Pathankot AirForce base under attack

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
shaun
BRFite
Posts: 929
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 08:51

shiv saab , points taken but i used those precise words lethargic and ill prepared with respect to perimeter defense because , considering intels helped us to prevent past attacks but what have prevented us to make the perimeter of our military and strategic assets more secure ? take the case of pathankot AFB , its a huge base and to man each and every inch of the perimeter will require N number of sentries . This type of base require human as well as electronic eyes 24X7 . I would not be surprised if some portion of that perimeter is devoid of illumination. Threat to these bases will always remain high but little have been done to properly equip the gate keepers . This particular AFB can be declared as pathankot reserve forest.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 08:51

Austin wrote:I think if there is no kinetic reaction to IAF AFB attack it will become OK henceforth to attack IAF Bases any where in India and would become a New Normal.

Much like our lack of military reaction in a pro-active manner lead to us being tolerant to Terrorism in Kashmir , Parliament Attack , 26/11 and multiple bomb blast that occurred so on and so forth as the GOI of the Day considered it to be OK which can be dealt diplomatically.

May be this time IAF got lucky with none of its asset harmed but sadly and regrettably with precious life lost inspite of prior intel but next time we may not have intel and IAF may not be lucky not to loose capital assets.

Austin this attack received more publicity than others, but army camps and BSF/security forces buses have been attacked on a regular basis. We have had no public response to any of those. Also there are constant reports of infiltration and dozens of Pakis killed at the LoC. Each and every one of these incidents is a more serious attack that has been prevented at the border. This attack was not stopped at the border, that's all.

Either we have no way of responding
or
There are responses that we do not know about
or
There is a deliberate policy not to respond

I heave reason to believe that all three are true to some extent, although I would prefer a fourth option "Visible vicious retribution"

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 08:58

Shaun wrote:shiv saab , points taken but i used those precise words lethargic and ill prepared with respect to perimeter defense because , considering intels helped us to prevent past attacks but what have prevented us to make the perimeter of our military and strategic assets more secure ? take the case of pathankot AFB , its a huge base and to man each and every inch of the perimeter will require N number of sentries . This type of base require human as well as electronic eyes 24X7 . I would not be surprised if some portion of that perimeter is devoid of illumination. Threat to these bases will always remain high but little have been done to properly equip the gate keepers . This particular AFB can be declared as pathankot reserve forest.


Boss the perimeter was secure and kept secure by perimeter security guards. Some were unfortunately killed while ensuring that security. Are you asking that security should occur without deaths and injuries? Or are you implying that there should be one more security layer around the perimeter guards so that they don't get hurt?

I think you are revealing your own ignorance of reality when you say "each and every inch should have a guard". I mean no disrespect but only people who have lived an active outdoor life of hiking and mountaineering understand the meaning of terrain and why each and every inch cannot have a guard or camera. We have too many people who have no idea of what the outdoors is like. Too many people with knowledge from TV monitors/screens

madhu
BRFite
Posts: 212
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 17:00
Location: India

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby madhu » 05 Jan 2016 08:59

Why the Pathankot op has gone on for so long
blame game started.....
if Doval wishes to provide real options to his boss, he must stop dabbling in day-to-day intelligence operations and, instead, coordinate the development of strike options that are a viable alternative to stalling the dialogue (yawn from Islamabad) yet again

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 929
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 09:02

ManSingh wrote:I understand your pain but this point regarding parliament breach etc is not a just measure of our preparedness. Just as a reminder, in a similar incident in Canada, a lone attacker managed to enter inside the parliament hall before being subdued. Surely no one calls Canada a weak lethargic country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

My point being: There is only so much defence can do. Unless cost is imposed on actual perpetrators, no amount of shields/defences will guarantee absolute security.

We have a different threat perception . Agree offense is the best defense , but i find only reaction and no action , that's the hard truth.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21980
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2016 09:03

shiv wrote:Austin this attack received more publicity than others, but army camps and BSF/security forces buses have been attacked on a regular basis. We have had no public response to any of those. Also there are constant reports of infiltration and dozens of Pakis killed at the LoC. Each and every one of these incidents is a more serious attack that has been prevented at the border. This attack was not stopped at the border, that's all.

