India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

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Kashi
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Kashi » 19 Sep 2016 07:20

Gagan wrote:A lot of terrorist pigs are living the last few weeks of their lives.
They should take a 'Notuss' and proceed accordingly. Retribution is surely arriving for these terrorists and their sponsors


I'll believe it when I see it GaganJi. The terrorist piglets have a lifespan of few weeks anyway. Their sponsors have never been touched in the past. What makes you believe that this time it's different.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Nihat » 19 Sep 2016 07:45

The biggest weapon in our hands is the Indus water treaty. With that in hand we do not need any missiles, any casualties of soldiers, nothing. At the very least, even the willingness to revoke it, will send the strongest possible to the pigs. We can cite fundamentally changed circumstances to revoke this unfair treaty which grants is only 19.98 %of the water from the Basin.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Pratyush » 19 Sep 2016 08:38

A lot of people are thinking about retaliation, but retaliation will not stop aggression. We need to start thinking in a very basic way. My position is very simple. He who can destroy a thing controls a thing. Unless the TSP, is not clear about the outcome, no progress can ever be made.

Are member of BRP even prepared to contemplate such a step.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby ashbhee » 19 Sep 2016 08:45

Nihat wrote:The biggest weapon in our hands is the Indus water treaty. With that in hand we do not need any missiles, any casualties of soldiers, nothing. At the very least, even the willingness to revoke it, will send the strongest possible to the pigs. We can cite fundamentally changed circumstances to revoke this unfair treaty which grants is only 19.98 %of the water from the Basin.



Sindh and Punjab has waster wars like states in India do. We should state that we want to make sure Sindh gets fair share of water and invite Sindh CM to next round of water sharing talks under Indus treaty. They will not let Sindh CM come and war of words between Punjab and Sindh will escalate. Fuel to the separatist Sindh and Balochistan fire.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby arshyam » 19 Sep 2016 09:01

kittigadu wrote:This was an attack on the Indian army. The government should step back and let the army retaliate any way it wants to cause 5x the casualties. Rest is all talk.

6 Bihar and 10 Dogra should lead the way. That's what happened in Myanmar last year.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby partha » 19 Sep 2016 10:25

http://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/after-uri-strike-india-must-impose-measured-costs-on-terror-exporters/story-kkAuM0SPS90XYvfXYU7ExK.html
Brahma Chellaney

India needs a comprehensive, proactive approach. The choice is not between persisting with a weak-kneed approach and risking an all-out war. This is a false, immoral choice that undermines the credibility of India’s nuclear and conventional deterrence and encourages the enemy to sustain aggression. It is also a false argument that India has no choice but to keep battling Pakistan’s unconventional war on its own territory. Seeking to combat cross-border terrorism as an internal law-and-order issue is self-injurious and self-defeating.

Make no mistake: India’s response to the Pakistani strategy to inflict death by a thousand cuts should no longer be survival by a thousand bandages. Rather, India must impose calibrated costs to bolster deterrence and stem aggression. Why should India allow itself to be continually gored by a country that is much smaller than it demographically, economically and militarily and on the brink of becoming dysfunctional? Just because India shied away from imposing costs on the terror masters in Pakistan for their past attacks on Indian targets, from Mumbai to Kabul, is no reason for it to stay stuck in a hole.

To deter Pakistan’s unconventional warfare, India’s response must be spread across a spectrum of unconventional options that no nation will discuss in public. Nuclear weapons have no deterrence value in an unconventional war. If the Pakistani security establishment is to get the message that the benefits of peace outweigh hostilities, it should be made to bear most of the costs that India seeks to impose. India should employ asymmetric instruments to strike hard where the opponent doesn’t expect to be hit. New Delhi should also be ready to downgrade diplomatic relations with Pakistan and mount pressure on its three benefactors, China, America and Saudi Arabia.

India’s goal is narrow: to halt cross-border terrorist attacks. In keeping with the United Nations Charter, which recognises self-defence as an “inherent right” of every nation, India must impose measured and pointed costs on the terror exporters without displaying overt belligerence or brinkmanship.
(The writer is a geostrategist and author.Views expressed are personal)

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Pratyush » 19 Sep 2016 10:40

I say give peace a chance, destroy Pakistan.

Gagan
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2016 14:26

Pakistan's expertise is in covert warfare and terrorism.
Ours is in diplomacy, economy, overt warfare.

