Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

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kit
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

bala wrote:
titash wrote:It is inevitable that the India + Russia + China axis will form a strong block
This is the nightmare scenario for the Anglo-Saxon breed of UK/US/Australia. They have tried their level best to instigate faultlines amongst India + Russia + China. China has the belief that they are equals if not better than the US. Ancient Rus was the land of Vedas (Sapthamahanagaram) and China's cultural backbone is Buddhism from India. Yes India could be the first among equals.
Where are you reading all this ?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by sohamn »

bala wrote:
titash wrote:It is inevitable that the India + Russia + China axis will form a strong block
This is the nightmare scenario for the Anglo-Saxon breed of UK/US/Australia. They have tried their level best to instigate faultlines amongst India + Russia + China. China has the belief that they are equals if not better than the US. Ancient Rus was the land of Vedas (Sapthamahanagaram) and China's cultural backbone is Buddhism from India. Yes India could be the first among equals.
Unbelievable, why don't you add Iron brother Pakistan as well. Make it a India Pakistan Russia China alliance against the alien virus that has taken over the white man.

There are some neo comms within BR who fantasize such nonsensical alliances that will never happen. China will remain India's number one enemy for the foreseeable future.

For the Russia Chink fanboys please note that the present dispensation in New Delhi is practical and is not in any camp. It tacitly supports Russia because it can't let Russia to become a vassal state of China, which it will if India removed the support. Russia is embedded in Indian most strategic projects and we can't let them go to our enemies lap.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by KSingh »

titash wrote:
KSingh wrote: The year is 2022, it’s not sensible to be bogged down by romanticised accounts of history and I don’t see this GoI as being one for that, they are particularly vocal about realpolitik. So where it suits india Russia will continue to be engaged but the costs are rapidly outweighing the pros.

Besides Russia/USSR is not the only game in town any longer the French would love to take their place and india is far more capable to stand on its own feet too
On the contrary, the India-US relationship is at best a one-night stand. It will run its course in less than a decade.

The US does not tolerate peers - whether its the Soviets during the cold war or China now. Guess who's next? Subnational subversion and balkanization are always on the menu

FYI - the Russians don't fund NYT, WaPo, BBC, The Wire, Scroll, The Quint, Al Jazeera, Freedom House, USCIRF, Amnesty, The Church of South India, etc. Guess who does?

The India-Russia relationship on the other hand has no inherent conflicts - no territorial disputes, no Ghazwa-e-Hind / Jihadi mindset on the part of either party, a natural resource powerhouse + low population on one hand & a population powerhouse + natural resource consumer on the other hand

In the long run, putting on a realpolitik lens...Islamist & Western subversion(s) are the key threats for India. India will eventually reach an accommodation with China in approx. 10 years once hard power parity is attained. It is inevitable that the India + Russia + China axis will form a strong block
The US won’t tolerate an equal but China will (on its own borders too)? Are you serious?

This Russian-China-india axis talk is not only nonsensical it is fanciful. Russia is in STEEP decline, almost all their technical base today exists because of the USSR, they don’t have the steam to sustain it much longer and without Indian $$$ it’ll get even worse for them. Remember Russia is not the USSR, their economy is smaller than Italy’s, their best days are long behind them and they are getting whooped in Ukraine, they’ll be lucky to come out of this current mess equal to the sorry state they were before February 2022.

And China is a direct threat to India and vice versa, they have almost no incentive to treat india as a peer and in fact as things get more unstable internally and they grow older (demographically) they will only further agitate against India

The West is not out to do any favours for india either, india needs to walk its own path but please do not start this Russia-India-China dreaming, it just isn’t an option
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by hnair »

KSingh, what does the above post got to do with Arihant? That too right under a post by SSridhar asking for folks not to do thread deviation.

Use the appropriate thread if you want to respond to others
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Isn't it time we prioritise induction of SSNs in our Navy?
https://bharatshakti.in/india-is-in-des ... rines-ssn/
26 Oct 2022
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... ZafHFRIgbQ ---> Foreign assistance to India’s N-sub prog… France with US support”. This part of the interview given to the Indian Express by Ashley Tellis jumped out at me.

Image
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

I have asked this question before as well.

Why do India and France require the US to midwife a nuclear submarine program for India?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

America does not, but America wants to. Unlike the UK, the French are under no obligation to have the US participate in any Indo-French nuclear submarine cooperation. But Americans being Americans, have to get involved in everything and anything. It is all about American interests.

One of the primary goals of America's recent coziness to India is her huge military market. By closing the door to Russia (via CAATSA, war in Ukraine, etc), America wanted to become the next preferred military supplier to India. That plan has not worked out exactly as envisaged. The MMRCA went the way of the dodo. The SE contest also died a similar death and it looks like MRFA could also slip out of the American's hands.

