Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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Barath
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Barath »

Not just the Typhoon. A number of other Russian/soviet submarines had dual VM reactors (othesr had single reactor). [BTW, there's been considerable speculation that the Arihant reactor draws to varying degree on a VM variant design. Some go so far to say that it is a clone . However, Kakodkar says that it was designed and fabricated in India, though he does give credit to Russian advisors.]. So theoretically a submarine with 2 reactors should be possible.

You are unlikely to get much open source details on "what is stopping" as you are unlikely to get much details on propulsion constraints etc. The layout and space is critical and power density and size are closely interrelated to diameter/size, tonnage, and more for a given technology. Not just 2 reactors, but two power plants (turbines), potentially two shafts, gearing etc. IIRC, Typhoon even had twin screws.

Since we do not know the expected sub size, expected life/interval between overhauling, noise and thermal/radiation restrictions, it would be foolish to speculate. (eg Later gen reactors also look at passive cooling for quieter operation at low power).

However, Sandeep Unnithan has pointed out that back from 2006, the need for a 190MW reactor was identified for the much larger S5 SSBN submarines, and preliminary work on SSNs has kicked off since 2015 . It is therefore plausible that these have common reactors

I would hope that a 2nd gen reactor would feature some improvements over the 1st..

As for deleting the VLS. Hard disagree. Obviously for the SSBN, the VLS is the reason for existence. Even for conventional SSK and SSN, VLS can help - in that it allows for cruise and ballistic missiles of greater range than can be achieved through the torpedo tubes (eg the exocets and Klubs). The utility of a long distance conventional missile barrage on the first day of war should not be underrated - India has few such missiles, and the navy has nothing much outside - a few brahmos). Being able to have stand off capability, from stealthy platforms to devastate enemy attack on land (and to have a larger number of missiles) should have significant value. It allows the IN to also better justify its existence in a total war scenario. So much so, that they value it in P75I over just duplicating scorpenes. It will be even more so for the SSN and the S5 SSBN
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ldev »

For it's small size i.e. small relative to the US Virginia class or the UK Astute class which are larger, the Suffren class is quite impressive. It displaces ~5000 tons, smaller than the Arihant, it's compact dimensions are a length of ~100 meters and the K-15 nuclear reactor is very compact and fits in the 8.8 meter wide hull yet has an output of 150 MW. In comparison the Arihant is slightly larger in length and beam. Also major maintenance on the submarine and the reactor is compressed into a single 10 week annual inspection and service period so Naval Group boasts that the ship is operationally available for 288 days in a year.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Hari Sud »

Pratyush wrote:If the planning for the 190 me reactor started in 2006. It fits the timeline whithe Arihant was in production and the lack of power headroom with her reactor was identified and understand.

This reactor should be perfected by now. Which is what the news of indigenous SSN design getting ready by 2024 means.

I understand things doesn't make me happy about the state of affairs. I still would have wanted 6 boats of under 6000 tons for the first gen Indian SSN.
If 190Mw reactor is ready then then Indian design attack submarine will be ready soon…….. Am I right?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by JTull »

Full electric propulsion is the missing element that IN is waiting for. Strategically more important that the EMALS!!!
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Barath »

Hari Sud wrote:
If 190Mw reactor is ready then then Indian design attack submarine will be ready soon…….. Am I right?
There is no AoN for the detailed design phase yet. And the budget will be from IN budget. With all the challenges and delays that implies. So, no, assuming ready = commissioned /operational

@Pratyush. - i suspect actual work may have commenced in 2015. Though it is hard to get any public confirm
This was one factor that spurred an in-principle government approval for an SSN design study in February 2015. In December 2016, then navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba, the first government official to acknowledge the project, parsed his words. “It has kicked off. It is a classified project. The process has started.” Five years later, Project 76 is still in its design stage. The navy’s Submarine Design Group (SDG), it is understood, is yet to finalise the design. It will take at least two more years for this to happen before work can begin on fabricating the hull for the submarine
.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

Hari Sud wrote:
Pratyush wrote: Snip...

This reactor should be perfected by now. Which is what the news of indigenous SSN design getting ready by 2024 means.

Snip...
If 190Mw reactor is ready then then Indian design attack submarine will be ready soon…….. Am I right?
Did you miss the above paragraph?
Last edited by ramana on 20 Dec 2021 13:04, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Pratyush No need to be rude. He is just asking. Ramana
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

Bharat, you could be right.

Because people like me only connect the dots as they appear from snippets in the media.

