Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

[prasannasimha]

Kulasekarapatnam is being looked at for a possible second launch site but this still requires dog pegging for equatorial directed launches. Each site has one or other trade off. They will not have a launch site for only one type of vehicle.

[srin]

Kulasekarapatnam is being looked at for a possible second launch site but this still requires dog pegging for equatorial directed launches. Each site has one or other trade off. They will not have a launch site for only one type of vehicle.

Why not ? Why do they need to have such a site equipped for equatorial launches also ? That seems to be an artificial requirement to me. Especially if we are planning a lighter PSLV, it'd make much more sense to have all such polar launches from the new launch centre.

[prasannasimha]

Multiple launches will be a requirement with varied launch combinations as the basic launch facilities will be common.

[schinnas]

It seems far sighted to have two separate launch locations. From perspective of disaster recovery in the event of natural disasters to developing one as exclusive private commercial launch facility, etc.

Does NASA have only one launch location?

Thinking small has been the bane of Indian policy making and PSU thinking. Hopefully, ISRO will show to be an exception.

[Indranil]

I have been reading up on the 100 ton launch class. It is much more populated than what I had initially thought. And I am now more in Haridas jis camp. The shortest path to the all solid stage launcher would be:

1. S55: S139 (2-segments) 2.8 mtr dia, 10 mtr in height
2. S30: S139 (1 segment) 2.8 mtr dia, 7 mtr in height
3. PS3: (PSLV's third stage) 7.8 tons, 2.02 mtr dia, 3.54 mtr in height

Versatility may be added by having the option to directly mount the payload, or mount PS4+payload.

But the payload fraction surprises me. The above config is very similar to Minotaur IV which can launch over 1500 kgs to LEO.

[srin]

The restartability of PS4 liquid engine will be important for multi-payloads, so it probably needs to be an intrinsic part of the launcher, not an option. Unless I'm missing something ? That means 4 stages.

[vasu raya]

Here is a minimalist launchpad somewhere between SHAR and a A5 TEL

https://i.imgur.com/z4Sdln4.jpg

[Indranil]

The restartability of PS4 liquid engine will be important for multi-payloads, so it probably needs to be an intrinsic part of the launcher, not an option. Unless I'm missing something ? That means 4 stages.

They don’t need restart ability unless you want to put the satellites in different kind of orbits.

[Haridas]

But the payload fraction surprises me.

Pls share your insight about the 100 ton craft. Also pls tell us more about the surprise.

[Mort Walker]

It seems far sighted to have two separate launch locations. From perspective of disaster recovery in the event of natural disasters to developing one as exclusive private commercial launch facility, etc.

Does NASA have only one launch location?

Thinking small has been the bane of Indian policy making and PSU thinking. Hopefully, ISRO will show to be an exception.

Continental US:
Cape Canaveral, FL
Wallops Island, VA
Vandenberg, AFB in southern CA

Outside continental US:
Kwajalein Atoll south Pacific
Kodiak Island, AK
Barking Sands, HI (US military exclusive)

[Indranil]

But the payload fraction surprises me.

Pls share your insight about the 100 ton craft. Also pls tell us more about the surprise.

A little short on time. But, Looking at Minotaur, epsilon, long march 11, kaizou (or however it is actually spelt) and even the mass fraction of our very own PSLV XL, I won’t be surprised if the payload capacity is closer to 1000 kgs to LEO.

I had one more observation (generic of course), launch vehicles derived from ICBMs had better mass fractions than LVs derived from rocket boosters.

A second possible PSLV config could be:
1: S65:derived from a single segment of the S200.
2. S30: derived from a single segment of S139
3. PS3: PSLV’s third stage
4. PS4 (optional): PSLVs fourth stage

[Haridas]

Pslv XL, you mean 1000 kg to GTO?

A second possible PSLV config could be:
1: S65:derived from a single segment of the S200.
2. S30: derived from a single segment of S139
3. PS3: PSLV’s third stage
4. PS4 (optional): PSLVs fourth stage

Sure. In terms of cookie cutter line mfg, the S139 based 1 & 2 stage option is otoh lower capital tooling cost and volume based cost reduction.

Will know which config when the fat lady sings in future. Any guess on anticipated date for the mini pslv?

[Indranil]

They said they are aiming for late 2018, early 2019; which I read as: it will be ready by late 2019, early 2020.

