Pathankot AirForce base under attack

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shiv
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 06 Jan 2016 07:35

Courtesy Shiv Aroor/Twitter
Image

There are 28 magazines of 30 round capacity - each round is 16 grams =about 14 kg in magazines alone. These men were carrying more than 1000 rounds of ammo enough for several days of fighting. they sneaked in unseen - they were not dumb. They had to stamina to carry all that weight - unless it was placed earlier.

Not your run of the mill Abdul.

You can expect that in Paki circles these men will be celebrated as men who got skill to beat the kafir from Alla. Except that their work was not done.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby milano » 06 Jan 2016 07:42

chandrasekaran wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Pathankot-terror-attack-Jihadis-made-dry-runs-at-Pakistani-air-base-intelligence-sources-say/articleshow/50461180.cms

<quote>
The specific details came amid speculation that Indian security forces may have captured alive at least one of the fidayeen raider or penetrated local collaborators of Jaish. However, there was no official confirmation
</quote>

Has anyone come across the bolded part in any other news item ?


No other (what passes as media) organization so far is displaying this particular story. Only ToI.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby manjgu » 06 Jan 2016 07:44

screambowl ???????

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_23365 » 06 Jan 2016 07:45

Rudalis know these are the best of best scums TSP produces but they are working on agenda.
They dont want mango man to be proud of valour shown by Indian forces against best scum thrown by enemy.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sumsumne » 06 Jan 2016 07:56

Questions raised over special forces not being deployed in Pathankot

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/questions-raised-over-special-forces-not-being-deployed-in-pathankot/story-RIIYl9bCIFG4QqhYXY2aiP.html

the benefit of hindsight.....

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Mihaylo » 06 Jan 2016 07:57

shiv wrote:
Anujan wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Pathankot-terror-attack-Jihadis-made-dry-runs-at-Pakistani-air-base-intelligence-sources-say/articleshow/50461180.cms

Pathankot terror attack: Jihadis made dry runs at Pakistani air base, intelligence sources say

Looks like they made a dry run again in Pathankot, judging from the aviation assets they devastated



lol :rotfl:

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Screambowl » 06 Jan 2016 07:59

manjgu wrote:screambowl ???????


What I posted is how enemy agency would plan such an attack and what points they would have taken into account , which could be real facts or virtual facts.

If there was no intelligence input from Indian agencies , what would be the intensity of this attack? Obviously devastating. But how much?

Inputs or no Inputs, the enemy selected a target close to the border. They analysed on ground facts about the lapses on Indian security apparatus and also knew that even after getting the input the Indian security agencies will need to give tough fight. Hence they executed their terror plan!

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby SwamyG » 06 Jan 2016 08:09

anjan wrote:It's extraordinarily stupid to allow ourselves to be laid siege to inside our own country and insist on fortified bases everywhere. We're reduced to discussing how to hunker down in our own borders. Those chaps could have lain in wait in a nullah 100 mts away and shot at offrs and men exiting the base. What next? All soldiers must only move in armd cars to buy subzi? In the hinterland?

Ultimately it has to be retribution that stops the source of the attacks and intelligence to prevent the few that the insane or the suicidal will still plan.

This advocacy for some super duper perimeter security everywhere is just flat out stupid from any perspective: manpower or financial. You can stop the casual low cost attacks. Pakistan throws proper well trained soldiers at us.

It is just, purely, an emotional response. Emotion is necessary and a motivation, but construing it as some kind of siege within ones country is stretching it a bit. The realty is military bases are vulnerable similar to non-military areas - the scale and levels differ. I say it is only emotional and not naïve because anyone who has been in BRF is assumed to be not naïve.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2016 08:11

Anujan, thanks for the data below. This looks more reasonable than the screenshots you posted (which were mentioned earlier by you?). The number of days training below seems much more likely, 10 months for overall training than the few months and Kasab was ready stuff.

Basically Pakistan is waging a special forces war on India and India has stopped it in Kashmir by making it a garrison state, so the desperate Pakistanis are trying to expand the conflict to all other areas.

Time to share the love with the Baloch and Sindhis.

Anujan wrote:
disha wrote:After some thoughts and reading through all the pages and news etc:

1. The jeehadis could possibily be Baki Army SSG - not a garden variety jeehadi., but a well trained commando force.

2. This was a remarkable operation., in that the NSA was almost on top of the event if not ahead.

3. The baki SSG Jeehadi force ended up making contact with DSC near the canteen (or at the canteen) because other areas were well defended. In that sense, this jeehadi attack achieved nothing.

