Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Ashokk
BRFite
Posts: 501
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Ashokk » 02 Jul 2019 02:52

Gaganyaan: India chooses Russia to pick & train astronauts
BENGALURU: Even as India and the US spar over the former’s defence contracts with Russia, the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) has finally signed the agreement to get its astronauts for the proposed Gaganyaan mission trained in Russia, even as other countries including the US and France were being considered initially.
Isro chairman K Sivan told TOI in March that the agency was most likely to pick Russia given that the two agencies have had previous experience—Russian took India’s Rakesh Sharma to space—and the Institute of Aerospace Medicine (IAM) under the Indian Air Force (IAF) has also worked with Russia.
Rakesh Sharma, who is also a member of the National Advisory Council (NAC) advising Isro on the Gaganyaan mission, told TOI: “I think it’s logical to go with Russia as it has been tried and tested. We’ve used the facility before and therefore it makes eminent sense. Although I am unaware of the state of readiness of the other training establishments. And, given the tight timelines that we have this appears most logical.”

On Monday, Natalia Lokteva, first deputy director general, Glavkosmos—a subsidiary of Roscosmos State Corporation (Russia’s space agency)—and S Unnikrishnan Nair, director, Human Space Flight Centre (HSFC) of Isro, signed a contract for “selection support, medical examination and space training of Indian astronauts.”
An official statement issued by Glavkosmos confirming the contract, read: “Glavkosmos will render to HSFC services on consulting support of selection of candidates for the Indian astronauts, providing medical examination of the candidates for access to space flight related training program and providing space flight related training for the Indian astronauts selected on the basis of the medical examination,” said in a statement released Monday.
The work will be provided with the support of the Federal State Budget Organization, UA Gagarin Research & Test Cosmonaut Training Center, and the Institute of Biomedical Problems of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
“As part of the documents we had given IAF we had described the kind of requirement and involvement of foreign agencies for training and so on… The training will be at three levels. After the rigorous selection progress, two levels of training will be done at IAM and the third level will be done abroad. Simulation of the real space environment, parabolic flights and training in the spacecraft et al will be done abroad,” Sivan had earlier told TOI.
Russia also trains astronauts from across the world seeking to go the near earth orbits. “As you well know that presently the only access to space to near earth orbit is provided by the Russians. And therefore no matter which crew goes up into orbit, the final training is done in Russia as they have to equip themselves with the systems of the Russian spacecraft,” Sharma said.

Isro established the HSFC to develop life support systems, crew training and planning for future missions under Gaganyaan.
During his visit in September 2018, Jean-Yves Le Gall, president, French space agency—Centro Nacional de Estudios Espaciales (CNES)— announced a working group for Gaganyaan and told said that there are a lot of areas of human spaceflight that France has expertise in which it would like to offer. “We even have expertise in astronauts’ training,” Gall had told TOI, adding that the agency was keen on partnering with Isro.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4107
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby sanjaykumar » 02 Jul 2019 09:20

jaysimha wrote:https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/isro-s-new-commercial-arm-newspace-india-officially-inaugurated-119052301780_1.html

Isro's new commercial arm NewSpace India officially inaugurated
NSIL was incorporated on March 6 2019, for commercially utilising research and development activities carried out by ISRO in the area of space
Image
NSIL was inaugurated by Isro's honorary adviser, Dr K Kasturirangan in the presence of chairman Dr K Sivan.



You can tell how the Indian space program is doing by Dr Sivan's smile. That is one enthusiastic dude, he is obviously living his dream.

Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2400
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Yogi_G » 02 Jul 2019 10:05

ISRO is the perfect case example of the intellectual prowess, secularism, ashes-to-success and meritocracy of the rising and aspirational Indian civilization. Dr. APJ and Dr. Sivan are classic examples of the culture and grain of the Indian populace.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Jul 2019 10:36

not one tfta among the whole lot. all dark rice eaters. they have somehow blended long gestation r&d with engineering prowress.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11308
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jul 2019 13:26

Well ISRO does not eat into a network commission unlike defence projects.

