Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 28164?s=20 ---> DRDO developing pump jet propulsion for future submarines. Indian SSN is again in the spotlight and It will have pump jet propulsion with electric motor drive. Most probably it will have a upgraded CLWR-2 reactor with 180-200 mW. India may try to get help from France to make both technologies perfect.

https://twitter.com/JaySubbu/status/144 ... 86817?s=20 ---> The picture shows a pump jet torpedo, I think. Many torpedoes use pump jet. Now China is developing next generation pump jet called Rimjet. The rotor is on the rim with stator inside. Supposed to be even quieter.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter thread...click on link below....

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... 67109?s=20 ---> Some thoughts on the Indian Navy's nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) program, known by different names including Project-75A, Project-76 or simply "Indian SSN".
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

What a gorgeous shot. Beautiful!

https://twitter.com/vishybee/status/142 ... 85888?s=20 ---> There is a touch of the pirate about every man who wears the Dolphin badge.

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... 43557?s=20 ---> INS Chakra/Akula Class

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Probably not a good idea to give out the selfies like that aboard strategic assets !!
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Probably not a good idea to give out the selfies like that aboard strategic assets !!
Pictures aboard strategic assets like this are cleared before release. There is nothing in that picture that is already not known.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

The name and rank identity tags have been removed in the picture. But a facial recognition software can figure out who this individual is.

Too much of a risk IMO. But I guess the Navy is aware of the risk and is okay with it.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by sajaym »

Looks like the typical 'retirement' pic that retiring officers usually take, of themselves with their machine one last time. Also, theres no guarantee whether this is Chakra I or Chakra Ii.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

It is an Akula :)

You missed the mithai delivery :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SNaik »

sajaym wrote:Looks like the typical 'retirement' pic that retiring officers usually take, of themselves with their machine one last time. Also, theres no guarantee whether this is Chakra I or Chakra Ii.
Chakra I did not have the towed array container on the top of the fin.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by nachiket »

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote:Probably not a good idea to give out the selfies like that aboard strategic assets !!
Pictures aboard strategic assets like this are cleared before release. There is nothing in that picture that is already not known.
Also, the strategic asset in question has already been returned to Russia and is no longer in service.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Cyrano »

https://eurasiantimes.com/indias-1st-nu ... oject/?amp

Nice article on India's first nuclear sub INS Chakra
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

French defence minister to visit India this week; maritime cooperation, nuke technology for submarine on agenda
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 267243.cms
14 Dec 2021
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/andreasmoun/status/ ... 34472?s=20 ---> Beyond the discussions on the next major contracts in India (Rafale, conventional submarines, helicopters), France could discuss during the visit of the Minister of the Armed Forces cooperation in the field of nuclear attack submarines.

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Barath »

France Set To Offer Barracuda Nuclear Submarines To India
http://www.businessworld.in/article/Fra ... 21-414965/
17 Dec 2021
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Barath wrote:...
Barath, please put title and date of news article when posting. I have edited your post. Thank You.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by V_Raman »

Why do we need foreign nuclear subs when we have already built Arihant and building Arihat. Maybe I dont understand our strategic needs. I am always bummed with our sub building capabilities after the HDW fiasco.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:Why do we need foreign nuclear subs when we have already built Arihant and building Arihat. Maybe I dont understand our strategic needs. I am always bummed with our sub building capabilities after the HDW fiasco.
Don't be bummed. If this news is true, then it is good news.

India needs SSNs and whoever (France, Russia) can provide them, then it is something that India must consider.

Go through the previous pages of this thread and read the posts from Vicky.

I only wish it were that easy to build an exact spec reactor (found on the Arihant) and port it over to an Indian SSN. But it is not. Why does Arihant have a 83 mW reactor and the Project 75 Alpha (the six build Indian SSN program) is designed to carry a CLWR-B2 Compact light-water reactor at 190 mW output? Should not the 83 mW reactor be sufficient? Why waste money in designing a brand new reactor? 190 mW is more than double the output found on the Arihant reactor. And just something for you to think about --- the reactor on the Akula Class (a boat that Indian Navy leased in the past and is now considering additional leases of not one, but reportedly two) is also at 190 mW.

