Pathankot AirForce base under attack

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 05 Jan 2016 21:01

How NSG Commandos neutralized terrorists at Pathankot

Seems like an intentional leak of info to stem the criticism against use of NSG when IA was near by. The message seems to be conveyed is that NSG is equipped with the right gear and fancy gadgets that may not be available with regular infantry units and they are best placed to flush out any terrorists once they got inside the base without much collateral damage.

It is also a worry if the "daredevil" leader of bomb squad did not wear full protective gear while examining the body of the slain terrorist. 21 causalities to NSG commandos is high. It indicates heavy grenade use by the pigs.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 05 Jan 2016 21:05

I don't know if the various security organizations carry out gaming and training for set-piece terrorist attacks like this one but it seems like they should.

Ideally, there would be a fully detailed plan worked out for tackling each ypr of attack, with assets available and it would be quickly activated once there is word of an attack. Not every situation can be gamed, but we can surely do better than we are doing now.

Improvised heroism at individual level, whether it is Doval or col. Niranjan, can only take us so far and is costly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jan 2016 21:08

All credits to A Sharma for the find and Getty images..

Burly IA soldier with Bren jury rigged on his truck. Note all are wearing BPJs

Casspir? for transporting troops into combat

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jan 2016 21:08

anjan wrote:It's extraordinarily stupid to allow ourselves to be laid siege to inside our own country and insist on fortified bases everywhere. We're reduced to discussing how to hunker down in our own borders. Those chaps could have lain in wait in a nullah 100 mts away and shot at offrs and men exiting the base. What next? All soldiers must only move in armd cars to buy subzi? In the hinterland?

Precisely. And well put. The problem is Pakistan. Not perimeter security

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Jan 2016 21:09

Singha wrote:indeed. there are dozens of targets within a 20km range in that region.....one cannot guess where the loose pack of rodents will strike.

20kms? There is a Military Hospital next door, adjacent to the base!!! And KV No.1 (Air Force) is along the main access road to the main entrance gate and shares boundary with the base...imagine a day time attack on the school as the kids assemble for morning prayer?

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 05 Jan 2016 21:10

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Jan 2016 21:10

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... in-mumbai/

...

Pattern of the Pathankot attack is almost similar as that of 26/11, said Brigadier (Rtd) Govind Singh Sisodia, the former DIG who led the NSG operation during the Mumbai attacks. Six terrorists who attacked the Pathankot Air Force base were killed while security forces lost seven of its men.

“The terrorists came in two groups – one went into action to attack the targets or inflict casualties while other took to hiding. Almost similar tactics were adopted by two terrorist groups that was involved in the Akhnoor attack. One kept silent as first went into the action. Later the second group came out and attacked an officer. I wonder how the security agencies and army failed to visualise the pattern of two earlier of a similar kind – Mumbai and Akhnoor attacks. They also did not take pro-active protection measures at Pathankot airforce base station,” he said.

...

Brigadier Sisodia recalled that the agencies involved in the operation had another advantage unlike Mumbai attack. “They had used the cell phone only once before the attack at the Air Force base station. During Mumbai attack they were being guided by their handlers in Pakistan thus it took a lot of time to pin them down or neutralise the terrorists.”

...

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 05 Jan 2016 21:13

Karan M wrote:Looks like they are AF. Its like the AF security military dress blues under cammo.

The pistol holster is all white , clear indication they are from AF . Going through the pics , mind boggling variety of camos !!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 05 Jan 2016 21:14

I think people have a misconception of what happened. The DSC family quarters were attacked and the cookhouse got hit where the 5 KIA happened. It's not like they were loitering in the battle zone. Then 2 terrorists probably from that group holed up in the DSC family quarters and were eliminated by the NSG.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Jan 2016 21:21

schinnas wrote:How NSG Commandos neutralized terrorists at Pathankot

Seems like an intentional leak of info to stem the criticism against use of NSG when IA was near by. The message seems to be conveyed is that NSG is equipped with the right gear and fancy gadgets that may not be available with regular infantry units and they are best placed to flush out any terrorists once they got inside the base without much collateral damage.