Nuclear submarine cooperation - which was only given to America's favourite poodle (UK) - was ceremoniously given to Australia via AUKUS in Sept 2021. Now with India building her own SSBN and looking to make the leap to larger and more capable SSBNs (and even SSNs), this is the next best hope for the Americans to have a significant foothold on a strategic platform in another foreign country.

But how much - if any - will the French actually permit such interference remains to be seen. The UK is in a death spiral and Germany & France are Europe's best hope now. Western Europe - post Trump - have realised that the Americans can no longer be counted on. To stay relevant, France will have to take on a larger leadership role and partnering with India gives her a much required foundation in her Look East policy.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Cyrano »

Telly is BSing and gaslighting. India doesn't need any help "to build a survivable nuclear deterrent". It already has one since a few years.

For the rest, Rakesh ji has said it perfectly, nothing needs to be added.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

Well said Cyrano-ji.

Partnering with the US on drones and getting transport (fixed and rotary wing) aircraft is one thing. Even AH-64 and P-8I is also OK, to a certain degree. But under no circumstances, must India ever acquire combat aircraft or any strategic platform of this nature from the US. The Americans will come in their restrictive agreements and will entangle India in a geopolitical mess that will be near impossible to get out of. Their platforms are technically sound, but their political setup is a mess. America is deeply unreliable and best kept at an arms length. JMVHO.

Never ever get into bed with the Americans. India will rue that decision. For India - at this critical moment in her history - the end goal of any military partnership (or even alliance - a dirty word) must work towards Self Reliance. With America, that will never happen. After having released herself from the tight embrace of the Russian bear, please don't jump into the arms of the American bull.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by VKumar »

Americans are extremely transactional. As soon as they think they have a better deal elsewhere, they will dump you.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by S_Madhukar »

Well after weakened Russia where are we going to go ? We end up with US French duopoly, one will kick and deny us the other will pull and squeeze us of more money. There are no good outcomes, we will have to adopt Chinese model and grab whatever we can whichever way we can
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ and that is precisely why we have not closed our door entirely to the possibility of making some kind of peace with the Chinese however disagreeable this may be to many of us here. If the west (US/France/Israel) has a monopoly on arms, we need to have a sovereign decision whether or not we need to purchase those arms - otherwise we will end up giving an arm and a leg, and selling our soul to the western MIC. This is also why we need our backstops of nukes and second-strike ability as a peace guarantor which will give us some strategic independence.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by ernest »

S_Madhukar wrote:Well after weakened Russia where are we going to go ? We end up with US French duopoly, one will kick and deny us the other will pull and squeeze us of more money. There are no good outcomes, we will have to adopt Chinese model and grab whatever we can whichever way we can
WRT to a weakened Russia - Doesn't it make our chances of getting SSN tech knohow/knowwhy better from Russia? From the west, we cannot get SSN tech, but some JV at max, where they control the crown jewels, and we work on peripherals.

We already have a good history of sharing Russian nuclear submarine knowhow, and building on top of it. With Chakra 1 and 2, and then Arihant class, we have built up a good base, and continuing on improving it makes sense. Nuclear tech, especially subs, have long development timelines, and we cannot switch from Russian to western tech without decades worth of work. Russian nuclear sub tech is very competitive, and I see no reason to ditch building on top of it, and going to west for more sanction prone route for a key strategic asset
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

VKumar wrote:Americans are extremely transactional. As soon as they think they have a better deal elsewhere, they will dump you.
Simple American transactions would not really be a problem. That is, pay money to buy xyz, and we own xyz.

They are not really transactional. They are colonial, buy xyz for money and subordinate your self to us.

That is the real problem with the US. If you are anglo-sphere, not a problem. But India is not. So a huge problem.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

People are talking as though there is time. There is no time. IF India is not armed to her teeth by 2025/26 then India will be a vassal state - unless the others decimate each other (which is highly likely).

I would like to see IN with at least 3 Arihant class boats - if not more. And, with a clear-cut process in place to use them - no UN Charter-type talk, no time for discussions. Just look after yourself - the time for logical arguments has gone by.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

^^^
Well said. But you have to tell that to the Indian armed forces. I have been arguing for the last year or so about the need for a substantial increase in size of both the IAF and the navy.

But we are going OT for the thread.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

Is Tellis floating a State Department trial-balloon that "we will look the other way when you test, but only if you let us intrude into your Nuclear weapons program"

Heck, even Pakis didn't fall for that, considering the billions they got from the US by begging
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

Will the US be prepared to provide Virginia class propulsion plant along with plant and machinery for fabrication of said plants?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

^^^^
not happening...
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SRajesh »

Tellis Pulao is probably because somethings serious cooking with regards to SSN and SSBN.
The video posted on the forum are to be believed then khan wants some eyes and ears into that programme!
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by hnair »

That would be like taking out a functioning Kaveri from Tejas fleet, replacing it with F404 and howling at full moon about CATSAA.

