Naval LCA - News and Discussion

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Kartik
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 16 Nov 2018 03:01

Frankly, I'm amazed that the IN is entertaining the Sea Gripen at all. Just a waste of time and effort in terms of evaluating it against real contenders that have thousands of actual landings on carriers, with all the associated data on how they've handled those landings and dealt with maritime environment. the IN knows better than anyone about the real issues of the MiG-29K and for the Super Hornet, the USN can provide actual data on failure rates, reliability of different avionics, structures and so on. Same for the Rafale M with the French Navy. Whereas Saab will come up with ppt giri extrapolated from Gripen C/D experience and claim it will be almost the same.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 16 Nov 2018 03:23

Only Dassault Rafale meets the requirement for plugging the gap and also one of the future platform for IN.

A small batch of Mig29K is good as interim operational planes. But definitely not a platform that can provide for future. This is in case Rafale or SHornet to come through. IN has more Mig-29k operational than Russia already. This is a deprecating platform.

If Sea-Gripen is considered, so must NLCA-1. Otherwise Sea-Gripen must be buried at sea, it is all paper only anyway.

SHornet is good, but will lead to another jambooree of different kind of planes.

NLCA-Mk1 must be "operationalized". That is there should be at least two on each aircraft carrier and participating in operations (however limited those ops are). Even if it is as observers of other ops, that is an op. Even if it is used to ferry mail.

The successor to that will be NLCA-Mk2. Navy should think in terms of 4 aircraft carriers with 26 fighter aircraft. And that means IN should think in terms of 130 aircrafts.

A "interim" 57 Rafale will take care of immediate to future needs all the way to 2050. Additional 72 NLCA-Mk2 also become the 2nd leg for the future needs.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2018 04:45

Kartik and Disha it might not be the IN choice at all but added to satisfy the MoD arcane rules of single vendor situation.

One question does the naval Rafale have same engine as the land based one?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 16 Nov 2018 05:25

Yes to the engine question

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 16 Nov 2018 10:25

disha wrote:IN has more Mig-29k operational than Russia already. This is a deprecating platform.


We should have more. We literally paid for its development!

It should not be deployed beyond the Vikrant. There is unlikely to be any development to make it catapult-capable.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 16 Nov 2018 10:48

Rakesh wrote:Yes to the engine question



naval variants are marinized and optimized for sustained operations in a predominantly marine/saline heavy environment.

The answer may well be a qualified one and not so much the simple binary.

The MiG 29 engines that the IAF and the IN have are fundamentally different, one being of conventional construction and the other being modular.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby nits » 16 Nov 2018 12:38

Gurus - Alike IAF; what is approved squadron strength of Navy and how much do we actually have as that will determine how many aircraft we will end up buying / producing in years to come

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 16 Nov 2018 13:40

ramana wrote:Kartik and Disha it might not be the IN choice at all but added to satisfy the MoD arcane rules of single vendor situation.

One question does the naval Rafale have same engine as the land based one?


It probably just kagaji karwai. Bu then the tender could have had a clause to remove paper planes from the contest. Clearly someone wants Gripen in there. But the least that IN chief can do it to dismiss paper N-Gripen, when dismissing NLCA which has far far more chances of qualifying. What would a mango man think when he reads the comments..?? NLCA is not even considered, but paper N-Gripen is in contest, which is being considered as an possible option. NLCA is fail fail only just as LCA is fail compared to Gripen.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Nov 2018 17:09

JayS wrote:
ramana wrote:Kartik and Disha it might not be the IN choice at all but added to satisfy the MoD arcane rules of single vendor situation.

One question does the naval Rafale have same engine as the land based one?


It probably just kagaji karwai. Bu then the tender could have had a clause to remove paper planes from the contest. Clearly someone wants Gripen in there. But the least that IN chief can do it to dismiss paper N-Gripen, when dismissing NLCA which has far far more chances of qualifying. What would a mango man think when he reads the comments..?? NLCA is not even considered, but paper N-Gripen is in contest, which is being considered as an possible option. NLCA is fail fail only just as LCA is fail compared to Gripen.

Does mango man actually think of this?
Remember mango man asked my mother if wasfare was bugles in the morning to enter battlefield and bugles in the evening to retire for night!!!
The mango man in India has no strategic vision for country leave alone Sea Gripen. Forget mango man. Some retired services officers are worse than mango man!!!
We have an an inflated sense of mango man!!!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 16 Nov 2018 18:16

ks_sachin wrote:
JayS wrote:
It probably just kagaji karwai. Bu then the tender could have had a clause to remove paper planes from the contest. Clearly someone wants Gripen in there. But the least that IN chief can do it to dismiss paper N-Gripen, when dismissing NLCA which has far far more chances of qualifying. What would a mango man think when he reads the comments..?? NLCA is not even considered, but paper N-Gripen is in contest, which is being considered as an possible option. NLCA is fail fail only just as LCA is fail compared to Gripen.

