Pathankot AirForce base under attack

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Mihaylo
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Mihaylo » 04 Jan 2016 06:05

Shreeman wrote:Perhaps we should use chemicals to incapacitate atleast one porki and get him alive.
Need to locate him accurately first. No reliable chemicals exist for this, but other methods can be used.

shiv,

While incapacitating a closed space filled with hostages without the takers realizing the event is difficult, this is not that situation. Of course chemicals exist. Yes, you do have to locate the target first.

One questions what you do with a turd, if you do pluck it out of a toilet. Didnt the judicial execution of the last one lead ro rallies?
[/quote]

Why aren't we using the DRDO created chilli grenades. We can even film them surrendering in true Paki fashion.

-M

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby rohitvats » 04 Jan 2016 06:08

Here is a map with important locations about terrorist entry, pick-up and car-jacking.

Image

Description of points:

1. Bamiyal - entry point from IB for 1 known group of terrorists

2. Kathlana/Kathana - probable location where one group was picked up by Innova cab

3. Narot Jaimal Singh - the location of shrine which the Punjab Police SP was supposed to have visited before his carjacking

4. Kathlour - the location where SP's vehicle was carjacked. His report, and that of his cook, says that they were carjacked at a location prior to this known as Kolian. Not very far, it is west of location marked on the map. The Innova and body of the driver was recovered from here as well

5. Bhagwal - the native village of the Innova cab driver. Conveniently, very close to the pick-up point of one group of terrorists.

YELLOW Dot - that is the Pathankot AFS.

Unknown: Where was the SP's vehicle dumped? Initial reports before the attack on AFS say that terrorists had driven the vehicle towards Damtal hills and vehicle was abandoned in a village which falls in Himachal Pradesh (HP).

You can make out Damtal east of the Pathankot AFS across the Chakki river - this area falls in HP.

So, quite likely we had three teams attacking the base:

1. One from south where canal exits the base. This was most likely the diversion meant to tie-down response from our side.

2. One from west - this was the one holed in a building towards west; most probably could not find the bridge on the canal required to cross from this side of the base to civil airport area and technical area

3. One team from east across the Chakki river.

Awaiting further details.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2016 06:09

SwamyG wrote:Why create a base in an indefensible area (or a place with vulnerabilities). There must be places close to border that can match up, right?

SwamyG its your mis-appreciation of history that is wrong, not your identification of location. These air bases - esp Pathankot was made many decades ago - pre-independence when perimeter security was less of an issue. With terrorists having better communication, NVGs, RDX and electronic timers, RPGs. survival kits, all weather clothing, special forces nowadays are way more effective than they used to be in the 1940s or even 1960s. And these terorists are essentially "special forces" with the same training. The irony is that those "old defences" like moats, fences, rivers, jungle overgrowth, nullahs and walls used to be effective in an older type of warfare, and newer warfare is designed specifically to overcome old style defences. 25 sq km (6000 plus acre) air bases cannot simply be shifted randomly. Defences have to be changed to move with the times. Despite the losses they have kept the base safe. In the meantime populations have grown limiting the ability of the base to simply expand and change the terrain to make it more favourable for defence.

The fact is that the defences worked, even if men were killed. They will need some tweaking which will be done I'm sure. In 1965 Pakistan had paradropped SSG forces to take Pathankot and it failed then; Failed again

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2016 06:14

Shreeman wrote:
While incapacitating a closed space filled with hostages without the takers realizing the event is difficult, this is not that situation. Of course chemicals exist. Yes, you do have to locate the target first.

One questions what you do with a turd, if you do pluck it out of a toilet. Didnt the judicial execution of the last one lead to rallies?

No Shreeman - the chemicals to incapacitate and not kill are even less effective in open spaces.

Temporary incapacitation by flashes/bangs or loud sound or flushing out with tear gas is possible, but "incapacitation to take alive" is mostly a myth, I would be happy to talk about specific chemicals and why there is such rare usage outside of Bond style movies and one Russian incident.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2016 06:17

Mihaylo wrote:
Why aren't we using the DRDO created chilli grenades. We can even film them surrendering in true Paki fashion.

