India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

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Aditya G
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Aditya G » 20 Aug 2016 19:10

THE KILLING OF HAFIZ SAEED
Dear Hafiz Mohammad Saeed,

A few days ago, you exhorted the Pakistan Army to seize the initiative and “teach India a lesson”. You stood at your pulpit, all fire and brimstone, and told the Pakistan Army that Kashmir was burning, and the people would be ready to rise in “revolt against Indian oppression”. It was time, you said.

‘Carpe Diem’ strategies cost you half your country in 1971.

Pakistan’s Army has a habit of punching above its weight. To paraphrase a famous Americanism, they always bring a knife to a gunfight. I doubt your rousing speech gave goose bumps to anyone of consequence. I, however, suspect a rise in cases of peptic ulcers amongst the good generals of Rawalpindi.

There is a thin line between an asset and an embarrassment. The Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) was one such asset, which crossed the line. For you, there are only two ends. One, the Pakistan Army will, under pressure, disown you, leaving you to the proverbial dogs. Two, we will get a “kill order” and the boys from Sarsawa will pay you a visit.

The first option looks improbable. A deep sense of national insecurity, conventional inferiority and consistent military humiliation at India’s hands has forced Pakistan to clutch at straws. You are one such straw, this drawing gasps of horror from the world. Is this, what Pakistan’s last straw looks like?

Option two is more probable.

Sit back comfortably; I am about to explain to you the process leading to your very violent death. You must be attentive. These things are important.