In the absence of official confirmation. I have no means to know if what I am thinking is correct or not.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ramana »

Most likely SSN will be the Indian reactor in Barracuda Hull.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Barath »

Pratyush wrote: Because people like me only connect the dots as they appear from snippets in the media.
In the absence of official confirmation. I have no means to know if what I am thinking is correct or not.
Similar here. All we can do is apply logic and analogy and a degree of analysis to media snippets
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Vicky »

Vicky wrote:
Vicky wrote: BHEL has developed a 350 kW reversible Permanent Magnet Synchronous propulsion unit which has successfully completed 2500 hours of endurance testing. ( Possibly a subscale prototype for SSK/SSN drive motor) :D
This is probably the first stage of the PMSM work for SSK's and SSN's.

We have seen an EoI for a 5 MW drive motor for an SSK retrofit - likely Kilo class but don't know whether BHEL will go with PMSM or stick to the original DC type in the Kilo.

5 MW is the next step for BHEL and can probably be delivered very quickly.

An IN EoI for 35 MW drive motor for pumpjet propulsion also exists. A 35 MW PMSM will be challenging to design - the technical risk will depend on achieving the compact design. They should probably have a backup plan sticking to the steam propulsion instead of attempting NEP/IEP for this.

The only parallel motor design is the 20 MW motor in the Barracuda/Suffren. I am not sure if it is PMSM or DC. Can't find any info from ECA-Jeumont or DCNS. The Siemens & Jeumont designs go to 4 MW max and the Japanese SMC-8 is 8 MW.
Pretty much a confirmation that they are planning for upto 35 MW shaft power which is pretty much inline with the size of a Los Angeles class at 33.5 MW. Reactor thermal power will need to be in the range of 150–165 MWt. Some vendor got the TDF fund to develop these motors. My speculation is on BHEL, no one else has the experience.

Quote from https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/project/electri ... -aggregate
Electric Motor For Pumpjet Propulsion Aggregate
Project Description
The subject Electric Motor is required to be designed and developed with a shaft power capacity up to 525kW along with drive with best of the technological options to achieve compactness. The design must be scalable up to 35MW of shaft power. Design of 35MW motor and drive and validated of same with scaling up studies of 525kW motor is within the scope of this work. A dedicated Test System is also required to be developed for test & evaluation of the 525kW motors.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ldev »

Ŵølf PⒶcks
@TheLegateIN
·
8h
India secretly launched the S4 nuclear submarine (SSBN) last month. It is India's 3rd SSBN and has 8 launch tubes for K4/K5 SLBMs and a more powerful reactor than INS Arihant.
Pic credits: IHS Janes Intel
Image

Retweeted by:
Pinned Tweet
Chris Biggers
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8h
India quietly launched S4 in November 2021 at SBC. Details in my next
@JanesINTEL
report which is now live for subscribers. (Imagery:
@planet]
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/deadtrap777/status/ ... 58177?s=20 ---> S2, S3 and S4 in one frame. Arihant Class Strategic Strike Nuclear Submarine. Deferred images.

Image
Vicky
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Vicky »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/deadtrap777/status/ ... 58177?s=20 ---> S2, S3 and S4 in one frame. Arihant Class Strategic Strike Nuclear Submarine. Deferred images.
This probably means some sort of reactor power enchancement has happened within the existing hull diameter limits to account for the higher displacement, Atleast 110-120 MWt to retain speed to existing targets or else if they are still at 83 MWt that will be a crawling boat.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by nam »

It's interesting that we manage to build a stretched version of Arihant so fast. Building a SSBN and that too a heavier one is no trivial task. Compare the effort to get the LCA Mk2 prototype build time!

When money is not a problem, things happen. Wonder what is stopping us to re-use this stretched version as SSN and bring them quickly.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

Or better yet. Reclassify the original class into SSN/SSGN and build the strech varient as SSBN exclusively.

My personal wet dream for a long time has been to build SSN at between 4200 to 4800 tons using the propulsion plant of Arihant. With 8 to 12 Brahmos placed at front of the sail in inclined launch tubes.

If this was initiated in 2012 -13, we could have had a few SSN in service today.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by NRao »

ramana
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ramana »

Indian Navy's Third Ballistic Missile Submarine Doubles Missile Armament
http://www.hisutton.com/Indian-Navy-S4-SSBN.html

Decent analysis without hype.

nam no point in wondering. It's what it is.


