Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 05 Jun 2017 22:54

sanjaykumar wrote:One question-how does ISRO get the rocket to do those jumping maneuvers from top to bottom and side to side for the DD cameraman?

The camera is mounted on a bullock cart.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 05 Jun 2017 22:57

nirav wrote:The discussion in ISP and lugging dead weight keeps coming up regularly in this thread.

I'd just like to say, if ordinary jingoes like us know about the advantages/disadvantages of them,it's beyond doubt that the people@ ISRO who design and build and launch these rockets are aware of them.

As per ISRO,
Burn time of S200 Solid strap-on motor is 130s. Not 114s as people here are assuming to be.
L110 core was fired @ 114s while S200 motor is in thursting phase. [per ISRO]
Unlike liquid motor Solid motors cannot be shutdown fully. It still carries momentum. So it takes few more secs than liquid motors to separate, so it can be safely separated.

So where is the question of lugging dead weight?

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 05 Jun 2017 23:18

In the dense atmosphere cost wise the solid rocket booster is still the best to produce a high thrust economically.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 05 Jun 2017 23:19

Com'on. Where is the brishit rona dhona? How is an ISRO launch successful without a few hundred brishits whining about their aid money!!!

Still no links of comments sections of such esteemed news sites shared here for reading pleasures of lazy bums like moi.

No respect for sacred traditions, the quality of posting in BRF is going down the drain day by day, I tell ya

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 05 Jun 2017 23:26

The achievement is so massive and impressive, that it shuts up even those idiots in the UK. But I may be speaking too soon, give it a few hours or days

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 05 Jun 2017 23:34

Com'on. Where is the brishit rona dhona? How is an ISRO launch successful without a few hundred brishits whining about their aid money!!!

They are too busy getting the sh!te bombed out of them by the pakis

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 06 Jun 2017 00:18

SRIHARIKOTA (ANDHRA PRADESH): Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) will work on launching vehicles with "electric propulsion system" so that large satellites can be sent into space by the agency, its Chairman A S Kiran Kumar said today.

Asked whether ISRO would make use of the facility at French Guiana, he said for the next satellite GSAT18, weighing about 3.3 tonnes and scheduled for launch on June 28 and another satellite weighing 5.8 tonnes would be done from there.

"We have a six-tonne satellite in principle. It is possible to be realised using electric propulsion. So we have already started using electric propulsion system. (Even) GSAT-19 (launched today) carries an electric propulsion system. So, we have successfully tested that," he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 003892.cms

So we are already pushing 6 tons.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 06 Jun 2017 00:45

As we celebrate this successful start of the third phase of ISRO's launch vehicle program, here's an article from the archives that is worth reading. It is from 1983, when the last of the SLV-3s, constituting the first experimental phase of the program, was launched.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 71567.html

Note the references to the future and where we have come since then.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Jun 2017 01:01

Varoon Shekhar wrote:The achievement is so massive and impressive, that it shuts up even those idiots in the UK. But I may be speaking too soon, give it a few hours or days

The massiveness or impressiveness is lost because aam admi has no reference framework to compare. That is why Rahul M's elephant analogies etc help aam admi and people like me.

Aam admi has to be capitvated; technological and scientific revolutions can go silently. However, when they capture the imagination of the people; they give pride and clarity.

Unfortunately, this heavy burden falls down on Modi as well. Modi constantly reminding about a Swacch Bharat is slowly sinking in.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Jun 2017 01:30

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/india-shows- ... 38226.html

The GSLV – MKIII D1/GSAT-19 mission takes India closer to the next generation launch vehicle and satellite capability," Prime Minister Narendra Modi posted on his Twitter account.The rocket boasts a powerful engine that has been developed in India over many years. Programme managers hope to reduce reliance on European engines that have propelled some of India's spacecraft in the past.The GSLV Mk III rocket carried a satellite weighing more than three tonnes into a high orbit above Earth, a landmark achievement as India had struggled to match the heavier payloads of other space giants."They just launched the most powerful engine in India. It is a cryogenic engine, which took them 20 years to develop. Some engineers have spent their life working on this," Mathieu Weiss, a representative in India for France's space agency CNES, told AFP.
The launch is another feather in the cap for scientists at ISRO, who won Asia's race to Mars in 2014 when an Indian spacecraft reached the Red Planet on a shoestring budget.That feat burnished India's reputation as a reliable low-cost option for space exploration, with its $73 million price tag drastically undercutting NASA's Maven Mars $671-million mission.
ISRO is also mulling the idea of missions to Jupiter and Venus.India is vying for a larger slice of the booming commercial satellite business as phone, internet and other companies seek expanded and more high-end communications.In February India put a record 104 satellites in orbit from a single rocket, surpassing Russia which launched 39 satellites in one mission in June 2014.The rocket's main cargo on that occasion was a 714-kilogram (1,574-pound) satellite for Earth observation but it was also loaded with 103 smaller "nano satellites", nearly all from other countries.Although India has successfully launched lighter satellites in recent years, this latest rocket is capable of carrying a massive four-tonne payload into high orbit -- twice the capacity of its predecessor, ISRO says.The Indian-made capsule was designed to carry up to three astronauts but ISRO said it would take at least another seven years to reach the point where a crew could be put into space.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Jun 2017 07:22