4. All lives are precious., the DSC lives were lost because they were surprised and they were unarmed. Losing the chief of the bomb disposal squad was a very unfortunate accident.

So to say that this was a "failure of India/NSA/Modi/etc" and "it took so many days" is just being crass. I remember Op Blue Thunder vividly and it was a classic psychological game where the adversary was mentally worn out. So prolonging the counter-operation is one of the best way to achieve our goal, particularly when the critical assets are ascertained to be protected.

Further, by prolonging the operation., more evidence can come into picture and more players if there are any can be established since the Jeehadi Baki SSG Kamandus can be made to make mistakes.

And BTW, protecting a 20 sq. km area is not a joke.


Dont get caught with SSG/Jihadi confusion.

Do listen to Arif Jamal's talk and interview at the Hudson Institute (Moderated by Good Haqqani).

Basically he outlines how LeT functions. They "train" 50-100 candidates per week for 21 days (I dont remember the exact figure). Arif Jamal apparently personally went and saw these camps. He says that most of them dont know the business end of a rifle from the other end. Most of them had joined for the free food/stipend/weekend adventure camp.

Of these a few are talented. They are taken for a separate 3 month indoctrination/more training. Of those the ones with real talent/ability are selected and trained for six months more in skills like shooting, recce, IEDs, infiltration and so on.

Essentially what the Pakis have built is a Jihad factory and in that Jihad factory, they have built a talent scouting/training facility. Parts of this info were presented in Kasab's trial as well (newspapers carried bits and pieces of it). If you process 5000/10000 abduls (assume they process 100-200 per week), atleast 1-2 dozen would be special forces caliber. These are the ones who are being sent to India. And that is why they are extremely well trained and it is extremely difficult to neutralize them.

Mango abduls commenting in newspapers/writing DDM articles assume that terrorist training is rounding up some jobless abdul in a villiage, giving him a soosai vest and training him to should AoA!! in half a day and sending him across. Actually the fellows go through the process that I said above, and are professionally trained. The recruitment process is probably better than even the TFTA recruitment. So the idea of "rag tag" jihadi is a myth. Pakis may be incapable of manufacturing a bicycle chain, but their jihad manufacturing factory is among the finest in the world.

Watch this youtube video in entirity
https://youtu.be/rmT1WCurvsI?t=1506
(starting at 25m upto 32m and again from 42m and 44m he talks about training)

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Jan 2016 08:22

Sid wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Sorry if already posted, but for record..

"France condemns attack on Indian military base; stands alongside India in fight against terrorism"

Japan: "We condemn the terrorist attack.Terrorism cannot be justified for any reason. Japan expresses solidarity with gov & people of India"


For some reason I don't see folks changing their Facebook profile image background with Indian flag. I wonder why

:)

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Anujan » 06 Jan 2016 08:24

I think there is a reason why JK has cooled off. Our counter-terrorism in JK has reached a point where "casual jihadis" get shot while trying to cross over or simply get shot within 5 minutes of any attack. I think "indigenous groups" (read those recruited from JK) ceased in the mid to late 90s and groups from PoK ceased in the mid 2000s (after Mushy-agreed LoC ceasefire, op Parakram and fencing). So all the Mast Gul/Syed Salahuddin types are just old gas bags now.

That leaves the LeTs and JeMs which are *not* Kashmiri groups, they are Pakjabi groups. They have nothing to do with JK. The assumption that they are fighting for plebicite in JK or that they are trying to avenge Afzal Guru is a convenient myth. What Pakis are doing now is using Pakjabi groups for special forces tactics.

Take attacks in Afghanistan for example. India is not part of the ISAF. Yet Indian consulates have been attacked a lot more than the consulates of any ISAF country. Why would Taliban do that? Would they want to attack Massa/NATO country consulates (which are the countries which in fact are fighting the taliban) or do they want to attack India (India has worked on a few roads and built a few buildings. Like it or not, Taliban are rational. Why attack a country which is not fighting them?). The attacks on India's consulates are not by Taliban at all, it is again by these Pakjabi groups conveniently posing as Taliban or "avenging Afzal Guru's death".

