from the rest of the sub. during launch, it would be easier by design to dispense the displaced water pressure underneath, and reduced shock/vibrations for the sub.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 29 Nov 2015 19:17

Sir, a Indian kilo class anhiliated US nuclear attack Submarine in Malabar exercises. Within it a Retd. Naval officer Said nuclear Submarine Creats More vibration. And it was detected Using Indian made Sonar
Link to the complete article
http://www.defencenews.in/article/BREAK ... marine-931

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Nov 2015 19:26

nice.. may be they come with the virginia class next time!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Dec 2015 09:22

Karan, I see further disinformation & obfuscation from you. My work & family commitments do not give me adequate time to post, but rest assured, I will respond on this.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Dec 2015 09:53

Posted earlier?

Since its Mr.Rout, insider DRDO info will be present:

First Ejection Test of Underwater Missile From Arihant Submarine Successful

Defence sources claimed the test carried out on Wednesday was successful and the parameters set for the mission were met. The missile used for the test was a dummy of 750-km range undersea missile, code-named B-05. The weapon with a dummy payload was reportedly launched from the submarine in full operational configuration.

The user associate launch was conducted by the personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) in association with the DRDO. The missile was fired from 20-meter deep. The nuclear reactor on board the INS Arihant was activated in August 2013.

A defence official said after going through the power-up cycle and harbour acceptance tests for over two years the indigenously built first nuclear powered submarine of the country was ready for actual sea trials. “As part of its long awaited sea trial, the B-05 missile was fired to reconfirm the submarine’s ejection capability. The result in the first attempt was quite satisfactory,” he said.

The nuclear submarine will be inducted in the navy after two/three more such trials in next couple of years. Once inducted, it will help India complete its nuclear triad, giving it the capability to respond to nuclear strikes from sea, land and air-based systems.

The 111-metre-long, 15-meter tall and 11-metre broad INS Arihant has four vertical launch tubes, which are capable of carrying 6 torpedoes of 533 mm and 12 B-05 (K-15) missiles or 4 K-4 missiles. Having a 100-member crew, the advanced vessel is powered by an 83 MW pressurised light-water reactor with enriched uranium fuel.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2015 15:00

So it was a shallow water ejection. 20 m is slightly deeper than periscope depth. Most likely one more deep water ejection before actual test firing will be done. Is the 100 crew split into two shifts for 24X7 coverage?

The bit about SFC means a whole lot more than ejection was tested. More like signal stream from SFC to sub was exercised.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Dec 2015 15:22

^^^

50m is max depth for SLBM launch. There will likely be few more launches from various depths up to 50m. Live/dummy warheads in single and ripple fire modes.

Wiki - SLBM

...
modern vessels typically launch while submerged at keel depths of usually less than 50 meters (164 feet).
...

Wondering if it's possible to fire when on surface? That maybe a scenario when a submarine is damaged and can't dive.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Dec 2015 15:51

Mango question.

Just 6 torpedoes? Is it 6 tubes? I thought there would be more torpedoes in any sub.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2015 16:14

Its a SSBN and carries 12 missiles - 3 pack in 4 tubes.
Six torpedoes is just a bonus.

I don't think they are in the VL tubes!

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Dec 2015 19:47

Generally there are ready to fire torpedo tubes & then there are reloading tubes to launch either torpedo or missile.

out of the six tubes , four maybe ready to launch torpedo tubes to defend against enemy SSK/SSN.

the rest 2 tubes maybe reload capable to launch variety of missile like Nirbhay/Klub/BramhosM(???)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2015 19:51

tsarkar wrote:Karan, I see further disinformation & obfuscation from you. My work & family commitments do not give me adequate time to post, but rest assured, I will respond on this.

Guess what, we all have commitments. And I see despite all the efforts, you can't be bothered to respond in a civil fashion. If you can't hold a debate wherein you respond politely & don't engage with such crude language (disinformation and obfuscation etc etc), its very hard to take your responses seriously.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Dec 2015 19:57

Yagnasri wrote:Mango question.

Just 6 torpedoes? Is it 6 tubes? I thought there would be more torpedoes in any sub.