French tech will be good enough for optimising existing design but again, like “let us fix Kaveri” consultancy, cannot bank on them to fix anything.

Don’t know what Tellis actually is trying to convey. Maybe a resignation in west that India will restart a test campaign at Pokaran?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Rakesh »

America wants in on the action with regards to India's SSBN and SSN programs. That is what this is. Thus a push towards this goal by using the time-tested South Asian surrogate - Ashley Tellis. America still thinks on racial terms (versus on technical merit) when dealing with countries. Ashley Tellis, Richard Verma, Vivek Lall are examples of this (weird) belief i.e. that an Indian-American will be able to establish a conduit between the two nations. The problem lies is that these Indo-Americans come in with interests that do NOT align with India's interests.

*(As a side note, that same belief exists even on BRF. Funny, but true.)

America wants nations to remain dependent on her (to avoid a future military and even a MIC competitor) and India is looking to become self reliant. These interests will *NEVER* align. This is exactly why China and America are at loggerheads with each other. Both want to be the only tiger on the top of the mountain. If China adopted the model of other South East Asian countries (South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, etc) and purchased American hardware, these two would be the thickest of friends. And the Chinese military market would be a lottery bonanza for the American MIC.

When Ashley Tellis says, "....the best candidate to offer that cooperation is France - with US Support." What that actually translates to is America wants to be intimately *INVOLVED* in the negotiations between India and France over nuclear submarine cooperation. America wants oversight of that technical exchange between India and France (INFRA). This will give America a good insight into what level of tech India will acquire, but the Americans will not dole out a single piece of their own nuclear submarine tech. The same happened with the now failed JV between GE and GTRE. The former did not give any valuable tech to India and no company would, to be honest. But GE was eager to know from GTRE, how far along the Kaveri turbofan has progressed.

French co-operation will - IMVHO - be relegated to the pump jet propulsion found on the Suffren Class SSN along with sensors and sonars. The LEU (low enriched uranium) reactor design - used by the French - will likely not get adopted, as BARC is working on a light water reactor modelled along the lines of the OK-650B/OK-650M reactor that is used aboard the Akula Class SSN. And that is a HEU (highly enriched uranium) design.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SidSoma »

hnair wrote:That would be like taking out a functioning Kavery from Tejas fleet, replacing it with F404 and howling at full moon about CATSAA.

French tech will be good enough for optimising existing design but again, like “let us fix Kavery” consultancy, cannot bank on them to fix anything.

Don’t know what Tellis actually is trying to convey. Maybe a resignation in west that India will restart a test campaign at Pokaran?
Just to Add ....... the French were mighty peeved when UK and US stole the Aussie sub project from under their noses. They will not allow that to happen again.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

hnair wrote:Don’t know what Tellis actually is trying to convey. Maybe a resignation in west that India will restart a test campaign at Pokaran?
A test campaign in the lead-up to 2024 elections would be sweet :D , though Khan might use it as an opportunity to apply sanctions, which would also dent Modi's re-election bid. So, Modi might not do it - not worth the risk. If at all it happens, it might be post 2024 elections.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Rsatchi wrote:Tellis Pulao is probably because somethings serious cooking with regards to SSN and SSBN.
The video posted on the forum are to be believed then khan wants some eyes and ears into that programme!
was going to mention this., apparently the oncoming SSN and SSBN fleet is causing headaches to some in the west !!

STAY away from the Americans whichever way possible.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:Will the US be prepared to provide Virginia class propulsion plant along with plant and machinery for fabrication of said plants?
absolutely NOT.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Kersi »

Pratyush wrote:Will the US be prepared to provide Virginia class propulsion plant along with plant and machinery for fabrication of said plants?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Gagan »

Simplistically, the more the enrichment, the more reactor life one gets.
The latest US naval reactor the S9G has 93% U enrichment and lasts 33 yrs

The other important matter is how does the reactor drive the propellors
US, Russian, British and Indian subs, have steam turbine propulsion
The french and chinese (guess where the chinese got the tech?) generate electricity and use electric motors to drive the propellors

Naval nuclear propulsion is a vast field, not limited to the reactor alone
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Karan M »

My understanding is Tellis has a lot of "in" with the existing Indian Govt and prior ones. His latest book on the Indian nuclear deterrent (and those of Pak etc) is literally overweight with insider information. He acts as an interlocutor for both sides. He's basically signalling India will likely go to France for sub tech and US should facilitate it, not throw objections in the way, and even provide tech the Indians may want. This is borne out by reports we even approached the US for nsub tech. Second, he's signaling that India may need to retest, and again the US shouldn't sanction India.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by SSridhar »

I agree with your assessment, Karan.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Roop »

Gagan wrote: The french ... generate electricity and use electric motors to drive the propellors...
How do they do that?

