Pathankot AirForce base under attack

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Gyan
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gyan » 03 Jan 2016 12:06

Raja Ram wrote:Cross posting from STFUP thread in other forum at the request of ramana


Based on the above there are a few things that can be inferred

1. The installations were informed and were in a state of alert. That is why the response was well coordinated once the initial contact was made.

2. The initial losses are very high, especially when you take into account that this was a pattern starting from attack on parliament to attacks on Army Camps in J&K, Kabul Embassy Attack, Gurdaspur attack etc. The initial contact claimed maximum casualty on perimeter guard duty. Given the alert, and the report of missing car of the police SP near the border in a case of carjacking; the perimeter guards should have been adequately protected with full body armor; reinforcing of approach defenses must have been in place way ahead of entry and a clear vantage view and surveillance should have been in place in all approaches. Indications are that these were not there or it was not adequate enough



You have not taken into consideration two very important points:-

In earlier examples given by you the initial contact came as surprise, but here we were fully prepared and waiting in our own re-enforced (?) positions.

Second as their phones were being actively tapped, we knew well in advance, the exact position of terrorists before they launched the initial attack. This should have been like Pig shoot.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gus » 03 Jan 2016 12:06

Gyan wrote:Almost all the local border action is done by Army officers on ground as their own risk. No credit to 56 inch.


give it a rest on the flaming. u have to be much more sophisticated than that to incite such stuff here.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Karan M » 03 Jan 2016 12:08

Rohits thanks for the list.

Punjab Police dysfunction and corruption has caused this bloodbath.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby kit » 03 Jan 2016 12:08

something does not gel .. why was the SP let off by the jihadis ? .. is it possible that he might have been aware / complicit ? .. given the massive drug influx into Punjab from across the border there is a very high chance that the police might be involved

Karan M
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Karan M » 03 Jan 2016 12:08

Gus wrote:
Gyan wrote:Almost all the local border action is done by Army officers on ground as their own risk. No credit to 56 inch.


give it a rest on the flaming. u have to be much more sophisticated than that to incite such stuff here.


Exactly.. its just trolling and to be honest, completely inappropriate at a time like this.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SBajwa » 03 Jan 2016 12:10

We have Rupan Katyal still waiting
We have Shaheed Sauribh Kalia still waiting!!
We have 100s and 1000s and 10000s and 100000s of shahids still waiting!

Comer
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Comer » 03 Jan 2016 12:10

@ibnlive
#PathankotAttack UPDATE : Firing started again; Reports say there's one terrorist still inside

‏@ibnlive
#PathankotAttack UPDATE | Intelligence sources: Attempts been made to catch terrorist alive

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 03 Jan 2016 12:13

Gyan wrote:This should have been like Pig shoot.

It was. Except the pig was hiding in the undergrowth and armed.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_29247 » 03 Jan 2016 12:14

There will be zero tolerance on terror, says Rajnath Singh


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 058942.ece

Thank God he is reassuring
Now. Can sleep with out tantrums
Jai Hind
Last edited by member_29247 on 03 Jan 2016 12:18, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Karan M » 03 Jan 2016 12:14

rohitvats wrote:From Twitter: List of casualties (with cause of casualty) admitted to Army Hospital. Some hakims on BRF can better comment.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4ZSikmOnJL0YU01MFE2RzdNaTg/view?usp=sharing


Not a hakeem. Except 1 all rest are in ICU.

Thats 5 people from the DSC at and above the age of 50, with serious Gun shot wounds (GSW) in the ICU (Dangerous Illness List?). Respect to these warriors. But their age and wounds make one concerned.

What this tells is the DSC took a very heavy number of casualties - of the 6 mortal remains (already dead), we know 4 were DSC. And 5 more in ICU?

So they were caught by surprise? The theory the terrorists broke in from a hidden/not sanitized entry point, makes sense.