-M

You have to know where they are first. After that you can use a thousand methods. COIN is a game of hide and seen in jungle/rocky terrain/built up areas where the hidden person is armed and is watching the searcher. If the latter knows where the other guys is he can do all sorts of things

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Kati » 04 Jan 2016 06:24

haven't we enhanced the covert ops inside TSP yet in the last year and half?
They only understand that language only while overt "Peace Process" goes on.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 04 Jan 2016 06:29

shiv, I recognize its role in 65 and 71, however like you point out I did not connect it to pre-independence. So that is clearly my mistake. If the base cannot be abandoned or moved, then it is a clear case of improving its security. Only if the cost is so prohibitive can it make sense to absorb the causality cost.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby chandrasekaran » 04 Jan 2016 06:31

The need of the hour is overt military operation - not covert - which actually IS seen as act of war, both by the pigs and their western handlers

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2016 06:34

SwamyG wrote:shiv, I recognize its role in 65 and 71, however like you point out I did not connect it to pre-independence. So that is clearly my mistake. If the base cannot be abandoned or moved, then it is a clear case of improving its security. Only if the cost is so prohibitive can it make sense to absorb the causality cost.

As a wild guesstimate I would say (for India) there is a 10 year gap between new terrorist tech and countermeasures. If Terrorists are using NVGs and stealth today India will institute widespread use of UAVs, IR/foliage penetrating radar and electronic defences in about 10 years. By which time the terrorists will start something new - maybe portable lasers to blind UAVs or something.

I think the right attitude for India will be to resolve to continue the war forever and stop chasing a mythical peace

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby kulhari » 04 Jan 2016 06:37

It is only a matter of time before last porki would be cornered and then we should use chemicals.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby kulhari » 04 Jan 2016 06:40

shiv wrote:I think the right attitude for India will be to resolve to continue the war forever and stop chasing a mythical peace


Yes it is a fight to the finish. Time is immaterial. Even if it takes 1000 generations every last porki must be killed.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 04 Jan 2016 06:41

If the thief is going to be always ahead of the cops, then only making it costly for the handlers makes sense. For every punch, India punches back. Both sides will hit and miss, the last guy standing or the guy with more hits win. Maybe be the 1000 cuts are going to bring down Pakistan.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2016 06:41

kulhari wrote:It is only a matter of time before last porki would be cornered and then we should use chemicals.

How would we know if a particular cornered rat is the last one and there are no others?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Yagnasri » 04 Jan 2016 06:50

We need their local supporters. We ignored that during Mumbai attacks. We can not ignore that in Punjab. Not with Khalisthan gang trying to come back.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 06:51

Guys, Unobtanium solutions like chemicals are not worthy of repeating here. NSG officer died for lack of Bomb disposal equipment and you want chemicals!

Are Ops still going on?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Shreeman » 04 Jan 2016 06:55

shiv wrote:
Shreeman wrote:
While incapacitating a closed space filled with hostages without the takers realizing the event is difficult, this is not that situation. Of course chemicals exist. Yes, you do have to locate the target first.

One questions what you do with a turd, if you do pluck it out of a toilet. Didnt the judicial execution of the last one lead to rallies?

No Shreeman - the chemicals to incapacitate and not kill are even less effective in open spaces.

Temporary incapacitation by flashes/bangs or loud sound or flushing out with tear gas is possible, but "incapacitation to take alive" is mostly a myth, I would be happy to talk about specific chemicals and why there is such rare usage outside of Bond style movies and one Russian incident.


shiv,

http://newswatch28.com/fda-approves-tranquilizer-dart-guns-that-puts-kids-to-sleep/ --is fake news,but the point stands re. technology/chemicals, vet medicine has evidence re. exotic animals.