[ramdas]

@haridas: the sslv payload is 500-700 kg to 700 km SSO. I believe the stated payload is from SHAR. If so, the capability of this LV is not that far behind the Minotaur IV. Note that the Minotaur IV has a 1000 kg payload to 700 km SSO from sites where there is no requirement for a dog leg maneuver. From SHAR it would have a much lower payload to the same orbit.

Note Would S-139 based stages (the S-139 has a low stage mass fraction of 138/168=0.82xx even if the motor mass fraction is ca 0.87) be viable for this performance ? To me it appears that the SSLV is going to be all composite (but motors running on lower chamber pressure than Minotaur IV and no NEPE propellants in stage 3 unlike Minotaur IV) or the SSLV could use a maraging steel first stage and composite upper stages to have a design like a (A-5+small kick motor) scaled up by a factor of 2. What do you think ? Also keep in mind that composite casings reduce, not increase cost.

[prasannasimha]

RLVTD undergoing tests probably for LEX and REX

[Indranil]

@haridas: the sslv payload is 500-700 kg to 700 km SSO. I believe the stated payload is from SHAR. If so, the capability of this LV is not that far behind the Minotaur IV. Note that the Minotaur IV has a 1000 kg payload to 700 km SSO from sites where there is no requirement for a dog leg maneuver. From SHAR it would have a much lower payload to the same orbit.

If ISRO means 700 kg to SSO (With the dog leg), then they are at par. But until now they have said "near earth orbit" or "low earth orbit". Anyways as HAridas ji says we should wait for the fat lady to sing.

[anupmisra]

RLVTD undergoing tests probably for LEX and REX

Not an expert in space exploration or space travel, but aren't the heat shield tiles facing the wrong direction?

[Haridas]

^^^ You can be assured they have top class rocket scientists designing it. No worries.

[Haridas]

OT Alert:
Haridas sir, are you Arun S. If yes, it is great to have you back as it was always pleasure to read your knowledgeable posts. If not, kindly ignore this.

Enjoy Mahendra Kapoor;s song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy5FZsJonxo

[Prem]

OT Alert:
Haridas sir, are you Arun S. If yes, it is great to have you back as it was always pleasure to read your knowledgeable posts. If not, kindly ignore this.

Enjoy Mahendra Kapoor;s song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy5FZsJonxo

Woh TN Jinka Bajana Naa Ho Mumkin, Usse Computer Pey Simulation Dey kar Chorrna Accha.

[Haridas]

Woh TN Jinka Bajana Naa Ho Mumkin, Usse Computer Pey Simulation Dey kar Chorrna Accha.

Bahut khuoob, Prem ji, kya tuk bandi hai. School master ney punishment diya, jab tak sarrey pahaadey theek nahi sunatey, tab tak class kay baahar choukidaari karo. Chidambaram saab ab bhi computer pey trying.

[prasannasimha]

^^^They are very much in the right direction.

[shiv]

Not an expert in space exploration or space travel, but aren't the heat shield tiles facing the wrong direction?

Amreeki Space Shuttle re entry image

[Amber G.]

Isro plans landing near moon’s south pole with Chandrayaan-2
- This will be the first-ever mission to soft land near the moon’s south pole.
-The launch could take place either in the first quarter of 2018 or second half.

[Ashokk]

Chandrayaan-2 mission: Rover to spend 14 days on moon's surface, says Isro chief

NEW DELHI: Gearing up for its most challenging space mission, Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is leaving no stone unturned to make the Chandrayaan-2 (lunar-2) mission a success. Unlike the first lunar mission when a PSLV rocket carried the spacecraft to the moon's orbit, this time heavy-payload lifter GSLV Mk II will launch the spacecraft weighing 3,290kg as the module will carry an orbiter, a rover and a lander to the moon.
Giving exclusive details about the mission, Isro chairman Dr K Sivan told TOI, "Chandraayan-2 is a challenging mission as for the first time we will carry an orbiter, a lander and a rover to the moon. The launch date schedule is sometime in April. Once the GSLV rocket carrying the spacecraft is launched from Sriharikota, the orbiter will reach the moon's orbit in one to two months. (The moon's orbit is 3,82,000km away from the earth's surface)."

Dr Sivan said, "After reaching the moon's orbit, the lander will get detached from the orbiter and do a soft-landing near the south pole of the moon. The 6-wheeled rover fixed within the lander will get detached and move on the lunar surface. The rover has been designed in such a way that it will have power to spend a lunar day or 14 Earth days on the moon's surface and walk up to 150-200 km. It will do several experiments and on-site chemical analysis of the surface."



