Naval LCA - News and Discussion

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prasannasimha
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 04 Aug 2018 06:17

Typically engagement of the second wire is aimed for in carrier landings. Trapping the first wire is not considered ideal. 3rd wire is also a near hit miss during post flight debriefing.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Aug 2018 06:49

Why not first?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2018 07:44

disha wrote:Hence to say that NLCA cannot take current ASW/AEW since it is not twin engined like American is orthogonal logic.


ASW and AEW are long loiter jobs requiring sonar and all aspect radar respectively, completely outside the mission profile and capability of ANY fast fighter.

disha wrote:
chola wrote:Yes, the AC needs to be able take off with a load of pods. It is not possible to build the entire suite integral to the airframe.


Load out of number of pods to do exactly what? Note that one does not have to have a TFTA khan like growler in NLCA. One has to have a ASW/AEW suit to the current needs of the IN. If the current needs are met by helicopters in ASW/AEW then it can be met by NLCA as well.


To detect and jam radar frequencies. The more pods you have, the wider the range of frequencies you can affect and the more you can saturate the frequencies you are targeting. There is no difference between having a good load for strike and having a good load for EW. Doing EW doesn’t suddenly allow you use lightweight weapon systems — which is what a jammer is.

I want the NLCA inducted but it won’t be a Growler. It is a point defense fighter so it’ll used for CAP around the carrier. There is not enough range or load — again the NLCA already has a weight issue which reduces both.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Aug 2018 12:49

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 59456?s=19


Landing Tejas on an aircraft carrier meant that airframe was stressed 5 times than the IAF variant hence every LRU was recertified while modifying it by 45 percent. The pull of the arresting gear places a 4.59 g force on the airframe. Ramp takeoff also was more stressful. https://t.co/M70vYgdovb

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 Aug 2018 13:16

RE: ASW, chola, the all aspect radar most likely for surface targets. You need carry & drop sonibouys for sub-surface. You need a larger platform like P3.

This should be the major goal (dual use tech) of shin meiwa. I think we are going to make in India this strategic platform. I hope that was the intention.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2018 14:51

SaiK wrote:RE: ASW, chola, the all aspect radar most likely for surface targets. You need carry & drop sonibouys for sub-surface. You need a larger platform like P3.

This should be the major goal (dual use tech) of shin meiwa. I think we are going to make in India this strategic platform. I hope that was the intention.


Yes the best AC for ASW are large land-based ones that can carry load, range and endurance. You need loiter time for any detection job.

ASW for carrier aircraft will always be compromised by size but you can sanitize areas beyond the range of land-based AC. You still need endurance. Turboprops and helicopters fit the role. A high bypass turbofan like that on the S-3 Viking can do the job too. Low bypass engines on fighters designed for performance cannot.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 04 Aug 2018 15:27

ks_sachin wrote:Why not first?


Safety

Read this

Because no one’s aim is perfect. Aiming a little bit high and long by going for the 2nd wire provides a necessary margin for error. If you aim for the 2–wire and are a little low, you catch the 1-wire. However if you aim for the 1- wire and are a little low, you hit the ‘ramp’, crashing, burning, and dying.


To add on to the other answer, there is some wiggle room in there. Ideally the 2nd wire ( 2 wire as commonly referred) is the sweet spot, the place your looking to catch, but in case your short you've got the one wire and if you over shoot you have the 3 wire and in some cases the 4 wire. The military is definitely about redundancy. A back up for the back up. The other wires serve also in case the 2 wire breaks and and they don't have time to get it swapped before they need to catch the next bird, or if there's problems with the 2 wire. Also on the note of “if the wire breaks” that is why as soon as they hit the deck they go to full throttle on prop planes and after burner on fighters when landing, so they can hopefully have enough thrust to take back off in case it breaks

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 Aug 2018 19:07

I'd definitely be right to say no a/c is designed to place the wire #1 so close to ramp edge. Of course you should be way (early) off if that is the case and you are novice or not reading your instruments.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Aug 2018 22:41