Either we have no way of responding
or
There are responses that we do not know about
or
There is a deliberate policy not to respond

I heave reason to believe that all three are true to some extent, although I would prefer a fourth option "Visible vicious retribution"


That is correct this time the visibility is high , perhaps the scale of attack is carried out by well trained commando type Fidayedeen and it comes just a week after PM visits.

As for response I think the perennial fear at South Block is what if a surgical strike inside POK leads to full scale war that Delli may not be able to control , also the international reaction and economic hits.

A lot of countries that might condemn terror attack on Indian AFB might just turn hostile if India were to attack POK and so called attacking a soverign country and specially the West might just impose sanction on Pak/India , I expect the Gelf too come into aid of Pak as in past when Pak invokes the Islamic alarm bell.

Its alright for any party to come to power with election tough talks on Pakistan but a tough ask to walk the talk

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2853
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Shanmukh » 05 Jan 2016 09:08

Thanks, Shiv-saar. Getting a feel for why so many combing operations of the army/police fail. This business of searching for hidden pigs in forests (or worse, urban areas) is worse than searching for needles in a haystack.

On that related note, I see that these pigs have been fighting for more than 60 hours now. One might say these are the Jihadi elite. Wonder how many of these elite Jihadis Pakistan has & how these Jihadi skills will filter down to the rest of the Jihadis. We are going to see better & better Jihadis in future, I guess ....

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8096
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gus » 05 Jan 2016 09:24

Over a period of a month, even if a dozen of ours are killed in a border area, we seldom notice...sure it is reported in news, somebody posts in internal security thread etc, attracts a few posts and that's it.

if one or two are killed, it does not even make it to BRF.

we all draw lines and that line is keep getting pushed...i wonder where it will stop..like the atom bomb at jingopura

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 05 Jan 2016 09:25

Shiv, you keep bringing terrain, jungle, hide and seek etc. Isn't India considered one of the best in the jungle and mountain warfare? Would the combing operation require scanning every inch by human eyes? Don't we use Perimeter Surveillance Radar? India is supposed to have 1400 of BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battl ... ance_Radar

While I do not expect Hollywood type of action and capture of the terrorists, but even if India is behind the technology curve, some of these have developed in India as late as 2000.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 09:38

SwamyG wrote:Shiv, you keep bringing terrain, jungle, hide and seek etc. Isn't India considered one of the best in the jungle and mountain warfare? Would the combing operation require scanning every inch by human eyes? Don't we use Perimeter Surveillance Radar? India is supposed to have 1400 of BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battl ... ance_Radar


Being the best in jungle warfare does not mean that battles will be won without casualties, or that enemies will never even enter the jungle without being detected. I think there is a gross underestimation of what mountain and jungle means. There are some areas that simply cannot be fenced. If the zone extends very far from the base it serves as a buffer area that is difficult to pemetrate by the casual intruder - not as a sterilized secure area, In the case of the air base the walled/fenced inner perimeter/inner sanctum was never breached. You can spot it on Google earth if you look. Everything was in the outer buffer zone which has areas that cannot be fenced
Last edited by shiv on 05 Jan 2016 09:44, edited 1 time in total.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 929
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 09:40

shiv wrote:Boss the perimeter was secure and kept secure by perimeter security guards. Some were unfortunately killed while ensuring that security. Are you asking that security should occur without deaths and injuries? Or are you implying that there should be one more security layer around the perimeter guards so that they don't get hurt?

I think you are revealing your own ignorance of reality when you say "each and every inch should have a guard". I mean no disrespect but only people who have lived an active outdoor life of hiking and mountaineering understand the meaning of terrain and why each and every inch cannot have a guard or camera. We have too many people who have no idea of what the outdoors is like. Too many people with knowledge from TV monitors/screens


with due respect sir , what have hiking and mountaineering have do with an operational air base !!! Just look at the base , its thick forest every where , even some portion of the roads parallel to the perimeter boundary have vegetation and foliage on both sides. The canal passing ,have thick vegetation facing the air base . with dry rations these pigs can last for weeks and mount surprise attacks.

