Naval LCA - News and Discussion

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Kakarat
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 24 Jul 2018 01:42

Indranil do you have any idea on status of NP-5 (Second LCA Navy trainer) which ADA is suppose to have started building as early as 2015

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Jul 2018 01:49

Kartik wrote:And could the IAF PLEASE take a look at how effective the navy's LCA color scheme looks versus the antiquated two tone scheme on IAF's Tejas fighters?!

I don't know why IAF insists on that two-tone colour scheme for Tejas. None of the other fighters sport that toyish scheme.

Kakarat wrote:Indranil do you have any idea on status of NP-5 (Second LCA Navy trainer) which ADA is suppose to have started building as early as 2015

No sir.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Jul 2018 06:50

Indranil wrote:Things are going to move fast on the NLCA in the next couple of weeks and months. Strap your belts!


Can’t wait for news! Already have visions in my head of the NLCA landing on the Vikrant as part of its first air group.

Vikrant is expected for sea trials in late 2020 and hand over to Navy by 2021 with commissioning possibly in 2022 after wringing out by the IN.

Possible that the NLCA could be ready by then — four years from now? Weight was an issue cited by the Navy in 2016 but I don’t think DRDO ever stopped working on it.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 24 Jul 2018 07:32

Here is another shot of beauty NP-2 from yelahanka, too me this is what all the lca should look like :

http://www.airliners.net/photo/India-Na ... Bb9aL6k%3D

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 24 Jul 2018 07:39

Very nice photo Krishna. The Naval Tejas is one beautiful aircraft.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 24 Jul 2018 10:40

:twisted: Rakesh we at brf can hardly be called objective viewer of the Tejas in any of its forms. :twisted:

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby rohan1424 » 24 Jul 2018 12:43

Its heartening to see GoI revive the N-LCA project . Hope to see N-LCA or its variant on INS Vishal . What a sight it will be !!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 24 Jul 2018 14:20

Indranil wrote:Things are going to move fast on the NLCA in the next couple of weeks and months. Strap your belts!



I assume that it will be made to operate from the Vikramaditya as a test case. That is he only inference that can be drawn from your post.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Jul 2018 14:29

The key would be to convince the IN to set aside its apprehension and purchase 3-4 squadrons of Tejas for Vikrant and Vikram. IN is quite adamant that N Tejas does not meet their need or requirements. Hope NS can convince them other wise.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Jul 2018 14:29

rohan1424 wrote:Its heartening to see GoI revive the N-LCA project . Hope to see N-LCA or its variant on INS Vishal . What a sight it will be !!


Heavens no, not the Vishal. The MoD hasn’t even approved even a plan yet when even had we begun yesterday, it would not be ready until after 2030 going by our records.

I hope to see it on the Vikrant.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 24 Jul 2018 14:37

Just imagine if two NLCAs are commissioned (mark 1 series) as Electronic Warfare Aircraft per aircraft carrier.

OMG 4 Mark 1 flying across two aircraft carriers.
I swear ... ladoo batunga !!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Jul 2018 14:44

Austin wrote:The key would be to convince the IN to set aside its apprehension and purchase 3-4 squadrons of Tejas for Vikrant and Vikram. IN is quite adamant that N Tejas does not meet their need or requirements. Hope NS can convince them other wise.


The IN is funding the NLCA so I believe it will buy if there is progress (in particular with the weight.) They were adamant when that report came out which coincided with the MiG-29K “needs to ruggedized” report. They had a turkey in the 29K and wanted a new carrier fighter. I think the NLCA simply got caught up in the Navy’s drive for the 57 RFI — they had to say something to justify the 57. The MoD would have asked them to wait for the NLCA.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Jul 2018 16:15

The last statement from IN chief was very crisp and clear that N-LCA does not meet their needs , Nothing has changed since then , Fall all you know ADA might be flying this to get expereince in building Naval fighters and IN too would support this.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 24 Jul 2018 17:51

^^ That statement was a while ago and N-LCA has resumed flying is today. Is that not change? For all we know, IN may have changed their mind just not come out with it publicly after their bitter taste with the half-legged Roosi maal that spend more time on the ground than a dead eagle.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 24 Jul 2018 18:01

Kakarat wrote:
jahaju wrote:Xposting

It’s alive! Naval LCA flew its first sortie today with tailhook. #Goa

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 03073?s=19




Its back with a bang. What a beauty. Hope it will not be forced to be a hanger queen anymore. Can't wait for it to start doing testing in Goa again and be back on the track.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Jul 2018 18:21

Kashi wrote:^^ That statement was a while ago and N-LCA has resumed flying is today. Is that not change? For all we know, IN may have changed their mind just not come out with it publicly after their bitter taste with the half-legged Roosi maal that spend more time on the ground than a dead eagle.