Mamish_P
The saying goes :
Belt, suspenders, and rope.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 04 Aug 2018 23:04

Belt and Suspenders understood.. not clear on the rope

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 01:51

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 6128009217 ---> LCA NP-2 piloted by Captain Shivnath Dahiya executea the first contact of arrestor hook system at moderate taxi-in speeds at the Shore Based Test Facility, INS Hansa, Goa, yesterday.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 04:53

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1025055442592907264 ---> HAL's 'Aircraft Research & Design Centre' has developed the Arrestor Hook System being used by LCA-Navy Prototype, NP-2.


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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Aug 2018 19:14

You aim for 2 wire as if you aim for 1 and fall short you have high chance hitting the deck with your sngl of descent. 3 and 4 are for redundancy. This is a standard aircraft carrier practice. You hit the wire but accelerate for take off in case the arrestor cable breaks.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Haridas » 05 Aug 2018 21:13

^^^^ no, the a/c is on full power in case you completely miss the wire.
If cable breaks sea dunking is certain, no two ways about it.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Aug 2018 22:55

^ by accelerate I meant we are literally taking off even thpugh cable arrests the craft as failure to arrest as Haridas said will end in a dunk in the sea so we are loterally taking off while landing with the cable hslting the take off !

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 05 Aug 2018 23:46

Given that the F-35 requires a special heat resistant tarmac to take off, the Navy better plan for future installation of such a tarmac on the carrier being planned - for the naval AMCA.

They have to factor that in NOW during the design stage.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 06 Aug 2018 13:29

Thats due to the vtol nature I think.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Aug 2018 16:47

The vertical fan for VTOL. Sea harriers also had maneuverable ducts.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 07 Aug 2018 01:29

the VTOLs are for USMC, not USN.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 07 Aug 2018 08:18

disha wrote:
rajsunder wrote:ECM/EW Jets are always twin engined(American). If we see the evolution of these jets, they have always been huge jets, be it EF-111 or EA-6B or the latest EF-18G. I even read that other than the Anti Radiation missiles and the standard gun, they do not carry any other defensive aids.

So to sum it up, we need a Twin engined NLCA to have a basic version of desi growler.


As I understand in summation "all American ECM/EW jets are twin engined, ergo for a basic desi version we need twin engined NLCA".

It is an interesting take since we are actually forgetting the desi factors. IN does not have a carrier battle group like US has. Neither the requirements of US. Other than in 1971, no IN aircraft carrier was used for offensive purposes. And uses helicopters for ASW and AEW.

Hence to say that NLCA cannot take current ASW/AEW since it is not twin engined like American is orthogonal logic.

show me a helicopter that can keep up with a fighter jet. Then i will accept your statement.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 07 Aug 2018 14:36

^^^^ Jeeez all of you.
Even if the NLCA performs at reduced capacity as a desi growler. It provides an opportunity X many times.
I can count many but I will sum it up as

A role for Naval LCA

I cannot believe we have budget for 57 Naval fighters when the Migs have plenty of life left in them.
Vishal is nowhere near the drawing board.

Guys get real please

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 07 Aug 2018 23:04

Here I have said it:

NLCA is a two-legged Cheetah


And it definitely is not a Tiger as well. Heck it is not even a cat.

But here is a beautiful aircraft which can take-off and land on an aircraft carrier, a delta wing-single engined light naval combat aircraft with 3000 Kgs of useable provisions.

NLCA must see operational use, even if it is in a limited batch of 12 aircraft and 2 trainers.

If one is still unsure of why, please see this video of NLCA - KickAss Kangaroo

Last edited by disha on 08 Aug 2018 02:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 07 Aug 2018 23:05

rajsunder wrote:Then i will accept your statement.


You do not have to accept any of my statement. Please do not. Just go by Commodore Maolankar's statement and see what they plan to do and what they can do.