Rohit, I am sorry to say this but you are dead on about the rushed in firefight. There is no other way to explain 10 IA and 8 NSG casualties, even accounting for the IEDs. They literally walked into the firestorm since these guys may have really got in deep.

In fact all these wounds seem quite serious (I presume and Shiv can correct me, the GSW would be marked lacerations if not full blown wounds) and hence the ICU admission has been made because of a reason and not "better safe than sorry".
Last edited by Karan M on 03 Jan 2016 12:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Tamang » 03 Jan 2016 12:18

I remember reading in a report that the SP was visiting some mazaar. Need to grill him and his friend. Despite knowing probable terror attack on airbase, we lost so many of our men shows that we need to revamp our tactics while responding to such attacks.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Jan 2016 12:18

ramana wrote:Shiv, We need to look at the SP story in depth. ...
Did he recognize the attackers from previous encounters?

May be SP was instructed to give an impression of being daft so that the terrorists get a false sense of going undetected. They did use SP's mobile, didn't they, were snooped upon.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby johneeG » 03 Jan 2016 12:20

rohitvats saar,
very nice deconstruction of the events. Pakistan using smuggling networks to wage proxy-war is standard by now. I think Bombay blasts by Dawood was also using the smuggling networks.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Satya_anveshi » 03 Jan 2016 12:21

cross posting from paki thread:
ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Office renewed on Saturday its offer to India to cooperate against terrorism.

“Pakistan remains committed to partner with India as well as other countries in the region to completely eradicate the menace of terrorism afflicting our region,” said an FO statement condemning the terrorist attack on an airbase in the Indian town of Pathankot.


Perhaps the above is taken at face value and hope they really cooperate.

Gurdaspur attack happened on July 27th. I am not linking anything but just observing:

Malik Ishaq and his entire top coterie was eliminated (July 29th). It is a different matter that after that incident, LeJ took out Pakjab's home minister Shuja Khanzada (on Aug 16th) so a price was paid by the civvies. Shuja Khanzada himself an ex-serviceman so may have been hand-in-glove with some of these elements as well.

Interestingly just a day before Shuja Khanzada died, Hamid Gul, the grand old man of Paki jihadis died (on Aug 15th) silently when some nerves in his brain wore soosai belts and exploded causing great mayhem within.

Hope to see Masood Azhar, Hafeez Sayeed etc meet the same fate even if actual response for Pathankot incident is due somewhere else.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Karan M » 03 Jan 2016 12:23

In fact 9-10 DSC casualties alone indicates a bunch of them were caught out in the open or not in a bunker or fortified position, indicating these terrorists broke in from a non fortified point. Hence not the main gate. These are not grenade injuries but GSW. It would take an act of fiction for a bunch of trained soldiers to take out 9 opponents behind fortifications with guns at the first pass.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Tamang » 03 Jan 2016 12:24

Was it an official vehicle? Surely terrorists would have noticed the beacon on vehicle's roof and guessed that it belonged to some high ranking official. Surely they would have grilled them about their identities, what was their response to those queries. Finally why would they let two people free knowing they will inform police and search ops will start.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 03 Jan 2016 12:27

Karan all the ICU injured appear to have dangerous wounds - or wounds in areas where there may be risk to life.

Yesterday I saw a report that 5 DSC and 1 Garud were killed right away and none were lost after that. Until today's grenade blast of course.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby M Joshi » 03 Jan 2016 12:29

The Tribune : Local Leader's Role suspected

Security Forces & Intelligence Agencies are strongly suspecting the role of a local political leader for helping the group of terrorists who attacked the Pathankot Air Force Station.
:evil:

Didn't mention the name or the party.

http://epaper.tribuneindia.com/682343/T ... nuary_2016

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gyan » 03 Jan 2016 12:29

shiv wrote:
Gyan wrote:This should have been like Pig shoot.

It was. Except the pig was hiding in the undergrowth and armed.