The Isro chairman said, "The rover will then send data and images of the lunar surface back to the Earth through the orbiter within 15 minutes.

After spending 14 earth days, the rover will go in a sleep mode. We are hoping the rover will again come alive whenever that part of the moon (where the rover will land) gets sunlight and recharges the rover's solar cells. Besides the rover, the orbiter will also capture images of the moon while orbiting it."

On testing of lunar components, Dr Sivan said, "All three components of the lunar module are almost ready. Currently, there integration is going on. Once the module is ready, it will have to go through rigorous tests." On fixing launch date, he said, "The launch date will depend on various factors like the moon's relative position with respect to the Earth.

Once the GSLV is launched, it will put the spacecraft in the 170 km x 20,000 km elliptical orbit. From the elliptical orbit, the craft will be manoeuvred towards the lunar orbit by firing thrusters. Therefore, we expect it to reach the lunar orbit in two months."

[JTull]

Interview: ISRO needs 4 years to catch up with satellite demand: Dr. Sivan

Our aim is to meet the immediate requirement with a target of 18 launches per year ; The Chandrayaan-2 mission will also be launched this year

It has been a meteoric journey from a small farming village, Sarakal Vilai, in Kanniyakumari for K. Sivan, who has taken charge as the Secretary, Department of Space, and Chairman of the Space Commission and the Indian Space Research Organisation. From early education in a Tamil medium school, through a distinguished education and career in aerospace engineering, Dr Sivan has played a significant role in ISRO's success with its two satellite launch vehicles — the PSLV and the GSLV — especially in taming the elusive GSLV, which he called `the naughty boy' of Indian space. Just days after taking on new responsibilities, Dr. Sivan shares his plans for ISRO’s stepped up launch schedule and steps towards manned space flight.

You have just taken charge as Secretary, Department of Space, and Chairman, ISRO and the Space Commission. In the country’s space programme which area do you think needs immediate attention?
We now have 43 satellites in space — for communication, earth observation and navigation. To meet the present national requirement, we need an equal number of satellites in addition. The frequency of launches must definitely increase. With the present launch capability, it will take us four years to make the required satellites and launch them. By then we would need to replace a few [older] satellites. It is like trying to catch up with a moving bus! This gap can be met only by increasing the launch frequency. Our aim is to meet the immediate requirement and for that, we have set 18 launches per year as the target.

For over a decade now, ISRO has been facing a serious shortage of satellite transponders because of an unforeseen demand from various users and leasing some capacity on foreign satellites. How will you tackle the gap?
Yes, we are really short of around 100 transponders. But we are going to manage that with the new satellites that we will launch. We hope to bridge the gap very soon. One major satellite that we plan to launch in a couple of months is GSAT-11. It is around six tonnes [6,000 kg]. Once it is launched and starts working, most of our problems should be solved. It is getting ready and a launch date is not fixed.

We will launch it from Kourou [in French Guiana, South America].

Do you see a need to change or re-focus activities related to development of launch vehicles, satellites and infrastructure?
There is really no need to change anything. In ISRO we define our priorities and requirements very clearly and well ahead. We have a clear plan up to 2025 for launch vehicles and spacecraft. Beyond that, too, there is an outline as to which way we should go. We have a three-year action plan.

Which missions are coming up this year?
As a part of the three-year short-term action plan, immediate missions that we plan to do this year are the GSLV-F08 that will launch the GSAT-6A communication satellite [around February]. Then we will have a PSLV mission with navigation satellite IRNSS-1I. Then comes the second developmental flight D2 of GSLV-MkIII. It will launch the high throughput satellite GSAT-29. Later, GSAT-11, which will be our heaviest satellite as of now, will be launched from Kourou. The Chandrayaan-2 mission will be launched this year on another GSLV.

At what stage are some of ISRO’s ambitious projects — the semi-cryogenic launch vehicle and the human space flight ?
For the semi-cryogenic launch vehicle, the engine development is going on. Some critical [sub-systems] are getting fabricated or tested. Our target is to test fly it sometime in 2019.

The human space flight is really not in our approved programmes for now. Before it is taken up, a human mission requires many technologies. We should develop them and be ready to execute it in a shorter period. For example, the crew module shaping, certain thermal systems and the CARE (Crew Module Atmospheric Re-entry Experiment) that was tested in a partial flight of the GSLV-MkIII in 2014.