A team of 8 “Special Group” (SG) operatives has gathered at CGO Complex, New Delhi for a mission briefing. A senior representative of RAW (Cabinet Secretariat) briefs the team. He is the mission controller. His code name is CACTUSLILY. The Special Group team leader is codenamed DRAGONFLY.
Today is D minus 7 (7 days before launch of the operation). The operation will be launched on D Day. Exfiltration will be on D Day. The operators have 7 days to rehearse.
D DAY
0015 hrs: The SG team takes flight in an Illushin IL 76 from Raja Sansi airport, Amritsar. The aircraft climbs to a height of 35,000 feet above sea level. The drop will be ahead of Ajnala in Indian Punjab. After dropping the load in Indian Territory, the IL 76 will take a steep turn to the right and fly back to Delhi. Ajnala (India) is 47 km from Muridke (Pakistan), as the crow flies.
0100 hrs: This is a HAHO jump (High Altitude High Opening). 10-15 seconds after the jump, the SG team deploy their parachutes. They are at a height of 32,000 feet and the outside temperature is -38 degrees. They are now gliding towards the International Border. The Pakistani radar cannot detect their movement, as their signature is negligible.
0110 hrs: The 8 Special Group operatives have now crossed into Pakistani airspace, undetected. They have the capability to glide for 35 kilometers before hitting the ground. DRAGONFLY adjusts his GPS and the rest of the team follows their leader. Height – 17,000 feet above sea level. Temperature is – 17 degrees.
0130 hrs: The SG operatives land at an isolated farmhouse outside Muridke. A local RAW agent, Mohammad Jamal is waiting for them with 2 black Toyota SUVs. The operatives quickly bury their parachutes and take off their jumping gear. They change into black tactical trousers and full sleeve collarless t-shirts. A black & white check keffiyeh is thrown around the neck. Radio frequencies are checked and locked. Watches are synchronized. Weapons check is done.
0145 hrs: DRAGONFLY is carrying an FN F2000 5.56 mm NATO standard issue bullpup assault rifle. In addition, he has a Glock 17 9mm pistol. He is connected to his team via a TCI Liberator 3 Duel Communication Headset. He carries RDX and C4 plastic explosives, with electrical detonators and 4 HE grenades.
His team is equipped with a wide array of weaponry. A few operators carry the Israeli Tavor TAR 21. Some prefer to carry the HK 417, a 7.62 mm beast. These are the heavy hitters. An assortment of explosives, claymore mines and grenades make up this happy group. Each operator also carries a PNVD (Passive Night Vision Device).
0155 hrs: The 8 operators get into the two Toyota SUVs and drive off towards Muridke, with Mohammad Jamal guiding them.
0215 hrs: The 2 SUVs quietly enter the Siraj Town area of Muridke. In the next 7 minutes, they are at Faisal Park. Mohammad Jamal signals to DRAGONFLY. 5 minutes to fury. The roads are deserted and dark, except for a few pie dogs. Load shedding ensures that the streets are unlit. :mrgreen: Perfect cover.
0225 hrs: The SUVs stop 200 meters behind the Jamaat ud Dawa gates. This is the headquarters of the Lashkar-e-Toiba. This is where Hafiz Mohammad Saeed lives.
0232 hrs: An SG operator scans to confirm intelligence reports. There are 2 guards at the main gate with AK47s. There are 7 other guards inside, each heavily armed.
0237 hrs: The guards are patrolling the gates, 20 meters apart. They are bored. Nothing has happened here in their memory. Without warning, an operator clamps his hand around the mouth of one of the guards, his knee pressing against the guard’s lower back. A Buckmaster knife slits the throat of the guard. The guard thrashes around in agony, blood gushing out of his throat. A few seconds later, the struggle becomes weaker. The guard stops moving. No sound. One down.
0239 hrs: The second guard is standing against the perimeter wall, wanting to ease his bladder. Unknown to him, a bright red laser dot appears at the back of his head. It is an operator with an HK 417, with a mounted silencer and a PNVD. There is a dull spitting sound and the guard’s head is blown off his shoulders. No sound. Two down.
Both bodies are pushed into the nearby drain.
0242 hrs: The team divides into two parts. Team One acts as the assault team and tactically moves to the residential quarters 300 meters to the right. Team Two positions two snipers to cover the exit of the assault team. The other two operators of the covering team start planting explosives and claymores.
0247 hrs: The assault team quickly moves near the residential block, taking care to avoid the moonlight. The loud throbbing of the diesel generator gives cover to the assault team. They slowly move up the stairs.
0249 hrs: The assault team takes a left turn and walks fifty paces. There is an armed guard visible outside a heavy wooden door, dozing on a stool. DRAGONFLY takes out his silenced Glock 17 and shoots the guard in the head. The soft 9 mm bullet enters the guard’s right temple and exits from the left side of the skull, taking away with it a part of the brain. The dead guard slips down from the stool, a pool of blood collecting near his face. Mercy killing. No sound. Three down.
0253 hrs: Soon there will be no element of surprise. It is now time for war. DRAGONFLY makes a hand signal and an operator moves to the heavy wooden main door. He places a C4 charge in 3 places on the heavy wooden door and connects them with a wire. The wire is connected to an electrical detonator, which is embedded into the C4. The other end of the wire is primed to a remote control device. Five, four, three, two, one…. GO. The plunger is pushed. With a sound like a thunderclap, the massive door disintegrates. DRAGONFLY rushes in, the other three operators following closely behind.
0257 hrs: The SG team starts searching the rooms, one by one. The first room has three dazed women. They are tied with plastic cuffs and locked in the room. The second room is empty. The third room has a portly middle-aged man with a long beard, wearing a white salwar-kameez, hiding behind a wooden almirah. "Dragonfly for Cactuslily, we have contact, over", says DRAGONFLY into the headset. The FN F2000 comes up, the fire selector switch on automatic. A three round burst is fired into the chest of Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, Amir of the Lashkar-e-Toiba. Hafiz Saeed falls. DRAGONFLY walks up to a bleeding Hafiz and puts two rounds between the eyes. Hafiz Saeed’s head explodes.
0302 hrs: There are screams from below, sounds of confusion interspersed with gunfire. DRAGONFLY bends down, takes out his Buckmaster knife and cuts off Hafiz Saeed’s ear, and puts it in a sanitized plastic pouch. This will help in DNA confirmation later.
0305 hrs: The cover team watches the drama unfold. As the AK47 toting guards’ rush towards the residential block, SG snipers pick them off one by one.
0309 hrs: The assault team and the cover team are now back into their SUVs and driving off, with Mohammad Jamal driving with a peculiar sort of urgency known only to those who are very afraid.
0315 hrs: Police teams enter the Head Quarters of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, five vehicles in all, with 30-armed policemen. The policemen collect near the main gate. At that exact time, an operator in the second SUV presses a button on his mobile phone using a Warid Telecom SIM card. 3 kg of RDX erupts from the ground. 18 policemen are killed immediately. The rest run into trip wires of systematically laid claymore mines; thousands of small steel balls tearing up living human flesh.
0333 hrs: The SG team is outside Muridke town, driving in pitch dark. DRAGONFLY locks his GPS to a grid reference. In 11 minutes, the GPS leads him to an open space in the outskirts of a village. Under the cover of a green hessian cloth is a Bell 429 helicopter. DRAGONFLY shakes Mohammad Jamal’s hand and starts the helicopter. The other operators load up. The SUVs are booby-trapped. As the rotors pick up speed, Mohammad Jamal runs to a shed and wheels out a rickety old motorcycle. He kick starts the bike and is soon lost in the dark and the dust.
0341 hrs: The Bell 429 takes off, soon reaching its maximum speed of 150 knots. DRAGONFLY takes care to fly it at 300 feet above the ground, to avoid radar. Radio contact is made with BSF to inform them of the exfiltration operation.
0359 hrs: SG operators enter Indian airspace.
Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, this is just one of the hundred ways we could kill you. The day is not far when the phone will ring and the voice at the other end of the line will tell us “Your mission has approval”.
When you were a young, naughty child and would not sleep, your mother would scare you by saying that a devil would come and eat you if you did not behave. Remember, you used to be so afraid!!! Look at this picture carefully and try to remember those stories. This is a soldier of the Indian Army Special Forces.
He is the man your mother warned you about.
Major Gaurav Arya (Veteran)
‪#‎KillingHafizSaeed‬ ‪#‎IndianArmy‬