For once please let us put ALL our tools to bear on the enemy

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby ricky_v » 19 Sep 2016 14:39

our expertise in diplomacy is a phrase that has not yielded anything positive to us. it has solely consisted of sitting on our hands at the big boys table and for the larger part accept the blame that everything bad occurs to us because of our internal policies and outdated k mindset. where are our own doctrines in the public sphere that pertain to these questions clearly except perhaps for nfu?

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Chandragupta » 19 Sep 2016 15:44

I find it absolutely laughable that we are still talking about international community. Who the F cares? Diplomacy my foot. Some ministers in NDA are still talking about 'isolating Pakistan'. Buffoons. Will USA just dump Pakistan because master hugger Modi said so? Or will China dump Pakistan like this? Either attack or leave office and confess that you lied to the nation and you're no different than the last regime and while we are at it, I'd also like to see Modi tender an apology to MMS. 56" inch ki chhaati, let's see.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2016 16:02

It is better to talk softly, I am willing to give 3 months for a suprise attack from our side, however, past experience is anything to go buy we will be back to Aman Ki tamasha with no real fightback.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Sicanta » 19 Sep 2016 16:07

^^ Haven't the people given 8 months since pathankot airbase attack? In another 3 months, only the perception and derogatory terms like 56 inch will stick with modi ji. His inaction and not his enemies may prove to be his undoing.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Sicanta » 19 Sep 2016 16:15

We seem to have become butt of many jokes

https://twitter.com/kkrishna338/status/ ... 0124268544

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby kittoo » 19 Sep 2016 16:23

lol at 'isolating pak'. We are at this bullshit again? who the hell cares about this? It's such a weak response that even Pakis wouldn't be able to not laugh at it. Yeah. Go isolate while our soldiers die. I have never been angrier at this government. How is this different from what the Congress did? If this is our 'nationalist' government, then God help us!

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Lilo » 19 Sep 2016 16:31

As an immediate retaliation why cant we start on IWT ?
Its as simple as opening up a levee & making the water flow out into a canal all under the glare of the camera's of National media.

Isnt IWT a treaty Chacha foisted on Indians as per wishes of his anglosaxon masters to make us give away 80% of Indus water to an enemy state with no rhyme or reason ?
Is the IWT guaranteed by massa or the anglosaxon global order headed by it & for this reason it is shown a lot of unnecessary public deference by our past govts as if its some article of faith ?

There is no isolating of pak, even a chaddi wearing nanha on brf knows that 3.5 supporters will always come for the aid of their munna.
So the phrase "India should act in such a way so as not to internationalize Kashmir" repeatedly delivered by usual minions translates to, "Dont cross our redlines - we will bring Kashmir to the front burner" messaging by Massa.

I think its time for NaMo to test the response both on "internationalization of Kashmir" & IWT.
Atleast Indians will get to witness the doodh ka doodh & pani ka pani of our international "friends & strategic partners"

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby asinh » 19 Sep 2016 17:22

If the corp commanders have some authority to act on their own why are we not seeing anything?

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Singha » 19 Sep 2016 17:38

one thing we should be aware of - high quality but cheap and small cheen drones have proliferated to jihadis...the downlink is even to a smartphone or tablet. its WIDELY being used in syria by all parties.

so just a tall wall or line of trees is no guarantor of privacy and security.

prelude to a infiltration or earlier recce by local agents, they would likely know our camps and movements in detail far better than periodic satellite photos using a drone quietly hovering in the trees.

we need the kind of omni directional jammers than can disrupt the control signals and video feeds for each vital installation in this new drone era.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2016 17:53

India's only retaliatory option is overt, to shame the pak fauj.
This can't be done unless diplomacy has created space for it.

What do jingos want, dismiss 56" and bring madam, anthony, buddhu into power?

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby rohitvats » 19 Sep 2016 17:54

Posting here for maximum visibility:

9.(C) Raghavan reported that there has been good progress on
the Sir Creek dispute, but that now "the mood in Pakistan is
too self-absorbed to work on it." On Siachen, he reported
that the Indian Army has drawn a line with its political
leadership. It has told the GOI that withdrawal was
tantamount to ceding the area to Pakistan due to the
difficulty of retaking it should Pakistan occupy it.
Instead, the GOI is attempting to "soften" the issue by
proposing joint military projects such as environmental clean
up or trekking. There has been no Pakistani response to
these suggestions, he noted.