It is also a worry if the "daredevil" leader of bomb squad did not wear full protective gear while examining the body of the slain terrorist. 21 causalities to NSG commandos is high. It indicates heavy grenade use by the pigs.

There was a time when name of Black-Cats/NSG was enough to calm the nerves of nation. Where is the trust factor now?

If IA Ghataks had been called in and suffered 4-5 casualties from SF columns, our topic of discussion would have been completely reversed, i.e. why we didn't call NSG which is a much specialized force for the situation?

In this hour of judgement we have one of the finest leaders, leading our finest in battlefront. And for some folks in nation its hard to digest, hence all this rona dhona and judgmental talk in media/forums.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jan 2016 21:23

Philip wrote:An air base where attack helos are stationed is under attack from terrorists who've penetrated the base.They are hiding in dense undergrowth we're told.Their locations on the ground are reasonably well known because of the firing from their hideouts.What prevents the helos from saturating the area with gunfire? We saw them in the air,what were they doing? Simple "pig spotting"?

Philip this never worked in Vietnam despite having C-130s shooting up the jungle. The people on the gground can hear the aircraft and simply put some obstacle between themselves and the aircraft

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jan 2016 21:29

Sid

Far too many armchair generals who have watched too much hollywood and bollywood flicks and think war is some antiseptic game where the "good guys" win in seconds commenting away on all media.

Add the deliberate jackA$$ery by Kangressis and AAP to use this incident for political mileage, as versus national interests and more people are getting confused and wailing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Jan 2016 21:30

Daksh is no tank and to me it looks like an urban COIN robot - not an all terrain robot. What are its obstacle crossing specs?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 05 Jan 2016 21:32

Glad to see NSG is well equipped again. Should shut up the scooter helmet enthusiasts. Hopefully the post Bluestar - 26/11 neglect is a thing of the past permanently.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Jan 2016 21:39

shiv wrote:
anjan wrote:It's extraordinarily stupid to allow ourselves to be laid siege to inside our own country and insist on fortified bases everywhere. We're reduced to discussing how to hunker down in our own borders. Those chaps could have lain in wait in a nullah 100 mts away and shot at offrs and men exiting the base. What next? All soldiers must only move in armd cars to buy subzi? In the hinterland?
Precisely. And well put. The problem is Pakistan. Not perimeter security

+1000000

It sickens me that we can't see this. We are fighting a war on our own soil and doing precisely nothing to take the logical course of action - impose costs and reduce if not eliminate the source of the problem.

Frog ...and boiling.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jan 2016 21:39

Thanks A Sharma ji and Karan M.

Karan, in all those photos posted by you on previous page everyone is IAF except where you have titled regular IA. Even there, I see a senior Wg Cdr (a course mate that too) standing in between.

The base is on Op Alert. All personnel (even in IAF) have some weapons training and the photos are of those deployed at specific places as per the SOP with their weapons. In the penultimate photo there is one DSC person.

One can see that all IAF personnel have brand new BPJs probably being used for the first time. Also, different uniform patterns because different types of winter clothing is issued and some are wearing Camo Jackets and some IAF winter jerseys. In the lowest pic there are a few with older issued BPJs and one person at least has a private jacket on him.

Camo patterns on BPJs and dresses are different in those worn by IAF personnel.

Of course, IA folks are looking far more at ease with their weapons and equipment.

What pleases me is that most IAF personnel would be admin / technical staff and quite a few are well over 40 / 45. They are standing with their Chin Up.

kulhari · Post by **kulhari** » 05 Jan 2016 21:45

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Faisalabad_bombing
One example of retribution that I could think of.... Retribution is definitive but the choice is time and place.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Jan 2016 21:45

Raja Bose wrote:I think people have a misconception of what happened. The DSC family quarters were attacked and the cookhouse got hit where the 5 KIA happened. It's not like they were loitering in the battle zone. Then 2 terrorists probably from that group holed up in the DSC family quarters and were eliminated by the NSG.