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_20067 » 06 Jan 2016 08:26

I am just a noobie.. but unless you are very well disciplined in managing your ammunition stock how much of Ak-47 rounds you need to hold a large counter offensive force with no restriction on ammo at bay? Any thought? I mean they can't certainly survive for 3 days if they indiscriminately shoot like we see in videos of Syrian conflict

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby manjgu » 06 Jan 2016 08:27

screambowl..i was referring to something totally different. i was referring to the futility of gizmos( however useful they may be) in case of a surprise attack..detection of intrusion is one aspect but being able to counter it in time is another. with the kind of manpower that is generally available at a AF station, they will be hard pressed to stop well trained/drilled terrorists. the solution is something else, which many members have indicated. My dad used to go sometimes to the bank for cash collection for pay parade with 3/4 armed Airmen and he used to tell my mom ,,in case of a melee or attack they might end up shooting each other. the airmen had never really trained with weapons ...

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby deejay » 06 Jan 2016 08:38

Aditya G wrote:Deejay, mi-35s were tasked with airbase protection previously including during parakram. Any observations regarding their employment during this attack? Why they could not have used the chin mounted cannon? Or mi-17s with their gun pods for that matter


Use of Air Assets in CI Ops, specifically helicopters:
> I have fired from MI 17s and not MI 25 / 35s so I will be accurate for Mi 17 but generic for the attack helos
> Helicopters have heavy vibrations because of Main Rotor and TR
> Firing distance is between 700 mtrs to 01 kms ideally
> I mm shake in the gun per sec will get a large area spray over targets - Rockets or Bullets
> This shake is circular.
> Therefore, point targets are not good targets for helicopters.
> I see videos of Hinds in Syria and see them go after only area targets while using rockets and front guns.
> Terrorists were blocked in a small area by keeping our troops in firing distance.
> Moving our troops back would be required for any aerial firing (even fighters) and this would ease the pressure on terrorists as they could move in a larger area. Remember, casualties were being measured by all. Terrorists just need to be lucky - we need to be sure. AKMs have an approx effective range of 400 mtrs but lucky shots at 500 mtrs are not unheard of. So, our troops would have to move back from maximum 400 mtrs (or closer upto ~100 mtrs depending on cover ) to wider approx 500 mtrs net.

Additionally, after Kargil helicopters have not fired an angry shot while in Indian airspace. UN missions saw some actions. A clear case existed during Hill Kaka operations in 2003 but GOI did not permit use of any air assets in attack role. There have been other instances but we are reluctant to use air assets within India.

The FLIR camera on the Mi 25s were used (as per news reports) to locate movement below. Confirmation that they were Puki rats must have been done by ground assets.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 06 Jan 2016 08:43

deejay wrote:Remember, casualties were being measured by all. Terrorists just need to be lucky - we need to be sure.


Need to print this in large red letter on an A0 size paper, roll it up and push it up the musharraf of every breathless, hyperventilating reporter and their media editors

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Hari Seldon » 06 Jan 2016 08:51

shiv wrote:Need to print this in large red letter on an A0 size paper, roll it up and push it up the musharraf of every breathless, hyperventilating reporter and their media editors


Talking of the media, here's rrNDTV seemingly aiding Pak intel efforts ...

Image

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 06 Jan 2016 09:14

Prithwiraj wrote:I am just a noobie.. but unless you are very well disciplined in managing your ammunition stock how much of Ak-47 rounds you need to hold a large counter offensive force with no restriction on ammo at bay? Any thought? I mean they can't certainly survive for 3 days if they indiscriminately shoot like we see in videos of Syrian conflict


If they are holed up in a secure location/bunker and can see all access routes then they need not shoot at all until someone approaches. Unfortunately war stories (real life ones) are full of stories of men who disregarded this and rushed at the bunker and killed the occupants but were themselves fatally wounded. We saw it in Kargil and I read many gut wrenching stories in a book i recently bought about the 1965 war.

There are online WW 2 videos of American troops and tanks in Iwo Jima using flamethrowers to snuff out Japanese soldiers hiding in such a way. But because they hold their fire when well trained they are often discovered only when someone is shot. In any case flamethrowers do not have the range that assault rifles do.

