Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Khalsa
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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 20 Nov 2018 01:47

The good admiral is doing what he must do, first.
A battle ready Naval Force capable of defending Bay of Bengal from China BhaiJaan and annihilating the PN in Arabian Sea.
Everything else is secondary.

We as a nation need to ensure that we too must do what needs to be done first.

Those two aims don't need to necessary collide but they don't always align either.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby souravB » 04 Dec 2018 01:21

X-posting from Naval Aviation thread

Seems like Navy coming to gripe with the reality too. According to LiveFist
“The case for the second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier has received the necessary impetus. Though it is at least a decade away, the Aircraft Carrier project would accrue signficant national gains in terms of boosting indigenisation and the country’s economy, through its life cycle of construction, maintenance and upgradation. We are looking at ways and means to incorporate the immense potential of Academia, private industry and DRDO into the Project. Spread over period of ten years, the expenditure would not only be feasible, but would also be ploughed back into our own economy. We are also hopeful that naval version of LCA produced by HAL would fly from its deck,” Admiral Sunil Lanba said this morning.

the navy’s decision to specifically mention the LCA in the contest of the IAC-2 aircraft carrier suggests that certain alignments could be afoot towards the higher powered LCA Navy Mk.2

Cheers?

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 04 Dec 2018 04:43

Indranil wrote:Jay,

I remember an aero eye eye chai prof start his course ridiculing how ADA scientist did not have the confidence to retract the LG on the first flight of LCA to the guffaw in class. It will stay with me for the rest of my life. Meanwhile, in a nearby lab, another prof and his grad students labored on Maggi to produce significant part of CLAW.

Sorry Ramana garu,
I had to share this pain of mine. Very deep-sitted.


Just a point. A LCA TP who referred to the LCA as khadi gramudyog has now been one of the most ardent supporters of the program and gone on to defend many other key indigenous programs. People change their perceptions when they see reality. Have faith.

On another note, I used to be mocked and ridiculed by oh-so-erudite folks who used to throw their weight around when I pointed out Indian MIC would begin delivering. I gave back as good as I got and was allowed to post on BR by far wiser admins who tacitly and overtly supported indigenization. Now, we have a host of indian made items entering service. Some of those guys ended up changing their opinions and others disappeared. But now a whole host of youngsters are busy filling the net with pictures of locally made gear and taking forward our aims to the next level.

The work that you do in supporting these programs matters. Every time even IDRW or anyone copies you, or anyone visits BRF to see what indranil says about the LCA flight progress, you have made a tangible contribution. Keep fighting the good fight.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 04 Dec 2018 04:49

chetak wrote:
JayS wrote:
Ideas..? From a plane which doesnt exist..? And from a company which has no demonstrated technical capability..? We have all the known experts in Naval aviation already in the fray. SAAB looks out of place. Accepted, that its no cost no commitment basis and we have nothing to lose to let them waste their money, but them why not let NLCA MK2 to compete as well..? Letting ADA compete, will motivate them, and perhaps this may result in improved MK2 version too. IMO keeping NLCA MK2 out and letting paper NGripen come in, give unnecessary negative publicity to our plane.


The NLCA is a very different beast.

Why not start with a clean slate??

Just look at how the russkies messed up the 29K.


Let me say this. There may nothing fundamentally wrong with the MiG-29K apart from the fact it has not been tested and debugged before the sale to India. Its simply not ruggedized enough, its structure, its avionics, its engines - all need extensive testing and debugging for high-G, high-impact carrier ops. And the Russkies didnt have the money, so they fibbed and sold us a half tested product. Given enough TLC, the MiG-29K could be very potent and it may still deliver in IAF service.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 04 Dec 2018 10:45

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:
The NLCA is a very different beast.

Why not start with a clean slate??

Just look at how the russkies messed up the 29K.


Let me say this. There may nothing fundamentally wrong with the MiG-29K apart from the fact it has not been tested and debugged before the sale to India. Its simply not ruggedized enough, its structure, its avionics, its engines - all need extensive testing and debugging for high-G, high-impact carrier ops. And the Russkies didnt have the money, so they fibbed and sold us a half tested product. Given enough TLC, the MiG-29K could be very potent and it may still deliver in IAF service.


Ergo, a new aircraft.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 04 Dec 2018 11:09

chetak wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Let me say this. There may nothing fundamentally wrong with the MiG-29K apart from the fact it has not been tested and debugged before the sale to India. Its simply not ruggedized enough, its structure, its avionics, its engines - all need extensive testing and debugging for high-G, high-impact carrier ops. And the Russkies didnt have the money, so they fibbed and sold us a half tested product. Given enough TLC, the MiG-29K could be very potent and it may still deliver in IAF service.


