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Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 30 Jul 2017 02:49

For those who like airplane cut away pics here is HF-24 large cutaway image

HF-24 Cutaway picture

Abhibhushan saar, and Shiv:

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Aug 2017 14:02

There was video on brf showing a tug pulling aircraft carrier kuznetzov.

Has there been any example of underwater tugs for submarines? As ssk ranges are short, I was thinking to use underwater tugs pulling Scorpene subs to Indo-China Pacific ON THE LINES OF OUR OSA MISSILE BOATS TUGGED TO KARACHI HARBOUR DUE TO THEIR SHORT RANGE.

Vinay_GR
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Vinay_GR » 22 Aug 2017 03:16

Hi all
My Name is vinay .Been a lurker for more than 8 years finally got my membership , looking for more knowledge . Nice to meet you all

Vinay_GR
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Vinay_GR » 22 Aug 2017 03:19

I also have some questions for a start

1) why/what stopping us from acquiring Antonov and merging it with HAL . there are some defunct companies in Ukraine where we can get/buy the company and have tech starting from Tank engines to Aircraft . pukis are going for oplat and the camel riders got some stake in Antonov.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 22 Aug 2017 04:32

Vinay change your handle before the gods do it.

Nothing to stop us doing anything. When there is a vision things can happen. Where is the vision. As a polity what is our vision on anything?

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Vinay_GR » 22 Aug 2017 19:36

Hi sachin

Can you please guide me how can I change my handle not able to find anything in settings.

Thank you

Karthik S
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Karthik S » 22 Aug 2017 20:07

INFO_VIN wrote:Hi sachin

Can you please guide me how can I change my handle not able to find anything in settings.

Thank you


Vinay, only mods can change your name, ask for the same in forum feedback thread.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby JayS » 22 Aug 2017 23:50

INFO_VIN wrote:I also have some questions for a start

1) why/what stopping us from acquiring Antonov and merging it with HAL . there are some defunct companies in Ukraine where we can get/buy the company and have tech starting from Tank engines to Aircraft . pukis are going for oplat and the camel riders got some stake in Antonov.


Lack of any vision or policy in that direction.

I am not sure how good an idea it is to invest in Ukraine given its unstable situation. And how much is really left now post USSR collapse. We lost that opportunity long time ago. But there are good companies, sometimes small but important, always up for grabs. Neither GOI nor Pvt industry seems to have much of a strategic thinking.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Indranil » 22 Aug 2017 23:56

INFO_VIN wrote:Hi sachin

Can you please guide me how can I change my handle not able to find anything in settings.

Thank you

Pick up a human sounding name and just post it here. I will change your username.

Vinay_GR
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Vinay_GR » 23 Aug 2017 00:19

Indranil wrote:
INFO_VIN wrote:Hi sachin

Can you please guide me how can I change my handle not able to find anything in settings.

Thank you

Pick up a human sounding name and just post it here. I will change your username.


Thank you

Please change my user name to Vinay_GR

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Rahul M » 23 Aug 2017 10:23

done.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Vinay_GR » 23 Aug 2017 18:44

Rahul M wrote:done.

Thank you Rahul

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Rahul M » 03 Sep 2017 13:22

^^ welcome to BRF.

-------------------
meanwhile, N SItharaman is the new DefMin. I think that's good news, first woman to hold that post as well.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby sarang » 03 Sep 2017 13:45

Second, Indeera was first

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby tsarkar » 03 Sep 2017 21:32

Rahul M wrote:meanwhile, N SItharaman is the new DefMin. I think that's good news, first woman to hold that post as well.


Very good news, she is a dynamic and highly intelligent lady, whose actions speak much more than her well articulated & concise words.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 10 Sep 2017 11:29

A German discusses WWII



Why Barbarossa failed



Do watch and learn...

ramana
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2017 00:32

Two aero design sites;

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/MRsoft.html

and

Dan Raymer's
http://www.aircraftdesign.com/

He wrote the book for AIAA on conceptual design of Aircraft....

Look at this site and get inspired...

http://www.aircraftdesign.com/acpix.html

Gaur
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Gaur » 13 Sep 2017 10:58

^^
Thanks! Those designs were a joy to go through!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby wig » 08 Oct 2017 11:18

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... tions.html


this is a write up on a family which has two generations which have served/ serving the IAF.
It is a rare coincidence that four members belonging to two generations of the same family served in the Indian Air Force.