DSC usually don't have family quarters inside the base. some of them (very few) hire houses off base like a lot of the military personnel do due to the extremely limited amount of such quarters available on base.

most (vast majority) of the DSC folks live in barracks on the base.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 05 Jan 2016 21:47

One thing I observe is that escalation of specs.

You do not the obstacle climbing capability of the Mars rover to pick up a dead jehadi. More general, in the sieges IA has with the jehadis in J&K, quite often it is in a populated area with the jehadis hole up in some home. Very motorable.

Similarly for perimeter security you do not need full area coverage (of all the acreage), but a ring.

No system is fool-proof, even the death-star.

What you do is increase is the chance of the bad guy being spotted, and the good guy not being taken by surprise. Its in probabilities.

Field of vision is a question of optics. Put a wide-angle lens, and you can get a bigger field of vision for the same camera.

Also most of India is not a tropical rain forest with dense undergrowth that a Jehadi can completely mask themselves. A Jehadi in a forest can hide behind a tree or bush but will be visible when he moves. You dont need export restricted foliage penetrating radars for that.

Again, my point was that the technology is not super-duper, star wars type. It is very achievable at 1% of the cost of the strategic assets which these bases have.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Jan 2016 21:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
shiv wrote:...
Precisely. And well put. The problem is Pakistan. Not perimeter security
+1000000

It sickens me that we can't see this. We are fighting a war on our own soil and doing precisely nothing to take the logical course of action - impose costs and reduce if not eliminate the source of the problem.

Frog ...and boiling.

Kapoor Sir, I wrote a long post .... damn! whats the point. Khoon nahin khaulta hamara kya? Kab gussa aayega, apnon ke katalion pe? Yun hi keyboard pe ungliyan nachaa te rahenge hum?

I am sure we will attack / punish Pakistan when our economy is X trillion dollars (where X is conveniently undefined). Till then we will fight them in India. On our soil - home soil advantage and all that.

26th Jan is coming. Security clamp down on Republic day. It is a routine since 19XX? Celebrations amidst fear of being attacked - We've got used to it. Latest and greatest military hardware will be paraded with columns and columns of soldiers marching to the tune of Sare Jahan Se Acchaa Hindostann Humara etc. No one even seems to notice the irony.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 05 Jan 2016 21:57

Shiv-ji, Anjan-ji and others:
Your thinking is justified for a hard state. For a soft state such as India (an assessment of B.Raman that I agree with) with a mix of external and home grown (naxals, religious and sectarian fanatics with covert support from West and North) terrorists, perimeter security of vital installations is very critical. I am for one grateful that the overall level of perimeter security in India has been substantially increased from the time of Parliamentary attack and 26/11.

However, we do not want to be a soft state for ever and do want to take the fight to the enemy and indulge in offensive defense, championed by our NSA. Otherwise, we run the risk of getting into a siege mentality. Ideal course would need to balance both realities which the current GoI seems to be attempting to do. If we are all offense and not defensive, we will become easy targets for home grown militancy. Our enemies will change strategy to inculcate home grown fanatics with high degree of deniability.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 05 Jan 2016 22:08

I know this op has been handled extremely well compared to the past ones.

I know NSG is far more equipped than even recent past.

But somehow I just can not get it out of my mind the death of a lt col Niranjan - 32 years old and having a 2 yr old kid.

After years in BRF, I know the higher casualty during initial contact and hence the other KIAs. Given the terrain, surprise, economical asset deployment in India and the humane rules of engagement that we follow, some of those casualties seem inevitable.

But death of such a senior officer during a mop up operation when things have mostly died down is hard to swallow.