Does mango man actually think of this?
Remember mango man asked my mother if wasfare was bugles in the morning to enter battlefield and bugles in the evening to retire for night!!!
The mango man in India has no strategic vision for country leave alone Sea Gripen. Forget mango man. Some retired services officers are worse than mango man!!!
We have an an inflated sense of mango man!!!


Well, Sir, mango man does not think or want to think about all these issues for many reasons, hence its important to make things interesting and simple. He simply consider whatever peddled on NDTV or in TOI as correct or whatever said by AF officers as gospel truth and the sad truth in India is the narrative is not controlled by the right people. LCA is considered big failure by almost everyone who know about LCA, (even by some very experienced Aerospace engineers who have spend decades working in the industry barely a few km away from where LCA was born and brought up), bar a select few who bothered to look beyond the propaganda and prejudices or who have close experience with it. Perception matters. Its not only about feeling proud about what our Nation can make but also supporting or demanding government in investing money for such programs. A lot can be said and written but ultimately the perception filters to multiple levels. It becomes difficult to even attract good talent to work for such programs. The same perception lingers in the minds of AF officers, IAS babus and politicians one way or the other who decide the fate of a lot of such programs in small or big ways. In some sense they are Mango men too. Not everyone comes to BRF like sites and give due thought before making their minds.

Lets not underestimate Mango man. Perception management is important. If programs like LCA cannot invigorate people's minds and garner their support and respect in our own country, whos gonna respect them outside..?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Nov 2018 18:32

JayS wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Does mango man actually think of this?
Remember mango man asked my mother if wasfare was bugles in the morning to enter battlefield and bugles in the evening to retire for night!!!
The mango man in India has no strategic vision for country leave alone Sea Gripen. Forget mango man. Some retired services officers are worse than mango man!!!
We have an an inflated sense of mango man!!!


Well, Sir, mango man does not think or want to think about all these issues for many reasons, hence its important to make things interesting and simple. He simply consider whatever peddled on NDTV or in TOI as correct or whatever said by AF officers as gospel truth and the sad truth in India is the narrative is not controlled by the right people. LCA is considered big failure by almost everyone who know about LCA, (even by some very experienced Aerospace engineers who have spend decades working in the industry barely a few km away from where LCA was born and brought up), bar a select few who bothered to look beyond the propaganda and prejudices or who have close experience with it. Perception matters. Its not only about feeling proud about what our Nation can make but also supporting or demanding government in investing money for such programs. A lot can be said and written but ultimately the perception filters to multiple levels. It becomes difficult to even attract good talent to work for such programs. The same perception lingers in the minds of AF officers, IAS babus and politicians one way or the other who decide the fate of a lot of such programs in small or big ways. In some sense they are Mango men too. Not everyone comes to BRF like sites and give due thought before making their minds.

Lets not underestimate Mango man. Perception management is important. If programs like LCA cannot invigorate people's minds and garner their support and respect in our own country, whos gonna respect them outside..?


I agree with you and what I wrote was after considering what u have written.

But I have no faith in mango man after seeing many educated mango man and women...incl retired service personnel....I have first hand experience of what you speak of. I know of the LCA prog from when many here were wearing diapers..

I despair...

But then I am a cynic....a sense of doom and gloom fills me when I meet my brethren....

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 16 Nov 2018 20:30

ks_sachin wrote:
I agree with you and what I wrote was after considering what u have written.

But I have no faith in mango man after seeing many educated mango man and women...incl retired service personnel....I have first hand experience of what you speak of. I know of the LCA prog from when many here were wearing diapers..

I despair...

But then I am a cynic....a sense of doom and gloom fills me when I meet my brethren....


Perhaps the very reason why we have had such situation is because Mango Man of India was considered irrelevant as far as such matters were concerned..?