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Karthik S » 20 Aug 2016 19:14

IMHO, we didn't have Mohammad Jamals. Hope we've created enough assets wherever required in the last two years.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 21 Aug 2016 19:55

The above letter by Maj Gaurav Arya is well intentioned and works if you are talking to people who have solid values.
But not for haramzadas like Half-is-suar saeed!
That man is a terrorist, but does not even have the balls to stand up and say that he is a terrorist when a camera is put on his face. Typical of a slimy Pakistani, he covers in his shalwar, and his voice changes to like that of a sad victim, against whom a lot of Julm has been done.

His tone again changes when he is giving fiery speeches to his LET gang members or at rallies in I-slum-a-bad.

Sheesh! It is india's fate and bad karma to have such cretins as these as opponents

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby darshhan » 23 Aug 2016 00:43

Gagan wrote:The above letter by Maj Gaurav Arya is well intentioned and works if you are talking to people who have solid values.
But not for haramzadas like Half-is-suar saeed!
That man is a terrorist, but does not even have the balls to stand up and say that he is a terrorist when a camera is put on his face. Typical of a slimy Pakistani, he covers in his shalwar, and his voice changes to like that of a sad victim, against whom a lot of Julm has been done.

His tone again changes when he is giving fiery speeches to his LET gang members or at rallies in I-slum-a-bad.

Sheesh! It is india's fate and bad karma to have such cretins as these as opponents


But why do we consider him as an opponent. He is just a tool. A follower.

The real opponents are the ISI and Pakistani Army bosses. All retaliation options including the one suggested by Maj Gaurav Arya need to be focussed on ISI and Pak Army (especially the senior and middle echelons). This ofcourse is in addition to enhancing and enabling the various resistance movements inside current territory occupied by pak army.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 23 Aug 2016 03:28

Pakis are claiming that a "foreign" intel service in association with MQM, is assassinating pak mil people in karachi.
It is not possible to tell if this is the another one in the series of 'RAA/CIA/Mossad out to destroy pakistanis' or something plausible.

After they kidnapped Retd. Kulbhushan Yadav, they are imagining an enemy in every shadow.
PM Modi's statement which was followed by statements from Bangladesh and Afghanistan must have sent the paranoia levels in Pindi to new levels :twisted:

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Aditya G » 07 Sep 2016 00:04

Facebook post by maj Gaurav arya (retd)



IMAGINARY FEARS

I guess it’s the way we have been brought up; the societal pressure not to question or object, lest someone of significance takes offense. We don’t question elders, teachers or anyone who we feel may be offended. So, we put our heads down, lead our submissive lives and go to meet our maker, heads bowed.

This attitude extends to our national security. We are always tentative, always on the back foot.

Sample this. Pakistan and India are both nuclear powers, and a month does not pass by when Pakistan does not remind us, directly or obliquely, about this. The Pakistani play is simple; don’t think you can push us. We have nuclear weapons that can turn New Delhi and Mumbai into ash in a matter of minutes.

Under the protection of this nuclear umbrella, Pakistan launches Kargil, 26/11 and the Parliament attacks. It does so with absolute impunity, supremely confident that India will never respond. Well, that part is true. India has, true to form, never responded.