Wikileaks Cable: https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08NEWDELHI2401_a.html

Please do read the cable. Excellent insight into how India deals with Pakistan. Or, has been dealing with Pakistan over last 10 years (2004-2014). Ramana, Shiv, you'll love this.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Sep 2016 18:07

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 858_1.html

This can be a small but significant start. Many small steps of economic nature, sports like banning their Cricket team by arm twisting ICC, kicking out all their movie men and women from Bhaiwood etc can be done.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby shiv » 19 Sep 2016 18:07

Last night I went to bed with a heavy heart, but with hope. I have posted rants time and again over the years - having been on BRF since before Kargil. I was hoping when I went to bed that I would wake up to news of multiple IAF strikes on Paki targets but that was not to be.

However I must point out something that CFair wrote and Doval's advice that overreaction to an incident will not help
Image

However here is what I feel
Indians have done introspection and soul searching for long enough. Need to do some killing so we can introspect better after that

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby srikven » 19 Sep 2016 18:21

As war / military action is not the option as per some wise people and considering the fact that we need to be part of NSG, Wassenaar arrangement, The Australia group, NATO, Warsaw pact, notsocommonwealth, Samsclub etc etc, We need to act diplomatically onlee.

Now that KadiNinda is passe, some of the other new resolutions from the High level meeting today.

- The Samjauta express from today will honk continuously while it enters pakistan

- The Muzzaffarabad bus from Srinagar will be painted black

- The Indian maid and gardener who are working for Abdul Basit will strike work until Pakistan brings the perpetrators to book

- We will not sell vegetables anymore to Paki diplomatic staff. If they want sabjis let them import. Huh..

- India will print the dossiers only in black and white.No more color printing. We will also not hand deliver anymore . It will be only by snail mail without stamp. Pakistanis will have to pay for the postal chanrges before they collect

- Our leaders will not utter the word Pakistan when they speak in the UN assembly. It will be beeped

- India will stop working on all Indus basin irrigation projects on this side of the fence as a mark of protest

- After todays "high" level meeting, We will have a " Higher" level meeting and a "Highest" level meeting. If need be we are even ready to have a "most highest" level meeting where all of us will sit quiet with constipated faces with INvincible pigeon waving his hands animatedly

- We will charge the paki DGMO for the hotline telephone charges. This will be cold line henceforth and will be on a collect call mode. No more freebees to him. What does he think of himself ?

- We will send a delegation of Ministers, MoS, Secretaries, Under secys, upper secys, section officers, LDCs and UDCs to take stock of our self respect .. whatever is left of it

- We will also send a all party committee to the Pakistan border @ attari. However we are making it clear that they are going on a personal capacity onlee. If atari door does not open like what happened to them @ Geelanis place , then we are not responsible

- An Internationally acclaimed Journalist who has been an interlocutor in the past will be sent to Pakistan for understanding the plan for the next set of attacks. This is also to find out how many of the JeM and LeT blokes have headmasters as their father

- ModiJi will not give presents next time when he visits Lahore for Sharifs birthday

- Arnab will increase the frequency of beating up retired Paki Jernails. It will be thrice a day going forward. They will learn their lesson. ( This is the most kinetic of the approaches )
------------

Sorry Bhailog. Iam just frustrated like all of you. Not trying to be funny. Iam still hoping and praying that one day I would wake up to a news that we have kicked some ass in retaliation


Mods. Please delete this post if you feel its insensitive

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Sep 2016 18:28

It is not insensitive. But posted from your heart and I agree with the basic idea of it.

But killing in retaliation is only one steps available with us. IA or/and IAF should be allowed the freedom to do it as per their wisdom. Mango men like myself do know have any wisdom to advise our forces. They shall be given freedom. Remember how we have responded to border firing during the 2014-15 period. Lot of greens got halaled.

Other steps economic and political steps are also to be undertaken in a systematic manner.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Karthik S » 19 Sep 2016 18:37

Gagan wrote:India's only retaliatory option is overt, to shame the pak fauj.
This can't be done unless diplomacy has created space for it.

What do jingos want, dismiss 56" and bring madam, anthony, buddhu into power?


What difference will voting for them make for average Indians from present condition?