4 seconds is consumer grade then one wonders about the rest. You dont need to use one method either, combinations can be quite effective. We are dinosaurs, the world is in another place now.
Last edited by Shreeman on 04 Jan 2016 06:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 06:56

Shreeman,
Does India have that?
If not its like those robots for which VikramS got warned.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Mihaylo » 04 Jan 2016 06:57

shiv wrote:
Mihaylo wrote:
Why aren't we using the DRDO created chilli grenades. We can even film them surrendering in true Paki fashion.

-M

You have to know where they are first. After that you can use a thousand methods. COIN is a game of hide and seen in jungle/rocky terrain/built up areas where the hidden person is armed and is watching the searcher. If the latter knows where the other guys is he can do all sorts of things



"....air force officials said they had been isolated in one corner of the base..."
I suspect they are not in the open but holed up inside one of the structures. Perfect for a a$$ burning salvo of chilli grenades.

-M

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Shreeman » 04 Jan 2016 06:59

ramana wrote:Shreeman,
Does India have that?
If not its like those robots for which VikramS got warned.


ramana,

that particular news item is fake. However, exoric animal tranquilizers are common, even in india.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 07:04

Alll right need to step in.
Next one suggesting chemical attack will get banned.

You don't understand what you are suggesting.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2016 07:11

Shreeman wrote:
4 seconds is consumer grade then one wonders about the rest. You dont need to use one method either, combinations can be quite effective. We are dinosaurs, the world is in another place now.

Shreeman vet medicine is also the analogy I was thinking of - but not dart guns which require precise location of the target. No trained terrorist will expose himself. That apart dart guns are short range low velocity and being within dart gun range is being well within terrorist Kalashnikov kill radius. There is virtually no veterinary application of "volume/area chemicals" to incapacitate troublesome beasts

Area/volume weapons such as chili grenades or tear gas are probably best to flush out - but the man may come out shooting, Anaesthetic gases need a very specific ratio of oxygen+gas administered continuously to maintain an unconscious state. Too much gas and the person dies. Too little gas and he stays awake. Of course all gases are subject to dispersal based on prevailing winds in open spaces.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 07:15

shiv let it be.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sunilUpa » 04 Jan 2016 07:17

The difference between safe dose to incapacitate a person and the dose required to kill the person is very narrow for the type of chemicals that can be used in these situations. Russians tried Sufentanyl (a derivative of fentanyl which is a potent opioid) and killed half the hostages.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 07:24

sunilUPa didn't read my post? No more chemicals.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Shameek » 04 Jan 2016 07:32

Any public information on the resumption of the operation? Most media outlets seem to have moved on to the blame game and analyzing how this was again a massive failure. :shock:

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jan 2016 07:34

It is pathetic that the Punjab Police did not believe its own top officer, the SP who got abducted by these terrorists ! They called him a 'colourful character' and if it was true why was he in service at all?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 07:36

SP role under scanner

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160104/j ... ondurFdbCQ


Pathankot, Jan. 3: One question has been rearing its head through the sound of explosions in Pathankot: what exactly was the role played by Salwinder Singh?

Salwinder was the superintendent of police in Gurdaspur (headquarters) till recently. Now he is on course to take over as the assistant commander of the 75th Battalion of the Punjab Armed Police.

It was on Salwinder's blue-beaconed car that the attackers are suspected to have reached somewhere near the Pathankot air force base.


The Punjab police are portraying Salwinder as a hero who managed to hoodwink the terrorists, slipped out of their hands and alerted the security establishment, which helped save the "high-value assets" in the air base.

But some residents, who did not want to be named for fear of the police, are asking the obvious questions such as why the terrorists had chosen to free him and risk being caught. They also wondered why he had travelled with a friend but not his gunman on New Year's Eve night.

Salwinder could not be contacted but police sources said he had been let off because the terrorists did not realise he was a police officer as he was in plainclothes. But it is still not clear why even a civilian would be released by a terrorist squad on its way to attack a high-security installation.

The police sources explained the absence of the gunman by saying that Salwinder was returning from a shrine and it was normal practice for state policemen to pay obeisance at places of worship after a transfer or a promotion.

