Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

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Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Right, at current rocket speeds, it would take nearly 100,000 years just to reach Alpha Centauri, the nearest star in our galaxy apart from our own sun. What about other stars in our galaxy, not to say the x-billion other galaxies?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kit »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Right, at current rocket speeds, it would take nearly 100,000 years just to reach Alpha Centauri, the nearest star in our galaxy apart from our own sun. What about other stars in our galaxy, not to say the x-billion other galaxies?
i dont think anyone sensible is thinking of a manned human mission to ALPHA Centauri with current rocket technology or even unmanned ones !.. the only way is to use electromagnetic radiation to send data across a wide spectrum and just hope someone "sees" it and make sense of it
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Amber G. »

Depending on what one may think "seriously thinking about" really is .. but FWIW a few comments..
- There are some serious "plans" for Manned (or unmanned) flights to Alpha Century (or near by stars) -- here by plan I mean some serious thinking. These involve time period of about 100 (or 50 years) for nearest stars. (extrapolating current technologies)... These are in existence for last few decades in serious writings (IMO).

- Unmanned object like Voyager etc which may take 100,000 or 1000,000 years have been launched and will be launched.

- As sending "data" or listening to data - we can theoretically communicate with any one in our galaxy provided they have a radio-telescope like we do.

Interesting part is SETI type projects (which search for life outside our solar system) are few decades old.. Now with Modi govt and more interest in space and science we have quite a few Indian Scientists and Institutes (and hopefully more to come) who are currently investing in projects like this. You may hear more stories like this:
Indian Scientist is Working in a $100m Project, Searching for Aliens!
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by abhijitm »

Forget interstellar human travel without finding credible solution on gravity.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by ramana »

pardon me for asking, but there was ISRO designed private satellite mfr by Alpha Systems to be completed by 2017?
Did this happen and was it launched?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ There are a few news reports such as this current one from last month..
In first major contract, Isro lets industry make 27 satellites
A Nandy
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by A Nandy »

Forget interstellar human travel without finding credible solution on gravity.
OT, so my last post on the topic, but, Breakthrough Starshot is the best we have at the moment, unmanned plans:
The Breakthrough Starshot program aims to demonstrate a proof-of-concept for ultra-fast, light-driven nano-spacecraft, and lay the foundations for a first launch to Alpha Centauri within the next generation.
A flyby mission has been proposed to Proxima Centauri b, an Earth-sized exoplanet in the habitable zone of its host star, Proxima Centauri, in the Alpha Centauri system.[2] At a speed between 15% and 20% of the speed of light,[3][4][5][6] it would take between twenty and thirty years to complete the journey, and approximately four years for a return message from the starship to Earth.
The Starshot concept envisions launching a "mothership" carrying about a thousand tiny spacecraft (on the scale of centimeters) to a high-altitude Earth orbit and then deploying them. A phased array of ground-based lasers would then focus a light beam on the crafts' sails to accelerate them one by one to the target speed within 10 minutes, with an average acceleration on the order of 100 km/s2 (10,000 ɡ), and an illumination energy on the order of 1 TJ delivered to each sail. A preliminary sail model is suggested to have a surface area of 4 m × 4 m.[18][19] An October 2017 presentation of the Starshot system model[20][21] examines circular sails and finds that the beam director capital cost is minimized by having a sail diameter of 5 meters.
The fleet would have about 1000 spacecraft, and each one (dubbed a StarChip), would be a very small centimeter-sized vehicle weighing a few grams.[1] They would be propelled by a square-kilometre array of 10 kW ground-based lasers with a combined output of up to 100 GW.[23][24] A swarm of about 1000 units would compensate for the losses caused by interstellar dust collisions en route to the target.[23][25] In a recent detailed study, Thiem Hoang and coworkers [26] found that mitigating the collisions with dust, hydrogen and galactic cosmic rays may not be quite as severe an engineering problem as first thought.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... spacecraft
https://breakthroughinitiatives.org/news/12

In July 2017, scientists announced that precursors to StarChip, named Sprites, were successfully launched and flown through Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle by ISRO from Satish Dhawan Space Centre.[35] Sprites will also be flown on the KickSat-2 mission scheduled for November 2018. 8)
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by A Nandy »