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1886
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Kakarat » 03 Jul 2019 00:40

Anyone planning to go to GSLV MKIII-M1 / Chandrayaan-2 Launch?
Registration for the viewing gallery starts tomorrow

thammu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 71
Joined: 29 Mar 2007 08:16

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby thammu » 03 Jul 2019 12:10

Kakarat wrote:Anyone planning to go to GSLV MKIII-M1 / Chandrayaan-2 Launch?
Registration for the viewing gallery starts tomorrow


Any link to register?

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1886
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Kakarat » 03 Jul 2019 12:30

thammu wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Anyone planning to go to GSLV MKIII-M1 / Chandrayaan-2 Launch?
Registration for the viewing gallery starts tomorrow


Any link to register?


Have an eye on ISRO and SHAR SDSC websites registration will commence at 00:00 hrs on 04th July 2019

A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 364
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby A Nandy » 06 Jul 2019 12:27

https://gadgets.ndtv.com/science/news/i ... ns-2063905

India's ambitious plan of building a space station is at a nascent stage, and foreign collaborations for it have not yet been finalised, the government said on Wednesday. The space station, which is planned after India's first manned mission to space - Gaganyaan in 2022, will be of modular design, with the initial modules weighing approximately 20 tonnes.

It will have provision for extended stay for three crew members, Minister of State in the Prime Minister's Office Jitendra Singh said in an answer to a question in the Lok Sabha.

The space station will provide a research platform in the areas of health, telemedicine, vaccine development, material development, disaster relief, farming, food and water conservation, waste management techniques, environmental research and education programmes.

The government's 'Make in India' initiative will be "a major driver" for the success of the space station programme in the fields of materials, avionics, fabrication, testing as well as integration of flight systems, he said.

The space station will have technologies like an orbital module to ferry crew and a life support system like in the Gaganyaan programme.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2231
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vips » 19 Jul 2019 06:49

Navy to buy Rs 1,589 crore satellite from ISRO.

The Indian Navy has placed an order with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) for a new dedicated military satellite for communications between its warships, aircraft and shore-based units, with a launch expected within a year.

The Rs 1,589 crore order for a new military satellite—named GSAT 7R—will include launch cost and procurement of necessary infrastructure on ground. The satellite is expected to eventually replace the first dedicated Indian military satellite, the GSAT 7, which was launched in 2013.

The order for the satellite was placed on June 11, with officials saying the newlysanctioned triservices Defence Space Agency is likely to get several new assets in the coming months for communication as well as surveillance.

The GSAT 7R, which will be designed to be compatible with a variety of platforms including future submarines of the Indian Navy, has an expected launch date in 2020. In December last year, a dedicated military communications satellite for the Indian Air Force, dubbed the Indian Angry Bird, was also launched by ISRO.

The GSAT 7A satellite, which went into orbit onboard the indigenous GSLV Mk II rocket, is being used for communication between all strategic platforms of the air force, including fighter jets, drones and early warning aircraft. The GSAT 6, launched in 2015, is being used for communication by ground forces.

India has been steadily increasing its presence in space that started with the series of dual use satellite from the CARTOSAT and RISAT family that are used for surveillance. In April this year, ISRO launched the strategic EMISAT that has been designed to pick up electromagnetic signals and is likely to be used for communication interception and detection of enemy assets.

The biggest surprise that India pulled off however was Anti-Satellite Test carried out on March 27, in which a ground-based interceptor successfully destroyed a low earth orbit satellite. The test placed India in a select grouping of the US, Russia and China with demonstrated antisatellite capability.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7912
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 19 Jul 2019 09:07

^^^Wow. That's pricey considering Chandrayaan-2 is under Rs. 1000 crore. The GSAT 7R is about USD $230 million. Probably quite sophisticated in capability.

Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2400
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Yogi_G » 19 Jul 2019 11:31

The Rs 1,589 crore order for a new military satellite—named GSAT 7R—will include launch cost and procurement of necessary infrastructure on ground.


Does this mean costs for the Navy or ISRO? I doubt it would be for ISRO as this should be a regular standard fare considering we already have deep space monitoring capabilities. Do they mean infra required for new Inter-communication between all vessels (including submarines) that the navy will fit with? I also agree that the costs appear high for a satellite, the wording on infrastructure is ambiguous.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1123
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby RKumar » 19 Jul 2019 12:51

Could it be setting up space operational command center? And linking real time input, processing and forwarding to relevant channels??

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby JTull » 19 Jul 2019 16:01

Probably higher throughput, higher fault-tolerance capabilities with more transponders. That may require upgrade of terminals. 6 years is a generation in communication technologies if you were to consider mobile comm equivalency.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7221
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 22 Jul 2019 00:26

Self-flagellating article

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/isros-dirty-fuel-dilemma/article28628087.ece

There are two chemicals at play — UDMH (Unsymmetrical Di-Methyl Hydrazine), which is the fuel, and Nitrogen tetroxide, the oxidiser. This is called a “dirty combination”. UDMH is highly toxic and corrosive if it comes into contact with the oxidiser, an explosion will result.
Elsewhere in the world, space programmes have moved to a cleaner and greener fuel — liquid methane or kerosene.


Of course the author in self-flagellating mode does not know that Russian and Chinese space programs use more of the dirty fuel than ISRO. And NASA and ESA also use hypergolic fuels for rocket engine and motor ignition systems. Solid motors and Hypergolic fuels are not going to go away.

So in essence the above article's author just spouted some cow dung without any research.

Of course semi-cryo is presented but RP1 as used by NASA has its own disadvantages:

propellant is sensitive to changes in atmospheric conditions. When temperature changes the volume of the propellant changes with a resultant propellant density change. Therefore, the temperature must be determined at launch time so that the correct propellant oxidizer to fuel volume ratio is loaded to control the residuals left at the end of flight since the residuals are un-usable and considered lost payload. Also kerosene is produced as a mixture of chemical components. It does not have a boiling point, but has a distillation fraction; therefore, a sample must be tested for each launch to determine the proper mass needed for Ulat mission. An alternative to the above practice is to accept the fuel variance and add a flight system that changes the propellant ratio used by the engine to control the residuals. This added system is subject to
failure and additional operational maintenance.

Kerosene is subject to gaining moisture and particles during handling and requires moisture removal and conditioning equipment to avoid bacteria growth and contamination. The waste products of this removal process must be properly managed and disposed of which adds cost to the operation. Also these fuel choices produce significantly lower Isp with O2 than H 2 does. Some designs condition or heat the RP-l to reduce the GLOW of the vehicle as well as the residual mass, and this conditioning ground system adds complexity and cost. RP-I does not evaporate like hydrogen and leaves a film and deposits that must be c leaned for reusable systems to avoid reaction with Lox.


https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110003599.pdf

Varoon Shekhar
BRFite
Posts: 1885
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 22 Jul 2019 05:40

By Arun Ram of Chennai

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blo ... -lift-off/

Sour, more negative than positive. Seems to be very impatient with the progress of the cryogenic engine, forgets that the CUS-12 has flown successfully six times on GSLV Mark 2.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23755
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby SSridhar » 23 Jul 2019 09:13

Is ISRO’s “cryogenic curse” finally over? - Ajay Lele, The Space Review

Just two days after the world celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing, India’s second mission to the Moon, Chandrayaan-2, began its 48-day journey to the Moon. Chandrayaan-2, an orbiter and a lander and rover system, launched from Indian soil using an Indian rocket called GSLV Mark III on the afternoon of July 22.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is expected to attempt a soft landing of the Chandrayaan-2 lander at a location close to the south pole of the Moon on September 6 or 7. It will be the first time ISRO has attempted a soft-landing on any world. The orbiter weighs 2,379 kilograms and is expected to operate for one year. The lander, called Vikram, weighs 1,471 kilograms while the rover, Pragyan, weighs 27 kilograms. The lander-rover would operate minimum for 14 Earth days.

