India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13876
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby UlanBatori » 18 Jan 2016 15:11

So my point is exactly that. The "evidence-sharing" and "dossier-giving" should come ****AFTER*** that basic step. The IA aphsar is too kind. I would make it a point to hit the officers' mess in the nearest Paki post/base 5 times in a day at appropriate times. Also find out from RAA the address of any buildings / real property owned by senior PA aphsars (which is most of TSP) and accidentally hit those too. Totally "disproportionate" as in 100 Pakis killed for every Indian hurt in a terrorist attack.

Also, hit NEIGHBORS of J-e-M, L-E-T etc headquarters - i.e., make them undesirable as neighbors.

THEN... give the evidence for the Paki polis to go arrest those "responsible".
Pathankot was a glaring example of an opportunity (lost?). The whole world applauded when NaMo visited Lahore. A strong jhapad would have been understood and applauded by all. The delay is unconscionable.

The GOI's logic of pursuing all legally peaceful avenues BEFORE (i.e., never) resorting to military option, is obviously just leading to more and more murders of Indians, with no end in sight. It will not work, for the reasons I posted above: The Pakis will always plead that the evidence is not sufficient to stand up in (Paki) courts.

A good jhapad policy will GIVE the pakis some motivation to go after the terrorists. Like if the Judge's makaan is now a parking lot.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2016 15:23

Agree.. right now the IA stocks, serviceability across all 3 services are being fixed.. once that happens (window of 2018-19), options open up .. i suspect TSP knows this, hence their desire to up the ante before we can fix things in place.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1160
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby rkhanna » 18 Jan 2016 16:02

IMO the first step to any retaliation would be the Re-instate the Technical Services Division and then reform CIT-X/J (via SG) and let them loose over a 12-24 month period. Build Intelligence, Build Assets - when the Jihadis are feeling the most secure- strike then

member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby member_20292 » 18 Jan 2016 16:10

Spoke to a chaiwallah over the weekend. Did not seem to be too perturbed by Pathankot. Said that India has significant amount of needling capacity and does do so , time to time.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2016 16:16

rkhanna wrote:IMO the first step to any retaliation would be the Re-instate the Technical Services Division and then reform CIT-X/J (via SG) and let them loose over a 12-24 month period. Build Intelligence, Build Assets - when the Jihadis are feeling the most secure- strike then


+100

Mahadevbhu wrote:Spoke to a chaiwallah over the weekend. Did not seem to be too perturbed by Pathankot. Said that India has significant amount of needling capacity and does do so , time to time.


Public perception and morale need to be taken into account. Landing a few blows in the middle of the night when nobody is watching does little for deterrence.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3415
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Aditya G » 18 Jan 2016 16:51

mahadevbhu wrote:Spoke to a chaiwallah over the weekend. Did not seem to be too perturbed by Pathankot. Said that India has significant amount of needling capacity and does do so , time to time.


Then why did those needle options come up to MMS post 26/11? Taking Sandeep U's reporting at face value.

In another thread I posted some info about Ayni thread and how we bought Akbars for Afghan air force. In a way this is also needling - but there is no tangible connection to terror incident X.

We want to take a tangible retaliation for any terror strike. The efficacy of that action is a separate debate. Public retaliation creates deterrence in the enemy's mind as well as well the larger public. Say I fire 155 mm shells into PoK villages every time a terrorist strikes, the Paki public may question the PA tactics. But if there is no retaliation perceived, then no questions will be asked in Pakistan.

During peak of Somali Piracy, the Russians blew up a pirate mothership with pirates in it and put up the video on Youtube. Nobody messed with Russian ships after that.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9697
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Jan 2016 17:00

I agree that there is shall be "disproportionate" and public response. Then and then only Pakis will learn. The border firing response was quite good and lot of people in their side died. Same needed to be repeated.

May be few car bombs killing top paki generals or top ISI fellows and "irresponsible" statements from people like Subbu or Swamy Aditya Nath that we have done the same which GOI can simply deny is the way to go.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 17:05

^^^

I'm not sure I agree that we do 'needling' from time to time. I have posted a few instances on before where we have taken action but that is exclusively local commanders (Div, bde, bn level) taking initiative to retaliate to localized firing by Paki troops. I know of a couple of raids by 3 Para also which I haven't mentioned here but they were again very local. Quite rough to the Paki unit that faced them but very local and completely on army initiative.