The sequence of events after Salwinder was allegedly pushed out of the car, either late on Thursday night or in the small hours of Friday, is still sketchy. Most accounts put the time around 2am on Friday.

The attack on the air base did not begin for another 24 hours. If Salwinder had promptly alerted the chain of command, it is not clear why the terrorists were not intercepted before they entered the premises.

Salwinder's mobile phone was snatched by the terrorists who apparently used it to converse with their alleged cross-border handlers, while also taking a call from the officer's gunman who was worrying about his boss amid reports that he had been abducted.

Sources said Salwinder contacted a villager who helped him get in touch with Gurdaspur senior superintendent of police G.S. Toor. Toor contacted his Pathankot counterpart, R.K. Bakshi, who sounded a red alert in the district and informed the Pathankot air base and intelligence agencies. Pathankot is high on the security list because of the presence of several key installations. :?:

"The moment we received information from Salwinder, we swung into action. We informed every security agency about the incident," a senior police officer claimed. :?:

Some police sources - no one was willing to be quoted on the sensitive security matter - said Salwinder was initially not taken seriously by his seniors. (A PTI report said Salwinder was "shunted out" to his new posting. Neither the reason for it, nor whether it was a factor in his account being allegedly taken lightly initially, is clear.)

But Punjab deputy chief minister Sukhbir Singh Badal challenged such claims. "The information we had after Salwinder's abduction was taken seriously. That is why NSG commandos were inside the airbase before the terrorists struck," Badal said.

However, Madan Gopal, Salwinder's cook who was in the officer's car while it was being commandeered by the militants, told journalists in Gurdaspur that he had been beaten by Punjab police even after telling them of the events of the night before the attack on the Pathankot airbase.

According to information gleaned from journalists in Gurdaspur, Gopal (some reporters identified him as Mohan Lal) said he was returning with Salwinder and the officer's friend, Rajesh Verma, from a shrine.

It was close to midnight when five men in disruptive-pattern uniforms and carrying rifles stopped the vehicle near a village named Kuliyan. The men were standing by another car that seemed to have crashed. It later transpired that the driver of that car had been knifed to death.

Gopal said Salwinder's car was being driven by Verma, a jeweller.

Speaking in Punjabi, Gopal told reporters that the men pulled them down and bound and gagged them. Then they were pushed back into the car and forced to kneel while three of the militants sat on Singh, Verma and the cook.

Gopal said he could not understand the language the attackers were speaking.

Gopal and Salwinder were dumped in a forested area around 2 in the morning on Friday. The attackers took Verma away in the car. Salwinder managed to untie himself and told Gopal that they should get out of the forest. He untied Gopal.

After a walk of nearly two hours, they reached a village from where Salwinder called his superior and told him that the attackers could be militants.

Gopal himself had served with the Punjab police and had been re-employed after retirement last year. He rued that his long years of service should fetch him such torture, such as the beating by the police.

Sources in Delhi said a preliminary probe suggested that the attackers may have stationed themselves within the complex since January 1 afternoon. The attack began between 3 and 3.30am on January 2.

The cell tower for most of the calls made by the terrorists from the mobile phone was the same, the sources said. This has led the investigators to suspect that the attackers were hiding in the wooded area of the base, which is spread over 1,800 to 2,000 acres.


Drug trail

The attackers apparently used a route frequented by drug smugglers - a revelation that can gift fresh ammunition to the Opposition against the Akali Dal-BJP government in Punjab.

The Opposition Congress has been repeatedly claiming that the drug mafia has flourished under the current dispensation.

The attackers are suspected to have infiltrated through Bamiyal village, located close to the international border. A tributary of the river Beas enters Pakistan from this village and the route, thick with elephant grass, is kept serviceable by the drug smugglers.



I think Punjab Police has lot to answer and lying about efficiency wont let them off as so many military personnel died.

DGP and chain of command has to be fired if they don't resign.