The launch was scheduled for a week earlier, early on July 15. However, the mission was called off just 56 minutes before liftoff because of a technical glitch.

ISRO has not provided the specific details about the exact nature of what it called a “technical snag.” There are indications that sufficient pressure had not built up in the helium tanks in the rocket. There is a possibility that the leak could have been at multiple places in the tanks. Whatever might the case, the fact that ISRO successfully performed the launch just a week after detection of the fault shows their professionalism.

This is not the first time ISRO has called off a mission during the countdown stage. The GSLV-D5 mission was called off on August 19, 2013. The launch, with the Indian Cryogenic Stage, was called off due to a leak observed in the UH25 fuel system of the liquid second stage, during the final phases of the countdown. ISRO ultimately performed the launch, successfully, on January 5, 2014.

ISRO’s GSLV Mark III is a three-stage rocket with first and second stages filled with solid and liquid propellants, respectively. The third stage is a cryogenic stage. A cryogenic system is sought after since it provides more thrust per kilogram of propellants. The cryogenic engine uses liquid oxygen (LOX) and liquid hydrogen (LH2) as propellants. ISRO, which has made reasonable technological progress is various arenas of space technologies, has found cryogenic technology as a “horse difficult to mount.”

During the 1990s, ISRO had a major focus towards development of launch vehicles, since India had achieved spacefaring nation status a decade earlier and was keen to expand its space program. The 1990s was the period when ISRO’s PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle) had started operations. Since this rocket has the capability only to put satellites having less than two tons weight into orbit, ISRO felt the need to have a vehicle to put heavy satellites into geostationary orbits. That led to an offer from Glavkosmos, a Soviet agency.

Glavkosmos was to transfer cryogenic engine technology to India. However, when the actual transfer was to take place the geopolitical situation had changed, but Russia was required to honor the deal. However, during the 1991–1993 period the wind started blowing against this deal. It was argued that transfer this technology to ISRO could also help India’s missile program. The Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) bogie was raised, and finally Boris Yeltsin and Bill Clinton worked on a compromise formula that stopped any technology transfer, but allowed Russia to sell seven cryogenic engines to India. It is important to note that cryogenic engines are considered as unusable engines in the development of long-range missiles like ICBMs. Hence, India was rejected access to the technology not owing to any missile fears, but more out of geopolitical (perhaps geo-economic) considerations.

All this led ISRO to slowly start developing cryogenic technology indigenously. ISRO took on itself to develop the GSLV programme, meant for heavy satellites in the range of 4 to 6 tons to GEO.

In the first decade of 21st century ISRO suffered three failures using this technology. Of those, one failure was due to an Indian-made cryogenic engine, while in case of other two disappointments, the engines were Russian. During the second decade of the 21st century, India was forced to call-off two missions during the countdown phase, but the launches were ultimately successful.

ISRO took significant amount of time—almost two decades—to develop the cryogenic technology. Normally, a cryogenic stage would include the engine, propellant tanks, motor casing, and wiring. Initially, there was very limited expertise available with ISRO regarding cryogenics. Such cryogenic engine technology is complex to design, develop, and build. ISRO started with a clean slate. They were required to work on various aspects, from developing special igniters and turbopumps to identifying and making special alloys. The entire process required them to develop new technologies and techniques.