Image
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Indranil »

Does 20 mtrs longer translate to just 4 more tubes of 2 mtr diameter each?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SSridhar »

S4 is no longer Arihant class.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

Wondering what's happening (or happened) to the K4 and K5 tests. There was one report on a K4 test some time back. Hope these are being conducted without public scrutiny & NOTAMs
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by S_Madhukar »

If we have 3 SSBNs already then may be now would be a good time to show a proper TFTA SLBM test video… Even the Koreans have been showing off :(
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Avinandan »

X-Post from the Light Utility Helicopter thread...
hanumadu wrote:Looks like Russia is going to get some other big order.
Except for Submarine, nuclear tech and perhaps small arms, I am not able to think of any other items. May be minesweepers...

I have purposefully ignored Armata Tank as it is not ready yet.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

X-Post from the Light Utility Helicopter thread...
hanumadu wrote:Looks like Russia is going to get some other big order.
Chakra III is in the works. Other than that, i don't see any thing.

Armata is not getting purchased.

Nor is any other foreign MBT.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

X-Post from the Light Utility Helicopter thread...
Pratyush wrote:
hanumadu wrote: Looks like Russia is going to get some other big order..
Chakra III is in the works. Other than that, I don't see any thing.
Indeed its likely the Akula with assorted spares and training. As the Indian defence industry develops there is not much requirement for foreign equipment. Most of the Indian Army's and Navy's equipment can be sourced indigenously. Same for the IAF very soon. Hats off to the GOI.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Y I Patel »

X-Post from the Light Utility Helicopter thread...

Decks are indeed being cleared to buy nuclear submarines… just not from Russia! Barracudas, not Akulas.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

Any good reason why we would import SSNs when our indigenous efforts are underway? Sure, they won't be as cutting edge as the best of the West, but wouldn't an import kill of our native SSN program (due to budget and other usual reasons why native stuff gets killed off)?

I understand that we don't have a powerful enough reactor for a large, fast SSN. But that would require N-reactor consultancy, which the French have offered. Taking them up on that (even if it means paying a Billion or so) is a better spend than buying SSNs directly.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Prem-ji, our six SSN program (Project 75 Alpha) will piggy back on Russian help (and increasingly likely French help). Just like how Russia did for the Arihant Class SSBN program.

I don't believe an import will kill India's SSN program. In fact, it will not even be a direct import. More than likely systems and technologies will be incorporated into our SSN program. Unlike the Akula Class lease, direct import of French Barracuda/Suffren Class will be *VERY* expensive.

The Barracuda/Suffren Class is a very impressive boat, but it will not be a perfect fit. There will be Indian kit on board the six Indian SSNs, especially the weapons (Varunastra, BrahMos and possibly Nirbhay). The French equivalents (F-21, Exocet, Naval SCALP) while great, will be more expensive. Due to the smaller industrial base in France, their weapons are boutique.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

If its systems & tech import + consultancy, that'd be closer to the Arihant model and quite welcome! That'd also be similar to the way we build our warships where not every component is indigenous, but becomes so over time. We would leapfrog and at the same time absorb the tech needed for the next iteration
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

That is what will primarily happen. I would be surprised if India actually did screwdrivergiri of the Barracuda/Suffren Class. That would serve no point whatsoever and would be a monumental waste of cash. With AUKUS, the French are eager to sell their nuclear powered submarines. It is a prestige issue for them, after the Australian snub. But the French will be looking to make a profit and not sell them for at cost. At the least, they will look to recover the developmental costs of the Barracuda/Suffren Class.

The technology could be Barracuda/Suffren and even Akula, but India will want to customize it. Project 75 Alpha is planned to have a 190 MW HEU reactor. Guess which other SSN has a 190 MW HEU reactor? The Akula. India leased (and now returned) one Akula and is in talks to lease two more Akulas now. The Barracuda/Suffren Class has a 150 MW reactor and is LEU. Although P75 Alpha is still on the drawing board and may switch to a LEU reactor, depending on how the winds blow.

Russian/French reactor design + French technologies/systems + Indian weapons & other systems = Project 75 Alpha :)
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

From Page 44 of this thread and from my own post.

===========
Rakesh wrote:There are tech on the Suffren Class that would be of immense value to Project 75 Alpha. Some of them are;

* nuclear reactor design
* submarine (SSN) design
* pump-jet based propeller
* hybrid steam/electric propulsion
* Combat Management System (SYCOBS).
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Nuclear Submarines of Indian Navy by Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retd).

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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... Ldhfd2eT7Q ---> What appears (to me) to be a new building dock (actually, 2 new docks side-by-side) is taking shape at SBC Vizag - If these are N-sub building docks (which is likely), they could take India's concurrent build capacity to four nuclear-powered boats at a time, from the current two.

