Naval LCA - News and Discussion

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Indranil
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 15 Aug 2018 23:26

Dabolim

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 16 Aug 2018 04:59

Kartik wrote:Here's another beautiful image of the Naval LCA NP2

Image

The same picture with color balance

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 16 Aug 2018 05:02

Kakarat wrote:Image

Not enough has been said about how amazing this picture is. Deb Rana is a bit of a genius.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2018 06:05

Due to small size it has a trainerish look

Need to put some meat on the bone there

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Aug 2018 06:25

you mean shot angle?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Aug 2018 07:27

Image

this looks meaty!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby rohan1424 » 16 Aug 2018 09:04

disha wrote:^Kartik'ji - where is it? Please do not post such teaser posts.


INS Hansa , Dabolim ,Goa

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Aug 2018 11:40

what is inside the huge flankerish hump behind the cockpit - more fuel and avionics moved up due to larger landing gear?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Aug 2018 13:07

Singha wrote:what is inside the huge flankerish hump behind the cockpit - more fuel and avionics moved up due to larger landing gear?


I believe its the second cockpit that contains additional fuel and avionics in the single seat version.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 16 Aug 2018 15:11

PratikDas wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Image

Not enough has been said about how amazing this picture is. Deb Rana is a bit of a genius.


Is this a takeoff or landing? In either case does the tail-hook scratch and burn like that in all such planes?
I suppose that this would damage the carrier surface as well as the hook itself

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 16 Aug 2018 15:29

AdityaM wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Not enough has been said about how amazing this picture is. Deb Rana is a bit of a genius.


Is this a takeoff or landing? In either case does the tail-hook scratch and burn like that in all such planes?
I suppose that this would damage the carrier surface as well as the hook itself


According to Tejas FB page they are testing the hook
Continuing with the progress from LCA Navy's current Carrier compatibility flight test phase, we present the fans this exclusive image of NP-2 estimating the effects of tail hook bounce and drag on the designated runway meant for arrested landing and bolter.
The statement appears simple. The effort in carrying out this particular test has been enormous. Usually, time runs on its own pace. We, now strive harder to catch up with all the lost time for unforeseen reasons with bigger and stronger steps.
Jai Hind..

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 17 Aug 2018 00:48

Indranil wrote:Dabolim


:-) I did not mean the location, I just was not seeing the image and thought somebody put a teaser post without image.

Thanks for the images, sight for sore eyes.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 17 Aug 2018 00:51

AdityaM wrote:Is this a takeoff or landing? In either case does the tail-hook scratch and burn like that in all such planes?
I suppose that this would damage the carrier surface as well as the hook itself


Landing. Yes, the tail-hook scratch, burn and bounce and that is the test all about! It will give data on the stress placed on the tail hook and its fatigue limits. It will also give data on dampening required etc and whole lot of areas which only the Naval LCA designers and builders and operators know and we can only presume.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 17 Aug 2018 00:55

Singha wrote:what is inside the huge flankerish hump behind the cockpit - more fuel and avionics moved up due to larger landing gear?


IMO, the nose droop on naval LCA to provide for improved visibility during landing created that "hump", which can then house more 'naval avionics', but can theoretically have more fuel.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Aug 2018 08:36

light weight fuel bladders can be used to fit various shape space.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 17 Aug 2018 09:47

AdityaM wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Not enough has been said about how amazing this picture is. Deb Rana is a bit of a genius.