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby srikven » 19 Sep 2016 18:43

Agree Yagnasri Ji

When 2001 happened, I thought there was some action immediately ( Not sure how soon ) we recalled our envoy, overflights were banned, visas stopped, Paki envoy was declared persona non-grata etc before Op Parakram was ordered. Am hoping that similar suite actions will follow now asap

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Sep 2016 18:47

srikven wrote:Agree Yagnasri Ji

When 2001 happened, I thought there was some action immediately ( Not sure how soon ) we recalled our envoy, overflights were banned, visas stopped, Paki envoy was declared persona non-grata etc before Op Parakram was ordered. Am hoping that similar suite actions will follow now asap


Then Godhra happenned, Rather than public statements like post Dec 2001, I would prefer Govt is ridiculed and Pakis are caught with thier pants down with significant casualties and we ask Pakis for Dosas and Evidence.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby prahaar » 19 Sep 2016 19:11

Karthikji, if by average Indians if you refer to middle class or BRF junta, then it will make no difference. But if you mean people in far off villages and those just coming out of poverty, it makes a huge difference. Imaging the difference between never having a toilet in school versus having one. Or never having bijli versus having a light bulb + TV.

I agree there are a lot of unmet expectations but this government has been significantly more accountable in delivering basic services to common people. I strongly suspect that BJP might lose a section of middle class vote because of their pro-poor policies. But if Modi shows decisiveness within 2016, the party can face the electorate with an erect spine.

The question is at what cost. We may be simplifying the problem by just thinking it is business interests stopping military action. PM also needs to be ready to explain the death of potentially more if hostilities increase.

I am not suggesting Bhim-Bakasur compromise, which we have been enduring since ages.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby saurav_jha » 19 Sep 2016 19:12

One option in long term could be ratcheting up Pushtun sentiments against Punjabis. Recent suicide attacks in tribal regions were not allowed to be reported. Additionally, Shias are in very good numbers in those regions and have been viciously targeted by good as well as bad talibans. This angle can also be exploited.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby prahaar » 19 Sep 2016 19:13

Aditya_V wrote:
srikven wrote:Agree Yagnasri Ji

When 2001 happened, I thought there was some action immediately ( Not sure how soon ) we recalled our envoy, overflights were banned, visas stopped, Paki envoy was declared persona non-grata etc before Op Parakram was ordered. Am hoping that similar suite actions will follow now asap


Then Godhra happenned, Rather than public statements like post Dec 2001, I would prefer Govt is ridiculed and Pakis are caught with thier pants down with significant casualties and we ask Pakis for Dosas and Evidence.


+101. Not statements but actions. Andhra mirchi should be felt not heard by the intended recipients.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2016 19:25

If this present GoI does or does not respond, I will understand that they have really considered ALL options.
Not like the previous political party in power, where their actions were very suspect.

If this GoI pursues a certain course of action now, it will really be well considered.
I don't know if all the pieces are ready on the geopolitical board.

The goal is to really really give peace a chance...

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2016 19:36

My thing is that only an aar paar ki ladai will solve this menace.
One military action right now will only kill a lot of pakistani soldiers on the border, while the real haramzadas in pindi will go scot free.

To solve pakistan, there will be only one war, the elements to break them up have to be put in place. It was only Aug 15 when the PM put certain things in action.
I wonder if these pieces are ready and in place yet.

There has to be a situation where all 3 provinces have to simultaneously implode and secede, along with military intervention by india. If GoI thinks the pieces are ready, then this is the time to go in all guns blazing.
Otherwise, the heat will have to be upped, and the pot has to be made to boil over sooner. I think this latter will more likely happen.

And please stop blaming Nawaz Sharif, he may be enjoying this situation and deriving vicarious pleasure, but he is probably more worried about his businesses right now. The civilians in Pakistan can be quite 'useful' when the time comes.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Karan M » 19 Sep 2016 19:42

rohit, can you post the entire excerpt. link wont open..

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby SBajwa » 19 Sep 2016 19:52

At least announce that the bodies of all killed terrorists and Pakistani soldiers from now on will be kept in pork fat for 1 hour and then set to fire with little bit of petrol in a mass grave.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby ldev » 19 Sep 2016 20:01

Singha wrote:one thing we should be aware of - high quality but cheap and small cheen drones have proliferated to jihadis...the downlink is even to a smartphone or tablet. its WIDELY being used in syria by all parties.

so just a tall wall or line of trees is no guarantor of privacy and security.

prelude to a infiltration or earlier recce by local agents, they would likely know our camps and movements in detail far better than periodic satellite photos using a drone quietly hovering in the trees.

we need the kind of omni directional jammers than can disrupt the control signals and video feeds for each vital installation in this new drone era.