From here,

“As far as Mk III is concerned, we are planning two launches every year,” he [Kiran Kumar] said.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Jun 2017 09:13

negi wrote:Disha and Co what are your views on CE 7.5 and the CE 20 ? Have we ditched the staged combustion cycle or we have plans for bigger engines to replace the L110 which may employ the staged combustion .

I do not know about ISRO's plans., but in all honesty - here is what I think (& hope) the outlook will be., given what we have and what we do not:

1. We do not have a Semi-Cryo. It is still on drawing board. We all are hearing since 2013/2014 that we will have a 2000 kN SCE that will replace the current L110 clustered vikas. Assuming SCE-200 is tested tomorrow., it will still take 3-5 years before it is staged and launched. We will not have an SCE by 2020. But we will get there., since the focus is ULV and SCE-200 enables that.

2. No launch capacity is led to waste by ISRO. SLV stage was used for HEX. And GSLV-Mk II will still continued to be used. In fact NISAR/Mangalyaan-2 have already booked their rides on GSLV-Mk II. GSLV Mk II is a powerful launch capability and ISRO will tinker around improving its performance.

My wishlist: The S-200 can replace the S-139., the tank size of both the second stage vikas and CUS can be increased (by increasing the diameter to 3.2 mtrs) and engine uprated. This will give it 2 to 2.5 tonne GTO capability. Guess what? With ION engines., it is possible to have the current 4 tonne Geo-sats to be strapped down to 2 to 2.5 tonne Geo-sats and launchable by Mk-II. Who will use 2 to 2.5 tonne Geo-Sats? Well you have the entire Africa and S.E Asia market to cater too.

Importantly., GSLV Mk-II gives 3-3.5 tonne capability to LTO/TLI (in comparison Saturn V's TLI capacity was 15x or 45-48 tonne). Hence all the mangalyaans and chandrayaans and budhyaans and guruyaans can take advantage of GSLV Mk-II.

Since already Seven Mk-IIs are booked., its obituary is premature.

Now what happens if GSLV also launches Polar Sats? This will replace the PSLV.

%%%

ISRO having mastered both staged-combustion and gas-generator., that is a technical know-how and it will find its way into future engines. So 10 years down the line., we may not have the Mk II line., but we will have the technology in a more powerful engine.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 06 Jun 2017 09:16

prasannasimha wrote:In the dense atmosphere cost wise the solid rocket booster is still the best to produce a high thrust economically.

Very interesting. Any supporting data or science behind this statement?

vina · Post by **vina** » 06 Jun 2017 10:10

ISRO is still going to be launching satellites using Ariane, the first one being a 3.X odd tons one and the other nearly a 6 ton one. While it is understandable that the GSLV MKIII is still in development stage and until "proven" by a couple of more flights cannot possibly be used commercially, what does stand out that the truly larger of ISRO's own satellites (6 tons) cannot be launched by the current GSVL MKIII config.

ISRO has consistently underestimated the size of the satellites and the launchers needed . In fact, the "upper size" of Geo Stationary satellites was taken to be a MAX of 2.5 tons in the mid 80s , even when 5 ton satellites were being planned elsewhere and that was there reason why they made the design choices they did for the GSLV MK1/2 (use the legacy PSLV stages & components as is - the PSVL 2nd stage with Vikas was hung from the sides of the core stage as the boosters for MK1/2, and they didn't bother clustering the engines in the core as they ideally should have done). They simply didn't think of a need for a capacity beyond 2.5 tons. The "plan" those days, when someone asked them about need for higher capacity, was to "co-locate" two satellites in the same GEO parking slot, but with two different polarisations in their communications so that you theoretically can have the same communications capacity as a larger 5 ton satellite.

That is fine in a world of "command and control" and where communications and bandwidth are tightly owned and govt operated (think SITE and other stuff of those days), but simply wont cut it, when communications is a massive capacity play with huge volumes and largely consumer oriented.