Is this a takeoff or landing? In either case does the tail-hook scratch and burn like that in all such planes?
I suppose that this would damage the carrier surface as well as the hook itself


I believe it is similar to the touch-and-go tests we performed on the Vikramaditya:


Just in this case, we lower the hook and let it drag across the landing runway. It is not hooking a cable. The carrier surface is different from the tarmac of the land runway and is coated with a rubbery no-skid material so you don’t see the dramatic sparks like in this picture.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 19 Aug 2018 00:29

Thank you chola,Disha,Kakarat for setting the context to the image.
I missed the original post with text

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 19 Aug 2018 04:50

perhaps, we could extend our testing by coating rubbery non-skid material on the land runway as well. no? #justsaying

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Aug 2018 12:27

AdityaM wrote:Thank you chola,Disha,Kakarat for setting the context to the image.
I missed the original post with text

If there had not been a continuous streak of fire, it would have been a failed test. They have also completed TO from ramp and from retrained start with full internal fuel.

This last test campaign was a great one.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Aug 2018 17:31

If the 4 amphibs were to have a ski- jump like the JC vessels, we could use the NLCA on them for CS/ strike in support of amphib ops.The aircraft is small, around the same size of heavy helos and would deliver far more varied ordnance onto targets as well as PGMs from alts. outside enemy MANPADS and AA fire.The would also give the amphibs a measure of integral air defence for the amphib task force, and equipped with "Harpoonskis" or other similar anti-shipping missiles, could be very deadly in that role.

However, a pic of L&Ts JC variant now the sole contender, has deleted the ski jump, a great pity, shortsightedness on the part of the IN, as equipped with NLCAs, plus KA-31 AEW helos in a crisis ,these vessels could serve as v.useful light/med. carriers like our erstwhile Vikrant and Viraat which were both smaller.They would also complement our two 40K+ med. carriers, the VikA and the Vikrant-2.Each amphib could carry a combo of upto 16 to 20 NLCAs and helos depending upon its role.In the future, even JSFs could operate from them once they've served for a while with the USMC and all teething troubles have been fixed.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 19 Aug 2018 20:37

Philip wrote:If the 4 amphibs were to have a ski- jump like the JC vessels, we could use the NLCA on them for CS/ strike in support of amphib ops.The aircraft is small, around the same size of heavy helos and would deliver far more varied ordnance onto targets as well as PGMs from alts. outside enemy MANPADS and AA fire.The would also give the amphibs a measure of integral air defence for the amphib task force, and equipped with "Harpoonskis" or other similar anti-shipping missiles, could be very deadly in that role.

However, a pic of L&Ts JC variant now the sole contender, has deleted the ski jump, a great pity, shortsightedness on the part of the IN, as equipped with NLCAs, plus KA-31 AEW helos in a crisis ,these vessels could serve as v.useful light/med. carriers like our erstwhile Vikrant and Viraat which were both smaller.They would also complement our two 40K+ med. carriers, the VikA and the Vikrant-2.Each amphib could carry a combo of upto 16 to 20 NLCAs and helos depending upon its role.In the future, even JSFs could operate from them once they've served for a while with the USMC and all teething troubles have been fixed.


and how do you plan to land NLCA on the LHDs?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 19 Aug 2018 21:39

https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/

Presenting Tejas fans with this image of the second Navy Prototype NP-2 exiting the ramp as a weekend treat.. The recent series of ski jumps were carried out to flight test the improved control laws and present the pilots a much better control of the aircraft post ramp-exit.


Image

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Aug 2018 04:49

I've stated a long time ago that the deck of our amphibs should be based upon the flight deck of IAC-1, with an angled deck for landing, plus ski-jump.SAAB had an option for the Sea Gripen even for the Viraat about the same size.Old Vayu issue a couple of years ago.The LCA is small enough to land on a 26, 000t flat top. The Viraat/ Hermes had an angled deck originally too.

In fact we should've used IAC-1 as a template for the amphibs for the flight and hangar decks, with the other decks below as in LHPDs.If only a ski-jump provision is included, it limits future flight ops of aircraft to the JSF and anything similar that may appear from Ru in the future, but losing the opportunity to use the NLCA.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 20 Aug 2018 07:40

Philip wrote:I've stated a long time ago that the deck of our amphibs should be based upon the flight deck of IAC-1, with an angled deck for landing, plus ski-jump.SAAB had an option for the Sea Gripen even for the Viraat about the same size.Old Vayu issue a couple of years ago.The LCA is small enough to land on a 26, 000t flat top. The Viraat/ Hermes had an angled deck originally too.