In the case of any disaster, there should be an emergency plan to rescue the crew from the capsule. One such experiment called ‘pad abort’ will be taken up this year. Studies related to life support systems, space suits, cabin pressure, oxygen levels, crew hygiene etc. should be completed.

Last year, a plan was initiated to entrust the entire production of PSLV launchers to industry. A similar plan is under way to produce satellites. What is their status and how will this plan help?
The process is on to give the major chunk of PSLV production to industry. Internal committees are looking at how to make work packages [i.e. distribute tasks.] The selection process is on. The first PSLV from industry should roll out in 2020. If this happens, it will take care of half our job. More people in ISRO will be available for doing R&D.

Of the target of 18 launches per year, we would like to do 12 to 13 PSLVs, of which a major chunk would be through industry; three GSLVs and two GSLV-Mark IIIs.

Except for defining the modalities, which will take time, I would say that it should not be an issue for us. Major industries such as HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd,) L&T, Godrej and MTAR have been already contributing to our programme in big ways. A similar thing is happening in the satellite area also, although industry has already built one satellite under ISRO's guidance.

Beyond these, we are developing a new launch vehicle to put small satellites to space.

We want to hand over its technology and production to industry right from the beginning after doing one or two technology demonstration flights. We will do this through [ISRO's business entity] Antrix Corporation.

When will public services based on the Indian regional navigation constellation NaVIC begin?
This is an area of priority for me — to make micro and miniaturised NaVIC receivers and see that they get into our mobile phones. I am very clear about it — that any mobile without NaVIC receivers will not be allowed to be sold. How we can cajole industry to do this will take time.

How is NaVIC itself faring? All three atomic clocks on one of its satellites, IRNSS-1A, are said to have failed. Its replacement satellite IRNSS-1H was lost at launch last August.
For NaVIC’s functions, four satellites are enough to get data.

Beyond four, the accuracy of giving location on ground beyond 20 metres will increase. We did want to put the replacement satellite but the loss of 1H is in no way affecting NaVIC’s performance.

Which are some of the new areas of focus for ISRO?
We should aim for reducing the total mission cost. The satellite cost should be less, so also the cost of the launch vehicle. This will be possible when both are smaller than now. A promising technology in this area is the EPS or electric propulsion system on satellites. By bringing this in, the satellite's size will automatically come down. A four-tonne spacecraft, for example, can do the work of a six-tonne satellite [as less fuel will be carried to space.] The launcher can also be smaller and automatically the mission cost can come down.

But we don't get anything without a price. In EPS we lose something: we have to wait for 6-12 months for the spacecraft to slowly reach its destination because the thrust level is low. The vehicle injects the satellite in a GTO [a temporary geostationary transfer orbit.] For the satellite to move from there to the final orbit, the increase in the orbit size will be very, very slow. Because the thrust level will be a maximum of about 300 milli Newtons. The satellite’s service life is cut short.

See the difference with chemical propulsion that we now use —it gives us a 440-Newton thrust. The satellite can move from there to the final home within a few days.

But there are ways to beat this. The Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre is trying to improve the thrust or muscle power that we get from the EPS. We are also developing the technologies for a future reusable launch vehicle.

We should also think of innovative applications. We are trying to synergise the inputs of all 43 satellites.

We are pushing hard in the applications area. Recently we validated a new mobile app to help fishermen. It tells them where they can find large fish shoals in the sea. It has become very popular and we have to now ensure that our industry produces them in good numbers.

The draft Space law will be taken up further. We hope to have it this year.

In last year's Budget, the Department of Space was allocated ₹9,903 crore. What kind of resources would be needed for future missions?
[Smiles] We never had any problem with budgetary outlays! The problem is more in executing [using] it. But definitely [we can do with] more. More satellites are required to be put in orbit and they need more launch vehicles. We also need more facilities to make them. So it means that much more money is needed on the launch vehicle side, spacecraft side and on the infrastructure side. A bigger vehicle needs more hardware, which comes to nearly 85% of the cost. We also have to bring the production of launch vehicles to industry — and it needs extra money.

Of course, all this is projected to the government.

Would you look at a third launch pad at your Sriharikota launch centre to increase the pace of launches?
No, we are not talking of a third launch pad now. Instead we are augmenting the FLP [or LP1, the first launch pad, built in the 1990s] with a separate structure. Once you integrate a launch vehicle in one facility or launch pad, that facility will get locked for 45-60 days. The system is destroyed after every launch and it has to be refurbished each time. In this situation, even if we do continuous launches, we can do only six a year. But with multiple systems, we can be always ready to put launch vehicles together.