I have not come across a single instance of targeting a terrorist head quarter or launching a proper attack as a response to a terrorist attack with permission from South Block, PMO, NSA etc. I do know of one case when about 50% preparations were made (intelligence available, op plan ready, units had been detailed) but before the rehearsals started orders were received to cancel. This was when Gen Parnaik was GOC n C Northern Command.

I also asked an ex GOC n C Southern Command whether the news of the support given by 11 Div (Gandhinagar) to RAW ops in Karachi and Balochistan were true. This offr had commanded 11 Div and also 11 Corps in Jallandhar. He categorically said no. And said that we have no ops in the area or anywhere for that matter.

My other chaiwala/rum wala sources say the same thing. Of course if a really deep op has been launched by int agencies then we may not have heard. But I doubt it.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jan 2016 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1160
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby rkhanna » 18 Jan 2016 17:06

Then why did those needle options come up to MMS post 26/11? Taking Sandeep U's reporting at face value


If i read the tea Leaves correctly TSD was very active post 26/11. The needling was being done. Just not in public Fora. Shut down of TSD has lead to direct increase in activity from across the border in an extremely short period of time. Speaks volumes of how effective the TSD was.

Also TSD did its thing across various facets of the WOT. Direct Action, Misinformation/Propaganda, Political maneuvering, etc. It was a truely Asymmetrical Warfare Capability that we now sorely miss.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 17:08

I disagree, I know a little bit about what TSD did. It was ALL ON OUR OWN TERRITORY. They did a very good job but nothing in POK.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 17:10

And forget POK, we have to hit them in Punjab. Thats where it hurts. Or other places....The Pak army tie suit jihadi general's kids kids study in the US and UK.....
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jan 2016 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1160
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby rkhanna » 18 Jan 2016 17:12

^^
I disagree, I know a little bit about what TSD did. It was ALL ON OUR OWN TERRITORY. They did a very good job but nothing in POK


Not what I have heard. But no need to discuss this here. If we ever cross paths in a BR meet we can compare notes over a few beers :)

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 17:14

Done !

member_20292
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2059
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby member_20292 » 18 Jan 2016 17:35

balochistan is going to go.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 17:40

when ?

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13876
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby UlanBatori » 18 Jan 2016 18:09

So, to reiterate:

The purpose of my upper post was to try reasoning out whether Pakistan ***COULD*** "reasonably, practically" act at the government level to stamp out terrorism. This is the question and expectation of the UN, foreign governments, US State Dept, Track Two candlewallahs, Reasonable People, Bijnej-IT-billionaires etc.

Unless someone can rebut my contentions there, I hold that it is USELESS to expect any action, and IMPOSSIBLE that peace will result. Even if the Pak govt takes some token steps such as "protective custody" (presumably to escape the RAA execution squad) and some "arrests", they will lead nowhere. They ***CANNOT*** lead anywhere.

Did they hang anyone for murdering Daniel Pearl? Why do you think they will hang anyone for murdering the innocent tax-driver in Punjab?

So I say that this proves the fallacy in the "Provide Evidence, Let the Law Take Its Course and **IF NOT, hain, we will show BEFITTING REPLY** course of inaction.

Sadly, or otherwise, we must then come to the logical, inescapable conclusion: Adopt the policy:

Give Peace A Chance. Destroy the Pakistani Army of Genocidal Goat-Buggers


I hope some actual decision-makers see this, and accept that my way is the only way to true Peace. I am the only truly non-violent, peace-loving, law-respecting person here.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2016 18:11

you are right.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3415
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Aditya G » 18 Jan 2016 18:31

Akshay Kapoor wrote:... I know of a couple of raids by 3 Para also which I haven't mentioned here but they were again very local. Quite rough to the Paki unit that faced them but very local and completely on army initiative.

I have not come across a single instance of targeting a terrorist head quarter or launching a proper attack as a response to a terrorist attack with permission from South Block, PMO, NSA etc.......


Thanks for this post.

If only our politicos-babus and link in with the Army and give official blessing to what the Army is going to do in any case. Everything else remains same. Nothing changes except we leave a hand written note "Revenge for Pathankot"

This is the low hanging 'revenge fruit' which we can grow in back yard and serve up cheap. 8)

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2016 18:36

>>3 Para raids

Any details?