India has developed two types of cryogenic engines. The first one is based on the Russian design and specifications, called CE-7.5 (and variants with minor changes.) The burn time for this engine was 720 seconds. ISRO had one failure and three successes with this engine. When ISRO was using this engine, it was also developing the fully indigenous CE-20 engine and the C25 cryogenic stage. Obviously, working on the Russian design must have helped ISRO towards making indigenous engine development. The normal burn time for CE-20 is 580 seconds. There have been three successful tests with the CE-20 but Chandrayaan-2 is only the first operational flight of GSLV Mark III. More successful flights would be required to establish the vehicle as a commercial product. However, with the CE-20 engine this rocket can only lift around four tonnes.


Realising the limitations in regards to lift of heavy payloads with existing cryogenic technology, ISRO started working a couple years ago on a project to develop semi-cryogenic engines. The proposal is to use a highly refined form of kerosene termed RP-1, along with liquid oxygen, to increase the payload capacity of its GSLV Mk III. The first test with this new engine is expected to happen by December 2020.

ISRO has major ambitions like human spaceflight, a mission to Venus, and second mission to Mars. Also, there are proposals like an Indian space station. However, it is important to note that instead of praiseworthy execution of few important projects and successfully establishing a “brand ISRO” owing to frugal engineering, ISRO continues to remain a small player in a few arenas of space domain. ISRO successfully conducted its first missions to Moon and Mars a few years ago. However, because of the lack of a heavy launch vehicle, ISRO was able to carry a very limited payload to these planets. Even with Chandrayaan-2, ISRO could be conducting an experiment on the Moon surface only lasting for one lunar day. All deep space missions of ISRO have proven to be mainly technology demonstration missions. More science could have been possible if these missions would have been capable of carrying more payloads. Even today, ISRO remains only partially capable of launching heavy communications satellites to geostationary orbit.

It has taken time for ISRO to develop cryogenic technology. Recently ISRO has had some good successes with the GSLV. However, there is a need to leapfrog in the heavy-lift launch vehicle sector. If ISRO has to grow, this program has to grow rapidly. At this point in time ISRO has just barely solved the cryogenic riddle, yet much needs to be done.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7221
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 23 Jul 2019 11:55

I like Ajay Lele, but why do I find the above article self-flagellating?

Only six agencies and five countries have mastered cryo-engine technology world over and it is not something you can purchase or build overnight. Particularly if one does not have any outside help.

And it is *not* just engine development. Putting the engine into a stage and integrating it into a rocket and the entire processes around it, that is what goes as rocket technology.

I do agree though that ISRO should scale up the program and its project and launchers. Can ISRO do the following:

1. Have its own space lab by 2025?
2. Have a moon landing by 2030? Followed by a permanent settlement on moon by 2035?
3. Regular flights to moon by 2035?
4. Mining operations on moon by 2040. Crashing an asteroid on moon by 2040 and mining it as well.

I think it is doable. Eminently doable. I have some ideas on how. Which I will post later.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7912
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Jul 2019 18:48

The existing L110 2nd stage of the GSLV MkIII could be scaled up and use 4 S200 SRBs to lift a payload of over 12 tons. Of course the HLV is in development for 2024 to take up over 10 tons GTO.

Perhaps sights should be set to lift 100 tons GTO? Maybe budgets aren’t there to do that.

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1886
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Kakarat » 23 Jul 2019 19:33

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 1155718146

GSLV MKIII M1 with Chandrayaan2 Launch from Second Launch Pad as seen from Launch Viewing Gallery at Satish Dhawan Space Centre SHAR, Sriharikota


Image

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 9386207232

GSLV MKIII M1 in flight as seen from Launch Viewing Gallery at Satish Dhawan Space Centre SHAR, Sriharikota


Image
more to follow

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1663
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby ldev » 23 Jul 2019 22:26

Mort Walker wrote:The existing L110 2nd stage of the GSLV MkIII could be scaled up and use 4 S200 SRBs to lift a payload of over 12 tons. Of course the HLV is in development for 2024 to take up over 10 tons GTO.

Perhaps sights should be set to lift 100 tons GTO? Maybe budgets aren’t there to do that.