Torpedoes and Missiles are stored behind the torpedo tubes. Depending on the size of the submarine, the forward weapons bay stores anywhere between 12 to 40 torpedo/missile/decoy combination. While the number of torpedo tubes varies in different designs from 4 to 8 tubes but all will have mechanisms that select (in limited fashion) and load torpedo/missile/decoy into each of the tubes.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Dec 2015 20:17

^^
6 TT and 18 torpedoes & Klub missiles. To keep the design simple, the torpedo fit is the same as Type 877EKM.

4 VLS for K4 missiles or 12 VLS for K-15/Brahmos/Nirbhay or a mix of some or all of them.

Max load of 18+12=30 weapons. Its one of the few ships that can fire most missiles in IN inventory.

Compare Sum's cutaway with the bow here http://www.jeffhead.com/ins/ins-arihant-ssbn.jpg. Up to the sail, the design is nearly identical. Behind the sail, instead of diesels, there are missile tubes followed by the reactor & turbines. Moving the fins to the sail has ensured smooth blending of the casing with the hull.

This is what simple design philosophy is all about. Reusing known & proven components & segments instead of reinventing from scratch.

Zee 24 hours (Marathi) channel had the correct footage http://i.imgur.com/6dwlnHE.png, but for some reason its not popular on the internet, and incorrect drawings and images propagate.

@Karan, your posts started the personal attacks. You are quite vicious on occasions, and become an obedient schoolboy when faced with authority, which is why I made the Lord of the Flies analogy. And your posts are verbose, digressing from the point with disconnected examples. With conspiracy theories and Natashas thrown in for salacious seasoning. This may appeal to the un-informed but not those who know.

I normally let things pass. But zealousness & misinformation in the guise of patriotism does not do the cause any good.

Anyways, I'll let the facts & logic in my response do the talking.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Dec 2015 20:29

C'mon guys, grow up. You're both knowledgeable so don't be like Aussies who are a good cricket team but still feel the need to sledge.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Dec 2015 20:37

tsarkar wrote:@Karan, your posts started the personal attacks. You are quite vicious on occasions, and become an obedient schoolboy when faced with authority, which is why I made the Lord of the Flies analogy.

Actually here you are projecting. You started with the personal attacks & when faced with the manner in which you had behaved, you promptly tried to play the victim. Please don't think that I or anyone here is in anyways impressed with vitriol and posturing. It actually portrays weakness in terms of your arguments and shows abuse has to compensate for lack of core substance and logic.

And your posts are verbose, digressing from the point with disconnected examples. With conspiracy theories and Natashas thrown in for salacious seasoning. This may appeal to the un-informed but not those who know.

What my posts are & aren't can be judged by unbiased observers. In the same vein, I find your posts pointlessly simplistic, devoid of nuance & tending to pass your personal speculations as fact & any critique is sought to be countered by abuse and appeals to authority. I said this, so it is etc.

As regards conspiracy theories and what not, spare me your dubious interpretations of what is now commonly known and reported. This is a democracy & the reality of procurement in the Indian system speaks for itself.

I normally let things pass. But zealousness & misinformation in the guise of patriotism does not do the cause any good.

Anyways, I'll let the facts & logic in my response do the talking.

Lets see whether you can steer clear of personal attacks and abuse in your replies. I can see plenty of zealousness and misinformation in your replies as well.

As seen above, even in your so called "I will be factual" reply, all you did was engage in petty insults. It does appear even your next reply will be full of the usual name-calling, abuse & similar stuff as versus a simple "lets agree to disagree". I will be pleasantly surprised if that's not the case.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 02 Dec 2015 20:39

am not sure but this animated video has quite good details of armaments...

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 03 Dec 2015 01:08

tsarkar wrote:Reactor is Indian designed with Russian design inputs. And there were Russian design inputs to the entire powerplant comprising reactor, heat exchanger, turbine, gears, shaft, propeller and finally a hull around it all.

Reactor by itself is meaningless. It takes more than a reactor to propel a nuclear submarine.

Design inputs doesn't mean proven design.

Trials take time, as explained earlier.

Referencing: Adm: Koithara's book on the matter. Also, the extended sea trials means, taking it through the paces, including things like crushing depth to be completely ready.

Tsarkar: The references indicate, far more help in the design and construction process of the reactor and the entire vessel by the Russians than even you seem to suggest.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5yNC- ... nt&f=false