In fact we should've used IAC-1 as a template for the amphibs for the flight and hangar decks, with the other decks below as in LHPDs.If only a ski-jump provision is included, it limits future flight ops of aircraft to the JSF and anything similar that may appear from Ru in the future, but losing the opportunity to use the NLCA.



if you put an angled deck on a amphibious or assault ship you no longer have a landing dock but a full blown carrier!

You simply don’t make sense!
Last edited by JayS on 23 Aug 2018 18:24, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Edited out terms/names used to refer to Phillip. Please do not use names/terms which may not be in good humer. No personal attack will be tolerated. Stick to your arguments.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Aug 2018 08:24

Why I've stated that we must use the IAC deck template for example.How would you recover the NLCA then? Lower decks tailor made for amphib ops.Remember that the Hermes and other CVs were used by the RN for amphi ops in the past, a reverse in fact.This is a hybrid solution.
Amphibs will require CS for the landings and posessing integral air support will alleviate the need for a full-fledged
CBG accompanying an amphib op. for less taxing tasks.

The whole thesis is a true multi- purpose vessel which has a secondary light carrier capability.Had we possessed a large fleet of Harriers ( like the USMC) or were part of the JSF investor brigade, the need for an angled deck would not be required.Since we are developing the NLCA, which has limited capability when compared with the twin-engined 29Ks in terms of range, etc., plus the fact that we will have until 2030 at least only 2 carriers. For these there are enough 29Ks,along with around an extra 20 NLCAs, for the two. We must build at least 40-60 NLCAs for cost-effectiveness. Just building a small number of specialised NLCAs would be prohibitively expensive.We had recently a report of the huge cost of an LCA, many times more than what is was originally expected to cost.NLCAs built in a small batch may even cost a lot more than a 29K.

Using part of this number aboard our amphibs would enhance the IN's number of naval fighter/strike aircraft available at sea aboard flat tops both for fleet defence and maritime strike.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 20 Aug 2018 13:29

Philip, by all accounts LCA-Navy is much further along in development than Sea-Gripen, which exists only on paper. If LCA-N is being rejected by IN then Sea-Gripen has same shortcomings.

That said, I support the idea of ski-jump on our amphibious assault ships. That's what Navies on a diet do. Juan Carlos is an example. STOVL aircraft are not going away and they offer great capabilities. I'd equate such ships to ALGs that are used to support IA's forward positions by helicopters, primarily. But, when push comes to shove, forward deployment of handful of fighters offer great flexibility.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 23 Aug 2018 13:46

Apologies if OT. What's interesting about this picture?

Image

Source: https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/1032141253146824705

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Aug 2018 15:07

aren't wasp class american flat tops (not full blown AC but in the range of VikAd)? The F35 engine has VTOL, why is it taking through a Ski deck, esp with the engine thrust downwards..my initial guess?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Lisa » 23 Aug 2018 16:32

^^Angle of exhaust?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 23 Aug 2018 16:39

Yes, engine exhaust is only partly pointing downwards. This will definitely improve the handling immediately after take-off from ski-jump.

I wonder, instead of developing full blown VTOL/STOVL capability, if Su-30MKI style TVC can be used to improve take-off and landing characteristics of Mig-29K and future iterations of LCA-N.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 23 Aug 2018 16:43

ArjunPandit wrote:aren't wasp class american flat tops (not full blown AC but in the range of VikAd)? The F35 engine has VTOL, why is it taking through a Ski deck, esp with the engine thrust downwards..my initial guess?


Check the twitter link. This is a RN test article. QE is heading to US to get it's first few F-35Bs.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 23 Aug 2018 17:19

Philip wrote:We had recently a report of the huge cost of an LCA, many times more than what is was originally expected to cost.NLCAs built in a small batch may even cost a lot more than a 29K.