The capacity of the propellant plant should also be increased.

[akashganga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNYHoIm0Ols&t=628s

Fascinating information about Space X reusing first stage and eventually entire rocket. Looks like space X and other US companies are working hard to be cost competitive in launch business. It would be very difficult for other countries to compete. I think US will win the future space race using the same model as high tech IT, they control IT world with intel/amd, oracle, apple, etc with other countries such as India and China providing them support. Of course the biggest strength of US is mighty united states paper dollar.

[Indranil]

Is landing the rocket vertically the best possible solution.

The space shuttle reused the main engines (space shuttle), and the solid stage boosters. The only expendable part was the fuel tank. ISRO's RLV even recovers that.

[Amber G.]

^^^For space shuttle (or landing on earth or a planer with atmosphere) things are a little easier..atmosphere can be used for braking .. small things can be discarded (and left to be burned in atmosphere) etc.
Without atmosphere steering with reaction jets only is little tricky.

[Indranil]

Yes. But isn't that problem common to all the methods, irrespective of whether you land on bags, wheels or tripods? Orientaion using reaction motors is a very very precise operation. But it is a well solved problem, isn't it? Orbit raising and station keeping all require precision firing of the reaction rockets. Deorbiting or entering the atmosphere at the right attitude would also require the same.

Once I reach the atmosphere, why would I not use gravity and atmosphere to slow me down and glide me to my recovery spot: A splash in the sea or land on an airstrip. Why should I spend energy in trying to keep a toothpick balanced on its ends?

Obviously, the guys at SpaceX know more than me. But, I would love to know why that kind of tricky recovery is preferred. Yeah, it is more sexy than the mundane splash. I mean these days you can program parachute loaded objects to land within 100 mtrs of your destination even on windy days. Experienced parajumpers can land on the top of a moving car on non windy days.

[srai]

^^^
I think they want to use similar techniques for interplanetary missions (i.e. Mars) to land and take-off. Along the way, they would be perfecting the system before Mars mission in the 2020s.

Watch at 1:20 (main rocket base reused immediately - launches one shuttle and then returns to the same port; gets loaded with another shuttle and takes off)
Watch 3:40 for landing/takeoff when it reaches Mars

[jaysimha]

http://www.indiabudget.gov.in/ub2018-19/eb/dg91.pdf

2018-2019 Demands For Grants
DEMAND NO. 91
DEPARTMENT OF SPACE

http://idrw.org/with-10-7k-crore-space- ... n-5-years/

With 10.7k crore, Space gets its best share in 5 years

[akashganga]

Space X Falcon Heavy Live webcast is now on in their website - http://www.spacex.com/webcast

Gonna be one hell of a show

[srai]

Starman driving Tesla in space

[akashganga]

^^^^
This is a big deal folks. There is big celebration across the USA. Space X is on to something. USA is the world leader in space and they know better. I hope our guys wake up to the challenge.

[hanumadu]

Why are Boeing and Lockheed Martin not competing with Space-X for reusable first stage and heavier payloads?

[Indranil]

^^^^
This is a big deal folks. There is big celebration across the USA. Space X is on to something. USA is the world leader in space and they know better. I hope our guys wake up to the challenge.

What's at stake?

[srai]

Why are Boeing and Lockheed Martin not competing with Space-X for reusable first stage and heavier payloads?

Similar to big old automobile companies competing with Tesla on electric vehicles. Changing of guards.

[Mort Walker]

Why are Boeing and Lockheed Martin not competing with Space-X for reusable first stage and heavier payloads?

Don't count Boeing and LockMart out. They know this game well. The challenge from Space-X is welcome to them and they will answer accordingly.

[akashganga]

Why are Boeing and Lockheed Martin not competing with Space-X for reusable first stage and heavier payloads?

Don't count Boeing and LockMart out. They know this game well. The challenge from Space-X is welcome to them and they will answer accordingly.

In the USA many invincible top companies have disappeared completely in various industries because they did not innovate. There is a good possibility that innovative spaceX and blue origin (under development) may wipe out boeing and lockheed space launch business. We will find out in another 5 to 10 years. ISRO should seriously consider bringing back first stage semi cryo they are working on and make it reusable just like space X and blue origin. My 2 cents.