India's strategic needs have to be balanced with maintaining strategic relationships. Requirements and threat perceptions are weighed against the available budget, availability (or the lack thereof) of indigenous platforms and maintaining geopolitical relationships. In some instances, India will chart her own path (with assistance) i.e. Arihant Class SSBN with Russian help on reactor design. In some instances, India cancels earlier decided contracts i.e. Ka-226 in favour of Light Utility Helicopter. NASAMs is another example. And yet in others, India continues with contests that will likely never see the light of day i.e. 114 MRFA.

Whether we agree with it or not, the Govt of India will continue to engage (or disengage) with partner nations - for a variety of reasons - on nuclear powered submarines, aircraft carriers, fighter aircraft, armed drones and other such equipment.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rishirishi »

V_Raman wrote:Why do we need foreign nuclear subs when we have already built Arihant and building Arihat. Maybe I dont understand our strategic needs. I am always bummed with our sub building capabilities after the HDW fiasco.
In politics the rules goes "say something" and "deal something". You never know what the whole package is. If France desperately need to sell the sub, to maintain its nuke building capability, they might be willing to part with other tech as well. It could be diplomatic relations, promise to boycott TSP, locally manufacture Meteor or some other critical SLBM tech (like the missile it self).

It is like the Predator drones. They cost as much as a fighter per piece (100 million dollars). We really do not know the total reach of the deal.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

France will be looking forward to make a sale on nuclear powered submarines because of AUKUS.

Right now, it is a prestige issue for France. The Barracuda/Suffren Class is an impressive vessel and is more than a match for what the Chinese can put to sea. AUKUS may turn out to be a blessing in disguise for India. Lets see how this plays out.

If a French offer can cancel Project 75I, then India should definitely consider it. Just build additional Scorpenes as a stop gap. I know Naval Group offered 2 or 3 additional Scorpene boats. I really hope we don't end up with those three used Kilos that Russia is offering.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
V_Raman wrote:Why do we need foreign nuclear subs when we have already built Arihant and building Arihat. Maybe I dont understand our strategic needs. I am always bummed with our sub building capabilities after the HDW fiasco.
Don't be bummed. If this news is true, then it is good news.

India needs SSNs and whoever (France, Russia) can provide them, then it is something that India must consider.

I only wish it were that easy to build an exact spec reactor (found on the Arihant) and port it over to an Indian SSN. But it is not. Why does Arihant have a 83 mW reactor and the Project 75 Alpha (the six build Indian SSN program) is designed to carry a CLWR-B2 Compact light-water reactor at 190 mW output? Should not the 83 mW reactor be sufficient?
Not sure there is a simple answer to that question. Boomers and Killers have different power requirements., its not a case of porting over the same reactor. Killers would need to have higher bursts of power and sprint when needed., Boomers like to go quiet, stay quiet , does not like any attention by the very nature of its mission.

Now low enriched uranium can be used or is ideal for a boomer but a killer would need a higher capable / rated reactor with highly enriched uranium., and this is what India is looking and maybe France is willing to offer.

The electronics acoustics and sensor masts are totally of different category for killers vs boomers that make more use of passive sonars.

But anyway there is pumpjet tech
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Kit, I know :) I was requesting V_Raman to put his thinking cap on.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:France will be looking forward to make a sale on nuclear powered submarines because of AUKUS.

Right now, it is a prestige issue for France. The Barracuda/Suffren Class is an impressive vessel and is more than a match for what the Chinese can put to sea. AUKUS may turn out to be a blessing in disguise for India. Lets see how this plays out.

If a French offer can cancel Project 75I, then India should definitely consider it. Just build additional Scorpenes as a stop gap. I know Naval Group offered 2 or 3 additional Scorpene boats. I really hope we don't end up with those three used Kilos that Russia is offering.
Admiral., I don't think India is looking to buy a Barracuda off the shelf, maybe some technologies for the new class that would feed onto its SSN program is more likely
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

I don't believe that is what is being offered. It will be some French tech, like you said above. My apologies for the wording.