Not a year goes by when the People’s Liberation Army of China does not encroach upon Indian Territory, regular as the monsoon. China defeated us in a short vicious border war in 1962, with no mean help from the nation’s Chacha, the redoubtable Nehru and his defence minister Krishna Menon. Students keen on military history must read Brigadier John Dalvi’s iconic treatise, The Himalayan Blunder. So shocking were the facts that government of the day banned the book. But the truth is the truth. Ask any Indian Army officer, and he will swear by Dalvi’s magnificent 506 pages of pure truth.

The Indian Army has put the defeat behind it and has built, drilled, modernized and trained itself to an impossibly high degree of perfection. We have raised new mountain divisions and strike corps. Yes, the Chinese Army is still much larger and better equipped. But this is not 1962. And the Indian Army is no pushover.

We have the capability to make it extremely expensive for China to wage war. Let me put it simply; we have the means to seriously degrade and denude China’s war machine.

We are as honed to a razor’s edge, as we will ever be. But the Indian Army is like a Samurai’s Katana, forever in the scabbard of political will. And that is our greatest misfortune.

We are not warmongers. We are the last people on earth who want a war, because it is we who die and we who kill. It is our bodies, which come back, wrapped in the tri-color. But go to war, we must.

A man may live without food and water for days. He may even live without air for a few minutes. But how may a man live without honor, even for a moment?

It breaks a soldier’s heart when he sees Pakistan sending terrorists from across the Line of Control, and he is not allowed hot pursuit, back into Pakistan. A soldier dies a thousand deaths when his brother’s are martyred in Kargil, and there is no consequence for Pakistan. It crushes his spirit when the Chinese Army walks into Arunachal Pradesh and stakes claim on his motherland.

All because our political leadership has always been beset by imaginary fears.

Imaginary fears like, if we respond Pakistan will use tactical nuclear weapons. If we are aggressive, the world will think lesser of us and we will not be considered a mature democracy. And, China will be angry.

Every body dies. That is God’s law. Lets quit philosophizing about it. I remember what a Gurkha soldier had once told me in Kashmir – “Kaphar hunnu bhanda marnu ramro”. It is better to die, than to be a coward.

Political analysts will laugh at the simplicity of the Gurkha soldier. They may even derisively call him a simpleton, not understanding of how this complex world works. Maybe so. But a person who is willing to kill and die for his beliefs and his code of honor will always walk with the gods. His place will never be amongst those timid souls who lived their lives, beset by imaginary fears.

Not for a moment am I advocating war for war’s sake. I am as much for peace as the next person. I am willing to bend over backward if it can stop blood from being spilt.

But know this - a nation does not live on its knees. That is something that our political masters will have to understand.

Nothing will happen if you cross the LoC and give Pakistan a bloody nose. There will be no nuclear war. We are a nuclear power, too. That did not stop Pakistan from launching Kargil. Then why must we be so mentally fragile, so tentative? Let’s cross over and break Pakistan’s spine once; a quick and extremely violent operation near Lahore, the heart of Pakistan.

The next time you have the PLA troops crossing over into India, kill a few and capture the rest. There will be a diplomatic row. Indian political analysts will go on national TV and decry the sheer “immaturity” of the action. But our aim will have been achieved. China will get the message. China always gets the message if it is explained to them in the language they understand.

You cannot negotiate from a position of weakness. You cannot live on your knees.

Ancient Japanese sword makers would consider a Katana sharp enough only if it could cut through strands of hay floating in the air. The Indian Army is your Katana. Trust your Katana, for it is the most formidable fighting blade this world has ever seen.

Unleash us. Let the Katana cut through bone and sinew. That is who we truly are; hunters of men and gatherers of souls.

Major Gaurav Arya (Veteran)

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby RoyG » 07 Sep 2016 00:54

The only long lasting retaliation to terror is a change in public policy.

This means reforming the judiciary, fast track courts, election reform, economic liberalization, education reform, etc.

Everything else is just time pass.

You can kill 20 jihadis across the border, and they'll have 500 to replace them.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Cosmo_R » 07 Sep 2016 03:11

@Aditya_G ^^ What more can I say about the pusillanimity of successive Indian governments. I still have big hopes that NaMo's approach will unleash us to punch at our weight.

Much of it is deterrence. If you look like a bad boy, everybody's going to think twice about messing with you. If you are predictable, you're going to be taken to the Rubicon each time. During the Yom Kippur war, Nixon put US forces on high threat (defcon 3)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON

The objective was to make him appear 'unreasonable' and he frightened the USSR.