Perimeter security guards killed some pigs but the rest some how infiltrated the campus avoiding detection . That failure started even before if this is true
"With preliminary evidence suggesting that the terrorists who attacked the Pathankot IAF base attack used the canal route of Ravi river and then passed Bamiyal village, there may have been a serious technical security lapse as the thermal imager located between two BSF posts was not working"
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Pathankot-attack-Faulty-thermal-imagers-allowed-intrusion/articleshow/50446275.cms

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 09:45

Shaun wrote:with due respect sir , what have hiking and mountaineering have do with an operational air base !!!

That question is exactly what I mean. If you knew you would not ask. If you ask you do not know.

If you are a techie, you should know why BSF security cameras stop working. They should work like my laptop no. No failures

SidSom
BRFite
Posts: 119
Joined: 01 May 2011 07:49

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SidSom » 05 Jan 2016 09:48

SwamyG wrote:Shiv, you keep bringing terrain, jungle, hide and seek etc. Isn't India considered one of the best in the jungle and mountain warfare? Would the combing operation require scanning every inch by human eyes? Don't we use Perimeter Surveillance Radar? India is supposed to have 1400 of BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battl ... ance_Radar

While I do not expect Hollywood type of action and capture of the terrorists, but even if India is behind the technology curve, some of these have developed in India as late as 2000.


Any Tech is 'dumb' and can be fooled/'hacked' (even the simplest techie has borrowed swipe cards) so how do you trust any sensor. Tech can only give indication and final confirmation is always through 'hands and eyes' in such case. and it is best that way.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9273
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Yagnasri » 05 Jan 2016 09:51

Cross posted from Political thread

SwamyG wrote:The sack Doval campaign must be funded by ISI or by people who believe in Santa Claus and Utopia.


Worst. They believe in Pappu. :mrgreen:

This attack is politically aimed at many things. One of those things is to test NM and "prove" him to be "spineless" in front of his supporters. They have failed when they did in the border attacks. This is the second attempts. Salman Khurshid and Ayar went to paki land and gave pressers. We do not know what else they did. We can be sure that they are in touch with paki deep state actors. U.S. S.D. after Hillary became bit less anti-India, but it is still anti-India. Another target seems to be AD whom they do not like anyway. Unditeevee already started.

End cross posting.

Please stop calling these fellows as pigs. It is an insult to pigs. By the way, Pigs are not haram to Indics. So why are we using it as an insult?

The security is to make that task difficult and nearly impossible. But any security can be breached if given proper tools.

Rajput
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 18 Dec 2004 06:42
Location: Milky Way

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Rajput » 05 Jan 2016 09:52

ManSingh wrote:My point being: There is only so much defence can do. Unless cost is imposed on actual perpetrators, no amount of shields/defences will guarantee absolute security.


Those who disagree can look up the "Maginot Line".

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4188
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Murugan » 05 Jan 2016 09:56

abhijitm wrote:
shiv wrote:Watched Arun Jaitley press conf 60 seconds ago.
...

With Jaitley - total disappointment. No passion. No anger.

Some people take pride in staying calm and not give away via body language. But I understand the pain. In such situation a country needs a leader, not only to console but to emotionally connect with the citizens and give them hope. It is not the coincidence that in the event of national calamity, security the same politicians who in elections shout through their arse suddenly either disappear or give lame text book comments. It was the case with MMS, it is now Modi. There is a pattern and I don't believe it is a coincidence. Alas MMS never speaks but if Modi does MMS then something is wrong. It is possible that in such scenario powerful and experienced bureaucracy overwhelmingly influence the politicians and dictate the narrative.


Arun Jaitley is a lawyer and a seasoned one. Compare his measured tone suitable to a lawyer with "Smoke 'em out" bravado of Bush.
Last edited by Murugan on 05 Jan 2016 09:58, edited 1 time in total.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 05 Jan 2016 09:56

Shiv, I get most of what you are saying. So connecting all your patient explanations, the picture is:
1. The base has pre-Independence history, hence naturally some location and technical aspects were that of pre-Independence times.
2. The buffer zone keeps the casual intruders away, but will not keep armed trouble makers - especially the terrorists.
3. Indian military bases do not employ the state of the art in surveillance and monitoring (though you did not explicitly state that, that is what I gather)
4. Yet, the sanctum santorum was not compromised; and our high value assets were not damaged.
5. Because of the terrain and vast area the combing operations take time.