French/Russian SSN tech + Indian designed HEU reactor could be a future Project 75 Alpha.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:I don't believe that is what is being offered. It will be some French tech, like you said above. My apologies for the wording.

French/Russian SSN tech + Indian designed HEU reactor could be a future Project 75 Alpha.
kit wrote:Admiral., I don't think India is looking to buy a Barracuda off the shelf, maybe some technologies for the new class that would feed onto its SSN program is more likely
The French too want something from the deal - we'll probably wind up with some version of Scorpene program again. Initial direct deliveries, then SKD route, and finally in tranche II Indian reactor.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ldev »

The French are not going to just sell tech. There will be a new class of submarines built with French collaboration I would think, a modified Suffren class (Barracuda type) maybe. Just hope that the price is closer to the Euro 1.5 billion per sub that the French Navy is paying for 6 Suffren class SSNs rather than the $66 billion invoice that Australia faced for 12 conventional subs when they finally pulled the plug on Naval Group, France. Otherwise India will face sticker shock!!
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

I hope India realizes that we are dealing from a position of strength here. France is hurting and want a face-saver. Squeeze them for everything.

Not sure if importing Barracuda is a good idea, for it will surely kill our homegrown SSN program which is yet to begin. The Arihant deal is a good template: build our own & pay the French for ToT in areas where we need help. Buy an additional 6 Scorpenes + Rafales + Meteors
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

ldev wrote:The French are not going to just sell tech. There will be a new class of submarines built with French collaboration I would think, a modified Suffren class (Barracuda type) maybe. Just hope that the price is closer to the Euro 1.5 billion per sub that the French Navy is paying for 6 Suffren class SSNs rather than the $66 billion invoice that Australia faced for 12 conventional subs when they finally pulled the plug on Naval Group, France. Otherwise India will face sticker shock!!
I just don't understand why do we require any assistance from any other nation today to build Nuke boats.

MDL is already designing a nuke boat that should be ready for production between 2025 to 2026.

If all goes well.

What it it that the French are bringing to the table that India cannot develop in the next few years on our own?

Nuke reactor? Already done.
Hull? Already done.
Quitening? Already done
Weapons? Already done.

India must learn to stand on our own feet.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

ldev wrote:The French are not going to just sell tech. There will be a new class of submarines built with French collaboration I would think, a modified Suffren class (Barracuda type) maybe. Just hope that the price is closer to the Euro 1.5 billion per sub that the French Navy is paying for 6 Suffren class SSNs rather than the $66 billion invoice that Australia faced for 12 conventional subs when they finally pulled the plug on Naval Group, France. Otherwise India will face sticker shock!!
Indeed , that "deal" is a nonstarter from the word go!! why waste time and money., hope they are realistic !
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:...
Well a few designs for a boomer class does give some experience, but India could do better with the lead times of development for a new reactor design for the SSNs

Hull - maybe again., here i think India has indeed achieved a certain capability.

Quieting - but there are certain "quieting" technologies required for an SSN but not for a SSBN.

Weapons - some western designs still lead by 2 generations., India has some contemporary tech

But sensors especially non hull penetrating optoelectronic masts would still need to be imported.

Same for pump jet propulsion.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Actually I am curious about the possibility of leasing a Barracuda SSN by IN . Would the French play ball ?