For the rest, the question that one should ask is simple - "What can I do with a Naval aircraft with 3000 Kgs of useable weight and 500 litre drop tank and 300 NM of radius", particularly when the carrier is sitting 300 NM out to the sea from Indira point.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 09 Aug 2018 23:20

Manish_P wrote:Belt and Suspenders understood.. not clear on the rope


Rope in case the wires are not strong enough.

Posters forget that any aircraft carrier has to operate out at sea and they have to operate night and day and not necessary in perfect weather and ocean conditions. And of course ocean has waves which will jostle the entire aircraft carrier horizontally, vertically, diagonally and all at the same time.
.
So when you are coming in to land, and your airstrip is literally swaying in front of you in almost pitch dark conditions. At that time, all you have is the faith in your training, in your team, your skills and a fervent hope that if the right "rope" does not catch you, you still have the "last mile" to take off and try again, since you have already dumped any excess fuel.

Note that while landing the jet is preparing for take off, so when the wire is tripped., imagine the load it causes on the airframe? No country is going to give out the mechanical stress tables of their naval aircraft. It can be learnt only when operated.

===

And there is a good reason why only US, Russia, France and India are considered as true blue water navies now (not fUK or Cheen or any other nation).

Since it takes special abilities to design, build and operate your own aircraft carrier and a compliment of aircrafts to go with it.

===

So the challenge remains,

What can I do with a Naval aircraft with 3000 Kgs of useable carry weight and 500 litre drop tank and ability to operate in 300 NM of radius", particularly when the carrier is sitting 300 NM out to the sea from Indira point.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Aug 2018 06:05

disha wrote:But here is a beautiful aircraft which can take-off and land on an aircraft carrier, a delta wing-single engined light naval combat aircraft with 3000 Kgs of useable provisions.

NLCA must see operational use, even if it is in a limited batch of 12 aircraft and 2 trainers.
Not true. Not only is Mk1 overweight reducing its useable provisions but its thrust is deemed not sufficient for deck take off to meet mission objectives. The parties ADA, IN are in agreement on Mk1's issues. The debate between them was about IN's level of involvement and support/confidence in the team for the evolution of MK1 as a TD and then to MK2 as a production craft. All this has been posted before....

In addition, a new leading edge control surface, viz., LEVCON was introduced to facilitate reduction in approach speeds for deck recovery. Due to this being a first-time effort to design and develop a carrier borne fighter aircraft, there was conservatism in the plan-form leading to a mass increase by about 400 to 500 kg. This is why the thrust available for deck take-off fell short of mission objectives. It was thus decided that the LCA Navy Mk1 would be only a ‘Technology Demonstrator’ and utilized to conduct carrier suitability tests and demonstration.

The statement made by the CNS Admiral Sunil Lanba on 03 December 2016 of the aircraft being overweight pertains to the LCA Navy Mk1, and not the redesigned and optimised LCA Navy Mk2.

Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... -is-wrong/

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 10 Aug 2018 07:50

disha wrote:And there is a good reason why only US, Russia, France and India are considered as true blue water navies now (not fUK or Cheen or any other nation).


Are u kidding.

Half the fleet we are sailing around with are ships of foreign origin purchased at a great cost.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 10 Aug 2018 08:28

Neshant wrote:
disha wrote:And there is a good reason why only US, Russia, France and India are considered as true blue water navies now (not fUK or Cheen or any other nation).


Are u kidding.

Half the fleet we are sailing around with are ships of foreign origin purchased at a great cost.


He is an enthusuastic Rakshak! And I like the fUK quip. LoL

That said, the fUK is the historical owner of the prototypical “blue water” navy. We had a taste of it for several hundred years and it is the traditional base of our own blue water navy.

I find hardly anyone not seeing Cheen as blue water when they are in the Baltic, off Africa and, especially, in the IOR. If PLAN were not blue water then we have nothing to worry about in this thread, no?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 10 Aug 2018 09:58

Image

People were seen running helter skelter to find tarps to cover the Tejas (if you know what I mean :wink: ).