Absolutely, here is one such available drone for $ 700, 2 km range, 400 feet high ceiling with a live camera feed. Many such models available at a retail level with varying price/performance/camera variables. Who knows how many have been smuggled across the LOC into India and used by local agents to get the layout of IA camps? Would the IA camps even know that they under drone surveillance from such small platforms making virtually no noise? And it is surprisingly good for $ 700.

Last edited by ldev on 19 Sep 2016 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby deejay » 19 Sep 2016 20:03

Karan M wrote:rohit, can you post the entire excerpt. link wont open..



GOI OFFICIALS TELL AMBASSADOR PATTERSON POLITICAL PROGRESS CONTINGENT ON CT PROGRESS
Date:2008 September 6, 05:37 (Saturday) Canonical ID:08NEWDELHI2401_a
Original Classification:CONFIDENTIAL Current Classification:CONFIDENTIAL
Handling Restrictions-- Not Assigned --
Character Count:10217
Executive Order:-- Not Assigned -- Locator:TEXT ONLINE
TAGS:IN - India | PGOV - Political Affairs--Government; Internal Governmental Affairs | PINR - Political Affairs--Intelligence | PK - Pakistan | PREL - Political Affairs--External Political Relations Concepts:-- Not Assigned --
Enclosure:-- Not Assigned -- Type:TE - Telegram (cable)
Office Origin:-- N/A or Blank --
Office Action:-- N/A or Blank -- Archive Status:-- Not Assigned --
From:India New Delhi Markings:-- Not Assigned --
To:Central Intelligence Agency | China Beijing | Director of National Intelligence | Japan Tokyo | Joint Chiefs of Staff | National Security Council | Russia Moscow | Secretary of Defense | Secretary of State | South Korea Seoul | South and Central Asia Collective | United Kingdom London | United Nations (Geneva) | United Nations (New York) | United States Central Command | United States Pacific Command


1. (C) SUMMARY: Deputy National Security Advisor Leela
Ponappa and Joint Secretary (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran)
T.C.A. Raghavan, in separate meetings with visiting
Ambassador Patterson, indicated that the GOI is seized from
top to bottom with the unrest in Jammu and Kashmir, but is
confident that it has the structures in place to address the
situation. The Pakistani infrastructure facilitating
infiltration and terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir remains
intact. Extremist groups active in Jammu and Kashmir are
becoming indistinguishable from those operating in the
northwest of Pakistan and pose a regional threat. The GOI is
ready to continue dialogue with the GOP but the Kabul embassy
bombing and Pakistan's support for cross border terrorism is
making it difficult for India to sustain its commitment to
normalization of relations. In private meetings, the GOP has
acknowledged the gravity of the Kabul attack and promised a
report. The political drama in Pakistan is drawing attention
from the Line of Control. Raghavan and Ponappa said that
people-to-people contact between the countries is thriving
but there are zero military-to-military exchanges. Raghavan
reported little progress on the Siachen dispute. END SUMMARY.


India ready to talk, but Pakistan must address terrorism
-----------------------
2.(C) In visiting Ambassador Anne Patterson's separate August
27th meetings with GOI Deputy National Security Advisor Leela
Ponappa and Joint Secretary (Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran)
T.C.A. Raghavan, both interlocutors expressed the GOI's
willingness to work with the new GOP. Ponappa said that
"anything positive from them would be well received." Asked
about President Musharraf's exit, Ponappa replied, "We deal
with whomever is there. We've seen this before, it's a
pattern, you can almost graph it," but pointed out that
Pakistanis can take justifiable pride that this change of
power took place through the constitutional process.
Raghavan said of Musharraf, "His time had run out. He could
never consistently follow a policy to make an impact
domestically." Raghavan stated that the 4th round of
Composite Dialogue "left a good feeling" which led to the
positive beginning to the 5th round. In his view, there
remains a strong consensus in both countries to normalize
relations. He reported that Foreign Secretary Menon
communicated to Foreign Minister Qureshi that the Kabul blast
and spikes in incidents along the LOC will have to be
addressed, and got a positive response. Asked for more
detail about PM Singh's meeting with PM Gilani in Colombo on
August 2, Raghavan replied that there is political consensus
on normalization but PM Singh, while personally committed,
can not sustain normalization in the face of terror attacks.