The integrated combat system for this is at par with the American Lockheed models

once the Duguay-Trouin comes online in early 2022, the Suffren can come to India !!
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ldev »

kit wrote:
ldev wrote:The French are not going to just sell tech. There will be a new class of submarines built with French collaboration I would think, a modified Suffren class (Barracuda type) maybe. Just hope that the price is closer to the Euro 1.5 billion per sub that the French Navy is paying for 6 Suffren class SSNs rather than the $66 billion invoice that Australia faced for 12 conventional subs when they finally pulled the plug on Naval Group, France. Otherwise India will face sticker shock!!
Indeed , that "deal" is a nonstarter from the word go!! why waste time and money., hope they are realistic !
One would hope so. If I was in the French position, my opening gambit to India will be, " You guys have signed a contract with Russia to LEASE an Akula for 3 billion dollars for 10 years, a submarine that you have to return at the end of that period. Do you really expect to OWN a submarine built by us or with our help which is yours and stays with you till it is scrapped, for anything less than $ 3 billion.?'

And I guess the haggling will begin. The only way this will work out successfully is an alignment of interests between the two countries on a whole slew of issues such that the submarine deal is just one component of a very strategic relationship.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

ldev wrote:
kit wrote:
Indeed , that "deal" is a nonstarter from the word go!! why waste time and money., hope they are realistic !
One would hope so. If I was in the French position, my opening gambit to India will be, " You guys have signed a contract with Russia to LEASE an Akula for 3 billion dollars for 10 years, a submarine that you have to return at the end of that period. Do you really expect to OWN a submarine built by us or with our help which is yours and stays with you till it is scrapped, for anything less than $ 3 billion.?'

And I guess the haggling will begin. The only way this will work out successfully is an alignment of interests between the two countries on a whole slew of issues such that the submarine deal is just one component of a very strategic relationship.
Well then India would say., you can have your 3 billion., if that came with complete tech transfer for the reactor and pump jet tech along with tech manufacturing expertise/training etc... just like the Russians did :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Barath »

Expect the French proposition to include both SSN and Project 75I. Double the opportunity space, high commonality between P75I conventional VLS subs and SSN VLS subs. And France gets to skip the RFP, by offering a proposition only Russia can match.

This is still France making a phone call, and not India requesting it or a deal being struck. Given French credentials and past relationship, it is worth listening them out without hanging up straight off. Purchase is a different story.

There probably are interesting pieces of tech that may be of interest, (LEU reactor heritage, smaller subs, quick refuel hatches, optronic masts, quieting, sensors, pumpjets etc), but the strategy may have challenges to fit in with earlier indian strategy and technology and the 190 Mw SSN reactor design would presumably have kicked off (but not completed) in 2015

In any case, both P75I and SSN detailed design have to come out of Navy budget and are yet to get AoN.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:I just don't understand why do we require any assistance from any other nation today to build Nuke boats.

MDL is already designing a nuke boat that should be ready for production between 2025 to 2026.
There are other factors in play, than just a gov to gov transaction. As explained earlier, there are a number of reasons (some of which will remain under wraps) for the GOI to sign such a deal.

We are putting the cart before the horse. Discussions are just preliminary and nothing has been set in stone. Lets see what is released to the media over the next few years.
Pratyush wrote:What it it that the French are bringing to the table that India cannot develop in the next few years on our own?

Nuke reactor? Already done.
Hull? Already done.
Quitening? Already done
Weapons? Already done.

India must learn to stand on our own feet.
No to all four points, especially on the nuclear reactor.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Well then India would say., you can have your 3 billion., if that came with complete tech transfer for the reactor and pump jet tech along with tech manufacturing expertise/training etc... just like the Russians did :mrgreen: :lol:
Any possible nuclear submarine cooperation with France will not impinge on any submarine deal with Russia. The pair of Akulas will still come.

The first of Project 75 Alpha will put to sea only in the next decade. Sufficient time for the Akula pair to operate.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Actually I am curious about the possibility of leasing a Barracuda SSN by IN . Would the French play ball ?

The integrated combat system for this is at par with the American Lockheed models.

once the Duguay-Trouin comes online in early 2022, the Suffren can come to India !!
Leasing a Suffren Class will be unlikely. I don't see that happening. What will happen is an agreement like LEMOA/RELOS. India is negotiating such an agreement with France, along with many other nations.