Therefore there is some serious short coming in our Basic equipment required for light infantry like Machine Guns, thermal imagers, BPJs, stun grenades, Comms, light robots like Daksh, shields etc.
Last edited by Gyan on 03 Jan 2016 12:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ashish raval » 03 Jan 2016 12:34

Did we have adequate snipers positioned with night vision especially when forces had time to prepare?

Think we should have 10 km radius of all the bases covered with CCTV 24x7.
Last edited by ashish raval on 03 Jan 2016 12:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Jan 2016 12:34

JohneeG: why do you think we are not prepared (to go to war with Pakistan)? That said, war is hard.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Jan 2016 12:37

One (stupid?) question - how heavy is a mortar to carry around? I am thinking the mortar rounds and the mortar to fire the rounds is quite heavy.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gyan » 03 Jan 2016 12:38

Karan M wrote:In fact 9-10 DSC casualties alone indicates a bunch of them were caught out in the open or not in a bunker or fortified position, indicating these terrorists broke in from a non fortified point. Hence not the main gate. These are not grenade injuries but GSW. It would take an act of fiction for a bunch of trained soldiers to take out 9 opponents behind fortifications with guns at the first pass.


There were some reports that first contact took place in admin building (?) So was it in open (?). Taking out 5-9-10 armed soldiers in a building, who are all expecting an attack is very difficult even if the position is not "fortified". There is some serious over-sight or lapse + lack of some basic equipment for our personnel and "both" these issues is being covered up.

Am not attributing malafides but simply saying that some important lessons should be learned and imbibed. Compare Operation Blue Star to Black Thunder.
Last edited by Gyan on 03 Jan 2016 12:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby partha » 03 Jan 2016 12:39

whoa! 2 pigs still inside the airbase. Op continues.
Last edited by partha on 03 Jan 2016 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gyan » 03 Jan 2016 12:39

Gus wrote:
Gyan wrote:Almost all the local border action is done by Army officers on ground as their own risk. No credit to 56 inch.


give it a rest on the flaming. u have to be much more sophisticated than that to incite such stuff here.


So All Credit for all the good work anywhere in India must be given but criticism is trolling? Why should politicians get credit for risk and sacrifice of soldiers when they are ones who handicap them? Has BPJs and Thermal Imagers have been ordered with same alacrity has Billion dollars deals for fancy items?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Vikas » 03 Jan 2016 12:42

Sorry for the rant but why do we see so many defense personal getting killed in these Anti-terrorist ops ?
Is this nature of the Ops or do we need better training and ammunition.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_29247 » 03 Jan 2016 12:43

One round trip in AOC will tell you how well we are prepared.
There are lot of hawkers selling their wares in close proximity to many strategic locations.

This is the c are in most Cantt centers, where Army lands have been encroached and easy to eavesdrop

We have long ways to go to fortify our installations.

Once again the providential hand protected the country.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attac

Postby bahdada » 03 Jan 2016 12:45

Gyan wrote:Almost all the local border action is done by Army officers on ground as their own risk. No credit to 56 inch.

So All Credit for all the good work anywhere in India must be given but criticism is trolling? Why should politicians get credit for risk and sacrifice of soldiers when they are ones who handicap them? Has BPJs and Thermal Imagers have been ordered with same alacrity has Billion dollars deals for fancy items?


It's not the time. Ops are apparently continuing based on hearsay. One has to resist the urge to armchair this right now.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ArmenT » 03 Jan 2016 12:45

vayu tuvan wrote:One (stupid?) question - how heavy is a mortar to carry around? I am thinking the mortar rounds and the mortar to fire the rounds is quite heavy.

Depends on the type of mortar. There are lightweight ones around and many military forces use them. For instance, 0341 designation in USMC is mortarman. Typically, one person carries the mortar and the rest of the team divide the projectiles between them.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby VikramS » 03 Jan 2016 12:47

The loss of life of the NSG officer due to booby-trapped body of the Tango is again an completely avoidable loss.