Kabul embassy bombing "soured everybody on Pakistan"
----------------------
3.(C) Raghavan appreciated prior information from the USG and
the Afghan government on the specific threat to its Embassy
in Kabul. He told Ambassador Patterson that if it were not
for these tips, the barriers at the Indian Embassy in Kabul
would not have been constructed before the attack and
casualties would have been far worse. He said, "The Kabul
attack soured everyone on Pakistan." He reported that the
last round of the Composite Dialogue was dominated by
discussion of terrorism and that the GOI made it clear that
such violence is unacceptable and will damage Indo-Pak
relations. On GOP complicity in the Kabul attack, he said,
"we can't tell at what level decisions are happening, but our
own sense is something like this wouldn't happen on its own."
He confirmed that it appears the Haqqani network implemented
the attack. He said in private meetings Pakistan accepts the
gravity of the bombing. Raghavan reported that Gilani did
promise PM Singh a report on the Kabul attack. He added that
the Composite Dialogue was fruitful, but that "There is time
for that. Right now, we must see what happens on the

NEW DELHI 00002401 002 OF 003


investigation."


DGOI siezed with Jammu and Kashmir unrest
-----------------------
4.(C) Queried on Jammu and Kashmir, Ponappa divided the
situation into two parts: on the domestic side, she told
Ambassador Patterson emphatically that "the government is
seized with the issue from top to bottom," and that the GOI
"has in place the structures to deal with it." She said, "We
have managed to disaggregate the problem and we will use soft
power and hard power to solve it." The Ambassador asked
Ponappa if elections were likely to be postponed due to the
violence in Jammu and Kashmir, to which she replied that she
was not sure.

The external component in Jammu and Kashmir
-------------------------
5.(C) On the external side of the Jammu and Kashmir issue,
Ponappa said that one "can't distinguish between Jammu and
Kashmir and northwest Pakistan as far as the terrorists are
concerned." She emphasized that the extremist groups
infiltrating Kashmir are flexible, mobile, and regional. They
are a threat to the whole region, including the U.S. mission
in Afghanistan. She speculated that Jamaatul Daawa (JuD) may
be "the center of it all, spawning more groups." She pointed
out that Musharraf, though he decreased infiltration across
the frontier, did not dismantle the infrastructure that
facilitated it. She said that the terrorist infrastructure
appears stronger than before, and must be taken apart.
Raghavan expressed concern about the lack of control in
Pakistan's northwest areas. He argued that the Inter-Services
Intelligence (ISI) had over the decades become used to the
old formula of cutting deals in the Federally Administered
Tribal Areas (FATA) whenever trouble brewed there. It was a
tried and tested formula. The problem, in his view, is that
the people the ISI now cuts deals with are not the same
people the ISI is used to. The leadership in the FATA has
changed, and the old formula no longer works. Raghavan added
that the recent increase in suicide bombings gives a clear
signal to the Pakistani government that it can not relent on
its efforts now.

Pakistan's political drama eclipses distressing Line of
Control issues
------------------------
6.(C) Raghavan said infiltration this year was higher than it
has been for years. He believes political drama within
Pakistan is eclipsing the deteriorating frontier situation.
Raghavan indicated that the GOI sees the Pakistani military
stopping infiltration in some areas at certain times while
allowing some people to cross over at other times. He
believed that the military is picking and choosing between
Jihadi groups. The same groups are showing up on the
Pakistan-Afghanistan border, he said. Raghavan called for UN
action to list JuD as a terrorist organization. He added
that reports of Islamist plots against the Beijing Olympics
may make China more willing to support such measures.

Pakistan's political drama - anything is possible
--------------------------
7.(C) Ponappa asked Ambassador Patterson about the
possibility of the coalition government making a comeback.
They agreed that anything seems possible at this point,
including a PML presidential candidate, or Nawaz's candidacy.
Raghavan called the political line-up in Pakistan "a menu of
bad options." "There are a lot of good guys, but what are
the political options?" he asked. He said that there is not
enough focus in Pakistan on getting policy right. Asked how
to fix that, especially in light of presidential campaigns in
Pakistan, Raghavan replied that "Pakistan must help itself.
Everything we say is held in suspicion." Raghavan told
Ambassador Patterson that the GOI made a specific policy
decision to "keep quiet on Pakistan" after May 2007, when "we

NEW DELHI 00002401 003 OF 003


realized no political progress was to be made" through
exchanging statements.