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 18:57

Sensitive. Did quite a few things to Pakis. Wont like to mention here in case some babu/DDM sees and makes things difficult for the unit. But not strategic targets. Shallow across the LOC types. Was a local response.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jan 2016 19:15, edited 2 times in total.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 18:58

Aditya, actually we have even left notes on occasions. But not linking it to big attacks.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 18 Jan 2016 19:02

Net net, needling is not good enough. We need to amputate/castrate the tie/suit jihadis Gens. And make its sure its seen by everybody.

What the army has been doing off and on , on local initiative is not enough and gets drowned in the LOC cross fire. It is seen as a intermittent local response that will change once the 'aggressive commander or unit is posted out'. Its never seen as a 'befitting reply' (to quote Rajnath Singh) to a terrorist attack. And that's because it isn't ! Local commander is communicating with his counterpart in the language he understands. If communication is effective his tenure is peaceful :-)

As a first step we can do right away is to scale up these actions in terms of frequency, frontage and lethality. And link it to Pathankot etc. We should also start shelling across the IB. So at army level we can escalate as a policy and sustain it for some time.

But deep targeted attacks, supporting Balochis in a big way, must be done as the core focus. That will have the best results.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Karan M » 18 Jan 2016 20:04

Meanwhile our Prince speaks,

The Indian Express @IndianExpress
India's power has never been its military, it's come from the power of its ideas: Rahul Gandhi during interaction with Mumbai students

yantra
BRFite
Posts: 185
Joined: 28 Jul 2010 03:46

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby yantra » 18 Jan 2016 22:17

^^ Karan - remember a recent Whatsapp joke and the tagline - "Jaha Soch..."

Sorry, OT. But could not stop.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13876
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Jan 2016 03:14

2 paraphrase shivji:

Jo Dilli mein gandoo woh Mumbai mein bhi gandoo

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1001
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby nits » 19 Jan 2016 10:13

Cross Posting from Intelligence thread...




Good Read... i hope a lot has changed by now from below. Surprised to read Navy dont have any cold start type doctrine... or some quick action strategy to punish Pak

Image

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2016 16:08

^^^

So,

Option 1 - we destroyed our covert capability from Ik Gujral (Morarji also) onwards and now we say we have no covert capability
Options 2,3,4 - we are worried about collateral damage. What about our civilians in 26/11 and before and after. So Paki 'civilians' are more important than ours
Option 5 - We have a tiny defence (@ 2% of GDP when even Germany spends that much and US, Saudi, Paki and Chinese spend up to 3 times that) budget and refuse to build conventional capability and then say we have none. So lets do nothing.

The crux of the matter is that the politcal and bureacratic elite protect themselves by security cocoons and don't identify with the rest of India. I said this to a Cong MP once and she agreed. Ex Mayor of Bangalore too. So country be damned. We will do nothing.

Lage raho munna bhai

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3415
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Aditya G » 19 Jan 2016 16:50

Akshay Kapoor wrote:....
Options 2,3,4 - we are worried about collateral damage.
...ai


Bigger issue is the knowing the precise location.

On TV one panelist says that they also keep changing the location of the camps.

...aside from the HQ in muridke of purse

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2016 16:57

sure, but we could have hit a couple of known Div or Bde HQs. And Mudrike. It was'nt a quetsion of punishing the people directly responsible, it was question of imposing costs. That we have never done.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1625
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2016 16:58

My point is yeh sab analysis hawa mein hai. We lack the will to do it and will always find excuses not to respond rather than find reasons for responding. Its a mind set issue.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Karan M » 19 Jan 2016 19:37

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Option 5 - We have a tiny defence (@ 2% of GDP when even Germany spends that much and US, Saudi, Paki and Chinese spend up to 3 times that) budget and refuse to build conventional capability and then say we have none. So lets do nothing.


I think that's the part that will change now.. that what we have, becomes operational. There is a lot of focus on that in this GOI. Hopefully our ammo-service status becomes ok.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1748
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby sudeepj » 19 Jan 2016 21:36

If the graphic above is true, then retaliation should have hit some static physical asset that was well known. Retaliation in a language that the Pakistani establishment understood was a must. Even a conventional defensive battle is very difficult to wage (as opposed to being an aggressor), we are defensive even in these non-conventional fights! Its sickening.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3415
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Aditya G » 26 Jan 2016 22:20

By ex-co 21 sf, col subin balakrishnan

6 December 2014 at 13:06 ·

Yet another terrorist attack in Kashmir. Yet another series of body bags wrapped in the tricolor. Yet another set of widowed women and bewildered orphaned children looking on as the somber funeral, with full military honours begin. Yet another series of rhetoric from the political class, threatening response.