I understand causalities are unavoidable, and we take a hit.

So after the ops are completed, and India finishes a covert action - it is definitely time to re-evaluate military bases surveillance and monitoring procedures and equipment.

Rajput
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 18 Dec 2004 06:42
Location: Milky Way

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Rajput » 05 Jan 2016 09:58

SwamyG wrote:Don't we use Perimeter Surveillance Radar? India is supposed to have 1400 of BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEL_Battl ... ance_Radar.

And if you had continued reading that Wikipedia page, you would have read:
A BFSR radar that offers foliage penetration is under development.

And guess what that area of the base has? Foliage. Lots of foliage.

<rant>
I came here to read news and analysis; not half-assed ideas about "we should do this" and "we should do that". If you know what needs to be done, then talk to the RM. There are a few contributors here who have really solid analysis and a lot to contribute; but it's a pain in the ass to weed through all the wailing and back-biting and arm-chair-generaling to get to those gems. So please keep discussions not relevant to this attack in some other thread.
</rant>

And BTW: speaking of tech. The US has a very simple border with Mexico: 100s of miles of desert and rock. And yet, despite spending billions of dollars, they have not been able to keep the Mexicans out. They have thrown every available tech at the problem, and it still remains. And this is in an area without natural obstacles like forests and rivers; and without much local population.
Last edited by Rajput on 05 Jan 2016 10:02, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 10:00

One reason why I get upset by our leaders not firmly naming Pakistan and beating about the bush with deadpan expressions is because our people look to them for answers and their ambiguity makes the reactions and thoughts of Indian cockeyed.

It is very simple:

Why are there terrorist attacks on India? Because Pakistan is sending in terrorists.

It is not as though terrorist attacks occur because of poor perimeter security or poor preparedness. We have a constant steam of terrorists attacking us and instead of looking at Pakistan, we Indians are forced to look inwards at ourselves and howl
Poor Intel
Wants Nobel prize
Poor security
Poor weapons
No cameras
No fence


These are all like band aid to the main disease. But again an again in the media and among the lay public we see: "Pakistan attacks. We blame some deficiency among Indians"

The biggest deficiency is not looking at Pakistan and pretending the disease is with police, BSF, cameras, NSG etc

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2016 10:04

SwamyG wrote:3. Indian military bases do not employ the state of the art in surveillance and monitoring (though you did not explicitly state that, that is what I gather)
4. Yet, the sanctum santorum was not compromised; and our high value assets were not damaged.

They do, for the inner perimeter zone. Not over every square cm of the thousands of acres of buffer territory. Even there access routes and obvious areas of entry will be monitored. But let us apply the dictum "When the going gets tough the tough get going". Those Paki terrorists are as good as any special forces. They sneak in though the most difficult terrain where either there is no surveillance, or surveillance is difficult because of weather, fog,deep ravines etc. That means they are mountaineers and tough hikers as well as trained fighters. If some spy has not already done surveillance, their own training allows them to spot just such areas and enter at times when spotting them is most difficult. As the fog begins to rise in winter people can creep in via dense undergrowth and ravines if the intruders are tough and trained, Fog typically starts over water bodies which run in ravines

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 929
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 10:12

shiv wrote:
Shaun wrote:with due respect sir , what have hiking and mountaineering have do with an operational air base !!!

That question is exactly what I mean. If you knew you would not ask. If you ask you do not know.

If you are a techie, you should know why BSF security cameras stop working. They should work like my laptop no. No failures

there can be N number of reasons for a camera going kaput but two simultaneously that too in a " peaceful " border talks volume of the lethargy that goes in up keeping them.

Some pigs intruded into the base , only time will tell how such intrusion could have been avoided if we had better surveillance equipment and sensors . We now know how good those sensors in remote hilly snow clad terrain of LOC have helped local commanders to detect intrusions . A sprawling and strategic AFB should have multiple layer of such surveillance equipment to detect intrusion.

and to nay Sayers , first let this gadgets get installed than speak about their deficiencies
Last edited by shaun on 05 Jan 2016 10:26, edited 2 times in total.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 05 Jan 2016 10:14

Rajput: So sorry that you have to grapple with everyday problems of an online discussion forum. I feel so 400% sad for your TFTA attitude.

SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15946
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 05 Jan 2016 10:20

Shiv what you say about fog makes sense. Punjab area of Pakistan has the fog season from November to January.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1573
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Manish_P » 05 Jan 2016 10:23

Are regular day-to-day operations (Daily training flights / sorties) going on at the Air base ?

Have they been reduced/stopped completely as a precautionary measure ?

VikramS
BRFite
Posts: 1755
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby VikramS » 05 Jan 2016 10:34

Rajput wrote:<rant>
I came here to read news and analysis; not half-assed ideas about "we should do this" and "we should do that". If you know what needs to be done, then talk to the RM. There are a few contributors here who have really solid analysis and a lot to contribute; but it's a pain in the ass to weed through all the wailing and back-biting and arm-chair-generaling to get to those gems. So please keep discussions not relevant to this attack in some other thread.
</rant>


<counter rant>

I am witness to 'people' working in internal security sharing proposals (especially about robots in combat situations involving terrorists) to their peer groups post 26/11. But little effective seems to have happened.

And I know undergrads in Indian colleges who have built robots which had a respectable showing in international robotic competitions.

The point being it is neither hard to make them in India nor very expensive to import them.

Many city police SWAT teams in the US carry such equipment; lets not even talk about special forces.

It is just a question of will, priority and a can do approach to problems..

Countless threads have been devoted on this forum to discuss billion dollar purchases when a few millions could create capability which could significantly reduce casualties in such situations.

I am personally sick of Army Officers being taken out by canon-fodder jehadis since they lead from the front when the same jehadi can be stunned, smoked or gunned by a contraption costing less than a European vacation for a family of four.

If you have a personal line to the RM please share it with us.

</counter rant>

And do you really feel that base perimeter (20-30 Kms) is comparable to 2000 mile long US-Mexico border?
Last edited by VikramS on 05 Jan 2016 10:41, edited 3 times in total.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 929
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 10:38

+1 ^^^

From all such incidences we should learn how to counter it in a defensive way as our country believes in more reactions than actions . Equipment , gadgets , sensors and properly equipping our sentries are safe bets for such defensive mindset .

People here say we are in a constant war , but where is the preparation for such a war where we are defending ourself from being shot or flushing our own jungles and houses from varmints ???
In 2013 , 17 of our brave souls were martyred because of a soft skinned transport carrier in a hot combat zone where there is every risk of fire coming from any allay ,only the VIPs get the bullet proof vehicles .It took one kargil and the life of 500 Jawans to electrify , illuminate and putting sensors all along the LOC , I don't know how many more life have to be sacrificed for better and secure defense bases.
Last edited by shaun on 05 Jan 2016 11:03, edited 1 time in total.

BharadwajV
BRFite
Posts: 116
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby BharadwajV » 05 Jan 2016 10:51

Did the Jehadis get the SP coincidentally or track him down?
I'm going with the former for H&D purposes...
(It's fairly difficult for a localite to even get the Circle Inspector when he is off duty..)

We should also employ more MPV's at such locations. We could have IED Disabling robots that can be ungarrisoned for probing booby trapped Virgin Seeker bodies.
We have had Policemen/Paramilitary Personnel facing similar situations as the Martyred Lt. Col, in the Anti Naxal Operations.
But great to see the Akbar doing rounds. I bet that the Jehadis did not train for that at Cherat.

kenop
BRFite
Posts: 1333
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 07:28

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby kenop » 05 Jan 2016 11:22

Suddenly, since morning we are hearing a lot of the SP on TV.
India Today TV guys are both eating out of his hands and providing leading questions. Much like the kind of interviews done with Congoons and Khujliwal.
I do not get this as they are also seemingly unsure of the veracity.

anjan
BRFite
Posts: 446
Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby anjan » 05 Jan 2016 11:22

It's extraordinarily stupid to allow ourselves to be laid siege to inside our own country and insist on fortified bases everywhere. We're reduced to discussing how to hunker down in our own borders. Those chaps could have lain in wait in a nullah 100 mts away and shot at offrs and men exiting the base. What next? All soldiers must only move in armd cars to buy subzi? In the hinterland?