And look what we have here:

India to buy Russian rocket engines for it's space program

If this is indeed the case then the RD 180 using RP-1/LOX will be a great buy as it generates ~3800 Kn of thrust. It has also been used by the US for it's Atlas V launchers for over a decade now. Very efficient engine. ISRO's under development SCE200 which also uses kerosene/LOX is only rated at ~1800 Kn. If the L110 stage is replaced with a RD 180 and it is ignited at lift off then the combination of the S200 boosters + the RD 180 will result in a total thrust of >14000 Kn at lift off. This will be equal to the Ariane V. And the existing CE20 LOX/LH2 engine is powerful enough at 200 Kn for now.

In theory this should allow the GSLV 3 to loft comparable payloads to LEO and GTO as the Ariane V i.e. 20 tons to LEO and 10 tons to GTO.

But it will be a set back for in house engine development for ISRO.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2636
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby nam » 23 Jul 2019 22:40

Isn't it better off increasing the number of engines on the core i.e. Spacex istylie.., since the MK3 core is already clustered with two?

Russian engine may be a monster, but that is a completely different path.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53475
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2019 22:50

disha

Ajay Lele wrote:
ISRO has not provided the specific details about the exact nature of what it called a “technical snag.” There are indications that sufficient pressure had not built up in the helium tanks in the rocket. There is a possibility that the leak could have been at multiple places in the tanks. Whatever might the case, the fact that ISRO successfully performed the launch just a week after detection of the fault shows their professionalism.


After that para I did not read further.
If there were multiple leaks how could they be patched in a week? So what else is bokwas int eh article?

I see that every success is bring out the inner Pakistaniyaat or bile in the chatteratti.
Even praise needs some mud to be flung.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2142
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vivek K » 23 Jul 2019 22:58

The more we succeed, the more the dogs bark! Enjoy the sounds!! Its someone's Paki heart bleeding.

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1663
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby ldev » 23 Jul 2019 23:12

nam wrote:Isn't it better off increasing the number of engines on the core i.e. Spacex istylie.., since the MK3 core is already clustered with two?

Russian engine may be a monster, but that is a completely different path.


There are probably constraints that ISRO faces which we do not know about e.g. increasing the number of S200 boosters will result in significantly greater aerodynamic stress on the vehicle structure while it is still in the lower atmosphere which the vehicle may not be able to withstand. Also there could be constraints to jettison the boosters before the vehicle is over downrange countries such as Indonesia. The combination of these 2 factors could also be the reason that the existing L110 stage is ignited 114 seconds after launch. A RD 180 swap, even if it ignited at 114 seconds after launch will still significantly increase payload capacity though it may in that case not be comparable to Ariane V.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7912
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Mort Walker » 23 Jul 2019 23:55

I believe either the 2nd or 3rd stage of GSLV MkIII was seen falling from the sky in Australia.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7221
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 24 Jul 2019 03:03

ramana wrote:I see that every success is bring out the inner Pakistaniyaat or bile in the chatteratti.
Even praise needs some mud to be flung.


Thanks! I was for a while wondering am I the only jingo around in my own echo chamber going rah-rah over our achievements!

I have modified your phrase for the Indian chatterati who provide their bile while proving their inner pakistaniyaat.

Even praise needs some dung to be flung

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7221
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 24 Jul 2019 03:33

Mort Walker wrote:I believe either the 2nd or 3rd stage of GSLV MkIII was seen falling from the sky in Australia.


That would be the first time Aussies would have seen a rocket!

However I doubt the above. This is GSLV Mk III-D1 launch of GSAT-19 in 2017. The video is from 2.50 minutes into the launch.

[youtube]LuQfoO_yHlM?t=170[/youtube]

Take a look at the Range/Altitude figures for the next frame when DD is actually doing something other than focusing on everybody else. Near the Cryo-stage ignition point the range is @468 km from SHAR. Altitude is @165 Km.