I think these Pakis did not actually want to be discovered until they hit the airbase assets. But they cocked it up by calling mummy and getting spotted.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 06 Jan 2016 09:16

Good to know , some TIs were there at the base. FLIR of Hinds were used to spot intruders when they were inside the base. In the thick of Fog and darkness , passive detection is paramount. There are serious players in the market who specializes in military base protection . Early intel and the sacrifices of our Jawans saved the day . The present base protection setup is no way geared for the asymmetric warfare that we are witnessing . All these so called "gizmos" are force multipliers and hope GOI and our military top brass , invest on this deficiencies.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2016 09:19

Last edited by Karan M on 06 Jan 2016 09:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Picklu » 06 Jan 2016 09:20

ramana wrote:Picklu please answer this.


Just in the previous post I had admitted my mistake which Karan M so patiently explained thousandth of time that Daksh is not available in NSG which is paramil.

Didn't want to reopen this but since you specifically asked me, responding for clarification. No disrespect to you or anyone else.

ramana wrote:
And lots of demands about unobtanium gadgets.


Not so unobtenium. From here

Daksh is a battery-operated remote-controlled robot on wheels and its primary role is to recover bombs. Developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation, it is fully automated. It can climb staircases, negotiate steep slopes, navigate narrow corridors and tow vehicles to reach hazardous materials. Using its robotized arm, it can lift a suspect object and scan it using its portable X-Ray device. If the object is a bomb, Daksh can defuse it with its water jet disrupter.[2] It has a shotgun, which can break open locked doors, and it can scan cars for explosives.[3] With a master control station (MCS), it can be remotely controlled over a range of 500 m in line of sight or within buildings. Ninety per cent of the robot’s components are indigenous. The Army has also placed limited series production orders for 20 Dakshs.[4] The first batch of five units was handed over to General Combat Engineers, on 19 December 2011. The technology has been transferred for production to three firms, Dynalog, Theta Controls and Bharat Electronics Ltd.


ramana wrote:
Point is with available means was everything used to combat terrorists?


Yes and no. They utilized all they had within their respective org. However,at overall level, there appears to be scope(IMVHO) for better co-ordination like NSG utilizing Army's experience on handling Daksh when they themselves do not have such robot and similar. Would like to be educated if that is not feasible.

ramana wrote:
He was 34 year sold. A Lt Col at that age from Engineers!!!!


He also had a 2 year old kid who does not have a father today. I am eternally thankful to his contribution to the nation and proud to belong to the same nation as him but it will remain in my nature NOT to see 'positive' in such an avoidable(IMVHO) death.

This is no disrespect to the authorities who handled this op(they did improve a lot from past, no doubt and kudos to them) but merely pointing out the areas of further improvement.

And just to clarify, the area of improvement is not newer gadgets but better co-ordination among agencies to utilize all assets that we have at our disposal at the overall level.

I am not so hung up on other surveillance gadgets as it is almost impossible to avoid casualty at the first contact and that is where the rest 6 have died in this case. The pigs follow the Bollywood approach (releasing movie in as many halls as possible) to get the max bang at the first contact.
Last edited by Picklu on 06 Jan 2016 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2016 09:23

Fair enough. I wanted to ensure you thought it through. Thanks.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shiv » 06 Jan 2016 09:27


Need to call their mummies and tell them where they can see their sons' wedding photos

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby member_20292 » 06 Jan 2016 09:28

Akshay Kapoor wrote:This hard state soft state is BS. A state is a state and its primary job is to provide security to its people/civilization. I don't give a damn if its hard, soft, poached or fried. States that can diagnose and respond effectively to challenges survive, those who can't perish. We have a very clear threat from Pakistan inspired fundamentally from religion (Read Shiv's posts to get some perspective). They will not change. They are waging war on us on our own soil with 0 response from us. They are forcing us into a ghetto mind frame forcing us to devote more and more resources into protecting first x, then y, then z. Forget the impossibility and economic costs of doing that, there is a more fundamental point.

You know what ? X, Y, Z are on Indian soil, and I as as a free born Indian have a bloody right to go there unencumbered and without fear.

Our comprehensive national power is 10 times theirs and they are neutering all of that by these tactics.

No state can be prosperous if it is not safe. And our safety lies not in ghettoizing, but in imposing costs on terror and eliminating its ring masters. Not emotion ....cold logic. Arre even from the woman who claims she loves I want to see action on ground not mere words....and vice versa.

Deejay, khoon khaulta hai, on our blindness and idiocy.


Very well put. The blindness and idiocy comes from self centered, next election looking heads of state. We have someone better now and the expectations of action are higher.