Until I was in college, I was one of those ignorant fools who used to pooh pooh LCA with friends. Imagine a bunch of supposedly supersmart eye-eye-chaiwalla Aerospace engineers who were expected to be the future work force of Indian aerospace industry LOL-ing how the pathetic SDREs can only make failed LCA and how its going to fail only while drooling over katrinas and rambhas. I got that idea from reading similar statements from AFs officers, DDM and other such seemingly credible people constantly downplaying if not deriding outright desi achievements and programs. We were Mango Indians in some sense. Had the narrative been framed keeping in perception of mango man in mind, automatically we would have had much accurate information and perception of the situation too. Took me years to turn believer and really understand that the SDREs we used to laugh at actually are doing far better job than the cyber coolies that we ended up as.

PS: Compare this to the perception ISRO receives.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2018 22:08

How about we get back to topic?
Already there is a twitter to and fro on the question of what naval plane?
IN chief Adm Lanba is saying current N-LCA wont do and In will work with ADA and HAL for the next generation.
Meantime he has a force to equip.

i think the big gap is the lack of good quality engine is handicapping the whole quest.

Either put up the money and develop the Kaveri or let SAFRAN or GE set up an engine factory in India.
I would like India to make a bid for GE engine division to test out DT.
Mig 29s are maintenance heavy.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Nov 2018 23:25

Mk1a should satisfy IN first prior to IAF. That will put a lot of gaps opaque.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 17 Nov 2018 00:45

JayS wrote:
Until I was in college, I was one of those ignorant fools who used to pooh pooh LCA with friends. Imagine a bunch of supposedly supersmart eye-eye-chaiwalla Aerospace engineers who were expected to be the future work force of Indian aerospace industry LOL-ing how the pathetic SDREs can only make failed LCA and how its going to fail only while drooling over katrinas and rambhas. I got that idea from reading similar statements from AFs officers, DDM and other such seemingly credible people constantly downplaying if not deriding outright desi achievements and programs. We were Mango Indians in some sense. Had the narrative been framed keeping in perception of mango man in mind, automatically we would have had much accurate information and perception of the situation too. Took me years to turn believer and really understand that the SDREs we used to laugh at actually are doing far better job than the cyber coolies that we ended up as.

PS: Compare this to the perception ISRO receives.


Amen to that!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Nov 2018 01:44

Jay,

I remember an aero eye eye chai prof start his course ridiculing how ADA scientist did not have the confidence to retract the LG on the first flight of LCA to the guffaw in class. It will stay with me for the rest of my life. Meanwhile, in a nearby lab, another prof and his grad students labored on Maggi to produce significant part of CLAW.

Sorry Ramana garu,
I had to share this pain of mine. Very deep-sitted.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Nov 2018 01:54

Thanks for sharing! Now get back there and give a lecture on how we need to believe in ourselves! #WeCanDoIt!

Indranil
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Nov 2018 02:09

Oh! I have given that lecture :D Uninvited!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 17 Nov 2018 02:18

:) Mission accomplished! #Indranilfor-BR-Ratna :)

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 17 Nov 2018 02:20

+108 to that!!!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby nam » 17 Nov 2018 02:25

When people say LCA is delayed and failed, I always say this
Rafale first flight to IOC: 15 years
LCA first flight to IOC: 15 years,

First time FBW Claw with 100% safety record.

Show me another country who has done this.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 17 Nov 2018 02:59

believing and confidence is different from risks and SOPS. just saying

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Nov 2018 03:09

Okay. Let's stop this before Ramana garu zaps all of us.

Cain Marko
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Nov 2018 07:44

Regarding the sea gripen. It will be evaluated and found wanting, nothing wrong in taking a dekko at different bird to get ideas....

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 17 Nov 2018 11:23

CM,

I will say this. The Swedes have problems that they don’t even know they have. Ask any design bureau which has converted a land based fighter to a carrier based one. Everybody, bar none, found out that they essentially had a completely new aircraft. Rafale and SF went the other way and found it much more easy.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Nov 2018 11:42

Very true. Naval aircarft have to be designed from clean sheet.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Nov 2018 13:48

Cain Marko wrote:Regarding the sea gripen. It will be evaluated and found wanting, nothing wrong in taking a dekko at different bird to get ideas....

What if its not?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 17 Nov 2018 18:01

Cain Marko wrote:Regarding the sea gripen. It will be evaluated and found wanting, nothing wrong in taking a dekko at different bird to get ideas....