Ergo, a new aircraft.



Sounds like it. We funded the production of the 29K through our initial buy. This is not a finished product and until we made that initial order the Russians flew SU-33s onlee as their carrier fighter.

If the Kutz is dead in the water now that their main dock for it had sunk then I see no incentive for the Russians to fix the the 29K on their own. We might need to pay again to fix something we paid to productionize. At that point, it would be far better to put those resources on the NLCA and soldier on best we could with the MiGs.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Dec 2018 12:14

I say they just buy out the fulcrum design with full tooling, and ipr. Switch the engines plus radar and use the bird for mrca and Navy needs. Ideally kaveri and uttam in commonality to a mass produced LCA. The design hAS potential but yes debugging will be needed.a run of 200 units between the two services.

Will prolly be a lot cheaper than say 57 shornets and 126 of whatever Western filly that's being evaluated.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 04 Dec 2018 12:55

Cain Marko wrote:I say they just buy out the fulcrum design with full tooling, and ipr. Switch the engines plus radar and use the bird for mrca and Navy needs. Ideally kaveri and uttam in commonality to a mass produced LCA. The design hAS potential but yes debugging will be needed.a run of 200 units between the two services.

Will prolly be a lot cheaper than say 57 shornets and 126 of whatever Western filly that's being evaluated.


All this assumes that the Ruski's are willing to let go of the design, tooling and IPR. Big IF on that.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 04 Dec 2018 13:02

The shortest path is NLCA 》NAMCA. IN needs to decide on one thing and make it happen. Diverting its limited resourced on multiple fronts is gonna be like "too many cooks......" kind of situation. IN doesnt seem to be learning from experience of MiG29K and again running after paper planes like Sea Gripen or jugad RafaleM or F/A18s force fitted to IN's problem. They already wasted 2yrs on NLCA for no good reason. NLCA should have been flying off Vik by now (flight tests, not operational). They are late on grabbing the opportunity to make AMCA a naval plane to boot. When it comes to such big things, there are no right decisions, you take one and make it right. IN needs to seriously make up its mind and act on it. As of now the way things are going, to me, IN will end up in same situation with AMCA as they are with NLCA.

PS - Its Navy Day today.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 05 Dec 2018 01:10

IN knows what it is doing. Other than the small hiccup. It knows that NLCA is a must to get to NAMCA. We just do not know how to develop a naval fighter. We are learning. And there is no other way of learning without doing. For us, there is no other way but through NLCA. It will take us 15-20 years to get to a NAMCA. Keep an eye on the final target.

Hats off to the Indian Navy!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 05 Dec 2018 01:35

Chetak sir,

If we start from a completely clean slate, it will take us 25 years to field an aircraft (anything less, and we will be kidding ourselves). Besides who will fund this development? We are speaking of 10s of billions. Will MoD approve it? After 15 years of begging, MoD started releasing a modicum of funds for AMCA from this year. Can we keep waiting? Or should we start learning with what we have. Every lesson in developing and testing the NLCA will be used for NLCA Mk2. every lesson on LCA Navy Mk2 will be useful for NAMCA. That is what ADA and IN are doing. And it is the ONLY pragmatic path forward IMHO.

Karan,
Thanks for the kind words. It will be great if we can foster pride in the Indian youth for science and tech emanating from India.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 05 Dec 2018 09:12

Indranil wrote:Chetak sir,

If we start from a completely clean slate, it will take us 25 years to field an aircraft (anything less, and we will be kidding ourselves). Besides who will fund this development? We are speaking of 10s of billions. Will MoD approve it? After 15 years of begging, MoD started releasing a modicum of funds for AMCA from this year. Can we keep waiting? Or should we start learning with what we have. Every lesson in developing and testing the NLCA will be used for NLCA Mk2. every lesson on LCA Navy Mk2 will be useful for NAMCA. That is what ADA and IN are doing. And it is the ONLY pragmatic path forward IMHO.

Karan,
Thanks for the kind words. It will be great if we can foster pride in the Indian youth for science and tech emanating from India.


Indranil saar,

Only suggesting that we use the lessons learned so far to strike a new course.

It may be more beneficial for us to do this rather than continue force fitted into a set, blinkered and weary meandering path.

We have basically tried to adapt a purpose built non carrier aircraft when in reality many of the requirements and design assumptions/mandates may not apply, especially when seen in the light of pre existing parts and the use of pre existing manufacturing facilities.