Meanwhile back on Earth...
BENGALURU: As Indian space scientists race to fly Indians to space in four years time, two DRDO labs- DEBEL (Defence Bioengineering and Electromedical Laboratory), Bengaluru, and DFRL (Defence Food Research Laboratory), Mysuru, plan to chip in with space suits and foodstuff for the crew.
For long, both these laboratories have been supporting the armed forces with food packages from DFRL, even providing a selection of fare to Wing Commander Rakesh Sharma (Retd) during his space journey onboard the Soviet Soyuz T-11 spacecraft in 1984.
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/ ... u-for.html
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Trikaal »

Breakthrough starshot still has a hundred different issues that are yet to be resolved. At this stage, it is a concept, nothing more. The chip sized spaceships are theoretical, we haven't made a single one yet. The sails that can withstand high energy beams for minutes are still a concept. The energy beams that are supposed to accelerate these chip ships are again, just a concept. Not to mention that Breakthrough starshot can never be a manned mission, which was what started this entire conversation in the first place.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Kakarat »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZUBr8q ... e=youtu.be

LIVE Now from Delhi: Presser by Union Minister @DrJitendraSingh on issues related to Department of Space, @isro. Chairman Dr K Sivan also present.

Press conference/presentation on Indian Human Space Mission

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Vips »

ISRO on track to send 3 humans to space as part of ‘Gaganyaan Mission’.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is on track to sending a human to space in its ‘Gaganyaan Mission’, the space agency said Tuesday. “The total programme cost is expected to be less than Rs 10,000 crores. Two unmanned Gaganyaan missions will be undertaken prior to sending humans to space,” ISRO chief K Sivan told reporters.

Sivan said the GSLV Mk-III launch vehicle, which has the necessary payload capability for the mission, will be used. “The total programme is expected to be completed by 2022 with the first unmanned flight within 30 months,” he said adding: “The mission will aim to send a three-person crew to space for a period of seven days where they will do microgravity experiments.”

ISRO officials said that the spacecraft will be placed in a low earth orbit of 300-400 km. “The programme will make India the fourth nation in the world to launch a human spaceflight mission after USA, Russia, and China,” said Minister of State Jitendra Singh who is in-charge of the Department of Space.

Earlier this month, Prime Minister Narendra Modi in his Independence Day speech announced the ‘Gaganyaan Mission’ of India’s maiden human spaceflight programme. He said, “A son or a daughter of India will go to space from Indian soil by an Indian vehicle by 2022 or sooner in time to mark India’s 75th year of Independence.”

Sivan, however, said that research and development around this mission first began in 2004. He said that the dimensions of the crew module that will transport the astronauts will be 7 metres in height and the mass will be 7 tonnes. “The astronauts can be anybody. We will have a preference for pilots but the selection and training process will be done by the Indian Air Force and the ISRO,” he said. The mission upon return will land in the Arabian Sea close to Gujarat coast,” Sivan said.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kurup »

Image
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by kit »

Vips wrote:ISRO on track to send 3 humans to space as part of ‘Gaganyaan Mission’.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is on track to sending a human to space in its ‘Gaganyaan Mission’, the space agency said Tuesday. “The total programme cost is expected to be less than Rs 10,000 crores. Two unmanned Gaganyaan missions will be undertaken prior to sending humans to space,” ISRO chief K Sivan told reporters.

Sivan said the GSLV Mk-III launch vehicle, which has the necessary payload capability for the mission, will be used. “The total programme is expected to be completed by 2022 with the first unmanned flight within 30 months,” he said adding: “The mission will aim to send a three-person crew to space for a period of seven days where they will do microgravity experiments.”

ISRO officials said that the spacecraft will be placed in a low earth orbit of 300-400 km. “The programme will make India the fourth nation in the world to launch a human spaceflight mission after USA, Russia, and China,” said Minister of State Jitendra Singh who is in-charge of the Department of Space.

Earlier this month, Prime Minister Narendra Modi in his Independence Day speech announced the ‘Gaganyaan Mission’ of India’s maiden human spaceflight programme. He said, “A son or a daughter of India will go to space from Indian soil by an Indian vehicle by 2022 or sooner in time to mark India’s 75th year of Independence.”

Sivan, however, said that research and development around this mission first began in 2004. He said that the dimensions of the crew module that will transport the astronauts will be 7 metres in height and the mass will be 7 tonnes. “The astronauts can be anybody. We will have a preference for pilots but the selection and training process will be done by the Indian Air Force and the ISRO,” he said. The mission upon return will land in the Arabian Sea close to Gujarat coast,” Sivan said.
Payload of nearly 9 tons incl weight of astronauts to LEO ?!.. remarkable
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by prasannasimha »

While going through the missions statement they seem to be preparing for both a spash and a splat landing. This probably explains why they did the parachute cutoff a little higher. So in case of a splat landing they would fir rthrusters to get the landing velocity to zero or else it would be a parachute landing in sea. Target is off Gujarath Coast and a second one is in Bay of Bengal and a third is also a possible land touchdown as a contingency plan.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by prasannasimha »

The Lander for Chandrayaan is named Vikram.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Neshant »

That's one small step for Manu.