And we need to affect the ring masters visibly. Bad Shareef, ISI chief and top honchos need to be affected properly for any message to get through to those who remain.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Raja Bose » 06 Jan 2016 09:38



These are the real Paki Special Forces, not the half arsed bearded SSG one sees in photo ops. In fact if the attackers were SSG, the civilians in Punjab would be more than capable of tackling them as they have shown in the past.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby shaun » 06 Jan 2016 09:39

How come those pigs are in one piece , i thought they will be in pieces with shits around , Have to admire the fire discipline of NSG . This is not the handiwork of 30 MM as HT have reported or these are group of 4 piglets who tried to intrude through the gate.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Kashi » 06 Jan 2016 09:39

shiv wrote:Need to call their mummies and tell them where they can see their sons' wedding photos


Especially call the ammi of the one who asked her son to "kuchh kha lena beta" and tell her, don't worry lady your son was dispatched to jahannum with a belly and body orifices full of lead.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2016 09:50

Shaun They look like first four wastrels. Calling them pigs insults Varaha.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Picklu » 06 Jan 2016 09:51

How does pak sustain the economy of daura-e-aam and daura-e-khaas? Those advanced trainings will cost significantly to be effective.

My theory is that deep state recruits x% more for SSG/SF training and once trained, removes x% from official roll who are ready and motivated enough to be "non-official cover operative"

The other tanjim based trainings are just low cost eye-wash for developing suicide vest wearing yahoos.

That is the only explanation to do this in any economically viable way.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2016 10:02

I read some WWII books on commando and spy training. The ISI has combined both. It eeriely looks like Force 136 type training I read in Burma Drop by John Beamish.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Jan 2016 10:21

Can we get the family details of pigs, and may be they should go to haj and be eliminated, and rest of Jihadis can they sort it out with thier management, or target some relatives of Pakis abroad, accidentally bring down a couple Agosta 90B's on Patrol. It must be cold, need not be today tomorrow but sometime within 6 months a lesson needs to be taught.

We should stop this uniformed vs non uniformed Jihadis differentiation and hitting a mud hut with a few Jihadi recruits for SF forces etc is waste of time.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby habal » 06 Jan 2016 10:24

regarding this whole thing about pakjabis being SF material ..

the Afghans and border tribes say pakjabis have very poor fighting skills and poorer morale. The same is said by the Sikhs who used to live amongst pakjabis. Except for some exceptions most are too used to soft life. That is how they lorded over the pakjabis for so long, it rankles in many that today pakjabis have taken over the army and are trying to reverse the age old narrative.

IMHO if pakjabis show such discipline in firing and scaling heights, camouflage and perseverence then it truly comes from long-term training. Short-term training may not cut it for such folks, you may be able to get away by training FATA folks and border area afghans with short term training because they lead very spartan militaristic lives in barren mountains. But pakjabis need lots more training to reach same levels of discipline and body conditioning. It is thus possible that these folks have undergone long-term training and may well be SSG dropouts or even cadets that are being weaned away from official run courses by jihadi organizations with full knowledge and complicity of TSPA. And then they are further trained privately or given training on how to live on captagon while reciting quranic verses and raping kafir wimmens and thus giving them glimpse of life in jannat that awaits them. Folks from poorer families who are weaned on religion and get through initial army training may bite at this prospect. But I suspect that this pool is not as large as is being made out to be and thus the recruits are trained to highest level and used judiciously.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jan 2016 10:25

Some quick points basis the pic of dead terrorists:

1. Shoes, look at their shoes. Not the sneakers which one found on dead piglets in Valley. These are same as worn by professional armies. I won't be surprised if these are ones with special soles to keep the noise down while walking/running. You can see NSG wearing same kind of shoes (http://www.livemint.com/rf/Image-621x414/LiveMint/Period1/2015/06/19/Photos/nsg-kUUB--621x414@LiveMint.jpg)

2. Clothing - someone pointed out this earlier as well that Pathankot at this time of the year is freezing cold. And I can personally attest to that. Staying out in the open means exposing yourself to bone chilling cold. These fellows had inner clothing below the combat uniform, woolen gloves and even woolen socks. And uppers are not shirts but jackets.