The demand for transponders keeps shooting up as more TV broadcast via DTH and also other needs for bandwidth will increase exponentially as India industrialises and more people get online in rural and underserved areas.

India WILL need 10 ton class satellites and our launchers should be sized accordingly. This entire business of undersizing our launchers should go.

Sure, if you go electric and you can reduce the fuel needed for a satellite , that just gives you more space to pack in more payload! . A 10 ton class vehicle will give you the flexibility to do a dual launch of 2*5 , launch large science and space exploration payloads and also for manned missions. It really is dual purpose that way

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jun 2017 10:33

sanjaykumar wrote:One question-how does ISRO get the rocket to do those jumping maneuvers from top to bottom and side to side for the DD cameraman?

That is called the-rain avoidance. It could be raining up there and the batti/fire of the rocket might go out with water being more dominant than fire. So the rocket jumps to avoid the rain.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2017 10:36

I dont think anyone in mid 80s could have correctly predicted the boom in media and internet after 1991. i dont recall any such visionary articles and i used to read the telegraph and chindu end to end those days incl the science supplements of the chindu which stood unrivalled.

those days the maruti omni was state of art for middle class aspiration and premier 118NE a show off car for rich people. there was no cellphone service in india at all , DD was 4 hrs from 5:45pm to 10ish and a wierd Teletext box atop the TV was being tried out in MTNL only.

its tough to be a agile in long science intensive projects like cryo engines ..... i think 30% bigger is a good post to aim for.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Jun 2017 10:46

Singha wrote:I dont think anyone in mid 80s could have correctly predicted the boom in media and internet after 1991. i dont recall any such visionary articles and i used to read the telegraph and chindu end to end those days incl the science supplements of the chindu which stood unrivalled.

those days the maruti omni was state of art for middle class aspiration and premier 118NE a show off car for rich people. there was no cellphone service in india at all , DD was 4 hrs from 5:45pm to 10ish and a wierd Teletext box atop the TV was being tried out in MTNL only.

its tough to be a agile in long science intensive projects like cryo engines ..... i think 30% bigger is a good post to aim for.

In the 60s science mags for kids used to say that by 1990 people would have flying cars like Jetsons or movement by jetpacks and there would be colonies on the moon and under the sea. House cleaning & services would be by robots. There would be supersonic transport across the world and wars would be fought with laser weapons. Pollution was non existent. Third world was also non existent. Third world demand was non existent.

The only predictions anywhere near what we have today is flatscreen TVs on the wall and skype-like video-phones.The only other thing that was possibly like today was a kitchen magic box which would make food appear on demand. Phone apps to order food home is similar.

Question - how long will it be before
1. Near Space too is unusable due to junked old sats
2. Some tech/infrastructure innovation for communication will make satellites too expensive in comparison

vina · Post by **vina** » 06 Jun 2017 11:00

Singha wrote:I dont think anyone in mid 80s could have correctly predicted the boom in media and internet after 1991.

Oh.. The business world is RIFE historically with that kind of bad "predictions" . Case, I know quite well myself.

1. IBM -> They initially predicted the total demand of their computers back in the early 40s at approx THREE per yer
2. IBM -> Late 70s/early 80s. They predicted that the total demand for PCs per annum to be approx 30,000 , which was pocket change. So they went and bought an el cheapo processor from a company called intel and sourced a rubbish OS called DOS from an unknown startup called Microsoft , packaged the two and put it to market, and we know what happened to IBM since then.

3. Xerox -> Was rejected by most investors when they went for funding. Question asked. Who the hell will want to copy a document ? It is nonsensical and useless!

4. Bandwidth -: When Ciena did DWDM on a large scale, and increased the fibre capacity already no the ground by what 128 times? The huge build out in fibre in 1998-2000 soon resulted in massive bankruptcies LTI, MCI etc. etc. names I forget . Smart canny investors with deep pockets bought them out for cents to a dollar and 10 years later made fat profits on their investments!

When I was working in IBM in the mid 90s, the old timers there (20 + year there oldies) used to rue , about those kind of missed opportunities, including commercialising RISC, and relational databases , all IBM inventions , because it would hurt their bread and butter fat cat businesses (Mainframes and Heirarchical database ). Well guess what, unknown companies called Sun and Oracle and HP were very happy to take what IBM invented and run away with the market! .In fact, the VM was an IBM invention since the 60s. It took a company called VMWare to replicate that in late 90s on generic hardware and run away with the market. Same with disk drives, same with networking..