They should have at least 1 woman on that team.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Where is the likely crew undergoing training? How many people are there in the initial list?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Indranil »

Neshant wrote:
They should have at least 1 woman on that team.
Why? It is should be strictly merit based. The number can be anywhere between 0 and 3 women.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Neshant »

Indranil wrote:
Neshant wrote:
They should have at least 1 woman on that team.
Why? It is should be strictly merit based. The number can be anywhere between 0 and 3 women.
Because this is not just a scientific mission. It is a mission to showcase the New India to Indians.

There would be much more science that could be done on the ground with that money were it not so.

With educated women come educated children and a powerful nation.

That being said, in a population of 1.35 billion, it's hard to argue that a meritorious woman cannot be found - at least once the mostly male "airforce pilot only" criteria is put aside. Where was the meritocracy in that where half the population was excluded from the forces' selection.

The one great thing the Soviets did when the chose Yuri Gagarin to go into space was to select "the average man" and train him up. It was meant as a statement to the world that with Communism, even the any man could accomplish great things.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by abhijitm »

IAF is ready to send woman astronaut. They have fighter pilots now who can take that g force.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by abhik »

BTW why only Air Force pilots, why not include the other forces also? I doubt there will be much "piloting" involved - so why not a submariner who may be more used to working in a confined pressure vessel for days at end.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Trikaal »

^G-force tolerance of pilots probably.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Kakarat »

Bengaluru Space Expo(BSX) 2018
http://bsxindia.com/index.asp
6th Bengaluru Space Expo(BSX) 2018, an International Exhibition on Space, Satellites, Launch Vehicles and its Technologies, & Servicess organised by Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) in association with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and its commercial arm, the Antrix Corporation Limited (ANTRIX) is scheduled from 6 - 8 September at BIEC, Tumkur Road, Bengaluru.
http://bsxindia.com/World-Space-Biz-Con ... m-2018.pdf
http://bsxindia.com/BSX-Visitor-Brochure-2018.pdf
http://bsxindia.com/List-of-Exhibitors-BSX-2018.pdf
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by prasannasimha »

Rishi_Tri wrote:Where is the likely crew undergoing training? How many people are there in the initial list?
Institute of aerospace medicine. I had heard there is an intense competition for selection in the airforce.
Why airforce many reasons including g forces and navigation training. For eg as a redundancy old manual navigation systems are kept.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Vips »

Old report from 2010 about training of Vyomonauts at Institure of Aerospace Medicine.
The reason for choosing vyomanauts from the pool of IAF fighter pilots is that they are already trained to endure high gravity forces. This makes it easier to train them for space missions. “The module (for the selection) is being prepared at the moment,” he said. The run-up to the selection process speeded up after February 2009, when the Union government gave its nod to the Rs12,400-crore manned space flight mission.

India’s first human space mission envisages a fully autonomous orbital vehicle carrying two vyomanauts into space at an altitude of 300-400 km from sea-level, and safely returning them to Earth. The mission is expected to last between four and seven days.

“The selection procedure will begin soon. But the final phase (when the four finalists will be selected) will be in 2012 as the selection criteria are very strict,” Madhusoodanan said.The candidate vyomanauts will have to answer a Nasa questionnaire before being subjected to physical examination, which would include cardiac, dental, neurological, ophthalmologic, psychological, radiographic, ear-nose-throat (ENT), and other laboratory tests at the Institute of Aerospace Medicine (IAM) in Bangalore.

The candidates will be tested on the human centrifuge machine at the IAM for endurance while experiencing extreme gravitational forces – of the kind one experiences during space flights.

Madhusoodanan said the facilities at the IAM were being upgraded in preparation for the tough selection process for vyomanauts.

The final four candidates will undergo astronaut training at the IAM as well as at ISRO’s astronaut training school. This will be set up on a 100-acre land in North Bangalore by 2012.

The vyomanauts will be trained to survive in the space vehicle environment while enduring micro gravity, pressure and gaseous changes, to keep alert under space flight stresses, to monitor and operate controls and instruments in the case of information failure, to scientifically observe and report beyond what instruments can do, and to control and improve flight systems and sub-systems like a true test pilot.