Ultimately it has to be retribution that stops the source of the attacks and intelligence to prevent the few that the insane or the suicidal will still plan.

This advocacy for some super duper perimeter security everywhere is just flat out stupid from any perspective: manpower or financial. You can stop the casual low cost attacks. Pakistan throws proper well trained soldiers at us.

raghava
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 18:40

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby raghava » 05 Jan 2016 11:23

^^ +1

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1072
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby rkhanna » 05 Jan 2016 11:28

Irrespective of what you think of the Man, he makes Valid Points. Just finished reading the Book 'The Seige- Attack on the Taj'. One Glaring similarity is that once an Op is done. Politicans and Commanders are quick to Call them 'Successess'. Critical Evaluation is often ignored and overtime forgotten.

http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/ajai-shukla-between-mr-doval-and-the-deep-blue-sea-116010400562_1.html


Yet, it was a close run thing. Had the terrorists inflicted mass casualties in the family lines, or entered the technical area and blown up some fighter aircraft, India’s forbearance would have been seriously strained. By good luck India’s intelligence agencies were forewarned on Friday, the day before the attack, by telephone calls the terrorists foolishly made to Pakistan. This intelligence, which went straight up to the NSA, provided precious hours to beef up security at potential terrorist targets — a list headed by the Pathankot Air Base. The means for this were readily available from the nearby Pathankot cantonment, India’s biggest, which houses two infantry divisions and two armoured brigades (over 50,000 troops). Yet, when the NSA met the army chief on Friday, he asked for only two columns of soldiers (some 50 troops). Intent on directly controlling what he anticipated would be a walk in the park, and without anticipating that there might be more than one group of terrorists, Mr Doval led with his trump card — he ordered 150-160 National Security Guard (NSG) troopers to be flown down immediately from New Delhi. The army was placed on the side-lines.

In effect, knowing that armed terrorists were prowling the vicinity, the NSA left the Pathankot Air Base in the hands of Defence Security Corps (DSC) jawans; a handful of air force Garud commandos; and the NSG contingent. The DSC, composed of retired military veterans well past their prime, can hardly repulse a well-equipped and motivated terrorist suicide squad. The NSG is not a first responder, and is neither trained nor equipped to protect sprawling air bases; it is meant for pinpoint operations like hostage rescue or flushing out terrorists holed up in a house. As for the Garuds, even the air force has not been able to adequately clarify what they are meant for. The army, which flushes militants out of large forests every day in Jammu & Kashmir, was given a peripheral role. Only when things started going wrong was the army asked for more troops. Although six army columns (150 soldiers) were eventually deployed, it was never in command of the operations.

It is revealing that not a single Pathankot casualty is from the army. The hapless DSC jawans took most of the casualties. The NSG took unacceptable losses, including an officer killed from a booby-trapped terrorist body. The army knows this ploy well and approaches terrorist bodies in J&K with caution, knowing the jihadi’s dying act could have been to activate a grenade and lie on it.

But in New Delhi, the flawed initial allocation of resources set the stage for further bumbling. Eager to crown Mr Doval with credit, even before the operation was done, his cultivated troupe of journalist cheerleaders began tweeting his brilliance. A sample tweet: “Ajit Doval take a bow. Superb counter action, moved NSG on Fri(day) brilliant synergy…”. Another: “Hats off to those in nat(ional) security/int(elligence) op(eration)s/ military/Punjab pol(ice) who haven’t winked in past 24 hours to exterminate the vermin 4rm (from) across.”


Stepping in to explain the continuing casualties that day, Home Secretary Rajiv Mehrishi – clearly a votary of the police tradition of throwing troopers into action without training or equipment – declared the Pathankot attack was not a security lapse, because “when weapons are in use, [a] few security personnel are bound to be injured.”

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1072
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby rkhanna » 05 Jan 2016 11:32

Pathankot Attack: Terrorists May Have Entered Air Base Before Alert Was Sounded, Say Security Agencies


http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/01/04/pathankot-attack_n_8909748.html?1451903460&utm_hp_ref=india&utm_hp_ref=india

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21980
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2016 11:37

US Expects Pakistan Will Take Action Against Pathankot Attackers
All India | Press Trust of India | Updated: January 05, 2016 06:40 IST
WASHINGTON: The US expects Pakistan will take actions against the perpetrators of the terror attack on Indian Air Force base in Pathankot, a top American official said, hours after Islamabad said it is working on the "leads" provided by India.