Wing Commander T.S. Reddy (retd) and his three sons retired as wing commanders. While the father participated in the 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars, the three sons took part in the Kargil War of 1999.

The family that hails from Kadapa district in Andhra Pradesh has settled in Hyderabad. He is president of the IAF Association (TS & AP).

could some guru shed light on this statement in the article

excerpt
Wg Cmdr T.S. Reddy was among the five most feared fighter controllers according to the Pak Air Force Intelligence.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 08 Oct 2017 15:15

wig wrote:could some guru shed light on this statement in the article

excerpt
Wg Cmdr T.S. Reddy was among the five most feared fighter controllers according to the Pak Air Force Intelligence.

Considering this was the 71 war, I guess it means the way WingCo Reddy Sr carried out the interceptions in his sector or routed the strike and escort packages were more effective than the others.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby shiv » 22 Nov 2017 22:39

A nice cartoon and a depiction of what a military-industrial complex was doing in the 1940s. No there is no p()rn in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF2KbmV0n1Y

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Atulya P » 29 Nov 2017 19:07

Please suggest any material or book (it would be great if its not too expensive) that would help with understanding naval warfare and tactics. How are blockades carried out etc.

x-quote

SSridhar wrote:
Atulya P wrote:Sea lane blockade is selective and need not impact SK/Japan/Asean.

That will not be possible, the selective blockade of a narrow strait.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2017 19:13

Atulya P wrote:Please suggest any material or book (it would be great if its not too expensive) that would help with understanding naval warfare and tactics. How are blockades carried out etc.

x-quote

SSridhar wrote:That will not be possible, the selective blockade of a narrow strait.


My suggestion is reading the history of naval battles - like the battles with the Bismarck and the eventual sinking of the Bismarck. The best book I have read for submarines is Foxtrots of the Indian Navy, by Commodore Franklin

Also try this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj30oQuTBDU

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby deejay » 03 Dec 2017 20:17

I am posting this video here because there is no other appropriate thread. The video is interesting given the discussions we have been having on multiple aircraft related thread and it gives a broad overview of failed concepts. Shiv ji's attention is solicited (Maybe he has seen it already).

The failures of aircraft and aircraft programmes world over provide insights into our own struggles in identifying options in IAF. Two statements stand out in the video - one in the Russian LaGG and the other on the US century series fighters which goes " The inability of the United State Air Force to conceptualize warfare outside of the Strategic ..."


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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby shiv » 03 Dec 2017 22:02

deejay wrote:I am posting this video here because there is no other appropriate thread. The video is interesting given the discussions we have been having on multiple aircraft related thread and it gives a broad overview of failed concepts. Shiv ji's attention is solicited (Maybe he has seen it already).

The failures of aircraft and aircraft programmes world over provide insights into our own struggles in identifying options in IAF. Two statements stand out in the video - one in the Russian LaGG and the other on the US century series fighters which goes " The inability of the United State Air Force to conceptualize warfare outside of the Strategic ..."

deejay I had indeed seen this video because I was compiling a list of unsafe, accident prone aircraft that the IAF flew and I was looking for specific info on the MiG 23. Worst and best are unfortunately relative terms because of the human factor in war. For us who watch wars from a distance heroism is about the man whose gun jams and he rushes with bayonet, disarms and enemy - kills a dozen and then dies. Sad but it is the human who turns a "bad weapon" into a good one.

Apart from the accident prone Gnat - I was looking at the MiG 21 and basically all the information confirms that it was and is a beautiful aircraft loved by pilots who felt that they could conquer anything in the air while in a MiG 21. This view is pretty much expressed across the board. I deliberately tried to dig into "negatives" of the MiG 21 and there are a few. Range, warload and cockpit visibility were all poor - but all this improved as it got heavier over the years. The descent rate and landing speed were very high. Early MiG 21s had a useless radar and useless missiles - but with guns it kicked ass - and could outfly anything the Pakis had and it even turned into a capable "attack aircraft" with bombs and rockets and made a difference in 1971 in the ground attack role. It was basically an "interceptor" that, like the century series designed to take out high flying bombers. But the IAF made the MiG 21 famous and helped fund the development that has made it last. The IAF lost pilots, loved it and gave feedback to the Russians who gave us newer and newer versions, while we jugaad-ed new weapons including Matra Magic