This NLCA is not only a new bird, but it is also of a very different species.

Requirements may be captured anew and compared in an unbiased manner to those on which the NLCA mandate may be presently progressing, including the wisidom of adapting many already existing components/subassemblies.

There is a world of difference in adapting and de novo efforts. Many of the existing constraints may be eliminated/minimized. A shorter path may well emerge.

The "wrongs" are more clearly known now and hopefully, the recorded lessons learned can be leveraged more innovatively.

If the same team is deployed on both versions, it may not be so advantageous for us. Mistakes (if any) will remain buried because of human nature.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 09:58

chetak wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Let me say this. There may nothing fundamentally wrong with the MiG-29K apart from the fact it has not been tested and debugged before the sale to India. Its simply not ruggedized enough, its structure, its avionics, its engines - all need extensive testing and debugging for high-G, high-impact carrier ops. And the Russkies didnt have the money, so they fibbed and sold us a half tested product. Given enough TLC, the MiG-29K could be very potent and it may still deliver in IAF service.


Ergo, a new aircraft.


Not necessarily. A new aircraft would mean a completely new design. In the INs case, they may need selective upgrades and ruggedization of specific items which have the highest failure rates and cant bear the stress of carrier landing.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2018 09:59

The IN is currently asking Indian industry, including DRDO and partners, to revamp some of the MiG-29K subsystems for better reliability.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 05 Dec 2018 21:47

Chetak ji,

Sab paison ka khel hai. Paisa nahi hai humare scientist/designers ke liye. Toh bas aise hi chal raha hai!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 06 Dec 2018 00:37

Karan M wrote:
Indranil wrote:Jay,

I remember an aero eye eye chai prof start his course ridiculing how ADA scientist did not have the confidence to retract the LG on the first flight of LCA to the guffaw in class. It will stay with me for the rest of my life. Meanwhile, in a nearby lab, another prof and his grad students labored on Maggi to produce significant part of CLAW.

Sorry Ramana garu,
I had to share this pain of mine. Very deep-sitted.


Just a point. A LCA TP who referred to the LCA as khadi gramudyog has now been one of the most ardent supporters of the program and gone on to defend many other key indigenous programs. People change their perceptions when they see reality. Have faith.

On another note, I used to be mocked and ridiculed by oh-so-erudite folks who used to throw their weight around when I pointed out Indian MIC would begin delivering. I gave back as good as I got and was allowed to post on BR by far wiser admins who tacitly and overtly supported indigenization. Now, we have a host of indian made items entering service. Some of those guys ended up changing their opinions and others disappeared. But now a whole host of youngsters are busy filling the net with pictures of locally made gear and taking forward our aims to the next level.

The work that you do in supporting these programs matters. Every time even IDRW or anyone copies you, or anyone visits BRF to see what indranil says about the LCA flight progress, you have made a tangible contribution. Keep fighting the good fight.

as an aside, just a couple of hours had a call from a BRFite (also an eye eye tee prof) who doesn't post much nowadays. he was enquiring about how BR is doing nowadays, I made a special mention of Indranil's contributions.
rest assured many young un's are reading these pages even though they may not always get to mention it.

I remember myself as a starry eyed enthusiast getting inspired by the posts of nitin. :)

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2018 04:47

Even old uns still read these pages.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Dec 2018 10:34

pushkar.bhat wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I say they just buy out the fulcrum design with full tooling, and ipr. Switch the engines plus radar and use the bird for mrca and Navy needs. Ideally kaveri and uttam in commonality to a mass produced LCA. The design hAS potential but yes debugging will be needed.a run of 200 units between the two services.

Will prolly be a lot cheaper than say 57 shornets and 126 of whatever Western filly that's being evaluated.


All this assumes that the Ruski's are willing to let go of the design, tooling and IPR. Big IF on that.


I think they'll be open to a lot right now if India opens the purse strings a bit. They are hurting badly and now is a good time to get tech from them.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Vips » 06 Dec 2018 18:00

Rahul M wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Just a point. A LCA TP who referred to the LCA as khadi gramudyog has now been one of the most ardent supporters of the program and gone on to defend many other key indigenous programs. People change their perceptions when they see reality. Have faith.

On another note, I used to be mocked and ridiculed by oh-so-erudite folks who used to throw their weight around when I pointed out Indian MIC would begin delivering. I gave back as good as I got and was allowed to post on BR by far wiser admins who tacitly and overtly supported indigenization. Now, we have a host of indian made items entering service. Some of those guys ended up changing their opinions and others disappeared. But now a whole host of youngsters are busy filling the net with pictures of locally made gear and taking forward our aims to the next level.