Naval staff requirement does not change in one year , the fundamental short fall mentioned by chief like short on range and payload ,single engine etc won’t change just because N Tejas started flying again

May be they can just induct a squadron just to get the experience of building a naval fighter and plan B if 57 bird RFI gets cancelled which loooks more likely given cost involved in that case IN May be forced to induct Tejas in large numbers

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 24 Jul 2018 18:59

Kashi wrote:^^ That statement was a while ago and N-LCA has resumed flying is today. Is that not change? For all we know, IN may have changed their mind just not come out with it publicly after their bitter taste with the half-legged Roosi maal that spend more time on the ground than a dead eagle.



Kashi ji, you are too harsh on the Roos. A dead eagle would be on the ground 100% of the time. CAG said the MiG-29K was on the ground between 63% and 84% of the time onlee.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/mig-29k-fighter-planes-face-operational-deficiencies-cag-report/amp_articleshow/53400918.cms

The availability rate ranged from 15.9 per cent to 37.63 per cent between 2010-14, the study revealed.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 24 Jul 2018 19:04

Peace time availability of any fighter is not the same as war time availability , IN can bump up operational availability of any fighter during war time like IAAF does during exercises or during Kargil ops

In fact during Kargil IN got most of its SHAR operational and even practised taking off from merchant ships as Viraat was under maintenance , less than half or just 1/3 shar used to be operational during normal times felt strength total was ~20

29K availability in 2010-14 is not the same as 2015-18

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 24 Jul 2018 19:21

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:


Its back with a bang. What a beauty. Hope it will not be forced to be a hanger queen anymore. Can't wait for it to start doing testing in Goa again and be back on the track.

It’s headed there straightaway. Entrapments coming up soon.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 24 Jul 2018 19:24

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1021734038342717441

FIRST VIDEO: LCA Navy NP2 flies for the first time with its tailhook on July 23 off Goa.


The link has a 15 sec video of LCA Navy deploying its tailhook

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 24 Jul 2018 20:08

Austin wrote:The key would be to convince the IN to set aside its apprehension and purchase 3-4 squadrons of Tejas for Vikrant and Vikram. IN is quite adamant that N Tejas does not meet their need or requirements. Hope NS can convince them other wise.
Not going to happen. The path here is quite straightforward and it is a development path. There is a need to do specific things to NLCA Mk1 with the 404 engine to continue to make it a naval fighter. This process culminates into the NLCA Mk2 with the 414 engine. Because of the way ADA has gone about this to create the LCA for the IAF first, deriving a naval version fighter from it is not straightforward, possible the other way around. Since the processes are divergent, there is no option but for the development of these two Mk2 versions to follow divergent paths (Tejas Mk2 and NLCA Mk2). It means investment, time and patience, along with the availability of resources.

The hope is someone higher up has banged some heads to form a plan and this is not just the development organization toying with things on their own. Not a bad thing to do but different from a deliberate planned action towards end objectives, duly funded.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby suryag » 25 Jul 2018 08:27

Great to see the hook coming out. Now what are the possibilities while testing this, i mean what could go wrong. So me the ace designer thinks
Primary objective - try to test the arrested landing hook functionality
Prerequisite - the aircraft shouldnt be affected adversely under any circumstance while trying to accomplish Primary objective
So what could happen?
1. the aircraft lands with the hook and doesnt catch the arrestor wires, i presume this will be tested on the SBTF? in such a case it will take the ramp again
2. the aircraft hits the hook but the hook breaks after decelerating the aircraft - this is worrisome, what will the pilot do
3. while 2 happens the aircraft gets yawed and then strays off course - another worrisome case :(
4. successful arrested landing

now that we are round the corner to test the arrested landing am excited and worried

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby nrshah » 25 Jul 2018 10:21

suryag wrote:So what could happen?
1. the aircraft lands with the hook and doesnt catch the arrestor wires, i presume this will be tested on the SBTF? in such a case it will take the ramp again
2. the aircraft hits the hook but the hook breaks after decelerating the aircraft - this is worrisome, what will the pilot do
3. while 2 happens the aircraft gets yawed and then strays off course - another worrisome case :(
4. successful arrested landing

now that we are round the corner to test the arrested landing am excited and worried


Should not they first test the aircraft on normal airstrips with arrestor wire assembly like that of carrier for
1. Hone the skills to catch the wire, and
2. Test the integrity of hook assembly so that even if it breaks, the aricraft is fine and on the runway and there are other ways to stop...