After Gurdaspur terrorist atvack what has DGP done for preventive action?

zero.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby fanne » 04 Jan 2016 07:38

Why would a bunch of special ops guys (who have managed to do decent harm and still finding, though probably failed in their main mission, unless dilli 26th Jan is the main mission) leave SP or anyone alive to ruin their plan? in 26/11 they killed everyone kidnapped. Why they would make such a big mistake? Is this SP letting on less than he knows?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jan 2016 07:40

Mihaylo wrote:Why aren't we using the DRDO created chilli grenades. We can even film them surrendering in true Paki fashion.
-M


If memory serves me right, RR had recently used DRDO chilli grenades in a Kashmir COIN Op. If it isn't used here, there might be good reasons. The capability & willingness to use exists

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 07:42

SS you need to be on twitter....

Prem Kumar Chilli grenade could brutus fulmen!!!

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Ankit Desai » 04 Jan 2016 07:42

News Flash: Fresh troops sent into Pathankot AFB; intermittent firing underway

-Ankit

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Tejas.P » 04 Jan 2016 07:49

The Punjab Police's complicity in the drug smuggling nexus has clearly led to an unsecure border all along that region. What steps can the Centre take in the next couple of months to plug in these gaps? Can CRPF be called in? Is that politically feasible?

Awaiting comment from experts. Thanks.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 07:53

All serve at pleasure of President. NaMo can recommend dismissal and no political baap can save them.

Punjab Police DGP needs to be shown displeasure for not acting after Gurdaspur terrorist attack.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Yagnasri » 04 Jan 2016 07:59

Not going to happen. Akalis are into drug business in a big way as per the report. PP is not the same force what fought the anti-terror war and won long back. There is no political will in Akalis. They will lose the next elections now.

I think we need to wait till this attack is over and see what happens.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ManSingh » 04 Jan 2016 08:00

ramana wrote:All serve at pleasure of President. NaMo can recommend dismissal and no political baap can save them.

Punjab Police DGP needs to be shown displeasure for not acting after Gurdaspur terrorist attack.


Punjab police DGP was changed between Gurdaspur incident and now. The current incumbent has been on job for around 2 months only.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2016 08:03

then fire him too for the PP failure to take an SP level officer statement seriously and causing so many personnel deaths in the attack.

What about beating a driver (former policeman) who just survived a terrorist carjack and rifle butts beating all along? Some one in PP has to pay.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Altair » 04 Jan 2016 08:15

Just in: Fresh Firing and Explosions heard.

Meanwhile,People gather to pay respects to Lt.Col.Niranjan Kumar in BEL Grounds, Bengaluru.

I request folks here typing away from Bengaluru to just stop what they are doing and show your support by visiting the hero.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby pratik » 04 Jan 2016 08:24

NSG must be sending Piglitant to his Zannat. So we will hear all sorts of noises.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Tejas.P » 04 Jan 2016 08:36

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/pat ... nrnvJ.html

“The two terrorists who remained hidden at the air base and exchanged fire with security personnel on Sunday were part of another team of terrorists that had entered the vast air base area. We also suspect that they might have reached there in another vehicle,” said a senior security official on the condition of anonymity.


The terrorists holed up inside the base might have traveled separately from the first cell. Search ongoing for their vehicle.

Security agencies halted the combing operation late in the night to prevent chances of their personnel incurring further casualties, stating that it would be resumed at first light. They said the operation would be deemed complete only after the bodies of the terrorists are recovered.


Explains fresh firing being exchanged. Hope they are neutralised swiftly.
Last edited by Tejas.P on 04 Jan 2016 08:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby kenop » 04 Jan 2016 08:43

Mention of Damtal forest region in the print edition of TOI on Friday had surprised me. At that time I thought maybe the vehicle was coming from Himachal side. In that region to be really away from human contact is quite a stretch as
1. To be isolated/out of reach one has to be actually marched out to the forest away from GT road
2. Road is pretty busy at any time
Not clear where action was going on.
2 hours to reach out is quite a lot of time. However, reports also mentioned that by 0330 alerts had gone out. So, it may just be sloppy reporting.


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