The work that you do in supporting these programs matters. Every time even IDRW or anyone copies you, or anyone visits BRF to see what indranil says about the LCA flight progress, you have made a tangible contribution. Keep fighting the good fight.

as an aside, just a couple of hours had a call from a BRFite (also an eye eye tee prof) who doesn't post much nowadays. he was enquiring about how BR is doing nowadays, I made a special mention of Indranil's contributions.
rest assured many young un's are reading these pages even though they may not always get to mention it.

I remember myself as a starry eyed enthusiast getting inspired by the posts of nitin. :)


I hope Nitinji wherever he is starts posting again.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 06 Dec 2018 23:25

What tells you that he isn't already? :wink:

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby gaurav.p » 03 Jan 2019 01:02

SJha posted this great news.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1080408813918801920
ADA says NP-1 & NP-2 LCA-Navy demonstrators are heading towards carrier trials from a ski-jump (STOBAR) carrier, which in our case is the INS Vikramaditya. Take-off with full-fuel and two R-73 AAMs has been demonstrated. ADA says that landings with 10 tonne plus all-up weight has also been achieved.


https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1080405213322797056
According to ADA some 18 ski-jump take-offs have been done by the LCA-Navy demonstrators at the Shore Based Test Facility in Goa till date. Two of them at night. LCA-Navy is apparently ready to perform take-off tests from the INS Vikramaditya. More than 200 approach touchdowns have been done at the SBTF. 18 'bolter' touchdowns have also been done. From touchdown to take-off in just 125 metres.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 01:36

Amazing news! thanks for the links gaurav.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby souravB » 03 Jan 2019 04:47

X-posting from Aero India thread
The full Webinar on LCA Navy CLAW


This is a treasure trove of information which shows the progress SDREs have made in carrier borne aircrafts.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2019 10:22

Some of these, I knew. For others, I went wow!

NOBODY will give us these know-whys. LCA-Navy is the only way forward.I can tell you that the LCA Navy test team is bouyed by recent successes.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby chola » 03 Jan 2019 10:29

Indranil wrote:Some of these, I knew. For others, I went wow!

NOBODY will give us these know-whys. LCA-Navy is the only way forward.I can tell you that the LCA Navy test team is bouyed by recent successes.


We have more of these know-whys than some of the goras we are buying from to be perfectly honest.

I will trust the N-LCA to be better navalized than the MiG-29K.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby gaurav.p » 03 Jan 2019 10:42

The lucidity of info + usage of graphs in the presentation is amazing. Even a complete noob like me could comprehend the facts and understand the problems solved by CLAW.

All it requires is the political will and patience. Gurus have made ISRO et all a success today, same can be done for the LCA. Just keep improving!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2019 10:55

A single engine small fighter like Tejas would have serious limitations on IN aircraft carrier fleet of no more than 1 today , 2 by 2023 and 3 by mid 2030's , With small fleet they would need a big medium size aircraft like Rafale.

IN AC as a thumb rule operated 60 % Choppers and 40 % aircraft , so if one does the math they wont carry more than 16-20 aircraft per carrier , Virrat used to carry 12 SHAR I was told.

N Tejas can be deployed for operational testing to gather data and experience but as a primary aircraft on AC it is very doubtful , There are things like Payload , Combat Radius , Fuel , Bring back capability , twin engine offer increased margin of safety etc would matter in real combat.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby John » 03 Jan 2019 11:16

^ Why do we keep discussing Rafale for Vikrant and Vikram, Rafale will not fit in lift of either carrier and even if we sort that out Dassault will require IN funding for Ski jump operations certification. So all said and done just fielding a squadron of Rafale will cost over 6 billion IMO...

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jan 2019 11:25

John wrote:^ Why do we keep discussing Rafale for Vikrant and Vikram, Rafale will not fit in lift of either carrier and even if we sort that out Dassault will require IN funding for Ski jump operations certification. So all said and done just fielding a squadron of Rafale will cost over 6 billion IMO...


We really dont know what comes out of RFI because the new carrier wont come before 2035 , So there must be a way to fly the Rafale or F-18 from Virkam and Vikrant if IN is coming up with RFI /RFP

AeroIndia could provide some answers

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 03 Jan 2019 11:35

They talked about the levcons working during takeoffs and landing and how these have aided maneuverability in other flight regimes.. little wonder then that canards are being looked at for the mk2.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2019 12:33

It gives better stability and lower L/D at higher AoA. So it would aid in better sustained turn rates.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 03 Jan 2019 13:40

Indranil wrote:It gives better stability and lower L/D at higher AoA. So it would aid in better sustained turn rates.


correction - higher L/D at trim AoA in turning which would that would help in better STR. This is for +20deg deflection.