That is when the absence of daksh comes up for question. No doubt that NSG has it and no doubt that it is capable and done a good job in NE. None doubting those facts. The question is, why it was missing in action so that the Lt Col has to take up the responsibility of moving the body of the slain pig.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 05 Jan 2016 22:14

Why are Brfites still in rudali mode? Look at the mehran base attack where they lost 18 personnel and 2 P-3c's and compare the stellar performance of our forces. 2 militants also managed to escape alive from Mehran base. Also the ITBP has foiled tellibunny attack in afghanistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Mehran_attack

I am forced to repeat, don't get mad get even.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jan 2016 22:20

Shiv - since after your question a dozen more posts appeared

It can even climb stairs - more or less "most terrain" since all terrain is a misnomer. Of course width of gap/trench will be proportional to its size and wheel size which is where the larger size of the Daksh helps also because it can mount more eqpt.

Overall features etc.

http://www.slideshare.net/hindujudaic/d ... -rov-india

Page 6
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/IIT ... e_2010.pdf

The Gun Mounted Version in particular

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2930.JPG

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Jan 2016 22:27

Picklu wrote:That is when the absence of daksh comes up for question. No doubt that NSG has it and no doubt that it is capable and done a good job in NE. None doubting those facts. The question is, why it was missing in action so that the Lt Col has to take up the responsibility of moving the body of the slain pig.

Why oh why, don't you guys read the links which are posted a hajaar times in the same thread..

Daksh is in trials with paramil forces as of September 2015. So its not in service yet!

http://sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails.aspx ... bot%20help

Our issue is each force goes around procuring items on its own and coordination is missing. Separate tenders for MHA, IA, IAF, IN etc. Add importitis, wheeler dealers and red tapism and trials to finetune stuff.. and things get toxic.

Anyhow, Daksh is available and most likely, should get inducted.

Posting for the gajillionth time saar so please to read onlee wrote:Indian Army has inducted Daksh to detect any kind of Improvised Explosive Devices (IED).
A delegation of MHA including representatives of National Security Guard (NSG), Border Security Force (BSF), Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), and representatives from North East state police had a meeting with DRDO scientists at Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE). The meeting was held at Pashan recently where they discussed various aspects of the equipment and its technology.

Confirming this development, the head of robotics of Research and Development Establishment (Engineers) told Sakal Times that the meeting was positive and MHA has shown interest in Daksh.

“We are going to conduct test trials in order to evaluate and understand its capability and functioning. If the trials goes well, then the further decision whether to procure it or not will be taken by the Ministry,” he added.

The Daksh is capable of climbing stairs as well as negotiating cross country terrain and has on board a shotgun for blasting through door locks and breaking windshields to handle any kind of car bombs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2016 22:39

Picklu et al, Armed forces fight with what they have. No robots available. So keep saying Daksh/Vaksh wont help.
NSG officer was commanding the bomb disposal squad. He was brave to try to defuse the bomb himself. He might have done that many times. Just this time it didn't work.

Please respect his bravery and not keep questioning his action.

So folks please stop this bokwas analysis of a good operation.
India is the only country that has the folk tale of "Two men and Donkey".
No matter what you do people will criticize.

Shiv, Don't bother explaining.
Not worth it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jan 2016 22:42

ibnlive

According to sources, a former Indian Air Force officer is being held responsible for the Pathankot airbase attack.

Sources claim that Airman Sunil Kumar who was based in Pathankot was arrested for passing information about the air base to a Pakistani woman in 2014. His e-mails to the Pakistani woman - Meena Raina - led to his arrest.

In the last two months, 14 people linked to the armed forces have been arrested for spying.

Sunil was being paid for the information he passed on to the Pakistani woman. However, the investigators did not file a chargesheet against him within the stipulated time.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 05 Jan 2016 22:44

Bheeshma wrote:Why are Brfites still in rudali mode? Look at the mehran base attack where they lost 18 personnel and 2 P-3c's and compare the stellar performance of our forces. 2 militants also managed to escape alive from Mehran base. Also the ITBP has foiled tellibunny attack in afghanistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Mehran_attack

I am forced to repeat, don't get mad get even.

Yes, Kudos to NSA,NSG, GARUD, IA,IAF and RM Parikkar, . Very well handled than UPA.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2016 22:53

Few X-posts....

