Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 May 2017 19:12

prasannasimha wrote:^^ The brochure was there as a flip book

http://www.isro.gov.in/gslv-f09-gsat-9/ ... 9-brochure

I had downloaded it.
Lots of rhona dhona but it is there

The brochure was not on ISRO's site this morning. I did look specifically for it this morning and yesterday.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 05 May 2017 19:19

I don't know I had downloaded it. The problem is you need to have a flash player installed or else the page does not load. It was blank on chrome but downloadable on Firefox.

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 May 2017 19:22

I guess that explains it. I do not use Firefox and do not have Flash Player.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 05 May 2017 19:46

Singha wrote:Nukular and conventional security treaty incase of attack by 3rd parties like usa japan/soko has will be a good start

OT, but....I'd go for connected electricity grid, rail links, inland and close-to-shore transport infrastructure for trading to increase co-dependency before these as people of small countries are always suspicious of bigger ones. Then the security umbrella will come to protect the common interests.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 05 May 2017 20:51

What were the perigee and apogee achieved? The ISRO press release doesn't mention that, they usually used to give more detailed info. Even the Hindu's report is missing that info.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 05 May 2017 21:26

http://www.isro.gov.in/gslv-f09-gsat-9/ ... mera-video

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 May 2017 21:39

Video of leaders of countries of the Indian Sub-Continent barring the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan, on the launching of GSLV F09 / GSAT 9 aka Indian Sub-Continent Satellite.

Video kicks off with our Prime Minister speaking.
Then at 10:40 Mohammad Ashraf Ghani, President of Afghanistan
At 14.55 Sheikh Hasina, Prime Minister of Bangladesh
At 18:00 Tshering Tobgay, Prime Minister of Bhutan
At 21:10 Abdulla Yameen Abdul Gayoom, President of Maldives
At 24:05 Pushpa Kamal Dahal aka Prachanda, Prime Minister of Nepal
At 26:00 Maithripala Sirisena, President of Sri Lanka

Posted by our PMO on You Tube at the below link:

PM Modi's address along with other leaders of the Indian Sub-Continent at successful launch of Indian Sub-Continent Satellite

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 May 2017 22:00

With All electric propulsion a satellite weight can fall by 40-60%. GSLV Mark-2 itself may get a long lease of life if ISRO goes into all electric satellites.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 May 2017 22:15

GSLV MK-2 is going to be an even bigger workhorse than PSLV. All the communication satellites that India needs will be dealt with by GSLV, only a few polar sats will need the PSLV.

Hopefully, ISRO goes forward and tries to fulfil the transponder deficiency in the Indian subcontinent. Excess capacity has to be built here, so that the needs of African and Latin American countries can be fulfilled too. More work can be given to component manufacturers with ISRO doing R&D and Final integration only, both for satellites and launchers - to increase the frequency.

Transponder deficiency is quite large it seems

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 05 May 2017 22:18

If ISRO is actually working on refueling and repairing satellites in space then the overall weight of the satellites that have to be launched can be bought down. This will give GSLV-II a very long and meaningful life. While GSLV-III can be for extra-planetary and human rated missions.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 May 2017 22:21

ISRO can give orders to HAL, Godrej etc and have some numbers of satellite bodies made ready and kept in stock, so that, the whole process of final integration can be faster.
Sat integration can be made to be a little bit like an assembled computer, with components being made ready and in stock by private and government companies, and final configuration as per the user.
Similarly, LPSC and other orgs, can keep stocks of engines ready, and depending on launch weight quickly swap around components once the ULVs come around.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 May 2017 22:22

I wonder if GSLV-3, if it can launch 2 or 3 satellites will actually be cheaper than the mark 2?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 05 May 2017 22:29

For that it will have to go for the Semi Cryo version or ULV as it will be called.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 May 2017 22:58

GSLV MK-2 can be used to launch heavier spy, elint, radar satellites in low earth orbits with weights like 5k kg plus which are beyond the ability of PSLV.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 05 May 2017 23:37

Can the GSLV Mark 2 now launch multiple comsats? Not 2000kg ones of course, but say 2 Insat 1 size( ~1100 kg) or 3 Apple( each 670 kg) in one mission? For countries like Nigeria, Brazil, Malaysia, South Korea et al. Countries that are basically where India was with communication satellites in the 1980's. Is there a market for such things?