We know what the Brits/Americans/Indians/Russians do: they take the output of the reactor (heat), generate steam and use the steam to drive a turbine. The turbine generates the motive power for both the propellors and the generators (to generate electricity).

But you're saying (at least by implication) that the French go directly from heat (i.e. the reactor) to electricity (i.e. the generators). How do they do that?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

The system generates electricity from the steam. That electrical power is then used to propel the submarine.

Even the US Navy had a submarine that used electric motor for propulsion.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... sn-685.htm

SSN-685 Glenard P. Lipscomb

The weight of the system was a major reason why the USN decided not to persue the system in the future submarines.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Kersi »

Pratyush wrote:The system generates electricity from the steam. That electrical power is then used to propel the submarine.

Even the US Navy had a submarine that used electric motor for propulsion.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... sn-685.htm

SSN-685 Glenard P. Lipscomb

The weight of the system was a major reason why the USN decided not to persue the system in the future submarines.
My thinkg. Correct me if I am wrong

OPTION 1
Reactor generates steam. Steam drive a turbine. Turbine powers the propeller. There would also be a small turbine+generator to generate electric power for other applications on the submarine. There would also be batteries to store "some" electric power.

OPTION 2
Reactor generates steam. Steam drive a turbine. Turbine drives an electric generator to generate electric power. Power is stored in batteries. The batteries supply electric power to an electric motor which drives the propeller.

I don't now the size of the batteries of OPTION 1 or OPTION 2 or a conventional diesel-electric submarine
Last edited by Kersi on 11 Nov 2022 17:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Prem Kumar »

From first principles, the method of driving the propellors via the steam generated will be more efficient than converting to electricity and using that to drive the propellors.

Why lose extra energy by adding 1 more step unless there are other significant advantages to be had?
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Pratyush »

Kersi,

Remove battery from your option 2 as an intermediate step for propulsion power. You will have a correct understanding of the US system.

Prem,

The system was not as reliable as regular system.

Coupled with extra weight. Resulted in it being a dead end for the USN.

However, it appears that the system was somewhat more quieter than the other system utilised during that time frame.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Gagan »

It is called a turbo electric drive system

Reactor generates electricity, and does not directly connect to the propeller/pumpjet gearbox
Naval nuclear propulsion is not limited to just the reactor itself. technologies also involve gearbox, power handling, and if a pumpjet is used - weather the pumpjet is shaft driven vs rim driven are also factors

The rim driven is relatively new and "2nd gen" tech, and supposedly quieter.

As usual, our lizzard friends are at the forefront of xeroxing the latest methods from the west
Image
Last edited by Gagan on 12 Nov 2022 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Gagan »

The recent MOU between GE and BHEL power handling and electric drive system for naval use is perhaps a pointer

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
State-run engineering firm Bharat Heavy Electricals Ltd (BHEL) has inked a pact with GE Power Conversion for the development of integrated electric propulsion systems for the Indian Navy. "The signing of a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) between BHEL and GE Power Conversion has provided a boost to the indigenous capability in the field of advanced technology for Integrated Full Electric Propulsion System," a statement said.
Meanwhile, a Joint Working Group on India-UK Electric Propulsion Capability Partnership has been set up with the goal of fostering military and industrial collaboration in maritime Electric Propulsion systems.
GE Power Conversion is a world leader in electric propulsion, with equipment installed on some of the latest platforms of the US Navy and the Royal Navy, including the Queen Elizabeth class of aircraft carriers.

These systems provide flexibility in selection and layout of power generation equipment and drive elements with enhancement of stealth features and fuel efficiency.
Keeping in mind the matured state of the technology and potential for integration, electric propulsion has been identified as a key technology for the Indian Navy on new construction platforms.
Focus seems to be on surface warships, but adaptability for sub use is there
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Gagan »

From another article:
First off, the space required for installation of electrical propulsion machinery is very less and compact as compared to the conventional systems. It also provides improved manoeuvrability and high redundancy.

Ships that use this technology are also more ‘green’ — owing to lower fuel consumption and emissions. The technology is also beneficial as it aids in reducing the life cycle cost by less fuel consumption and maintenance cost. Ships that use this technology also display high performance in harsh ice conditions due to maximum torque at zero speed.
The cost of installing this technology is significantly higher, making the ships themselves more expensive. Additionally, the efficiency of the electrical plant is less than that of a conventional system.
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Re: Indian Nuclear Submarines -3

Post by Vips »

Per a defence channel update:
-SSBN program will enter the production stage in 2027
-190 MW reactor will be developed and land based prototype will be tested for 2 years before integration in the first submarine.
-Before starting the Production work a new dockyard will be required for the 13,000 Ton SSBN at the ship building centre in Vishakapatnam.
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