Post this satisfactory results only, the aircraft should be put on SbTF facility or a carrier..

iMHO only

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Indranil » 25 Jul 2018 10:45

They will do taxi trials with entrapment at increasing speeds till they reach carrier landing speeds.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby Kashi » 25 Jul 2018 11:30

A noobie poochh but are we likely to see any developments from NLCA find their way into MK1A? Perhaps that is one of the motivations for reviving the NLCA programme.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 25 Jul 2018 12:26

Those NLCA Mk2 path is a long one would take a decade to get every thing done , They first buy Mk1 and fly off Vikrant/Vikram and walk the talk , Use what they have and then develop experience , combat and maintenance manual , overhaul etc in regular squadron service and fix any known fault as they fly day in and out ......There are tons of things IN can do with Mk1 before they can jump over to Mk2.

These tons of thing will help the navy in reducing the issue seen when they operate Mk2 in decade from now else they will have to fix this in Mk2 ...A squadron or two purchase will make a huge difference for IN and ADA and NLCA program

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kersi » 25 Jul 2018 12:38

Khalsa wrote:Just imagine if two NLCAs are commissioned (mark 1 series) as Electronic Warfare Aircraft per aircraft carrier.

OMG 4 Mark 1 flying across two aircraft carriers.
I swear ... ladoo batunga !!


Ladoo ? WOW!!! :D :D :D I am still waiting for some 6,000 MT of mithai from "somebody" for som3thing !!!!! :(( :(( :((

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby nam » 25 Jul 2018 13:21

I don't see IN inducting LCA MK1/2 when double engine AMCA is progressing. AMCA will meet IN's criteria of 2 engines, payload and range. Given that LCA MK2 & AMCA are almost at the same stage, waiting for few more years would get IN AMCA.

LCA Navy will continue testing and building our knowledge base. IN may place couple of them on carriers to test out ops needs, similar to what USN has done with UCVs.

These lessons will be feed in to AMCA Navy.

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Re: Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A News & Discussions: 09 February 2018

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 13:26

Kashi wrote:A noobie poochh but are we likely to see any developments from NLCA find their way into MK1A? Perhaps that is one of the motivations for reviving the NLCA programme.


I think that the NLCA is also being funded by the IN and developed by the ADA, mainly as a R&D project. Lessons learned will be incorporated elsewhere for sure.

It may even lead to a more acceptable platform and hopefully, sometime in the near to mid term.

In its current avatar, it will find no place in the IN inventory.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 25 Jul 2018 13:31

Kersi wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Just imagine if two NLCAs are commissioned (mark 1 series) as Electronic Warfare Aircraft per aircraft carrier.

OMG 4 Mark 1 flying across two aircraft carriers.
I swear ... ladoo batunga !!


Ladoo ? WOW!!! :D :D :D I am still waiting for some 6,000 MT of mithai from "somebody" for som3thing !!!!! :(( :(( :((



wait what did I promise that for (if I did)
come on come on
what was the something ?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 13:35

Austin wrote:The key would be to convince the IN to set aside its apprehension and purchase 3-4 squadrons of Tejas for Vikrant and Vikram. IN is quite adamant that N Tejas does not meet their need or requirements. Hope NS can convince them other wise.


How will NS do that?? and why should she do that??

The IN desperately wanted both projects to succeed. They put their money where their mouth is.

The IN did the same in the case of the unacceptable navalised ALH too. They were among the first, if not the first to support both projects. Rosy promises remain undelivered to date. The clamor for compromise rises by the day.

In the R&D world, eagerness is often mistaken for the willingness to compromise and accept shoddy products under the guise of "give us a chance" politics.



Operating out at sea and conducting non diversionary flying is a very different ball game. This is a brutal, take no prisoners kind of flying that few understand and fewer still are willing to bet on.