Contact and exchange between India and Pakistan
----------------------------
8.(C) Ambassador Patterson asked about parliamentary
exchanges between India and Pakistan, to which Ponappa
replied "India-Pakistan relations are not as one-dimensional
as Bollywood makes them look," saying that there is a 'reat
deal of contact and people-to-people exchange. She added
that she believes there is a fair amount of informal contact
between Members of Parliament (MPs). She noted that a South
Asia Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) provision
allows MPs from member countries to travel visa-free
throughout the region. Raghavan lamented that there is
currently no military contact between India and Pakistan,
though India has suggested "soft" steps like music or sports
exchanges but has always been turned down. Pakistan even
declined India's invitation to the world military games, he
added. Raghavan noted that the Institute of Strategic
Studies in Islamabad and the Institute of Defense Studies in
India have signed an MOU, which may encourage peripheral
contact between the two defense establishments.

Sir Creek and Siachen disputes
-----------------------------
9.(C) Raghavan reported that there has been good progress on
the Sir Creek dispute, but that now "the mood in Pakistan is
too self-absorbed to work on it." On Siachen, he reported
that the Indian Army has drawn a line with its political
leadership. It has told the GOI that withdrawal was
tantamount to ceding the area to Pakistan due to the
difficulty of retaking it should Pakistan occupy it.
Instead, the GOI is attempting to "soften" the issue by
proposing joint military projects such as environmental clean
up or trekking. There has been no Pakistani response to
these suggestions, he noted.

10.(U) Ambassador Patterson has cleared this cable.

MULFORD

shiv
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby shiv » 19 Sep 2016 20:15

Of all channels - CNN IBN or whatever it is called now which I never watch suddenly caught my attention while switching channels yesterday. A lady (reporter) made some of the most sensible points I have ever heard on Indian TV.

About "intelligence leaks" of movement she pointed out how social media are being used effectively by Pakis. Simply get friendly with people and ask innocuous questions - "So what time are you off duty" "When will you be moving?. Hope to catch you after you settle down" etc.

Putting an army of people on social media combined with the explosion of smartphones and internet in india and sites offering pjorn and free music it is possible to filter out young men who are in the border areas, figure out innocuously that they are in the armed forces and innocently wring information out of them. Will cross post in the psy-ops thread also

Sicanta
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Sicanta » 19 Sep 2016 21:04

pankajs wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/modi-s-foreign-policy-successful-except-over-pakistan-pew-survey/story-eB2npJvUk4aHQuRyoKbCSI.html
Modi’s foreign policy successful, except over Pakistan: Pew survey
Indians revealed an overwhelmingly positive and confident view of their place in the world and Modi’s foreign policy received a general thumbs-up in the survey.

One stark negative: Strong disapproval of Modi’s handling of Pakistan. Only 22% of Indians polled approved of his policy, a view likely exacerbated by incidents such as the terror strike on Pathankot airbase that was blamed on Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed.

vinod
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby vinod » 19 Sep 2016 21:26

SBajwa wrote:At least announce that the bodies of all killed terrorists and Pakistani soldiers from now on will be kept in pork fat for 1 hour and then set to fire with little bit of petrol in a mass grave.


There is a fundamental disconnect on what motivates these terrorists in reality and the rhetoric of politicians, various analysts etc.
The terrorists are motivated with the promise of heaven. Its as simple as that.. nothing more. Kasab said it on the camera from his hospital bed. Its not love of Pakistan but love for 72 houris and janat. Recently, there was video of a Syrian commander giving a pep talk around the same.

So, solution to the terrorist problem is simple, remove this possibility of journey to heaven and you will have no terrorists willing to die for Pakistan.

First, declare that terror and terrorists have no religion and hence will be treated as such.
Second, any ids recovered should not be made public and say they found no ids and we don't know nationality and hence will be treated as such. They will be photographed, finger printed and dna collected, but for first week we don't know the id and hence will continue efforts to find out.
Third, do the post-mortem etc and wait for 2 days of relatives to identify the body, if any one comes out. This applies to only Indian origin terrorists.
Fourth, hand over the body to a so-called "private" organisation to dispose the body as they like. Absolving the govt of the responsibility surrounding any future controversies.
Fifth, the so-called organisation should ensure that body is disposed of such that they never reach the heaven. They should be burnt, since there should be no trace of the terrorists remaining.
Sixth, after few days, at appropriate time, the ids should be revealed.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Gagan » 19 Sep 2016 21:56

You do all that and some mulla in Pakistan will say, that jeehardis meet their 72 the moment Half-is-suar reads inna illahi rajiun for them.

Have to follow the study that the Israelis are doing currently. They are draping dead palestinian terrorists bodies in pig fat. Have to see if that is going to result in a dip in numbers wanting to do 72 onlee

These terror commanders are spineless, shameless twits. They are asking a human being to murder and be murdered. That is really the crassest of crassest haramigiri! I don't think pig fat or any ritual after death is going to stop them inventing new stories on how great djannat is. These guys will always come up with some alternate theory to nix it all.