This kind of "underestimate" is par for the course. But the bigger point is what do you do when you realise you have underestimated a run away demand , as it should have become obvious in 1995 ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Jun 2017 11:06

disha wrote:
My wishlist: The S-200 can replace the S-139., the tank size of both the second stage vikas and CUS can be increased (by increasing the diameter to 3.2 mtrs) and engine uprated.

Mine too. Top it off with an ogival heat shield

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Jun 2017 11:29

tandav wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:In the dense atmosphere cost wise the solid rocket booster is still the best to produce a high thrust economically.
Very interesting. Any supporting data or science behind this statement?

Look at GSLV-Mk III launch profile. 52% of the velocity gain comes from the cryogenic engine., but it is the massive thrust from the solids which takes it out of the atmosphere layer., the second stage sustains the thrust and increases the velocity marginally and then cry-stage gives it a good kick.

The cryo stage thrust is 200 kN., but the solids provide 5000 kN (25x difference).

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Jun 2017 11:37

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvicaqXFWTQ

Karolina Goswami on the launch... Puts it all together nicely.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Jun 2017 11:37

Indranil wrote:Top it off with an ogival heat shield

That too!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2017 14:00

if netflix type OTT plays takes off and eclipses cable and satellite tv, a good chunk of the satellite market would vanish. people would take such OTT tv via broadband 100mbps and cast it to their tv using chromecast type sticks.
there is no particular lack of fiber in india to serve the richer 50% of people who all mostly live in towns, but getting 100mbps to each home will take some time.

I believe a HD stream is around 3 mbps so even 25mbps is plenty enough to surf internet from other devices or have multiple devices streaming content.

here, its not BSNL or Airtel who is doing much, but new hungry players like ACT broadband. airtel minted money on some 4mbps DSL lines for years and years until ACT kicked its behind , now belatedly it rolls up ethernet to home and fiber to kerb.

my two kids have already abandoned the tv except for sports/natgeo and get all their music and cartoons off youtube.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 06 Jun 2017 14:04

Picklu wrote:Com'on. Where is the brishit rona dhona? How is an ISRO launch successful without a few hundred brishits whining about their aid money!!!

Still no links of comments sections of such esteemed news sites shared here for reading pleasures of lazy bums like moi.

No respect for sacred traditions, the quality of posting in BRF is going down the drain day by day, I tell ya

Don't be dishearthened. The venerable PeePeeSee put up an atricle with nice cartoons yesterday. And today top of Asia page is Adhoti's book which is deemed bigger news.

Posting a few cartoons. Ensoy.

The coverage of the launch has been euphoric, and often colourful, with websites comparing the rocket to the weight of 200 elephants, or five jumbo jets.

Isro hopes that the rocket, called the "monster" by one newspaper, will be able to carry an astronaut to space by 2024

And nowadays they have started disabling comments on most Indian articles

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jun 2017 17:28

let us not forget this man - Nambi narayanan
he started the liquid engine work at vssc and his team went on to build the vikas engine and must be working on the sce200 now.

the shadow lords in delhi and trivandrum who took money from 3 letter agency to implicate him are still walking free today.

wiki says the kerala govt is even now yet to pay the 10L compensation that court had ordered to pay more than 15 years ago.

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Jun 2017 17:35

Good time for Republic/Arnab to start chasing the thugs who are still free. This story needs to be told far and wide.

Pressure needs to be build on GoI to get the thugs. Justice needs to be served.

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 06 Jun 2017 19:15

Kakarat wrote:I read somewhere that CE-20 is Gas Generator because its less complicated to develop than stage combustion cycle
There is also an CE-60 under development using stage combustion cycle for TSTO RLV application

Yes , Gas Generator is simpler to develope than SC Cycle .... ISRO studies showed that the Isp gain for SC cycle vs GG was not worth extra effort required for developement of SC cycle ..... hence they decide to go with GG .

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Jun 2017 20:31

Singha wrote:let us not forget this man - Nambi narayanan
he started the liquid engine work at vssc and his team went on to build the vikas engine and must be working on the sce200 now.

the shadow lords in delhi and trivandrum who took money from 3 letter agency to implicate him are still walking free today.

wiki says the kerala govt is even now yet to pay the 10L compensation that court had ordered to pay more than 15 years ago.

With SpaceX taking off they retain advantage on the cost aspect as well as the growing Agni series meant that the two speculated reasons for USA to do what it did is no longer necessary. Hopefully ISRO doesn't see any artificial blocks.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 06 Jun 2017 22:25

Singha wrote:if netflix type OTT plays takes off and eclipses cable and satellite tv, a good chunk of the satellite market would vanish. people would take such OTT tv via broadband 100mbps and cast it to their tv using chromecast type sticks.
there is no particular lack of fiber in india to serve the richer 50% of people who all mostly live in towns, but getting 100mbps to each home will take some time.