If you threaten and the enemy doesn't blink, you must take a bite. Else, you are a paper tiger. Next round, they will up the ante.

The time is long past that we can afford to be reactive. We have a golden opportunity: US needs us on their side WRT China, the QPQ is we get to really ratchet up the costs to Pakistan. We have willing/impatient friends/allies in Afghan forces who can provide us the 'plausible deniability' and have the feet on the street. Think, all the arms we have seized in Kashmir...:)

But we must not be reactive. We must make pakistan sue for peace as they did in 1971. Where are the soft spots, the underbelly?

Baluchistan are the guts but the defense colonies are the ba$ls. Hearts and minds will follow. Don't forget Kaluchak or te Red Fort.

It needs will. It's within our grasp.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Aditya G » 08 Sep 2016 01:26

What we have now is:

1. Elected leadership who wants to take punitive action. I say leadership as the whole GoI ecosystem is status quoist. On face value at least, NaMo, MP and Rajnath Singh have repeatedly conveyed they are not going to take things lying down. Junior ministers such as Rathore and Gen VK Singh are of course more forthright. One should not forget Sushma Swaraj who is also proactive on security matters of countrymen across the world. Then Ajit Doval as NSA ofcourse.

2. Evidence of small actions:
- Myanmar Special Op
- Robust responses to LoC ceasefire violations
- Pathankot op: we were actually in proactive mode thanks to intel. Just plain bad luck on casualty front.

Now it is a matter of time when a big operation happens. Like you said, "Its within our grasp".

Cosmo_R wrote:@Aditya_G ^^ What more can I say about the pusillanimity of successive Indian governments. I still have big hopes that NaMo's approach will unleash us to punch at our weight.

Much of it is deterrence. If you look like a bad boy, everybody's going to think twice about messing with you. If you are predictable, you're going to be taken to the Rubicon each time. During the Yom Kippur war, Nixon put US forces on high threat (defcon 3)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON

The objective was to make him appear 'unreasonable' and he frightened the USSR.

If you threaten and the enemy doesn't blink, you must take a bite. Else, you are a paper tiger. Next round, they will up the ante.

The time is long past that we can afford to be reactive. We have a golden opportunity: US needs us on their side WRT China, the QPQ is we get to really ratchet up the costs to Pakistan. We have willing/impatient friends/allies in Afghan forces who can provide us the 'plausible deniability' and have the feet on the street. Think, all the arms we have seized in Kashmir...:)

But we must not be reactive. We must make pakistan sue for peace as they did in 1971. Where are the soft spots, the underbelly?

Baluchistan are the guts but the defense colonies are the ba$ls. Hearts and minds will follow. Don't forget Kaluchak or te Red Fort.

It needs will. It's within our grasp.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby TKiran » 16 Sep 2016 15:06

1999 paper in satp Dr Bhashyam Kasturi with the help of late shri B Raman

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/idr/vol_16(2)/kasturi.htm

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2016 15:33

here we go again.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Guddu » 18 Sep 2016 15:53

Until India takes action, we should call this the Impotent Rage thread....

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2016 16:53

how about a different take on border management ? let's turn the area from IB/LoC onwards into a "peace zone".

our current border management policy is defensive and the problems with that have been glaringly conveyed to us by pak through the events of last few years. a fence based strategy is not even reactive, it is inactive. the best we can hope to do is thwart individual efforts. there are no costs to the puppet masters. the active perpetrator always has the upper hand. it can make the decision on where and when to fight. and also because it is willing to sacrifice 100's of grass-eaters in order to gain one success against the kufrs. for us, even one failure is unacceptable.

we cannot talk of covert options sensibly, so what overt option do we have ? option that checks 3 boxes, viz. inflicts punishment on pak deep state, deters infiltration directly & indirectly, doesn't bring the issue to nukes.
one 'active defence' policy option might look like this :- instead of piling even more defensive installations like fences and sensors, declare a belt of 5 km (say) inside pak/PoK from the IB/LoC as no-go area for pak, military or otherwise. both as a punitive measure for not stopping cross border terrorism and also to ensure future attacks become difficult.

any pak installation /force that comes within that "peace zone" would be fair target for Indian military. enforce the "peace zone" with artillery, UAV overflights to keep an eye on violations and air cover to be prepared for any eventuality. utilize all serviceable reserve arty & shells for this purpose. simply put, no TSPA/Jehadi should stay be left alive & well in that zone. sanction additional fund for this policy if needed. that cost would be amortized by lower requirements policing internal areas. in any case, it would be a cost worth paying in lives that are not lost to the subhumans.