The Gnat was not a great aircraft until the IAF made it great. Again the qualities of the Gnat that made it great were fantastic climb rate, stealth from small size, small turning radius. Bad points were that it was accident prone, short range, and guns that jammed. Again the IAF lost pilots but made it great. India once again did "jugaad" and improved the safety and load carrying capacity of the Gnat - but by then it was too late.

The Hunter was an aircraft that was deeply loved by anyone who flew it. It was not unsafe or accident prone and it was a "surprise trump card" in war as it could best the Sabre because of climb rate . The Sabre could out turn it, so pilots turned air combat into "climbing battles" rather than "turning ones"

I am among a generation that was around and aware enough to see the '65, '71 and 99 wars. Canberras had range, a reasonable warload and night flying capability. They were also fairly agile. But they never achieved the fame and glory of the Gnat, MiG 21 and Hunter? Why did Gnats, Hunters and MiG 21s become legendary while Mysteres, HF 24s, Vampires did not. Canberra and Su-7 were "also ran" when it came to fame. It was the battles of the Gnat, Hunter and MiG that are remembered in history, not the others excepts as bylines.

I write this because public perception eventually matters no matter how professional an Air Force (or other armed force) is. The MiG 21 gained an unfair bad reputation through the 80s and 90s - putting pressure on the IAF, while the Mirage 2000 gained legend status after 1999. In fact I think a lot of the dogs work was done in Kargil by MiG 21s, and MiG 29 flew dissuasive combat patrols that never tickled the public imagination.

I wonder if the "image" and reputation that various aircraft acquire can be set right by at least publishing statistics of retired fighters like Vampire, Ouragan, Mystere, Su-7, Hunter, Gnat etc stating serviceability, accident rate per 10,000 flying hours, lives lost, availability for sorties during emergency situations, Maintenance time and problems, warloads delivered in wartime etc. I think MiG 21s Hunters and Gnats became popular by war stories that were romantic - shooting down aircraft, Longewala, attack on Dhaka governors bungalow etc. These things give a larger than life image of some aircraft and some pilots, But bland statistics may tell a different story. Of course the facts are locked up in IAF archives and die as old pilots pass on, and the IAF has to resist or go with public pressure and has no tools other than the truth. Public perception is not always the truth and when the IAF tells the true story - it is accused of bluffing because of public perception. The sad fact is that even younger pilots in the air force will not have access to the information unless these historic statistics are there for open scrutiny. I recently met a retired Air Marshal who has pulled 9Gs in a Sukhoi. But he knew little about Hunters or Gnats. He can't be blamed.

Doctors face a similar problem - public perception about some thing is totally off target, and only public education can help. JMT. Sorry it became such a long message

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby deejay » 03 Dec 2017 22:41

I absolutely agree with what you said, Dr Sa'ab.

I think the video is made with its title and orientation to catch public attention. Yet, it covers fighters which had runs of more than 500. In today's time, that is a big run. However, those biases of the video aside, each fighter programme narrates a story which we discuss even today.

What I understand is that there is no right balance. Each programme has to finds its own sweet spot. The success of certain aircraft over others in folklore also depends on the opportunity the type got.

There are always those who just to involved with their professional skills to gen up and find out about history and there will always be those who will know the historical context. Learning beyond a point is not organizationally controlled but self driven.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby nachiket » 04 Dec 2017 00:10

Great post Hakeem. The unfair reputation of the Mig-21s was helped along by the fact that DDM did not know how many varieties of Migs the IAF operated and every "Mig" accident got reported at least by some as a Mig-21 accident with the usual refrain of flying coffins etc. etc. Neither did they care to put the accident statistics in perspective by mentioning that the Mig-21s was by far the most numerous IAF fighter jet and was used for an entirely unsuitable role for training new pilots in the absence of a AJT. No wonder the Mig-21 got vilified.