There is absolutely no reason not to have small robotic vehicles to check out the body first and drag it around before exposing the officer.

It is not a question of money or capability, its a question of will.

I know of undergraduate college teams in India designing robotic vehicles for international competitions; why can't the armed forces get their own suite to handle such situations?

These robots can be useful even in your typical Kashmir encounter where the bad guys are holed up in a building and the good guys try to smoke them out.

Feel so sad..

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gyan » 03 Jan 2016 12:47

partha wrote:whoa! 2 pigs still inside the airbase. Op continues.


Source?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby geeth » 03 Jan 2016 12:48

There are 2 more terrorists inside Indian Air force Base in #Pathankot, operation continuing-DIG (Border)Kunwar Vijay Pratap Singh to ANI

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Jan 2016 12:50

ArmenT thanks, so even light weight mortar requires several people to carry the mortar itself and the projectiles.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2016 12:55

The nature of the Gun-Shot Wounds might hold a clue to what happened in the initial contact:

All the injuries suffered by DSC men are in the upper torso - Chest and Shoulders; IMO, these wounds were suffered as the terrorists fired at an unsuspecting security detail after initial break-in or when DSC+Garud rushed towards the initial contact point. The second scenario would mean what I had said earlier - after an initial group made contact, the second group lay waiting for QRT to respond and ambushed them.

The second round of casualties would be more from CQB.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2016 12:58

vayu tuvan wrote:One (stupid?) question - how heavy is a mortar to carry around? I am thinking the mortar rounds and the mortar to fire the rounds is quite heavy.


Wikipedia tells me that the 52mm or 2inch mortar is under 5 kg with each HE shell weighing under 1 kg. A team of 5-7 terrorists on way ticket can easily carry one along with 15-20 rounds between them.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby nirav » 03 Jan 2016 12:59

Gyan wrote:
Gyan wrote:Almost all the local border action is done by Army officers on ground as their own risk. No credit to 56 inch.


So All Credit for all the good work anywhere in India must be given but criticism is trolling? Why should politicians get credit for risk and sacrifice of soldiers when they are ones who handicap them? Has BPJs and Thermal Imagers have been ordered with same alacrity has Billion dollars deals for fancy items?


Theres a difference between criticism and name calling just for the heck of it.

No one either here or the PM has "taken credit" for border action by IA/BSF.
Dont understand the need for you to talk credits/debits wrt the current scenario.

Also, procurement of things deemed vital is determined by the forces. The PM doesnt veto their requirements saying dont buy BPJs/TIs, buy billion dollar stuff fancy items only. :roll:

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ArmenT » 03 Jan 2016 13:05

vayu tuvan wrote:ArmenT thanks, so even light weight mortar requires several people to carry the mortar itself and the projectiles.

Depends on how many projectiles are carried. For instance, one model that the OFB makes weighs under 4.9 kg. for the mortar and each projectile for it weighs around 850 gm. Therefore, a two man mortar team could carry a fair amount by themselves. One person carries the mortar, a rifle and a few projectiles. The second man carries a rifle and the remaining projectiles. Alternatively, many people can carry the projectiles between them and drop them off at a specific point where the mortarman (and possibly assistant) can set up. Note that the OFB mortar model is operable by one man.

References:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/weapons/wme/1.htm
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/mb/5.htm

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Comer » 03 Jan 2016 13:12

Will carrying so many ordinance fit the profile of a drug mule?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby RoyG » 03 Jan 2016 13:14

Wow 2 Garuds and 1 NSG among 10 dead so far. These jihadis knew what they were doing. They probably weren't SSG either. Pakistan isn't going to sacrifice its precious specialists just yet. Our whole security apparatus needs a revamp including special forces training. This is simply unacceptable given that alert was issued, IB monitoring, and base security had taken up a defensive position.
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby RoyG » 03 Jan 2016 13:21

2 JeM jihadis have slipped into Delhi. Looks like we're going to have another round.


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