if we limit the policy to J&K, pak wont dare to respond with big conventional force for that would quickly escalate this into a multi theater full blown war which they would definitely lose. their only options would be to a) either stop attacks in the near term and hope this policy blows over in the long term or b) continue as before with infiltration attempts but these would be much more difficult under an active peace zone policy.

either way, advantage us.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby asinh » 18 Sep 2016 17:06

Sadly all we can do is to dream of hitting back. A few prithvis launched at terrorist camps would make them think. As it is, it is a case of too much analysis leading to complete paralysis.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby SSridhar » 18 Sep 2016 17:19

asinh wrote:As it is, it is a case of too much analysis leading to complete paralysis.

Agree. There is no need to prove that these terrorists are from Pakistan. There is no need to show the markings of weapons & grenades as Pak Army's. There is no need to trace their handlers back or playback intercepted messages. There is no need to distinguish between state & non-state actors from Pakistan. We don't have to prove anything to anyone. Pakistan is a terrorist state, whether anybody else accepts that formulation or not. we have been attacked and we counter-attack. It was not like the 70s & 80s for us when we were worried about umpteen things going against us. Now, others also need us. We are a big & powerful country, economically, militarily and politically. Retaliation must be swift and disproportionate as we showed last year when the PA shelled our positions. If other countries are worried, let them put pressure on TSP to stop its activities. We should no longer listen to 'advice' from others on this matter, especially the US. Several times after 26/11, the American officials have said that India could not be expected to show restraint in the future. Yet, we did show restraint several times, including after the Pathankot attack. The gloves are to be off now and the other countries must understand.

This would also send a message to China that its investments in Pakistan cannot be guaranteed.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby asinh » 18 Sep 2016 17:56

This would also send a message to China that its investments in Pakistan cannot be guaranteed.[/quote]

The message should be clear. If this GOI team cannot act, nobody will. All we can do is mourn the dead.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gus » 18 Sep 2016 18:03

AF experts - is it not possible for a limited air raid targeted at specific stuff like depots, training camps etc? Is it just the factor of retaliation and escalation that stops this - or operational risks?

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Ramesh » 18 Sep 2016 18:16

Why restrict to air or ground. Lets think deep. Couple of Pakistani subs on patrol don't come back. Nobody sees or hears anything.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby jagga » 18 Sep 2016 18:19

Nothing will work. We need to grab land with each terror attack! Although easier said than done. If we are capable of land grabbing , I think we should go for it. If we do not have then we must build the capability.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Guddu » 18 Sep 2016 18:21

While a military response is being formulated, we can give citizenship to brahmdagh bugti, 17 man pads to the Baloch army, one for each of our own dead. I suspect Dovalji has started to act behind the scenes, just as MP has said, wait 6 months for the results. These actions are causing pain to pakis, but it's not enough for them to stop misbehaving. Pain must be increased.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby JayS » 18 Sep 2016 18:36

^^ All the behind curtain diplomacy and all is well and good, but we need to manage the perception as well which mainly comes from overt punitive actions. We need some very overt pointed action items such as bombing of some rat holes in POJK, decimation of large number of PA posts across the border, kicking out diplomats, suspending all the trade et al, throwing Pak out of SAARC, economic warfare..we have so many options. THe message should be loud and clear and with a bang.

We can't wait for month for retaliation on such things. Ideally something should be happening tonight. But for that a readymade plan is necessary. Do we have such pre-planned ops which can be activated in retaliation of just such events??

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Karthik S » 18 Sep 2016 18:38

+1

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby TKiran » 18 Sep 2016 19:00

I still think there is need for restraint.

I have a story from Mahabharata. When "keechaka" was intent on molesting "sairandhri", all the four of the pandavas were jingoistic, except for" kankubhattu" who also wanted the revenge but the time was not suitable. They had to bide time to complete the 1 year of ajnathavaasa. They can't kill "keechaka" as everyone knows that only "bheem" could kill "keechaka" and their cover would be blown off the moment "keechaka" would get killed. They waited till the vijayadashami, everyday listening to abuses of "sairandhri", but didn't do anything, and when the time came, they drew him to a place of their choice and killed " keechaka " in the most gruesome manner by gauging his eyes, pulling open the stomach and intestines, smashing the legs like paste, tearing open the torso etc.,

It's not if but when the Pakistan is going to be wiped off. And it will be of our choice and our game, our time and our own strategy. Already the process has started, that is the reason for desperation of Pakistan, they are itching to use Ns, we should draw them to reveal their N assets and do simultaneous preventive attack and in that process split Pakistan. 3months should be right time for splitting Pakistan from today, we should start our game to draw them to provoke them to start scrambling their N assets. Mark them and surprise...