You see all of this with the LCA too these days. DDM will mention that the LCA is "late" and even "obsolete" without providing any details or nuances or actually comparing specific capabilities with in-service IAF aircraft.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby nachiket » 04 Dec 2017 00:19

I wonder if the "image" and reputation that various aircraft acquire can be set right by at least publishing statistics of retired fighters like Vampire, Ouragan, Mystere, Su-7, Hunter, Gnat etc stating serviceability, accident rate per 10,000 flying hours, lives lost, availability for sorties during emergency situations, Maintenance time and problems, warloads delivered in wartime etc. I think MiG 21s Hunters and Gnats became popular by war stories that were romantic - shooting down aircraft, Longewala, attack on Dhaka governors bungalow etc. These things give a larger than life image of some aircraft and some pilots, But bland statistics may tell a different story.

I don't think statistics will have any effect. You are very right that the aircraft performing more attention grabbing role of shooting down enemy fighters etc. will always be more famous.

If you say Battle of Britain the aircraft which immediately comes to mind is the Spitfire. Published statistics will tell you the Hurricane was more numerous, flew more sorties and probably accounted for more bomber kills. But the Spitfire could outrun and outfight the Bf-109s. So it becomes famous. Just like the sabre-slaying Gnats. Doesn't matter how many bombs were dropped or sorties flown by Mysteres and HF-24s. It's tough not to turn the Gnat or Hunter into a legend when something like the Battle of Boyra and Alfred Cooke's dogfight over IIT Kharagpur happens right over your head. CAS and air-interdiction sorties happened far away in comparison.
Last edited by nachiket on 04 Dec 2017 16:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby shiv » 04 Dec 2017 07:16

nachiket wrote:I don't think statistics will have any effect. You are very right that the aircraft performing more attention grabbing role of shooting down enemy fighters etc. will always be more famous.

If you say Battle of Britain the aircraft which immediately comes to mind is the Spitfire. Published statistics will tell you the Hurricane was more numerous, flew more sorties and probably accounted for more bomber kills. But the Spitfire could outrun and outfight the Me-109s. So it becomes famous.

Yes but the statistics can still be used as you have done to illustrate the truth. That is why I believe it may be a good idea to make them public for retired aircraft - so military historians of the future can judge
1. Why particular aircraft were selected
2. What was their actual performance

Unless that happens everything will be based on personal opinions and impressions.

What was the rationale for selecting the Vampire? What was it like in service. Sadly - by the time it went to war it was obsolete and was shot out of the sky

What was the rationale for selecting the Ouragan and the Mystere? What were they like in service? Serviceability? Maintenance? Safety? Reliability? Spares?

The Hunter?

We have books written about the HF 24, Gnat and MiG 21 but the others remain a mystery.

For a country that has had to import a lot of aircraft and use them in combat I am sure there is a rich and detailed history of what we wanted, what we got and how they fared in war. But this information is unknown to most of us. Most of what we talk is gossip. IAF likes this. Of they must have got foreign trip for buying that.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 06 Jan 2018 02:51

The first jet fighters were the DeHavilland Vampires. These were paid from Sterling balances.
Armament was 20mm HS cannon and rockets.
Soon IAF realized they are not so good.
The Vampires were augmented with Dassault Ouragans.

Ouragans were first jet fighters from Dassault and were comparable to the Mig-15s used in North Korea. They also had the high-velocity rockets which were way better than the rockets on Vampire.

Meantime PAF was getting Sabres already.

So the next gen Dassault plane Mystere and the Hawker Hunter were purchased.

Both were great fighter and ground attack planes.

Soon after 1965 war, the Mysteres were retired and Su-7s were bought for that role.

In big-picture terms, Inda had to keep up with matching technology that was being introduced into the sub-continent.*
Unfortunately, the British technology was marginal with a dash of the stiff upper lip and the French was a lot of croissants. Meaning high priced bakwas.

Into this mix came the Soviets with inexpensive planes and offer to mfg them in India.


The uphill battle that Indian military services had to fight was the technology being introduced.

If you study combat system analyses methodology if opposing forces had marginal force ratios, the technology ratio factor had to be inverse of the attackers.
Eg. If PAF to IAF locally was 2:1 and could happen as IAF had three front war (West Pakistan, East Pakistan, and China) then to survive IAF had to have a technology advantage of 2:1 over PAF.
Yet all they had was 1:0.8 (Eg Starfighter and Sabres were much better than Gnats and Mysteres) in their favor. IOW with inferior planes, they fought against better.