Edited Please do not use unsavory language
Its is not right to disparage one group working towards national interest over another


Let us hope that some technical solutions can be found and implemented so that the projects see successful completion and customer acceptance.

Sorry, was just about to delete that part when I saw your edit.
Last edited by chetak on 25 Jul 2018 14:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 25 Jul 2018 14:25

Khalsa wrote:
Kersi wrote:
Ladoo ? WOW!!! :D :D :D snip......

wait what did I promise that for (if I did)
come on come on
what was the something ?



You are being used by the forum to remind some one else of his unfulfilled promise. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 25 Jul 2018 14:48

chetak wrote:
Austin wrote:The key would be to convince the IN to set aside its apprehension and purchase 3-4 squadrons of Tejas for Vikrant and Vikram. IN is quite adamant that N Tejas does not meet their need or requirements. Hope NS can convince them other wise.


How will NS do that?? and why should she do that??

The IN desperately wanted both projects to succeed. They put their money where their mouth is.

The IN did the same in the case of the unacceptable navalised ALH too. They were among the first, if not the first to support both projects. Rosy promises remain undelivered to date. The clamor for compromise rises by the day.

In the R&D world, eagerness is often mistaken for the willingness to compromise and accept shoddy products under the guise of "give us a chance" politics.

Ignorant buggers in the PSUs and labs are never willing to put their own lives on the line but routinely demand that others do.

Operating out at sea and conducting non diversionary flying is a very different ball game. This is a brutal, take no prisoners kind of flying that few understand and fewer still are willing to bet on.

Let us hope that some technical solutions can be found and implemented so that the projects see successful completion and customer acceptance.


Chetakji, I understand. A carrier is not something you should accept unless with the utmost care and attention.

BUT what do we have now with the imported MiG-29K? Never mind the damning CAG report but more frightfully the Navy had said explicitly that this naval Fulcrum needs to be “ruggedized” and “re-calibrated” after landings. Why the hell should a purported carrier aircraft need to be “ruggedized”? Unless it was never fully navalized in the first place.

So would our Navy pilots be at any more risk with a NLCA than they are now? And yes, I know it is one engine versus two but there is also the high reliability of a GE F404 versus the rather infamous RD-33.

Yes, it is not my life being put on the line so it is not for me to tell the Navy to accept the NLCA just because it us domestic. But take the case of the chinis and the J-15. They could have simply bought carrier aircraft from Russia as we have. Instead, they have perservered with the loss of pilots and planes because they J-15 is theirs and it will inevitably increase their national capacity with every takeoff and landing it does.

I think their pilots who risk their lives on the J-15 know exactly what the stakes are for themselves and for the nation. I think our pilots would know so too if given the chance to fly our own plane off our carrier.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 14:51

chola wrote:
chetak wrote:
How will NS do that?? and why should she do that??

The IN desperately wanted both projects to succeed. They put their money where their mouth is.

The IN did the same in the case of the unacceptable navalised ALH too. They were among the first, if not the first to support both projects. Rosy promises remain undelivered to date. The clamor for compromise rises by the day.

In the R&D world, eagerness is often mistaken for the willingness to compromise and accept shoddy products under the guise of "give us a chance" politics.

Operating out at sea and conducting non diversionary flying is a very different ball game. This is a brutal, take no prisoners kind of flying that few understand and fewer still are willing to bet on.

Let us hope that some technical solutions can be found and implemented so that the projects see successful completion and customer acceptance.


Chetakji, I understand. A carrier is not something you should accept unless with the utmost care and attention.

BUT what do we have now with the imported MiG-29K? Never mind the damning CAG report but more frightfully the Navy had said explicitly that this naval Fulcrum needs to be “ruggedized” and “re-calibrated” after landings. Why the hell should a purported carrier aircraft need to be “ruggedized”? Unless it was never fully navalized in the first place.

So would our Navy pilots be at any more risk with a NLCA than they are now? And yes, I know it is one engine versus two but there is also the high reliability of a GE F404 versus the rather infamous RD-33.

Yes, it is not my life being put on the line so it is not for me to tell the Navy to accept the NLCA just because it us domestic. But take the case of the chinis and the J-15. They could have simply bought carrier aircraft from Russia as we have. Instead, they have perservered with the loss of pilots and planes because they J-15 is theirs and it will inevitably increase their national capacity with every takeoff and landing it does.