"The government of Pakistan has spoken very powerfully to this and it's certainly our expectation that they'll treat this exactly the way they've said they would," State Department Spokesman John Kirby said on Monday.

Pakistan has said it is working on the "leads" provided by India on this attack.

Describing terrorism as a "shared challenge" in South Asia, the US also asked all countries in the region to work together to disrupt and dismantle terrorist networks and bring justice to the perpetrators of the Pathankot terrorist attack.


"We urge all the countries in the region to work together to disrupt and dismantle terrorist networks and to bring justice to the perpetrators of this particular attack. I would note that the government of Pakistan, also publicly and privately condemned this recent attack on the Indian air base."

"We have been clear with the highest levels of the government of Pakistan that it must continue to target all militant groups," Mr Kirby said.

The government of Pakistan has said publicly and privately that it's not going to discriminate among terrorist groups as part of its counter-terrorism operation, he said.

"So this is a shared challenge that we all face in the region and we in the United States want everybody to treat it as a shared challenge," Mr Kirby said, adding that the US has strongly condemned the terrorist attack on the Indian Air Force base in Punjab's Pathankot.

"We extend our condolences to all the victims and their families," he said.

He said the US has for a long time talked about the continued safe haven issues there in between Afghanistan and Pakistan and certainly between India and Pakistan.

"We're mindful that there remain some safe havens that we obviously want to see cleared out. And we continue to engage with the government of Pakistan to that end. And again, I would point you back to what the government of Pakistan itself has said and acknowledged that it's not going to discriminate among terrorist groups and it will continue to take the fight," Mr Kirby said.

The Pakistani government, the Pakistani people very much understand the threat in Washington, Mr Kirby said.

"What we want and what we continue to say we want and will continue to work for is increased cooperation, communication, coordination, increased information-sharing and increased efforts against what we all believe is a shared challenge in the region."

"We want to see the government of Pakistan continue to press the fight against terrorists, all terrorists, and to meet their own expectations that they're not going to discriminate among groups. They've said themselves and our expectation is that they'll live up to that pledge," he said.

"We recognise there's more everybody can do, not just Pakistan but every nation can do because it is a shared challenge and it's a challenge, as you well know, that doesn't necessarily observe borders and boundaries. So it's something that everybody can attack more," Mr Kirby said.


Mr Kirby said the US is encouraged by the government of Pakistan condemning this attack, and the statement that they've made about not discriminating among groups.

"As we've said before, this is an issue that, as are so many issues between India and Pakistan and we want to see them work out bilaterally," Mr Kirby said, adding that normalisation of relations between India and Pakistan remains vital to the security and economic prosperity of the entire region.


"We strongly encourage the governments of both India and Pakistan to remain steadfast in their commitment to a more secure and prosperous future for both our countries and for their region," Mr Kirby added.

Pakistan on Monday said it is working on the "leads" provided by India on the terror attack on the IAF base in Pathankot, according to the Foreign Office.

Extending Pakistan's deepest condolences to the Government and people of India on the "unfortunate terrorist incident" in Pathankot, a statement by the spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said, "In line with Pakistan's commitment to effectively counter and eradicate terrorism, the Government is in touch with the Indian government and is working on the leads provided by it."

The statement, however, did not give details of the "leads" provided by India.

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 929
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 05 Jan 2016 11:39

anjan wrote:It's extraordinarily stupid to allow ourselves to be laid siege to inside our own country and insist on fortified bases everywhere. We're reduced to discussing how to hunker down in our own borders. Those chaps could have lain in wait in a nullah 100 mts away and shot at offrs and men exiting the base. What next? All soldiers must only move in armd cars to buy subzi? In the hinterland?

Ultimately it has to be retribution that stops the source of the attacks and intelligence to prevent the few that the insane or the suicidal will still plan.

This advocacy for some super duper perimeter security everywhere is just flat out stupid from any perspective: manpower or financial. You can stop the casual low cost attacks. Pakistan throws proper well trained soldiers at us.