For landing its -30deg deflection which I expect lowers the L/D somewhat (but minor change perhaps), but importantly it increases L at the required trim AoA. Since its landing, any increase in drag is not an issue. The landing trim AoA we are talking about it in the range of 12-14deg I estimate, which is moderate. This augments the gain in L on account of increase in AoA due to additional nose drooping.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby Indranil » 03 Jan 2019 15:17

Correct. Thanks for the correction.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jan 2019 17:23

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:It gives better stability and lower L/D at higher AoA. So it would aid in better sustained turn rates.


correction - higher L/D at trim AoA in turning which would that would help in better STR. This is for +20deg deflection.

For landing its -30deg deflection which I expect lowers the L/D somewhat (but minor change perhaps), but importantly it increases L at the required trim AoA. Since its landing, any increase in drag is not an issue. The landing trim AoA we are talking about it in the range of 12-14deg I estimate, which is moderate. This augments the gain in L on account of increase in AoA due to additional nose drooping.

In English please....

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby JayS » 03 Jan 2019 17:41

ks_sachin wrote:
JayS wrote:
correction - higher L/D at trim AoA in turning which would that would help in better STR. This is for +20deg deflection.

For landing its -30deg deflection which I expect lowers the L/D somewhat (but minor change perhaps), but importantly it increases L at the required trim AoA. Since its landing, any increase in drag is not an issue. The landing trim AoA we are talking about it in the range of 12-14deg I estimate, which is moderate. This augments the gain in L on account of increase in AoA due to additional nose drooping.

In English please....

Saar, please see the webinar, linked above. it has above thing quite well explained.

Long time back we discussed a lot about working of LEVCON, may be 4-5yrs ago. All that must be there in LCA thread.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jan 2019 18:13

Ouch!

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby John » 03 Jan 2019 18:32

Austin wrote:
John wrote:^ Why do we keep discussing Rafale for Vikrant and Vikram, Rafale will not fit in lift of either carrier and even if we sort that out Dassault will require IN funding for Ski jump operations certification. So all said and done just fielding a squadron of Rafale will cost over 6 billion IMO...


We really dont know what comes out of RFI because the new carrier wont come before 2035 , So there must be a way to fly the Rafale or F-18 from Virkam and Vikrant if IN is coming up with RFI /RFP

AeroIndia could provide some answers


F-18E can fit just fine in the lifts but I believe RFI is just to explore other options and likely to get axed in couple of years as navy looks at 5th Gen AC for IAC-2.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby souravB » 03 Jan 2019 18:59

Indranil wrote:Some of these, I knew. For others, I went wow!

NOBODY will give us these know-whys. LCA-Navy is the only way forward.I can tell you that the LCA Navy test team is bouyed by recent successes.

Sir, I was thinking while watching the them explain the CLAWs, this has so much of applications. The stick free take-off and landing will take us to UCAV/AEW operations from deck. Also with minimal changes these CLAWs can be adapted for CATOBAR operations.
And I was especially intrigued when they said they used PID controllers. Creating the simulations that correctly take the increment steps for each conditions is a time consuming and once done correctly a fruitful process.

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Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby nam » 03 Jan 2019 19:08

DRDO should carry out more such webinars regularly. It truly show the R&D that is been carried out and helps lot of next gen in unis and organisation, to understand how such niche tech is actually developed.

I doubt any other organisation has put out such details on building Control Laws for carrier jets. It also gives out a positive picture of ourself to the outside world.

Of course helps internet warriors in forum wars!

Moreover it tell us the kind of capability that is been put in place. Compare this to Joker Fighter 17, for all the claim about fast induction, it's pilot will be busy trying to keep the jet in air, while LCA pilot will be busy running through his tactics than worry about flying the jet!

Fundamentally LCA will have two pilots. One flying the plane, another one fighting!

souravB
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Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Naval LCA - News and Discussion

Postby souravB » 03 Jan 2019 19:10

John wrote:
F-18E can fit just fine in the lifts but I believe RFI is just to explore other options and likely to get axed in couple of years as navy looks at 5th Gen AC for IAC-2.

+1
IN is in process of acquiring 4 LHD/Amphibious Assault Ships. They very well can be going the route of Japan and put a few F-35Bs on them. If that happens then it makes more sense to just order some Cs for IAC2.


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