India has already completed a space capsule recovery experiment (SCRE) in January, 2007, to perfect the art of retrieving the vyomanauts safely after they return from their space mission.

The spacecraft carrying the vyomanauts will be programmed to splash at a predetermined location in the sea before Indian Navy vessels retrieve the vyomanauts for post-mission medical checks.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Long interview with the ISRO chairman.

https://www.frontline.in/science-and-te ... epage=true
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Jits »

Neshant wrote:
Indranil wrote: Why? It is should be strictly merit based. The number can be anywhere between 0 and 3 women.
Because this is not just a scientific mission. It is a mission to showcase the New India to Indians.

There would be much more science that could be done on the ground with that money were it not so.

With educated women come educated children and a powerful nation.

That being said, in a population of 1.35 billion, it's hard to argue that a meritorious woman cannot be found - at least once the mostly male "airforce pilot only" criteria is put aside. Where was the meritocracy in that where half the population was excluded from the forces' selection.

The one great thing the Soviets did when the chose Yuri Gagarin to go into space was to select "the average man" and train him up. It was meant as a statement to the world that with Communism, even the any man could accomplish great things.
Why then stop at women only, why not members from SC/ST community, why not from minorities let's have them too. What about LGBT community. Please for once stop this social justice nonsense and give only merit a chance, we had enough of it.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by srin »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Long interview with the ISRO chairman.

https://www.frontline.in/science-and-te ... epage=true
Thank you very much. That was very informative.


Sorry for the noob question, but the talk of mini-PSLV (for launching 500kg sats) triggered a thought if it would be possible to launch even lighter sats (say, 100kg) in a cheaper way: first stage in an aircraft (say a fighter at Mach 2 at around 50000 ft - though a modified Mig-25 might take it higher and faster) that drops a 1ton missile that can go higher and accelerate to orbital velocity and deliver a light weight and compact satellite.

I suspect it'd be cheaper (first stage is reusable) but I don't have the number crunching ability to compute if it is feasible. Thoughts ?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by darshhan »

Jits wrote: Why then stop at women only, why not members from SC/ST community, why not from minorities let's have them too. What about LGBT community. Please for once stop this social justice nonsense and give only merit a chance, we had enough of it.
Exactly. Where does this stop? Tommorrow even transgendered and handicapped people will have to be accomodated. there is no limit to political correctness.

The best part is that even after practicing such extreme form of political correctness, social justice types will not be satisfied.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by sanjaykumar »

Merit requires equity to develop. The SC, condemned to his hut with no education etc has had no chance to develop merit. Or do you think there is no handicap in being marginalised?
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by JayS »

Are Vyomonaut or Gaganyaan official names from ISRO..?

I dearly hope they don't call Indian astronauts "Vyomonaut". That sounds sort of cheap. I would rather have proper full desi name.

Gaganyaan looks like its official, but then I don't understand why Gaganyaan. Gagan means "sky" not space.

NOTE: By no means I want to start a naming contest here. :wink:
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by abhijitm »

All in good time. First let's get best 3 currently available to make this high stake Rs 10,000 Cr maiden mission a grand success. IAF trained pilots are best suited right now, man or woman. As ISRO grows confidence they can train any suitable Indian.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Jits »

sanjaykumar wrote:Merit requires equity to develop. The SC, condemned to his hut with no education etc has had no chance to develop merit. Or do you think there is no handicap in being marginalised?
Almost every group in India has faced some or other form of discrimination or marginalisation historically. Hindus of all castes faced lot of discrimination during muslim and british rule. By that logic almost 99% of India will need some or other form of representation.

I am sure you can find many meritorious people in SC/ST and minorities too. LGBT community is full of talented people that they dominate our film industry, but that is no criteria for anything leave alone sending in space.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Vips »

Isro sets December 2021 target for human mission; no decision on number of Gaganauts or days in space: Sivan.

Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) Chairman Sivan K, on Wednesday said that the space agency has set itself a target of December 2021 for the launch of the human spaceflight programme (HSP), which is more ambitious than the 2022 deadline set by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

“We’ve set a target of December 2021 for the launch of HSP so that we have some margin in case there are glitches to still meet the prime minister’s deadline of 2022,” Sivan said. Before this, Isro will have to carry out a series of critical tests, including two unmanned missions—in December 2020 and June 2021—inflight abort test of the crew module among others.