Using part of this number aboard our amphibs would enhance the IN's number of naval fighter/strike aircraft available at sea aboard flat tops both for fleet defence and maritime strike.


One, cost should be waived for an indigenous project like the LCA/NLCA.

Two, there is no way to put the arrestor system on a landing dock and keep it a landing dock. It will become a carrier once you put in the angled deck. Amphibs like Juan Carlos are for STOVL like the F-35B onlee.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Aug 2018 17:35

https://www.facebook.com/tejas.lca/

We always talk of designers, crew members, ground engineers and other supporting staffs when an aircraft program is discussed about. However, an important element of aircraft flying program in India has been the contribution by Indian Oil Co which provides the aviation fuel across the country, practically at all the flying stations.
We dedicate this image to the organization which keeps us moving. Aptly, the words written on the tanker which says "Our ground work takes you sky high" was re-phrased by us as "your ground work takes us sky high", underlining the importance by IOC.
The image shows the naval prototype NP-2 carrying out a hot refueling in between two sorties. Hot refuelling in the prototypes has increased the operational flexibilities to a greater extent.


Image

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 23 Aug 2018 23:01

^Great work by the NLCA team. They should keep giving us such weekend treats.

NLCA is one formidable aircraft.

And what is being done for LCA-Mk1 https://swarajyamag.com/insta/csir-lab-bags-oder-from-hal-to-manufacture-air-frame-components-that-will-make-lca-tejas-20-per-cent-lighter can be done for NLCA as well.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 23 Aug 2018 23:10

LCA: Only aircraft in IAF/IN inventory capable of being hot refueled?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 23 Aug 2018 23:19


I am sorry to say that they are hooting the horn about past successes. This research is very old and used on all LSPs. This is just production order. I look forward to the day when the wing is cocured and cobonded as one structure.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 24 Aug 2018 02:06

^ It takes time. At the same time I look forward to titanium/Al-lithium landing gears and carbon fibre wheels. For the later, progress on making carbon fibre production cheaper at a set quality is more important.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 24 Aug 2018 02:50

Mr Tull, why do we need a ski jump for VTOL jet?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Aug 2018 03:41

It will have lower decks designed for amphib reqs.Even amphibs have a hangar deck for rotary wing assets just like a regular carrier.US amphibs do not have angled decks/ ski jumps because they have so many large super- carriers.We do not have such assets and can't afford even one 65K t CV.Therefore we must leverage our flag tops as much as possible for multi-role ops.

If we adopt such a design we will have at least 5 flat tops that can carry fixed- wing maritime strike fighters giving us very formidable naval air power projection in the IOR and beyond.Moreover the number of flat tops- at least 5 ( 2 med. CVs and 3 light carrier/ amphibs.), would be able to conduct simultaneous ops from the Gulf/ Arabian Sea S.Indian Ocean to the Bay of Bengal,ANC and Indonesian straits/choke points down to Oz.Ops. even in the ICS could be contemplated .

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 24 Aug 2018 04:14

I had posted in the LCA td. the current cost of an HAL built LCA Mk-1 ( Vayu) , the concerns of the MOD as being around 463 cr. , more than firang fighters and less than an MKI built in Ru which is only 330 cr.Arguably ,an NLCA would cost more than the IAF version, unless judicious project management by the IN team , part of the dev. programme,has managed to keep costs within reason.

For the NLCA to be a cost-effective proposition it must be built in larger numbers.My suggestion- using them on our amphibs ( details in the IN td.) would ensure this as well as the possibility of using them as shore based assets too in the ANC,etc.This would help take the slack of ANC island defence with more shore- based fighters, allowing the IAF to relocate some of its MKIs to hotter spots in the east and north. where increased numbers would shorten the odds for us against China and Pak.


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