I think their pilots who risk their lives on the J-15 know exactly what the stakes are for themselves and for the nation. I think our pilots would know so too if given the chance to fly our own plane off our carrier.


Their families certainly don't think so and family pressure can be very telling.

The civil airlines have mostly benefited from such pressure.

A great many ex military aviator types have simply migrated to safer and more lucrative commercial flying.

This is not the type of loss we can sustain without paying a "grave" penalty.

Everyone contributes but with the sole exception of a wartime scenario, it is not fair nor realistic to expect such an unequal contribution from any one single section of the MIC ecosystem.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kersi » 25 Jul 2018 15:07

Austin wrote:Peace time availability of any fighter is not the same as war time availability , IN can bump up operational availability of any fighter during war time like IAAF does during exercises or during Kargil ops

In fact during Kargil IN got most of its SHAR operational and even practised taking off from merchant ships as Viraat was under maintenance , less than half or just 1/3 shar used to be operational during normal times felt strength total was ~20

29K availability in 2010-14 is not the same as 2015-18


Austin. Are you trying to justify the poor availiblity of IN's MiG 29 with some data on SHAR ? What is the basis of this comparison ? NONE as I see. What is the objective of this comparison ? To prove that MiG 29 is not a bad aircraft !!!!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kersi » 25 Jul 2018 15:08

Austin wrote:Those NLCA Mk2 path is a long one would take a decade to get every thing done , They first buy Mk1 and fly off Vikrant/Vikram and walk the talk , Use what they have and then develop experience , combat and maintenance manual , overhaul etc in regular squadron service and fix any known fault as they fly day in and out ......There are tons of things IN can do with Mk1 before they can jump over to Mk2.

These tons of thing will help the navy in reducing the issue seen when they operate Mk2 in decade from now else they will have to fix this in Mk2 ...A squadron or two purchase will make a huge difference for IN and ADA and NLCA program


:D :D :D

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kersi » 25 Jul 2018 15:11

Khalsa wrote:
Kersi wrote:
Ladoo ? WOW!!! :D :D :D I am still waiting for some 6,000 MT of mithai from "somebody" for som3thing !!!!! :(( :(( :((



wait what did I promise that for (if I did)
come on come on
what was the something ?


I think i a misunderstood

I mean "I am still waiting for those 6,000 MT of mithai from "somebody" for something !!!!!

I am waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, till all the neutrons have been used up !!!!!!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Picklu » 25 Jul 2018 15:40

Kersi wrote:
Khalsa wrote:

wait what did I promise that for (if I did)
come on come on
what was the something ?


I think i a misunderstood

I mean "I am still waiting for those 6,000 MT of mithai from "somebody" for something !!!!!

I am waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting, till all the neutrons have been used up !!!!!!


Once you allow the import (of a shq), all desi (mithai) delivery are starved of fund only.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2018 15:43

Kersi wrote:
Austin wrote:Those NLCA Mk2 path is a long one would take a decade to get every thing done , They first buy Mk1 and fly off Vikrant/Vikram and walk the talk , Use what they have and then develop experience , combat and maintenance manual , overhaul etc in regular squadron service and fix any known fault as they fly day in and out ......There are tons of things IN can do with Mk1 before they can jump over to Mk2.

These tons of thing will help the navy in reducing the issue seen when they operate Mk2 in decade from now else they will have to fix this in Mk2 ...A squadron or two purchase will make a huge difference for IN and ADA and NLCA program


:D :D :D


Maybe it can be used as a shore based trainer and still perform a useful role by carrying out arrested landings when the platform is available.

It is not entirely realistic to see an operational role for this aircraft in its present development status and growth limitations, constrained as they are by many factors.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 25 Jul 2018 17:01

MiG-29K availability issues aside, it is an in-service aircraft whose net availability can be boosted by acquiring more of the same type.

If IN wants to operate 3 carriers then the best bet would be to acquire 2 more squadrons of Fulcrums and 1 more Vikrant carrier.

NLCA may come along in the meantime and may see service for limited but crucial roles such as air defence and carrier qualification of pilots. Naval air power will also be exercised by shore based MRAs and shipborne choppers.

I believe this is the most viable path to a full complement air wing at sea.


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