The agency will also have to develop other technologies like crew support systems, the service module and even the orbital module for the project. Conceding to these, Sivan also said that no decision pertaining to the number of astronauts (Gaganauts), or the number of days they will spend in space had been taken by the space agency so far.

Answering a specific question on the project, he said: “We will have the capability of sending three people who can stay there for seven days. But whether or not we will send so many people for those number of days has not been taken. It will be taken later, closer to the mission date.”

Given that this is the first time Isro is attempting to send humans to space, the number of Gaganauts and the number of days in space will be a minimum, keeping in mind the complexity of the mission and the tight schedule Isro is faced with.

Pointing out that the HSP will require large scale infrastructure and other related systems to be put in place, Sivan urged the private industry to participate actively and work overnight to meet Modi’s deadline.

“The private sector will contribute in a major way. We need huge facilities like mission control, tracking, launchpad preparations and so on where industry must work continuously,” he said.

While reiterating that the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be responsible for selection of astronauts, Sivan, however, said: “Theoretically anybody can go to space, there will be no restrictions.”

He said that he has already had an informal discussion with the IAF and that formal discussions will begin once the project team has been selected. “Once the astronauts are selected they will need two to three years of training, for which we will take help from other countries,” Sivan said.

He said that it was wiser to take help from countries that have sent people into space not just in the training of astronauts, but even otherwise. “It is always wiser. It will help us prevent learning through trial-and-error and help us meet the tight schedule. We have countries with expertise, but who will help us in what will be worked out, keeping in mind the cost also,” he said.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by Katare »

Amber G. wrote:Depending on what one may think "seriously thinking about" really is .. but FWIW a few comments..
- There are some serious "plans" for Manned (or unmanned) flights to Alpha Century (or near by stars) -- here by plan I mean some serious thinking. These involve time period of about 100 (or 50 years) for nearest stars. (extrapolating current technologies)... These are in existence for last few decades in serious writings (IMO).

- Unmanned object like Voyager etc which may take 100,000 or 1000,000 years have been launched and will be launched.

- As sending "data" or listening to data - we can theoretically communicate with any one in our galaxy provided they have a radio-telescope like we do.

Interesting part is SETI type projects (which search for life outside our solar system) are few decades old.. Now with Modi govt and more interest in space and science we have quite a few Indian Scientists and Institutes (and hopefully more to come) who are currently investing in projects like this. You may hear more stories like this:
Indian Scientist is Working in a $100m Project, Searching for Aliens!
How would you communicate with anyone living couple of hundred light years away from us?

Nearest star that has a planet which could be a candidate for life is 200 light years away. If that intelligent life looks at earth today with radio telescope to talk to president of united states of America, it'll see President Quincy Adams in office not President Trump. Further away in vastness of our galaxy, if someone sends us a message with radio telescope today they would see an earth without humans to communicate with.

Current state of theoretical physics doesn't allow any meaningful space exploration beyond our solar system. We are centuries away from having a practical mode of transportation to get out of the Sun's bubble in to the interstellar space. Once we cross that boundary, there is nothing there for us to explore. It'll take far-far longer than a human life to reach at any meaning full place to explore from the boundary of Sun's bubble .
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by disha »

JayS wrote:NOTE: By no means I want to start a naming contest here. :wink:
"Gagan" can mean space as well. The other option is 'Antariksh'. So either you have GaganaViharin or AntarikshYatri. When an Indian gets to go to Alpha Centauri, then we can talk about AntarikshYatri. Till then it is GaganaViharin. :D
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by disha »

Katare wrote: Current state of theoretical physics doesn't allow any meaningful space exploration beyond our solar system. We are centuries away from having a practical mode of transportation to get out of the Sun's bubble in to the interstellar space. Once we cross that boundary, there is nothing there for us to explore. It'll take far-far longer than a human life to reach at any meaning full place to explore from the boundary of Sun's bubble .
In theory everything is solved. Theoretically if you can bend the space around you like say Alcubrie drive, then you can do Faster-Than-Light travel.

However more than FTL and travelling to other galaxies, this is more important and earth shattering rocket from ISRO:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ehicle.png

Image

Will delve into why the above vehicle is very very important.
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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Post by SaiK »

will the crew module get a protected window on which the shields can be opened up for view of the universe? we are talking 7 days in darkness right? pee room to visuals, windows to experiment decks, messaging to video capture, and sending back to Earth everything real time. A woman vyoman in the team would add additional complexities.
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