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 10 Aug 2018 12:19

^^ what a beauty

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Neshant » 10 Aug 2018 12:33

chola wrote:He is an enthusuastic Rakshak!


The average Indian in the street believes the country is so strong it could probably finish America off.

Strangely the lower down one goes on the economic scale, the stronger that belief gets.

By the time one gets to interview local beggars, one gets the impression that India rules the galaxy.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 10 Aug 2018 16:29

^^^ This is the same for all countries. Once you are well off enough to travel then you realize there are some pretty formidable places out there besides your own,

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 10 Aug 2018 19:19

https://www.ada.gov.in/

· 4102th flight on 10th Aug

TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:422 LSP5: 419

TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 219 LSP2: 317 LSP4: 371 LSP7: 304

NP1: 73 LSP8 : 238 PV6:197 NP2: 68 SP6:8


Seems rigorous testing underway in both Tejas and LCA Navy, they have been 32 flights (22+10) in the first 10 days of aug. LSP8 is back flying after about a month & hoping for some good news on AAR.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 10 Aug 2018 21:47

It is interesting that fUK is still considered a blue water navy! And neither they were the original blue water navy. One just has to look at the Chozan empire and it being the first maritime empire and all that. Yes, fUK was strong at some point due to colonial loot and they are not strong any more. To say that they are one of the current dominant maritime power will lead to :rotfl:

fUK do not have any operational Aircraft Carrier *currently* and neither do they have any naval fighter program. Blue water navy indeed. Of course, IN ships have a right to berth at fUK since fUK is now an Indian colony. There is this delicate matter of handing over Ascension island in S. Atlantic to India. Maybe an exchange of Diego Garcia to India and Ascension Island to US can take place. But that is for future. In the immediate, IN has an operational Aircraft Carrier and will have another one by 2022/2023.

Coming to PLAN, doing some hoo-ha around the coast of Africa does not make them a blue-water navy. Their "operational aircraft carrier" is a training ship. One should read the story on how it was towed to China.

Again a pisko-analysis what brought in on beggars (runk) and rich (rajah) (in hindi: Raja aur Runk., King and Beggars) is interesting. It indicates that the "rich" are pusillanimous because they have more to lose. For the runk (beggar) there is nothing else to lose but pride of freedom. Which is more important than life. My point is pisko-analysis goes both ways and this should be the last on pisko-analysis.

---

Shaurya'ji., I will provide my detail analysis on the IDR article later.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 11 Aug 2018 03:47

Indranil wrote:
People were seen running helter skelter to find tarps to cover the Tejas (if you know what I mean :wink: ).


hahahahah! very good one Indranil! Should find that old report and tweet this picture next to it!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 12 Aug 2018 16:29

https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/

Continuing with the progress from LCA Navy's current Carrier compatibility flight test phase, we present the fans this exclusive image of NP-2 estimating the effects of tail hook bounce and drag on the designated runway meant for arrested landing and bolter.
The statement appears simple. The effort in carrying out this particular test has been enormous. Usually, time runs on its own pace. We, now strive harder to catch up with all the lost time for unforeseen reasons with bigger and stronger steps.
Jai Hind..


Image

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 12 Aug 2018 16:36

This is how progress is made, inches by inches, feet by feet.

The only thing is that this learning must not be allowed to be forgotten. Like it was for hf 24.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Trikaal » 12 Aug 2018 21:56

We should be funding parallel development of Tejas Mk2-Navy. The current plan of developing Naval version after the Air force version puts this program under the threat of becoming irrelevant or worse getting shelved. I know our capex is severely constrained but I am sure we can find the funds if we cancel 1 or 2 foreign orders.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 15 Aug 2018 11:25

Here's another beautiful image of the Naval LCA NP2

Image

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 15 Aug 2018 20:20

^Kartik'ji - where is it? Please do not post such teaser posts.


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