Raja Ram wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 446226.cms

The above report indicates that some of the questions posed in the earlier post seem to be true such as the weapons being kept ready previously for the terror groups to pick up. Which means a well functioning Drug route with local participation was used by whoever planned this. The locals may or may not have been in the loop that they are being used.

The local SP being out there in the night is intriguing. While there can be questions raised on what was he upto in the dead of the night in an official car without PSO but with a friend; it is also true that he had raised the warning. Was he in the radar of intelligence as a potentially compromised person involved in the drug trafficking or was he a person who was taking them on?

The report also talks about weaponary and tactics used pointing out to professional training beyond the normal fidayeen profile. My hunch that this was an operation run by professionals from Paki Army under false flag is getting stronger. I hope the investigation establishes a direct state involvement of Pakistan.

The strategic value of that will be quite significant.

Peregrine wrote:Pathankot attack: Guns fall silent at IAF base, search operation still on
PATHANKOT: Guns fell silent on Tuesday morning at the IAF base here even as the operation against terrorists entered its fourth day with security personnel engaged in search and combing operations to sanitise the installation.

Defence sources said that the firing at the Air Force base in Punjab ceased on Tuesday morning after the attack that began in the wee hours on Saturday.

However, search and combing operations are on to ensure that the defence installation is properly secured and sanitised, they added.

Security forces had on Monday killed two more Pakistani terrorists inside the Pathankot airbase with the government saying that six attackers had thus been neutralised. However, it was not clear whether all the intruders who attacked the base have been eliminated.

Following a meeting of the National Security Council chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, finance minister Arun Jaitley had said that the bodies of four terrorists have been recovered and those of the remaining two would be found.

The number of intruders had been put at six by officials and the figures given by Jaitley implied that all of them have been eliminated. However, none in the government was prepared to say on Monday that no more terrorists were inside the base or that the operation was over.

Combing and search operations will continue till "we are able to fully render the base safe", NSG IG Maj Gen Dushant Singh had said

Jaitley, who had attended the NSC meeting along with senior Cabinet colleagues Sushma Swaraj and Manohar Parrikar, had said that all assets at the base were safe

Security forces were able to confine the terrorists to the point at which they had intruded and held them at a "reasonable distance" from where the assets were located, the senior minister had added.

Meanwhile, in the wake of the Pathankot attack as well as the strike on the Indian consulate in Mazar-e-Sharif in Afghanistan, both probably originating in Pakistan, indications were that next week's scheduled visit by foreign secretary Jaishankar to Islamabad for talks will be put off.

It is likely that the national security advisors of the two countries may have an urgent meeting in the next few days after which a call would be taken on the foreign secretary-level talks.
Cheers

Avinash R wrote:Fresh explosion heard from inside Pathankot air base. Combing operation under way: ANI03:16 PM (IST)

Last could be clearing IEDs.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 05 Jan 2016 22:57

Karan M wrote:
Picklu wrote:That is when the absence of daksh comes up for question. No doubt that NSG has it and no doubt that it is capable and done a good job in NE. None doubting those facts. The question is, why it was missing in action so that the Lt Col has to take up the responsibility of moving the body of the slain pig.
Why oh why, don't you guys read the links which are posted a hajaar times in the same thread..

Daksh is in trials with paramil forces as of September 2015. So its not in service yet!

http://sakaaltimes.com/NewsDetails.aspx ... bot%20help

Our issue is each force goes around procuring items on its own and coordination is missing. Separate tenders for MHA, IA, IAF, IN etc. Add importitis, wheeler dealers and red tapism and trials to finetune stuff.. and things get toxic.

Anyhow, Daksh is available and most likely, should get inducted.

Posting for the gajillionth time saar so please to read onlee wrote:Indian Army has inducted Daksh to detect any kind of Improvised Explosive Devices (IED).
A delegation of MHA including representatives of National Security Guard (NSG), Border Security Force (BSF), Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), and representatives from North East state police had a meeting with DRDO scientists at Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE). The meeting was held at Pashan recently where they discussed various aspects of the equipment and its technology.