So, lot of attention to detail here. And again, SF level training combined with indoctrination makes them a lethal bunch.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby habal » 06 Jan 2016 10:34

on our side most of the commandos, including Lt.Col Niranjan who got married just 3 years ago are very young. Gursewak Singh just got married. Where are the older and more experienced folks and why are they not leading the ops and standing in line of fire. Experience is key in such situations and it does not bode well that the youngest and least experienced have to undergo this trial by fire. And both Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan and Lt. Col Niranjan hail from palakkad in Kerala. These areas are the least cunning and adept at 'self-preservation' and 'used to the ways of the world' folks. And i feel I am putting this rather crudely here but it needs to be told. I know of folks that will not approach a dead body of a terrorist until you get close by and someone can push them onto it, and that too maybe with malicious intent.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby chetak » 06 Jan 2016 10:50

rohitvats wrote:Some quick points basis the pic of dead terrorists:

1. Shoes, look at their shoes. Not the sneakers which one found on dead piglets in Valley. These are same as worn by professional armies. I won't be surprised if these are ones with special soles to keep the noise down while walking/running. You can see NSG wearing same kind of shoes (http://www.livemint.com/rf/Image-621x414/LiveMint/Period1/2015/06/19/Photos/nsg-kUUB--621x414@LiveMint.jpg)

2. Clothing - someone pointed out this earlier as well that Pathankot at this time of the year is freezing cold. And I can personally attest to that. Staying out in the open means exposing yourself to bone chilling cold. These fellows had inner clothing below the combat uniform, woolen gloves and even woolen socks. And uppers are not shirts but jackets.

So, lot of attention to detail here. And again, SF level training combined with indoctrination makes them a lethal bunch.


shoes are EPCOT brand, made by lahore's East Pakistan Chrome Tannery and the same have been used by other pigs in other attacks too.

also

sagnik chowdhury ‏@sagnik_c Jan 4
Pathankot terrorists were using modified AK-47s. Not with UBGLs, but something akin to mortar launchers @IndianExpress
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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby svenkat » 06 Jan 2016 10:51

Chindu weighing in
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/deploying-nsg-instead-of-army-was-a-mistake-experts/article8070161.ece

Image

rmy and security circles are bewildered and angry over the way the government kept the Army from the Pathankot terror hunt, especially in the early phase, when Army troops were available in thousands close by. Instead of pressing Army units into immediate action, precious time was lost in sending a few dozen NSG commandos from New Delhi.

“None of us can believe what they did. We have two infantry divisions and two armoured brigades in the vicinity. We have at least three corps headquarters in a couple of hours’ drive, and the Northern Army headquarters too. All of those troops are seasoned in carrying out counter-terror operations,” said a serving Brigadier posted close to Pathankot. “Instead, they wasted time to send a few dozen NSG commandos to the base?”

Lieutenant-General Prakash Katoch, a veteran para-commando and leading authority on special forces operations in India, said: “NSG is required for a specific target, it cannot tackle an area target.” He said that in a place such as the Pathankot airbase, the perimeter had to be secured first and combing operations to hunt down terrorists should have been initiated. “The Army is the best for that,” he said.

“There is no harm in sending the NSG, but then you should have a clear command and control. You cannot shove in the BSF, NSG, Army, etc, just like that. Was there a command and control there?” Gen. Katoch said.

General V.P. Malik, former Army chief, told The Hindu : “I don’t know if the NSG was the right one. They came from Delhi. It should be given to a local agency which knows the place.”

Former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali H.Major said: “Garuds were raised for a different mandate for special Air Force tasks and not anti-terror operations. The DSC personnel are basically re-employed people.”

A serving Army officer said that the Army with its 10 Special Forces units, and at least the one based in Udhampur, would have been in Pathankot in a couple of hours. “We practise all the time for such operations,” he said. “Instead, you send NSG commandos in the night. Who told them that they could defend the 24 sqkm of the base with 160 commandos?”

A senior serving officer said if the government had followed the management principle of “functional foremanship” which advocates the right man for the right job, it would have saved precious lives and ensured quick elimination of terrorists.

“It was not the job of the NSG or the Garuds. It is the job of the infantry,” he told The Hindu . The local Army unit conducts a recce of the entire airbase every six months, but they were not allowed to get in when the situation came, he said.

Lt.Gen. Vinod Bhatia, former Director-General of Military Operations, told The Hindu : “The operation was not handled the way it should have been. The fact is, it has gone on for too long. If the Army was called in, they could have a better cordon as they have more strength. There was no unity of command. There has to be a single commander given the wherewithal and authority.”