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby nandakumar » 18 Sep 2016 19:01

The Pathankot Airforce Base attack happened in Jan 2016. I am not sure if there was any event in Pakistan that happened which could possibly be linked to as an act of retaliation. Even speculation about such possible linkages would be fine. Any thoughts from those in the know?

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby ldev » 18 Sep 2016 19:18

Pathankot was Pakistan's response to loud talk from Indian politician's about cross border raids into Pakistan after the June 2015 Myanmar operation. Basically they called the Indian politician's bluff.

This Uri attack IMO is Pakistan's reminder that it continues to control the terrorist tap and is in response to India's efforts to link Baluchistan to the Kashmir issue.

India needs precise offensive capabilities which it does not currently have e.g. armed drones which will hit terrorist targets including in major Pakistani cities within hours of any such attack on India.

There has to be a cause and effect and it has to be immediate within hours and days.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Vivek K » 18 Sep 2016 19:19

Baluchistan - Gwadar could be one such area where India can look at extending moral support to the Baluchis.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby tsarkar » 18 Sep 2016 19:26

How many remember N R Narayana Murthy led a delegation of industrialists to meet A B Vajpayee asking him not to go to war during Op Parakram in 2002 because FDI had just picked up in India after 1998 and war would scare investors?

Sadly, one of Modi's support base includes industrialists and business magnates, who would suffer flight of capital and loss of valuation, and despite "Kadi Ninda", nothing will come out of this Govt.

Burma/Myanmar equation was much simpler compared to this.

We who speak of honour are few.

Unless all sections of our citizenry say enough is enough, the "greater good of greater many", ie economy providing livelihood to the masses, will bind the hands of our leaders who would then listen to the people instead of vested interests hogging main stream media.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2016 19:32

>> How many remember ...

just about everyone on BRF.
from 90's to late 2000's the DDM had the exclusive privilege of 'representing' public opinion, even manufacturing it as required. they could thus get govt's of the day to believe their version of events as the public mood, like when ndtv & co. convinced every politician that giving in to the IC814 hijackers was what the country wanted. with the advent of SM this has become much more difficult.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby darshhan » 18 Sep 2016 19:40

cold start etc is good. but this is what Indian army needs to prepare for.

Deep Operations

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby ldev » 18 Sep 2016 19:57

>>Sadly, one of Modi's support base includes industrialists and business magnates, who would suffer flight of capital and loss of valuation, and despite "Kadi Ninda", nothing will come out of this Govt.

That is why India's retaliation options have to be such as to not trigger a major war. Just as Pakistan's terrorism is below the major war threshold, India's response has to be similar though proportionately bigger.

That is why I have become a big believer in armed drones for such missions. It is no accident that the US in recent years has resorted almost exclusively to drones to attack targets in the Middle East as well as Afghanistan/Pakistan.

For India, instead of the never ending Rafale deal which has fixated everyone and will divert financial and personal resources to an aircraft which will almost never be used in war, an Indian counterpart to the US MQ-9 Reaper is what is needed urgently. The Rustom 2 should be developed asap, because any US drone imports will always have the danger of India not being able to use them for US fear of Indian retaliation triggering a larger India-Pakistan war.
Last edited by ldev on 18 Sep 2016 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby tsarkar » 18 Sep 2016 19:59

^^ As an example, if Pakistan launches a worthless missile that explodes a conventional 1000 kg warhead over an ODC in Whitefield or Hebbal and just damage the roof without causing any human casualties inside like Dwarka 1965, yet Indian and Foreign MNC's would start shutting down their ODCs in the city citing delivery risk and move jobs to Philippines.

How many out of work IT/ITES employed BR Members would still support an all out war? How many will have surplus money after roti, kapda, makaan to pay for 4G bandwidth to post on BRF?

We as citizens are not psychologically prepared for war. Unless that changes, a few 100's or 1000's killed won't make a difference.