I took the above information and mapped it into google maps. Draw a line to Aceh in Indonesia. Now if the second stage (or the L110) were to fall a perfect parabola, at @165Km altitude, it will come down at @936 Km from SHAR. Aceh is @2800 Km from SHAR.

In fact both the solid boosters and the L110 stage fall within the Bay of Bengal well short of the Indonesian archipelago. As for the 3rd stage, well the stage itself is on GTO and will take couple of weeks to burn down and it might be sighted in a night sky anywhere.

GSLV Mk-III for Chandrayaan was no different, so similar parameters hold.
Last edited by disha on 24 Jul 2019 04:19, edited 1 time in total.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7221
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby disha » 24 Jul 2019 04:02

nam wrote:Isn't it better off increasing the number of engines on the core i.e. Spacex istylie.., since the MK3 core is already clustered with two?

Russian engine may be a monster, but that is a completely different path.


No. SpaceX is making a virtue out of necessity. SpaceX has no other engines other than Merlin and its under development Raptor. It does not have any solid boosters.

Hence to increase lift capacity, it went with the clustering solution. Problem with clustering solution is that your entire launch sequence becomes complex.

For example if you have clustered 2 engines and one fails, then the thrust is at an angle to the centre of the rocket and the Vector-Control system has to compensate appropriately.

Now in a 3 engine cluster what happens if 1 fails and another is overperforming and another is underperforming? How will you account for that.

Now in a 5 engine cluster what are your failure points? 2 out of 3? 1 out of 4? As you see the complexity is continuing to increase and at what point you will come back and say, this is something you can risk and this is something you cannot risk? What happens if you cluster 30 engines?

Take the case of N1 rocket. It clustered 30 engines. And all its launch failed. Here is one failure analysis:

few seconds into launch, a transient voltage caused the KORD to shut down Engine #12. After this happened, the KORD shut off Engine #24 to maintain symmetrical thrust. At T+6 seconds, pogo oscillation in the #2 engine tore several components off their mounts and started a propellant leak. At T+25 seconds, further vibrations ruptured a fuel line and caused RP-1 to spill into the aft section of the booster. When it came into contact with the leaking gas, a fire started. The fire then burned through wiring in the power supply, causing electrical arcing which was picked up by sensors and interpreted by the KORD as a pressurization problem in the turbopumps. The KORD responded by issuing a general command to shut down the entire first stage at T+68 seconds into launch. This signal was also transmitted up to the second and third stages, "locking" them and preventing a manual ground command from being sent to start their engines. Telemetry also showed that the power generators in the N-1 continued functioning until impact with the ground at T+183 seconds. Investigators discovered the remains of the rocket 32 miles (52 kilometers) from the launch pad.


Point is SpaceX is taking substantive risk by clustering engines. National space agencies like NASA/ESA/ISRO/JAXA cannot take such a risk. Russians are stuck at a particular rocket design which works for them, but they are not able to leap frog into next level. China is also seems to be going that way.

sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4107
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Jul 2019 04:30

? The Vostok rocket clusters 20 engines and is perhaps the most successful deign over 60 years.

ldev
BRFite
Posts: 1663
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby ldev » 24 Jul 2019 05:16

SpaceX has had 73 successful Falcon 9 launches out of a total of 75 launches. There is also the undeniable expertise that will be built by making hundreds of the same engine. Not to mention the resultant cost savings. AFAIK they make 4-5 Merlin 1D engines per week and have to date produced more than 500 Merlin 1D engines.

But ISRO has it's own road map. The present weak link is the L110 stage and ISRO has recognized that and is already developing the SCE 200 RP-1/LOX as a replacement. However the problem is that it has only marginally more thrust than the L110 stage it is replacing ~1850 Kn vs 1600 Kn. So yes, payload will go up but only marginally from 4t to 5t at GTO. Maybe that is why there are these rumblings about import of Russian engines.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16404
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby NRao » 24 Jul 2019 06:02

disha ji,

From what I have been able to figure out - some time back - Musk gamed it with a cluster. Small or large it did not matter, a cluster was important.