Apart from being an offensive platform, the Suffren Class will give the French (and in turn India) some valuable intelligence into PLAN activities in the Indian Ocean and even in China's own backyard.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Barath wrote:Expect the French proposition to include both SSN and Project 75I. Double the opportunity space, high commonality between P75I conventional VLS subs and SSN VLS subs. And France gets to skip the RFP, by offering a proposition only Russia can match.

This is still France making a phone call, and not India requesting it or a deal being struck. Given French credentials and past relationship, it is worth listening them out without hanging up straight off. Purchase is a different story.

There probably are interesting pieces of tech that may be of interest, (LEU reactor heritage, smaller subs, quick refuel hatches, optronic masts, quieting, sensors, pumpjets etc), but the strategy may have challenges to fit in with earlier indian strategy and technology and the 190 Mw SSN reactor design would presumably have kicked off (but not completed) in 2015

In any case, both P75I and SSN detailed design have to come out of Navy budget and are yet to get AoN.
Nice post. Thank You.

There are tech on the Suffren Class that would be of immense value to Project 75 Alpha. Some of them are;

* nuclear reactor design
* submarine (SSN) design
* pump-jet based propeller
* hybrid steam/electric propulsion
* Combat Management System (SYCOBS)

Any possible Indo-French deal on nuclear powered submarines will mean the end of Project 75I. That program has to be ended. It is the Navy's version of the IAF's 114 MRFA contest. Just continue with additional Scorpene SSK boats in the interim. The Navy will not be able to fund both programs. Anyway, the Navy has set aside the construction of IAC-2 in favour of the six-build SSN Project 75 Alpha program.

If anything moves, it will be Project 75 Alpha.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SSridhar »

Barath wrote: . . .
There probably are interesting pieces of tech that may be of interest, (LEU reactor heritage, . . . quick refuel hatches
Yes, the French claim they do not need to cut open the hull to inspect or refuel the reactor and their hatches would allow that to be done in weeks.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Barath »

France calls them brèches; you can see an example on pg 10 as well as schematics.
Brèches are rectangular hatches of sufficient dimension to permit loading and unloading of heavy equipment. The photographs
and sketch [on pg 10] define and illustrate these brèches. They can be described as portions of the pressure hull that will fit in such a manner that the external pressure will seal them in the right position. Inside the hull, some safety bolts will ensure that even in severe shocks they will stay in place. Several brèches are positioned all along the hull, one of which being on top of the nuclear plant. Unloading the core is then relatively easy and can be done at any time, even during the short stays in port between patrols (it was effectively demonstrated on SSBN Le Redoutable)
Pressure hull and hull penetrations (see also optronics masts) are serious business with implications for safety and performance (diving depth)

French nuclear regulations mandate 10 year inspection, whether civil or military and so these are essential. By contrast the US/UK etc try to come up with standards and technologies that can withstand corrosion and leakage for the life of the sub (in the latest subs). Not trivial.

As you may recall, Arihant has a supposed 10 years between refueling, just like the French subs (will vary a bit based on burn up, use, %HEU etc). Even the russian leases are 10 years taking into account refueling. Arihant uses ~42% HEU. Suffren uses 6% LEU and doubled the size of the core while keeping reactor sizes same. That's some serious nuclear chops. While France wanted to maximize re-use of civilian and military nuclear chain, India has already segregated civil and military facilities due to the 1-2-3 agreement signed in the Bush era and the PWR reactors used are anyway different from civilian IPWHR/CANDU Besides, India already has a second purification facility in Challekere for the uranium for nuclear submarines and plutonium for warheads. So India won't get the same benefits as France. Nonetheless, since uranium ores in India is limited, and India imports it, it will still be of interest. Also because HEU is a proliferation risk requiring more intense security (though smaller volume) throughout.

Bonus pic: Entire nuclear reactor vessel being installed into LeTerrible. Likely during submarine manufacture.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by srin »

I keep hearing about Arihant's 83MW reactor whereas Akula has a 190 MW reactor. What's stopping us from having 2 reactors (not unheard of - Typhoon class had two) ? If space is a constraint, I'd get rid of the VLS.
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