Confirming this development, the head of robotics of Research and Development Establishment (Engineers) told Sakal Times that the meeting was positive and MHA has shown interest in Daksh.

“We are going to conduct test trials in order to evaluate and understand its capability and functioning. If the trials goes well, then the further decision whether to procure it or not will be taken by the Ministry,” he added.

The Daksh is capable of climbing stairs as well as negotiating cross country terrain and has on board a shotgun for blasting through door locks and breaking windshields to handle any kind of car bombs.

sorry ... tubelight moment - read those links but finally the full import of the 'paramil' part entered the old brain. Was confused why it was not being used since already inducted in Army.

The tragedy (of errors)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2016 22:59

X-Post...

So much rhona/dhona even after a successful operation.
And lots of demands about unobtanium gadgets.

Point is with available means was everything used to combat terrorists?

Picklu please answer this.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 05 Jan 2016 23:00

Bheeshma wrote:Why are Brfites still in rudali mode? Look at the mehran base attack where they lost 18 personnel and 2 P-3c's and compare the stellar performance of our forces. 2 militants also managed to escape alive from Mehran base. Also the ITBP has foiled tellibunny attack in afghanistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Mehran_attack

I am forced to repeat, don't get mad get even.

I would even say why as a nation we compare us with anything or anyone. We should be proud of whatever our forces did and just look to improve for next time (sadly there will be a next time, until this pigs are not kicked firmly).

At this point I feel so much anguish that I would even support a pindi'esque attack on these pigs and their ilks. These people will only understand when we not only get to them but get their families and relatives in the most gruesome manner. But again all we can do is type here, try to forget it after a few days and again go back to our LCA, Artillery threads, with just the the words "what if".

Sorry for rambling, but don't know what else I/we could do more.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Jan 2016 23:08

shiv wrote:
anjan wrote:It's extraordinarily stupid to allow ourselves to be laid siege to inside our own country and insist on fortified bases everywhere. We're reduced to discussing how to hunker down in our own borders. Those chaps could have lain in wait in a nullah 100 mts away and shot at offrs and men exiting the base. What next? All soldiers must only move in armd cars to buy subzi? In the hinterland?
Precisely. And well put. The problem is Pakistan. Not perimeter security

That is an extreme view point, no? Granted there is lack of political will to take Pakistan head on. But taking an extreme point does not serve to introduce newer measures. How about the other extreme, why not have No security of any kind in the military bases? Reality is, that even Doval talks about, that we are in the midst of "newer" warfare; and the country should be better prepared (it it is already not). "Newer" from the pre-independence days.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 05 Jan 2016 23:12

ramana wrote:X-Post...

So much rhona/dhona even after a successful operation.
And lots of demands about unobtanium gadgets.

Point is with available means was everything used to combat terrorists?

Picklu please answer this.

Come on sirji. Much of it is because despite intelligence and crack troops, we have a >0 casualty list. And this comes at the back of everyone with 2 brain cells predicting a strike after namo's talks overtures.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Jan 2016 23:16

No. Look at the bright side and share the optimism.
Retired unarmed DSC soldier chased the terrorist and shot him wit the terrorist's gun. He accounted for 1/6 or 16% of terrorists.
Lt. Col Niranjan personally tried to defuse the bomb and died in process.

BTW, 5 soldiers were also injured in that defusing that went awry.

He didn't send some one else to do that.

He was 34 year sold. A Lt Col at that age from Engineers!!!!

A very promising career cut short.

Big picture all the terrorist were killed with out the base being in shambles based on the ordnance they carried.

So Uthishta Bharata!!!

SwamyG, what do you want? I wanted to ask last night but thought you would sleep over and make it know yourself.
Why go after shiv?

Prasad, Did you see the circumstances those casualties occurred?

Yes root cause analysis should be done and what effective corrective action needs to be taken should be taken. But constant r/d is not useful.