Ideas..? From a plane which doesnt exist..? And from a company which has no demonstrated technical capability..? We have all the known experts in Naval aviation already in the fray. SAAB looks out of place. Accepted, that its no cost no commitment basis and we have nothing to lose to let them waste their money, but them why not let NLCA MK2 to compete as well..? Letting ADA compete, will motivate them, and perhaps this may result in improved MK2 version too. IMO keeping NLCA MK2 out and letting paper NGripen come in, give unnecessary negative publicity to our plane.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Nov 2018 12:51

Navy is deeply embedded in the nlca program, they know well the current and estimated potential of the NLCA. As you say there is nothing for them to lose.WRT ideas, why not? The Gripen E development is well ahead of the LCA mk2, a deeper look into it's capabilities and design might not hurt...

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Nov 2018 12:57

ks_sachin wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Regarding the sea gripen. It will be evaluated and found wanting, nothing wrong in taking a dekko at different bird to get ideas....

What if its not?

Very very unlikely. If the IAF found a Gripen in a more advanced stage of development inadequate for non stobar ops, I doubt the paper sea Gripen is suddenly going to be attractive to the Navy, not when twin engined powerhouses in a far more ready state are available.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Nov 2018 12:59

Indranil wrote:CM,

I will say this. The Swedes have problems that they don’t even know they have. Ask any design bureau which has converted a land based fighter to a carrier based one. Everybody, bar none, found out that they essentially had a completely new aircraft. Rafale and SF went the other way and found it much more easy.


ramana wrote:Very true. Naval aircarft have to be designed from clean sheet.


No doubt. Which is why I always felt that the NLCA 2 should have been AMCA 1.0.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Nov 2018 13:11

JayS wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Regarding the sea gripen. It will be evaluated and found wanting, nothing wrong in taking a dekko at different bird to get ideas....


Ideas..? From a plane which doesnt exist..? And from a company which has no demonstrated technical capability..? We have all the known experts in Naval aviation already in the fray. SAAB looks out of place. Accepted, that its no cost no commitment basis and we have nothing to lose to let them waste their money, but them why not let NLCA MK2 to compete as well..? Letting ADA compete, will motivate them, and perhaps this may result in improved MK2 version too. IMO keeping NLCA MK2 out and letting paper NGripen come in, give unnecessary negative publicity to our plane.


The NLCA is a very different beast.

Why not start with a clean slate??

Just look at how the russkies messed up the 29K.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 19 Nov 2018 13:30

chetak wrote:The NLCA is a very different beast.

Why not start with a clean slate??


That will be NLCA-Mk2 w/ F-414 engines.

I have already stated my opinion that LCA-Mk2 should have been a derivative of NLCA-Mk2.

And further design of NLCA-Mk2 should have been branched off immediately after IN indicated that it will not be an long-term operative choice., with the design not frozen until NLCA-Mk1 completes at least 100 take-off/landing on deck day/night sorties.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 19 Nov 2018 13:41

ramana wrote:Kartik and Disha it might not be the IN choice at all but added to satisfy the MoD arcane rules of single vendor situation.


This might sound strange, but the MoD (and several of India's political parties) behave as if fighter aircrafts are tomatoes and potatoes where vendors will compete to give you the standard tomato at the lowest price. Mewlawds think it even worse. They want to think that the price list w/ options are printed on to the aircraft just like one walks into a car show room.

In case of Naval fighter aircrafts, there are technically only two choices - SHornet and Rafale. F-35 will be too costly for us. Eurofighter Typhoon is as much a paper plane as Sea Gripen. India already bankrolled twin-engine Mig 29k.

Given such a situation, all IN has to do is call for 'twin-engined' fighter aircrafts and allow paper euro fighter and rule out sea-gripen.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 19 Nov 2018 14:04

disha wrote:
chetak wrote:The NLCA is a very different beast.

Why not start with a clean slate??


That will be NLCA-Mk2 w/ F-414 engines.

I have already stated my opinion that LCA-Mk2 should have been a derivative of NLCA-Mk2.

And further design of NLCA-Mk2 should have been branched off immediately after IN indicated that it will not be an long-term operative choice., with the design not frozen until NLCA-Mk1 completes at least 100 take-off/landing on deck day/night sorties.


Engines can be from anywhere.

I meant the design criteria and customer requirements as well as the ability to
sustain and operate regularly from the deck within the guidelines accepted for such operations, something that the 29K has been unable to do.

An old bird in a new dress is not going to cut much ice.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby disha » 19 Nov 2018 14:12

^NLCA Mk-2 is 'not' old bird in new dress!! Just because it has wings and a rudder and a landing care and a quartz nose cone and a single engine, it does not mean it is a old bird in a new dress.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Nov 2018 14:40

chetak wrote:
JayS wrote:
Ideas..? From a plane which doesnt exist..? And from a company which has no demonstrated technical capability..? We have all the known experts in Naval aviation already in the fray. SAAB looks out of place. Accepted, that its no cost no commitment basis and we have nothing to lose to let them waste their money, but them why not let NLCA MK2 to compete as well..? Letting ADA compete, will motivate them, and perhaps this may result in improved MK2 version too. IMO keeping NLCA MK2 out and letting paper NGripen come in, give unnecessary negative publicity to our plane.