I believe a HD stream is around 3 mbps so even 25mbps is plenty enough to surf internet from other devices or have multiple devices streaming content.

here, its not BSNL or Airtel who is doing much, but new hungry players like ACT broadband. airtel minted money on some 4mbps DSL lines for years and years until ACT kicked its behind , now belatedly it rolls up ethernet to home and fiber to kerb.

my two kids have already abandoned the tv except for sports/natgeo and get all their music and cartoons off youtube.

India needs massive commsat infrastructure for a different reason. We need some cheap and scalable way to backhaul mobile (last mile being the cell tower) data back to the POPs, with 5G (which we should be planning for already) we can basically blanket the country with coverage. Imagine cell phone connectivity in remote villages in the North East or in Maoist infested areas in Orissa/Bihar! Mobile connectivity has been the single biggest change for the better in lives of ordinary Indians and a gateway to all sorts of commerce and other opportunities for everyone.

A nice bonus would be a desi-Iridium type functionality for our security forces. Imagine an encounter going on in Sopore where the RR turns off all cell towers in a 50 km radius but can still communicate fine using handheld mobile like devices and doesn't have to be tied down to military comm equipment. There are plenty of other battlefield applications that can be made.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 06 Jun 2017 23:23

GSLV Mk3 onboard camera footage

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 06 Jun 2017 23:26

Identify the UFO please.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 06 Jun 2017 23:53

Thats a bird

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 07 Jun 2017 00:30

prasannasimha wrote:Thats a bird

thats a downer prasannasimha ji !

must post it on the yankee forums and hope some UFO nut picks it up

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 07 Jun 2017 03:33

shiv wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:One question-how does ISRO get the rocket to do those jumping maneuvers from top to bottom and side to side for the DD cameraman?
That is called the-rain avoidance. It could be raining up there and the batti/fire of the rocket might go out with water being more dominant than fire. So the rocket jumps to avoid the rain.

Clever buggers, these ISROwallahs.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Jun 2017 08:27

Boor-darshan never disappoints

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Jun 2017 09:47

If the weather permits, ALL GSLV launches should be easily visible from telescoped, stabilized cameras placed along the coast.
It should be possible to see strap on motor seleration, heat shield seperation, cryo ignition on the Mk3.

If a launcher hoists something onto LEO, it might be possible to see even more

PSLV sun synchronous launches, I agree, it will be difficult to see much, but if cameras are placed in Sri Lanka or even around vedranayam, in south TN, some action can be seen.

Another thing i notice is the use of an aerial platform for taking live broadcast by many space agencies.

Overall a good satellite launch event is a mixture of cameras on the ground, in the air and on the rocket itself. All need to be hi def and be transmitting in real time!

ISRO uses optical and IR tracking from stabilized cameras. Even DRDO uses them.
What the viewer wants is a slickly edited launch package.

ISRO is a civilian space agency, it should allow more transparency or manage the media better in this age and era. ISRO is in the big league now!
This comes with a new set of challenges, marketing, media management, handling of criticism,image building, PR, image building as never before. The ways of the past with lazy TV interviewers asking nonsense questions referencing poor people of India or throwing the 'one dollar a day' challenge at ISRO chief must be stopped.

ISRO, must tell interviewers that these are red lines they must not cross, if they do, a stock sarcastic answer and shaming of the interviewer must be deployed.

Image building must be taken seriously. The days when ISRO has to be defensive about its work, or the days where India has to be on the defensive about a space programe need to be over

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Jun 2017 09:55

Heard from my bro, he trained with someone who reported to Nambi Sir, Nambi Sir's teams were the ParaSF equivalents of IA during the 90s and he used to be top notch tech manager(on the lines of korolev) himself and this during the mid 90s when 6th pay commission wasnt there and SC.Engr D used to make 7000Rs PM. No one believed when the spy ring news broke out and the team took about 2 years to recover and start picking up pace. There was a general feeling that if this could happen to Nambi Sir who is next

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jun 2017 12:14

Media today say that a 10t launcher is the next goal,and just one modular launch type using new fuel,regulating qty. to determine parameters of the launch.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2017 04:14

PSLV to launch Cartosat by end of month June.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Jun 2017 09:27

Image building must be taken seriously. The days when ISRO has to be defensive about its work, or the days where India has to be on the defensive about a space programe need to be over

But dont you read that India doesnt have toilets and it is funded of british taxpayers money