Image

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... Ldhfd2eT7Q ---> The new docks are approximately 185 meters in length - long enough to accommodate even Ohio-class SSBNs (approx 170m long). One or both of these new docks could be earmarked for the future S-5 SSBN construction.

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... Ldhfd2eT7Q ---> The two new docks could be instrumental given the fact India will be pursuing concurrent construction of both the Project-75A SSN program as well as the S-5 SSBN program in the coming years. Theoretically, 3 x SSNs and 1 x SSBN can be under construction at the same time. Or 2 & 2.

https://twitter.com/Parthu_Potluri/stat ... Ldhfd2eT7Q ---> For reference, the new S4 SSBN coming out of the (1) spot I marked above in the old/existing dock, where presumably the S4* is under construction at the (2) spot - ahead of (1) under the same roof.

Image
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by KL Dubey »

^^A general question, where do these kind of satellite images come from?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

A number of providers are sharing open source earth imagining satalite images.

Including Google.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... SH_Fmdvlsw ---> Report: Design phase of India's indigenous nuclear powered attack submarines (SSNs) to be completed by end of 2023.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/MohanCRaja/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> A new report by Ashley Tellis of @CarnegieEndow calls on the US to find creative ideas to strengthen India’s nuclear deterrence against China—by facilitating greater sophistication of its nuclear weapons and developing a survivable submarine based nuclear deterrent.

https://twitter.com/MohanCRaja/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> Read the full report from Tellis on Nuclear Transitions in Southern Asia at:

Striking Asymmetries: Nuclear Transitions in Southern Asia
https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/07/1 ... -pub-87394
18 July 2022
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/MohanCRaja/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> A new report by Ashley Tellis of @CarnegieEndow calls on the US to find creative ideas to strengthen India’s nuclear deterrence against China—by facilitating greater sophistication of its nuclear weapons and developing a survivable submarine based nuclear deterrent.

https://twitter.com/MohanCRaja/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> Read the full report from Tellis on Nuclear Transitions in Southern Asia at:

Striking Asymmetries: Nuclear Transitions in Southern Asia
https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/07/1 ... -pub-87394
18 July 2022
Wonders will never cease. Ashley Tellis batting for India!
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Wonders will never cease. Ashley Tellis batting for India!
He is batting for America. Always has and always will.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote:Wonders will never cease. Ashley Tellis batting for India!
He is batting for America. Always has and always will.
https://carnegieendowment.org/2022/07/1 ... -pub-87400

"The bottom line, therefore, is that within the Southern Asian triangle, China remains the dominant nuclear power: this is not surprising, given its ambitions to challenge the United States as the global hegemon. But the pursuit of this aim has widened its nuclear superiority over India in consequential ways, even if New Delhi has not yet felt compelled to mitigate this challenge, again for sensible reasons of its own. On many counts, Pakistan remains the second-most-capable nuclear power in Southern Asia, whether measured by the number or the diversity of its nuclear weapons. Yet this advantage is less politically significant than it seems because India, its principal antagonist, is unlikely to prosecute any military operations that make Islamabad’s nuclear reserves relevant for purposes of defense. This fact, however, is itself an overdetermined tribute to the success of Pakistani deterrence. The plodding expansion of India’s nuclear capabilities then suit New Delhi’s status quo disposition just fine, and its third-place status in the regional nuclear sweepstakes does not seem to alarm its decisionmakers unduly because of their conviction that India’s modest nuclear reserves today suffice to protect their interests in all plausible threat scenarios involving China and Pakistan."

Is the "west" encouraging Indian nuclear capabilities ?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:Is the "west" encouraging Indian nuclear capabilities ?
Kit, always remember ----> India's rise - via encouraging her nuclear or conventional capabilities - must always be managed by the Govt of the United States of America and her Military Industrial Complex. He is arguing for the above via that route only. In principle, there is nothing wrong with that. It is the baggage that comes with that US encouragement that the Govt of India pushes back on.

Managing India's Rise - via the United States - will keep India in check. An independent & resurgent India that rises on her own merit and capabilities must not be encouraged. That creates a future competitor for the US to deal with. They already have a couple of headaches (China, Russia, Turkey) right now. Why add to the mix? This is the beauty of the US. They think 50+ years (if not more) ahead and make their moves on the chess board on those assumptions.

So keep harping on the right notes - plurality of India's democracy, India must follow the international rules based order, etc. However, when things don't work out in the manner as envisaged, then turn the screws on i.e. toolkits via Greta Thunberg and other wokes.
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