Reason in this short article, including his thought on N1:

Feb 2018 :: Musk explains why SpaceX prefers clusters of small engines

To your point, the Falcon Heavy has 27 Merlin (small) engines, of which "up to half a dozen engines could fail and the rocket would still make it to orbit". 22% failure designed in (that is something)? IIRC, they are not all going full throttle and are programmed to take over in case of certain amount failing.

Also, to drive home the "cluster" point even further, the BFR is expected to have 31 Raptors - clustered.

Seems to me that the advancements in avionics has been the key. ?????

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1886
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Kakarat » 24 Jul 2019 17:50

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 4603662336
GSLV MKIII M1 in flight as seen from Launch Viewing Gallery at Satish Dhawan Space Centre SHAR, Sriharikota


Image

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 5101349888

Image
Last edited by Kakarat on 24 Jul 2019 19:48, edited 1 time in total.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2231
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vips » 24 Jul 2019 19:07

ldev wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:The existing L110 2nd stage of the GSLV MkIII could be scaled up and use 4 S200 SRBs to lift a payload of over 12 tons. Of course the HLV is in development for 2024 to take up over 10 tons GTO.

Perhaps sights should be set to lift 100 tons GTO? Maybe budgets aren’t there to do that.


And look what we have here:

India to buy Russian rocket engines for it's space program


In theory this should allow the GSLV 3 to loft comparable payloads to LEO and GTO as the Ariane V i.e. 20 tons to LEO and 10 tons to GTO.





In other words we can loft up our proposed space station in just one launch.

This would be barring the dimensional constraints of the space station.

A Nandy
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 364
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 23:39

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby A Nandy » 24 Jul 2019 19:49

Now in a 3 engine cluster what happens if 1 fails and another is overperforming and another is underperforming? How will you account for that.


Throttle one down or the other up :)

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3027
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Jul 2019 19:52

Didnt see getting posted here

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indspacee ... m-tomorrow

‘IndSpaceEx’ will be conducted at the Integrated Defence Headquarters (IDH) in New Delhi with experts from the three services - Army, Air Force and Navy along with DRDO and academia among others coming together for it.

The Defence Space Agency, which will command the A-SAT capabilities among others, has been formed to ensure defence of Indian assets in space along with offensive capabilities. The agency is to be setup in Benguluru under the tri-services command.

hgupta
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 20 Oct 2018 14:17

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby hgupta » 24 Jul 2019 20:55

How does a Falcon 9 weigh 550 tons when it can lift more payload than GLSV Mk III when it weighs 640 tons?

Disha,
that above may tell you that SpaceX's approach to clustered engines may be more bang on target since it is more efficient than GLSV Mk III?

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby kit » 24 Jul 2019 21:18

Vips wrote:
ldev wrote:
And look what we have here:

India to buy Russian rocket engines for it's space program


In theory this should allow the GSLV 3 to loft comparable payloads to LEO and GTO as the Ariane V i.e. 20 tons to LEO and 10 tons to GTO.





In other words we can loft up our proposed space station in just one launch.

This would be barring the dimensional constraints of the space station.



https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=trow&q=rd+180


RD180

prasannasimha
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1170
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:22

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 24 Jul 2019 21:49

hgupta wrote:How does a Falcon 9 weigh 550 tons when it can lift more payload than GLSV Mk III when it weighs 640 tons?

Disha,
that above may tell you that SpaceX's approach to clustered engines may be more bang on target since it is more efficient than GLSV Mk III?

The reason is different - the ISP of the semicryo engines are higher and allows a more efficient launch. Not just because of clustering:

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2308
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Prem Kumar » 24 Jul 2019 23:15

Great photos Kakarat!


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: tsarkar and 63 guests