That was the greatness of the 1965 war and all those great pilots warriors.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 21:51

X-post...
ArjunPandit wrote:
kancha wrote:
'Flight Without Formulae' by AC Kermode is a masterpiece. Written before WW2, it remains one of the best books to understand basic aerodynamics. I read it before I took up aeromodelling exactly one decade ago.
But as the name suggests, it is without numericals .. so I'm not quite sure whether it will meet your needs.
A quick google search shows pdf versions available for download. May have a look

Thanks Kancha, while looking for this book, I got another book (Mechanics of flight), which was exactly what I was looking for :D

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 21:56

Also try this:

Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators

Very good book form perspective of pilots.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Jan 2018 22:35

ramana wrote:Also try this:

Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators

Very good book form perspective of pilots.

Thanks sir, hopefully these books will de-addict me from BRF for next round of re-toxing :D.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby arshyam » 15 Jan 2018 19:11

Paging deejay, Akshay Kapoor and other services folks.

Is there a protocol to follow when referencing the name of a posthumous veteran who is also a gallantry awardee? A few friends of mine are looking to inaugurate a facility in Maj. Unnikrishnan's name, and we'd like to get the references correct for the plaque. The tentative text goes like this:

In memory of
Maj. Sandeep Unnikrishnan, 7 Bihar Regiment, 51 Special Action Group, Ashoka Chakra 2009 (Posthumous)
<facility name>
inaugurated by
<name of chief guest and associates>
on
<date>
at
<location>

I tried looking at various online sources to get an idea (Army website, BRF, Wiki and chacha), but didn't find anything authoritative, hence this post. I am roughly using the citation published by PIB as a reference (http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=46980), and have not included the service number as this is not an official military facility.

Please let me know if this format looks alright. It's a time sensitive thing as we have to get the work started, so please reply as soon as you can. I'll delete this post l8r as this is a public forum and I'd rather not reveal too much. Had to post here as I cannot send PM.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Jan 2018 19:34

Below is the correct format. Decoration comes right after the name with the highest decoration first

Maj Sandeep Unnikrishnan, Ashok Chakra (Posthumous), 7 Bihar/ 51 Special Action Group

You could also write 7th Bn The Bihar Regiment for ease of understanding but the first is shorter and crisper I think

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby arshyam » 15 Jan 2018 19:49

Thanks saar, it is for a training facility for aspiring students who want to join the services. I'll go with the first version itself as it is in a school and Army shortcuts may not be understood by everyone.

I am also thinking of adding something inspirational at the end, something like "Service before self" or “कर्म ही धर्म”, which is the motto of the Bihar regt. Do you think that would be inappropriate? Or if you have any suggestions on a slogan that students could relate to, that will be useful too.

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Jan 2018 20:00

I can't think of anything better than :

'How can a man die better than facing fearful odds
For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods''

Followed by the war cry of the Bihar Regt

Jai Bajrang Bali !!

Or this shlok from the geeta

हतो वा प्राप्स्यसि स्वर्गं जित्वा वा भोक्ष्यसे महीम् ।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः ॥३७॥

Followed by the war cry of the Bihar Regt

Jai Bajrang Bali !!

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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby arshyam » 15 Jan 2018 20:07

Thanks, will suggest these options and see which one resonates.

ramana
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Jan 2018 21:57

How about the motto of Indian Army?

B Upadhyay
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Re: Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous - Aug 2016

Postby B Upadhyay » 16 Jan 2018 07:55

I thank this forum for accepting my membership and I am privileged to be here. I have been reading this for the past 7 years and it has truly been an eye opener. It has helped me gain a much better understanding of international affairs, and also,more importantly, internal affairs. Posts by the various Guru's are always a pleasure to read and learn from. Threads like western universalism have opened my eyes to the kind of civilisational threats we face, aside from the conventional military and geo strategic challenges. I am of course, just a small fry and normal citizen, with no relation to the services, defence or even engineering, but I hope I can make some small contributions and continue learning.


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