We tried talking to them, we tried extending our hand of friendship. We tried ignoring them, we tried engaging them. We tried enhancing people to people contact, we tried internationally isolating them. So, is there really a strategy that we havent quite tried ??

Yes, there is.

Lets get this straight - Eight times out of ten, an attack orchestrated by terrorists within Kashmir can be directly traced back to a set of Paki forward posts along the LC, which actively facilitated their infiltration. That is the linkage to the sudden spurts of ceasefire violations along the LC. That is the pattern. Every single time.

The day an attack takes place, those particular Paki posts through which the infiltration was allowed to happen should be pulverised; reduced to rubble. They should simply not allowed to remain on the face of the earth. That is the price that they should be made to pay. That message once consistently delivered shall be abundantly clear, in a language they understand. We have the resources, we have the wherewithal.
All that is missing is the political will to be steadfast in its application.
The nay-sayers shall warn of matters escalating rapidly out of control. We shall be reminded of the nuclear brinkmanship that this could result in. Well, if it does, so be it. Our response has to be calibrated to pulverising and reducing to dust that specific border post at the local level only. If the Pakis raise the stakes, I have no doubt we have the capacity to meet that too.

The fight has to be taken to the enemy camp. We cannot afford any more to let the Pakis play their dirty lil games in our front yard. All the other engagements and initiatives at the political, diplomatic and economic levels while happening concurrently, should be without prejudice to consistent application of this response mechanism.

This is something that has not been consistently tried. I believe it is time to decisively change the contours of this nonsense.


Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3974
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Jan 2016 00:39

^well well, Here is another setup in the ladder that reduces the chance of nuclear fallout...nice

member_23365
BRFite
Posts: 224
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby member_23365 » 27 Jan 2016 04:47

One thing comes to my mind is more and more defense personnel's should consider joining politics after their forces career. At least one ex defense member should be in cabinet who can understand the capabilities and resources required to give a solid jhapad.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3622
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby Kashi » 27 Jan 2016 05:11

atamjeetsingh wrote:One thing comes to my mind is more and more defense personnel's should consider joining politics after their forces career. At least one ex defense member should be in cabinet who can understand the capabilities and resources required to give a solid jhapad.


Gen V.K. Singh is there (even if as MoS with independent charge). Surely he would know all about this.

member_23365
BRFite
Posts: 224
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby member_23365 » 27 Jan 2016 07:31

Kashi wrote:
atamjeetsingh wrote:One thing comes to my mind is more and more defense personnel's should consider joining politics after their forces career. At least one ex defense member should be in cabinet who can understand the capabilities and resources required to give a solid jhapad.


Gen V.K. Singh is there (even if as MoS with independent charge). Surely he would know all about this.


Yes we need more ex-defense personnels in politics. The way he managed the Yemen resuce utilizing the resources present was really a commendable job. If it was done by any other Nation's politician he would have been made a super hero by our MSM.
Right now I doubt his inputs are taken regarding security issues, maybe to give Gen Suhag freedom to operate.

kapilrdave
BRFite
Posts: 1566
Joined: 17 Nov 2008 13:10

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby kapilrdave » 27 Jan 2016 11:46

We should invent some excuses to disputify the IB. Especially the border around pakjab. This will sh*t scare bakis from upping the ante as it could possibly result into full blown war which they are sure to lose. Currently the only fear they have from war is that they might lose some territory in Kashmir which is not really dear to pakjabi faujis as the border of pakjab. They don't care for the loss of lives anyways.

At least just to relish the dance of the monkey when it's as* is on fire, this is option is worth a try.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1160
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby rkhanna » 02 Feb 2016 16:43

An example of how its done

SAS team dressed in Burkha's take down ISIS Commander in the middle of Raqqa (ISIS Capital)
http://sofrep.com/46819/british-special-forces-disguised-in-burkas-raid-islamic-state-bunker-housing-jihadi-chief/

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5680
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str

Postby vishvak » 02 Feb 2016 23:36

Every terrorist caught alive must have his legal paperworks in order i.e. going to town demanding paperwork for terrorists that cross over.

This should be the first step at every meeting, especially ones that demand equal equal treatment. After all, the Paki jihadi army i.e. state actors can not control terrorists within anyways.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DrRatnadip and 62 guests