The Israeli's faced national extermination in 1948, 1967 & 1971, and the entire nation was mobilised. In 1971, IG was able to mobilise the entire nation. Unless that happens, nothing changes.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Guddu » 18 Sep 2016 20:04

I cannot imagine, we are unprepared with a list of action items. After Pathankot, I am sure GOI looked into their options and for whatever reason gave Pak a chance. If action will happen, I suspect it will be after the UN meeting next week. If it does not happen next week, it means no overt action is to be expected.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Sicanta » 18 Sep 2016 20:05

Time for strategic restraint over - Ram Madhav

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... IIndiaNews

So Pathankot airbase attack wasn't enough to cross the redline?

Is this the counter plan by the gov ....

Ram Madhav said that time has come for the world to declare Pakistan as a terrorist state and isolate it. "I am sure this issue will be taken up seriously in the upcoming United Nations General Assembly, especially after today's dastardly attack on our soil. Countries all over the world, in Europe and the West, are now realising that most of the global terror incidents emanate from the soil of Pakistan," he said.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Karthik S » 18 Sep 2016 20:08

World realize, world declare, world this world that. Let them ask for world's help to win next elections.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Guddu » 18 Sep 2016 20:09

I think GOI is obliged to wipe out JEM/LET HQ, good chance to check the accuracy of Brahmos. Anyone living near these places is fair game...

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby RoyG » 18 Sep 2016 20:11

Guddu wrote:I cannot imagine, we are unprepared with a list of action items. After Pathankot, I am sure GOI looked into their options and for whatever reason gave Pak a chance. If action will happen, I suspect it will be after the UN meeting next week. If it does not happen next week, it means no overt action is to be expected.


1 week is too far out.

India has to beat foreign pressure.

If nothing within 72 hours, we can kiss retaliation goodbye.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Paarth » 18 Sep 2016 20:14

what stops multiple special forces raids in parallel on LOC porki bunkers/advance camps... roast the mofos.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby tsarkar » 18 Sep 2016 20:16

ldev wrote:That is why India's retaliation options have to be such as to not trigger a major war. Just as Pakistan's terrorism is below the major war threshold, India's response has to be similar though proportionately bigger.
Pakistan tries to lower the nuclear threshold by stating any SF / drone strike would be considered full fledged war, though our massive retaliation concept helps.

ldev wrote:That is why I have become a big believer in armed drones for such missions.

Pakistan has purchased more US and Jordanian AH-1 Cobras (ironically some transferred from Israel to Jordan for GWOT) and Russian Mi-35 that can target MALE drones quite easily. They also have adequate quantities of SPADA (Akash equivalent), RBS-70, Mistrals and Stingers. US AN/TPS-77 and Siemens MPDR radars. US flies in uncontested aerospace. Pakistan has means to make mincemeat of slow flying Predators, Reapers and Avengers. Drone medium altitude makes them most vulnerable to SAMs.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby tsarkar » 18 Sep 2016 20:21

Sicanta wrote:Is this the counter plan by the gov ....
Ram Madhav said that time has come for the world to declare Pakistan as a terrorist state and isolate it. "I am sure this issue will be taken up seriously in the upcoming United Nations General Assembly, especially after today's dastardly attack on our soil. Countries all over the world, in Europe and the West, are now realising that most of the global terror incidents emanate from the soil of Pakistan," he said.

Sadly yes. Maybe send another dossier of Pakistani stamped AKs. They'll ask for the AK's for a detailed inspection and give them to next BAT.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby ldev » 18 Sep 2016 20:31

>>Pakistan tries to lower the nuclear threshold by stating any SF / drone strike would be considered full fledged war, though our massive retaliation concept helps.

Pakistan has gotten away to date by telling India," When we send terrorists across, that is below the threshold of major war, but if you dare to retaliate, any retaliation on your part will be considered major war." I personally think that is a bluff. I doubt whether an Indian drone retaliation strike into Pakistan will make Pakistan launch nukes.

>>US flies in uncontested aerospace. Pakistan has means to make mincemeat of slow flying Predators, Reapers and Avengers. Drone medium altitude makes them most vulnerable to SAMs.

That is why Indian tactics have to suit Indian conditions. For starters, major investments will have to be made into airborne and ground based ECM equipment which will have to provide cover for any Indian drone attacks. India's armed forces investments have to be prioritized into areas that will help it fight this "undeclared war" which is happening now as opposed to a potential declared war. It helps that Pakistan is not a broad country and the much touted India-Afghan relationship should not just be "talk talk".


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