First time MoD has a inquiry commission.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Jan 2016 23:21

BRF and India as a whole tend to go through 5 stages of grief whenever we have such monumental incidents.

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

Some folks jump to stage 2 to 5, while others get stuck in stage 4. Its high time we accept the reality and find a solution. Enough grief.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 05 Jan 2016 23:23

Sorry if posted/discussed before..
Happy to see the typical statement(s) and reaction from US. There is no usual == . Kudos to India's present diplomacy to bring focus on terrorism.
>>> (quotes from media)
The US expects Pakistan will take actions against the perpetrators of the terror attack on Indian Air Force base in Pathankot.... hours after Islamabad said it is working on the "leads" provided by India. "The government of Pakistan has spoken very powerfully to this and it's certainly our expectation that they'll treat this exactly the way they've said they would," State Department Spokesman John Kirby has said. "We urge all the countries in the region to work together to disrupt and dismantle terrorist networks and to bring justice to the perpetrators of this particular attack. I would note that the government of Pakistan, also publicly and privately condemned this recent attack on the Indian air base. [without whining about H&D, making noises about nuke_nu*e_Pak is not Burma ityadi ityadi]

Of course, trust BUT verify as much as we can.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 05 Jan 2016 23:28

ramana wrote: SwamyG, what do you want? I wanted to ask last night but thought you would sleep over and make it know yourself.
Why go after shiv?

What do YOU want? Why are you making it shiv vs me, huh?

I protest. I have asked questions, and he has patiently explained, and I have admitted my mistake in some cases to him. He has gracefully dealt with my mistake. We are just carrying on conversations. I even summarized his explanations into bullet points, and he further highlighted them and gave more explanation. I explicitly called out that he has valid points.

Please do not make it a BRFite vs BRFite, especially a senior as shiv - when I have no intention. Yes we question whoever it is, but the likes of Shiv or SSridhar are not belittled at least by me. I am asking him, because he explains nicely.

As far what I want, as the cliche goes a chain is as strong as the weakest link. My only hope is all aspects are analyzed and improved over the years.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 Jan 2016 23:42

schinnas wrote:Shiv-ji, Anjan-ji and others:
Your thinking is justified for a hard state. For a soft state such as India (an assessment of B.Raman that I agree with) with a mix of external and home grown (naxals, religious and sectarian fanatics with covert support from West and North) terrorists, perimeter security of vital installations is very critical. I am for one grateful that the overall level of perimeter security in India has been substantially increased from the time of Parliamentary attack and 26/11.

However, we do not want to be a soft state for ever and do want to take the fight to the enemy and indulge in offensive defense, championed by our NSA. Otherwise, we run the risk of getting into a siege mentality. Ideal course would need to balance both realities which the current GoI seems to be attempting to do. If we are all offense and not defensive, we will become easy targets for home grown militancy. Our enemies will change strategy to inculcate home grown fanatics with high degree of deniability.

This hard state soft state is BS. A state is a state and its primary job is to provide security to its people/civilization. I don't give a damn if its hard, soft, poached or fried. States that can diagnose and respond effectively to challenges survive, those who can't perish. We have a very clear threat from Pakistan inspired fundamentally from religion (Read Shiv's posts to get some perspective). They will not change. They are waging war on us on our own soil with 0 response from us. They are forcing us into a ghetto mind frame forcing us to devote more and more resources into protecting first x, then y, then z. Forget the impossibility and economic costs of doing that, there is a more fundamental point.

You know what ? X, Y, Z are on Indian soil, and I as as a free born Indian have a bloody right to go there unencumbered and without fear.

Our comprehensive national power is 10 times theirs and they are neutering all of that by these tactics.

No state can be prosperous if it is not safe. And our safety lies not in ghettoizing, but in imposing costs on terror and eliminating its ring masters. Not emotion ....cold logic. Arre even from the woman who claims she loves I want to see action on ground not mere words....and vice versa.

Deejay, khoon khaulta hai, on our blindness and idiocy.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 05 Jan 2016 23:46

^^^ well put.