We have watched such attacks and terror for nearly three decades and what is the outcome ??? any terror n/w across border destroyed ???
With such a reactive mindset the best bet is only to keep on fortifying ourself . It have stopped significant intrusion across the LOC and so is the attention at Punjab IB . If we can't crush the root cause of this terrorism , a significant amount of money and men will always be required to fortify the installations.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1573
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Manish_P » 05 Jan 2016 11:42

This advocacy for some super duper perimeter security everywhere is just flat out stupid from any perspective: manpower or financial.


IMVHO it is quite cost effective for the turds

4-8-12 whatever low-level (but trained) scum on a one way ticket severely hampering a major Air force base for days !

When the next war goes hot it might well be started with using these type of asymmetric attacks on multiple bases (maybe with the use of sleeper cells who have been infiltrated a long time ago) to reduce operational availability of our assets

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3342
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Aditya G » 05 Jan 2016 11:47

India has begun the retaliation. Dossier shipped and committee appointed 8) :

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-surface/

....

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has appointed a three-member committee to investigate how six Jaish terrorists succeeded in penetrating the facility in spite of intelligence warnings that an attack was imminent.

...


Sarcasm aside, this is a good development as no committee was appointed by the Union Govt post mumbai attacks. The only committee was one established by Maha Police. NIA has also registered three different FIRs, which is also a positive development - Punjab Police should not be entrusted with this investigation.

Couple of titbits regarding timelines:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... jTGvN.dpuf

This piece confirms that first contact was made by DSC - this was an active contact - they were not killed unsuspected. The air force assets were already in the air scouting for jehadis.

The second phase started when Garud Party went to engage the attackers.

Third phase is effectively the next day when search continued for more attackers.

...

Imaging equipment on an IAF reconnaissance helicopter, a source familiar with the operation said, first detected possible terrorist movement at around 4 am on Saturday to the north-west of the runway. The area adjoins Air Force housing, where over 100 families live and where there is a school run for the children of personnel.

Patrols from the Defence Security Corps (DSC), a base-protection organisation drawn from retired army personnel, were sent out to investigate the report, leading to fire contact in which three members of the force lost their lives.

Two more unarmed troops of the DSC, were shot dead next to the lavatory in the security force’s mess, just a few hundred metres from an area where combat aircraft were parked, sources familiar with the operation said.

An IAF commando lost his life in this second phase of fighting.
Following the early exchange of fire, troops present at the base focussed on sealing off routes towards the north-west and south-east, in an effort to ensure the terrorists would not be able to move towards the Air Force housing, or pens where the base’s MiG21 jets, attack helicopters, and surface-to-air missile batteries are housed.
...
Last edited by ramana on 05 Jan 2016 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold to show the sequence. ramana

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9813
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sum » 05 Jan 2016 11:57

Patrols from the Defence Security Corps (DSC), a base-protection organisation drawn from retired army personnel, were sent out to investigate the report, leading to fire contact in which three members of the force lost their lives.

Two more unarmed troops of the DSC, were shot dead next to the lavatory in the security force’s mess, just a few hundred metres from an area where combat aircraft were parked, sources familiar with the operation said.

So which is correct: this version or the earlier one about DSC cooks being ambushed while in their quarters during shift change?

Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 586
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Raja Ram » 05 Jan 2016 11:57

Blast reported near Indian Consulate in Jalalabad! So Paki Army is clear that they don't want any peace, but want to end up in pieces. Hope that message is understood and we grant them their wish!

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Gyan » 05 Jan 2016 11:58

I know a bit of Arun Jaitely in action as an advocate. His dead pan expression is a put on. He was one of loudest and rowdiest of advocates in "India". Prone to shouting even in Supreme Court. The only thing this dead pan face tells us, is that they have taken a decision. Decision can be to have more chai-biscuit or beat the shit out of Pakis. What ever it is, it will not be evident from the expression of Jaitely. We may not like him, but he is hardcore "Indic" who believes that its time for India to be recognized on International stage.

Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 586
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Raja Ram » 05 Jan 2016 12:01

The US and China through their statements have revealed yet again that don't care for Indian lives. That should clear up some cobwebs into the thinking of Indian leadership so that they get the clarity needed on the way forward.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, Dennis, Gyan, Neela and 47 guests