“The complete infantry of the Indian Army has been fighting counter insurgency for decades,” another officer noted, adding, “This could have been handled much better with fewer casualties.” “How many times has the government airlifted the NSG for operations in the Valley? The infantry has been fighting for a long time and has been doing a good job,” he said.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby sum » 06 Jan 2016 10:52

Where are the older and more experienced folks and why are they not leading the ops and standing in line of fire. Experience is key in such situations and it does not bode well that the youngest and least experienced have to undergo this trial by fire

Weren't we cribbing till now that in the IA ( esp J&K), senior folks were incorrect to be leading operations from the front and getting KIA/injured instead of letting junior officers doing the work and seniors only coordinating from background? :-?

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby chetak » 06 Jan 2016 10:54

the fog over the shady SP is slowly beginning to clear and the truth may be emerging.

more revelations may be forthcoming soon


Sanjay Dixit, IAS @Sanjay_Dixit

My sources saying SP had gone there to finalise a drug deal. Smugglers turned out to be terrorists n hitched a hike https://twitter.com/YRDeshmukh/status/6 ... 7175505920

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby habal » 06 Jan 2016 11:03

sum wrote:
Where are the older and more experienced folks and why are they not leading the ops and standing in line of fire. Experience is key in such situations and it does not bode well that the youngest and least experienced have to undergo this trial by fire

Weren't we cribbing till now that in the IA ( esp J&K), senior folks were incorrect to be leading operations from the front and getting KIA/injured instead of letting junior officers doing the work and seniors only coordinating from background? :-?


I have not cribbed about anything until now. this is my first, so kindly excuse.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2016 11:22

from a TSPA pov, given their huge manpower pool and training setups, why are they not sending 10 such teams across the border every quarter to create mayhem ? they know india is very unlikely to retaliate across the border.

this is what puzzles me.

it could be they are trying and our counter-intel is quietly killing them off under cover of encounters or unclaimed body thing. in recent few months CI has got very active and some 14 armed forces people are reported arrested for spying...could be a lot more in civilian sector.

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Re: Pathankot AirForce base under attack

Postby Aditya G » 06 Jan 2016 11:25

deejay; appreciate the information.

With a minimum 700m target distance, using heptr based firepower is basically infeasible as you are circling the site and there is very little margin for pointing your machine and directing fire on to a target. This is compounded by bullet dispersal and weight which will probably take down a small building instead of a man.

I am repeating this for each of us to recall when the next attack happens "why did we not send in gunships to support our troops etc". CRPF in naxalite areas also needs to know as they think that air support is their birth right and air force is unnecessarily reticent.

Interesting comments viz use of air power over India.

It is believed we took out one high altitude Dhok using rockets from a Mi-17:
Image

Our last know use of fighter air power was in 2002:
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-loonda-kargil-ii.html




deejay wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Deejay, mi-35s were tasked with airbase protection previously including during parakram. Any observations regarding their employment during this attack? Why they could not have used the chin mounted cannon? Or mi-17s with their gun pods for that matter


Use of Air Assets in CI Ops, specifically helicopters:
> I have fired from MI 17s and not MI 25 / 35s so I will be accurate for Mi 17 but generic for the attack helos
> Helicopters have heavy vibrations because of Main Rotor and TR
> Firing distance is between 700 mtrs to 01 kms ideally
> I mm shake in the gun per sec will get a large area spray over targets - Rockets or Bullets
> This shake is circular.
> Therefore, point targets are not good targets for helicopters.
> I see videos of Hinds in Syria and see them go after only area targets while using rockets and front guns.
> Terrorists were blocked in a small area by keeping our troops in firing distance.
> Moving our troops back would be required for any aerial firing (even fighters) and this would ease the pressure on terrorists as they could move in a larger area. Remember, casualties were being measured by all. Terrorists just need to be lucky - we need to be sure. AKMs have an approx effective range of 400 mtrs but lucky shots at 500 mtrs are not unheard of. So, our troops would have to move back from maximum 400 mtrs (or closer upto ~100 mtrs depending on cover ) to wider approx 500 mtrs net.

Additionally, after Kargil helicopters have not fired an angry shot while in Indian airspace. UN missions saw some actions. A clear case existed during Hill Kaka operations in 2003 but GOI did not permit use of any air assets in attack role. There have been other instances but we are reluctant to use air assets within India.

The FLIR camera on the Mi 25s were used (as per news reports) to locate movement below. Confirmation that they were Puki rats must have been done by ground assets.


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