The NLCA is a very different beast.

Why not start with a clean slate??

Just look at how the russkies messed up the 29K.


I am pretty sure you will agree with me when I say, NLCA is going to be basically "Capability Demonstrator" for India - that we can build, operationalize, operate and maintain completely desi fighter for Naval Aviation. Its the base of the future for IN, rather than the future itself. The clean sheet design you suggest is/should be NAMCA - its of right size, twin engine and futuristic. Unfortunately IN has been dragging its legs on this one it seems from the ADA annual report. IN had a chance to make AMCA a clean sheet Naval Aircraft, ADA already understands well enough the importance of building Naval plane first and then a AF version. But due to delayed SQRs from IN (I am not sure if IN has still issued SQR for NAMCA, I do not remember seeing credible source mentioning this, wish ADA has released follow on Annual report), AMCA again became IAF project to start with as IAF's SQR were fixed before and AMCA project went for FSED approval with only ASQR at hand. I still want to hope and believe, AMCA project has scope left to be a Naval aircraft first. I would be deeply disappointed if it hasn't. We would have failed as a Nation in implementing one of the biggest lessons we learnt from LCA.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 19 Nov 2018 14:48

disha wrote:
ramana wrote:Kartik and Disha it might not be the IN choice at all but added to satisfy the MoD arcane rules of single vendor situation.


This might sound strange, but the MoD (and several of India's political parties) behave as if fighter aircrafts are tomatoes and potatoes where vendors will compete to give you the standard tomato at the lowest price. Mewlawds think it even worse. They want to think that the price list w/ options are printed on to the aircraft just like one walks into a car show room.

In case of Naval fighter aircrafts, there are technically only two choices - SHornet and Rafale. F-35 will be too costly for us. Eurofighter Typhoon is as much a paper plane as Sea Gripen. India already bankrolled twin-engine Mig 29k.

Given such a situation, all IN has to do is call for 'twin-engined' fighter aircrafts and allow paper euro fighter and rule out sea-gripen.


We just saw "no of engine" restrictions removed from Single Engine Fighter tender and it being converted into another MMRCA tamasha. You think MoD babus would put restrictions on IN's tender..? At least I think not. But then they could have put a restriction like "existing plane" or "demonstrable capability by 2020" and so on to eliminate trolling by SAAB. Tenders are tailor-made for pre-selected candidates all the time. Its common practice even in private sector in A&D world over. If there was will there were many ways available. Competent desi companies are routinely shunned by such "tailoring" of tenders all the time. I cannot accept that it was inevitable to eliminate SAAB. We can argue whether its IN or MoD which should be held responsible. But someone is for sure.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 19 Nov 2018 14:54

Cybaru wrote:Thanks for sharing! Now get back there and give a lecture on how we need to believe in ourselves! #WeCanDoIt!


around your can do it attitude.

Its akin to an animal being born in a zoo to parents whose parents were born in the zoo.
How would you ever understand that you can hunt our own and form your own tribe and have a family and rule your kingdom.
You can't ... for a long long time.

We have been bred to believe that our stuff is C grade and Phoren is A Class. Wah Bhai Wah ... Phoren ka maal is A1.
It will take a long time to get out of that pysche.

The Chinese too face the same challenge but from outside.
Its the Chinese stuff that is considered to be B grade and japanese A1 in terms of cars, for example.
However slowly they are coming in via 4X4s and secondary domestic vehicles.

Similarly we must keep on nibbling away at the edge cases and small opportunities till we whale them out.


We must have that NLCA available .... the Govt must Gift 4 NLCAs Mk1 to the Navy for trials and for non-combat missions.


Its better to be on the battlefield with 8, rather than missing with 8 thousand !!

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2345
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 19 Nov 2018 15:30

IN would have known well in advance of funding and supporting NLCA development that it'll not suit it's requirements. But it still decided to use the opportunity to develop relevant tech in-house. So, I don't understand why Admiral keeps harping on it being not suitable for IN's requirements. He could just say that it was always intended to gain institutional knowledge about relevant tech so that in future other aircraft can be developed that are suited to it's requirements. These are both true but completely different messages for developers and common public.


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