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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

Postby Aditya G » 19 Sep 2016 22:18

Major Gaurav arya (retd):



RETRIBUTION

Yesterday, seventeen of my brothers were martyred in a terror attack in Uri Sector. Seventeen homes were shattered. Children were orphaned. Their fathers will come home in a coffin, wrapped in the tri-color. Seventeen homes will not celebrate Diwali this year.

Yes, we will grieve for our dead. We will take care of their families, for that is our way of life. But we will save our tears for later. Today, we will sit and plan retribution.

I have had enough of you peaceniks; enough of you people lighting candles at Wagah. The day you lose a brother, you will know my pain. I have lost 17 brothers. You cannot even imagine the extent of my pain and anger.

I write this to those who are in power today, those who decide what the Indian Army should or should not do.

We are constantly attacked – 1947, 1965, Kargil, 26/11, Parliament attacks, Pathankot terror attack and now in Uri. And yet, we are not permitted to hit back. This is humiliating and it shatters our morale.

We are soldiers. We kill and we die. That is our profession. But when we die, we die with honor. We die on our feet; we don’t live on our knees. I know, because it is written on the walls of the Officers Training Academy.

A soldier can bear pain, loss and sorrow with a shrug. But you are asking us to bear humiliation. This will break our spirit. Pakistani blood must flow. And it must flow like the blood on the streets of Dhaka on Eid.

This is not about strategic gain or that cat and mouse game that Pakistan thinks it is so adept at playing. This is about the soldier’s honor. Our funeral pyres burn as far as the eye can see. Our blood has colored this earth red. Today we ask this nation to restore the rights of the soldier.

It is our right to retaliate at a time and place of our choosing. It is our right to use disproportionate force. It is our right to kill the enemy.

You, our political masters, must realize that you are sitting on a time bomb. Mark my words very carefully. There will be immense pressure on the Commanding Officers of the units that were attacked. The pressure will be from the troops they command. The concept of “face” and honor is everything in the Indian Army. Thousands of armed men will be baying for blood. And they will not stop till their honor has been redeemed.

It could take a very small spark, a comment a month down the line when another unit’s soldier could say to a soldier of the unit that has suffered casualties, “They killed your brothers and you did nothing”. You will then have local commanders taking local decisions. A company commander may just decide that since the LoC is not clearly demarcated, he got lost and entered Pakistan “by mistake”. And then there will be blood. It has been done before. Those from the Naga Regiment will know what I am talking about; the Nagas know a thing or two about vengeance. If you kill one of theirs, they don’t wait for instructions from New Delhi.

Why was such a location chosen, which was astride a river and on the highway connecting Kashmir to Muzzafarabad? Why was it not a walled compound? There are many such questions that I have, but will not ask them on this forum. But this much I will say; someone has to be held accountable for the 17 precious lives lost.

We have several military options that can be used against Pakistan, and one of these must be used in the next 72 hours or before. In none of these actions is there a threat of nuclear response from Pakistan.

Option One will be to go in for massive artillery bombardment across the line of control using Multi Barrel Rocket Launchers (MBRL Pinaka), medium artillery and other guns. This will degrade and denude Pakistan’s military infrastructure and cause heavy loss of lives. Pakistan Army’s artillery is no match for our own and has no credible response to our bombardment. CB (counter bombardment) measures and capabilities of the Pakistan Army are well documented. However, loss of lives on our side cannot be ruled out.

Option Two could be to launch a Special Forces raid across the LoC. A team of one of the Para SF units may be tasked to go across the border for a HVT (high value target). This will include assassination of enemy commanders, destroying infrastructure and killing Pakistan Army personnel. Infiltration will not be difficult but exfiltration may be very complicated. We risk loss of lives.

Option Three may be a swift and devastating air attack on Pakistan Army infrastructure, deeper inside Pakistan. HQ 1 Corps in Mangla (Gilgit Baltistan) will be an excellent target. In this option, we will have to contend with Pakistani Air Defence, and loss of our pilot’s lives and a few aircraft.

Any option we choose, we stand to lose lives. But there is no going back now. We must break Pakistan’s spine. The honor of our country is at stake.

And the brave seventeen will not accept peace without honor.

Major Gaurav Arya (Veteran)

#IndianArmy #adgpi #UriAttack #IndiaWithForces


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