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 06 May 2017 02:10

GSLV-F09 / GSAT-9 Lift Off and Onboard camera Video

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 May 2017 03:32

Congrats ISRO. Using space to spread akhandatha

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 06 May 2017 04:57

Graphic shows the point of Insertion and the achieved orbit. ( Bracket values are Target value as per brochure )

Perigee Point Height = 170 Kms ( 165 to 175 Kms )
Apogee point Height = 35918 Kms ( 35975 +/- 675 Kms )
Inclination : 20.613 deg ( 20.60 to 20.62 )

A detailed view shows Periapsis ( Yellow line ) and the point of insertion ( Blue dot ). GSLV F09 passed over the Perigee and released the satellite at 229Kms at 11:44:05 GMT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2017 05:21

Pretty tfta bracketing of desired bands. A good shot.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 May 2017 06:26

Isro puts 450 crore satellite in orbit with textbook launch - Chethan Kumar, ToI

For the first time, I have seen the orbital parameters of F09.

In its oval shaped Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO), the South Asia Satellite is now orbiting the Earth with a perigee (nearest point to Earth) of 169km and an apogee (farthest point to Earth) of 36,105 km with an orbital inclination of 20.65 degree with respect to the equator.

From the brochure, the mission specs were:

Perigee 170 ± 5 Km
Apogee 35975 ± 675 Km
Inclination 20.61 ± 0.1 deg

Excellent injection into orbit.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 May 2017 06:50

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Can the GSLV Mark 2 now launch multiple comsats? Not 2000kg ones of course, but say 2 Insat 1 size( ~1100 kg) or 3 Apple( each 670 kg) in one mission? For countries like Nigeria, Brazil, Malaysia, South Korea et al. Countries that are basically where India was with communication satellites in the 1980's. Is there a market for such things?

Theoretically yes, but practically for that to happen, GSLVMK2 would require a 5m payload fairing. ISRO experimented with that in 2010 but those missions failed, but since GSLVMK2 is successfull, they might retest the same

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2017 09:15

after years of noise about cryogenic engine, now that we have it, why is semi-cryo now the in-thing?

is the 'staged combustion' thing we have inferior to the 'gas generator' cryo?

can someone point or explain this in layman terms?

who is the world leader in these 3rd stage engines ?

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 06 May 2017 09:58

The semicryo has a higher specific impulse than hypergolics and is a cleaner fuel. It allows greater availability with easier handling than full cryo (LOX H2) . The gas generator cycle is a full cryo but is easier to pretest than stayed combustion albeit with a slightly less efficiency.
We need to master all of these to allow flexibility and increased payloads.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 May 2017 10:53

Random:

- Cryo stages are called "high-energy stages" by some agencies, because they give the greatest energy for same weight of propellants. The first stage of a launcher is all about pushing the entire rocket at a safe speed through the dense lower atmosphere, without causing stresses to its frame and causing catastrophic failure (snapping into two). But once the lower atmosphere is over, the rockets throttle up for full acceleration and that is where cryos help a lot, with their huge energy spike. To reach orbital, escape or solar velocity in the fastest time, a cryo it is. Of course, khan used cryo for shuttles' SSME (a first-stage to orbit situation) , but is now waffling around on what to choose, thanks to a cornucopia of tech they have handy

unlike others

- Solid rockets are all about reliability and ease of manufacture . But they cant be throttled. Although ISRO has used soilds in fourth stages of SLV/ASLVs, it was more for practical reasons. Khan has its share of solid uppers. Boeing's IUS stage used to be the go-to one for satellites sent via Shuttles. This is because, there was a plan for a Centaur for shuttle bays, but the idea of liquids sloshing around during a shuttle launch made NASA jittery and Challenger tragedy canned it forever. Then there is the ancient and unsung STAR motors, which are solids. Our first INSAT, 1A got screwed up but used a version of a STAR motor, the PAM-D (Payload Assist Module) to reach orbit

- liquid stages are good, because one can mass produce the stages, but load varying amount of propellant at the launchpad, based on mission profile. The bigger the payload, the more propellants are needed for the upper stages, since burn time will be longer to reach a certain velocity. It is the space equivalent of those modular-charges used in artilery. You load only what you want to burn.

- solids are good for low cost launchers, because one can series produce and certfy the entire thing at the plant itself, but cannot customize at pad nor throttle. Hence they are mostly used to provide consistent thrust as boosters, while the core stages, made of liquid, can be throttled to control the overall thrust levels and speed. PSLV moved from full solid of SLV/ASLV, to throttleable hypergolics for upper stages because of a requirement for varying payloads and precision

- Semi-cryo is one area that ISRO has not covered. There needs to be good engine designs on-call, across the spectrum for a Tier1 agency like ISRO. Everything else can be jugaded, but not basic capability

- Gold standard for upper stage is still the 1950's origin Centaur. Khan does not mess with its balloon tanks, designed by that artist, Bossart, for maximum fuel-fraction. It can be re-lit in deep space and is in general, quite nice

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 06 May 2017 11:09

hnair wrote:Random:

.
.
.
- Semi-cryo is one area that ISRO has not covered. There needs to be good engine designs on-call, across the spectrum for a Tier1 agency like ISRO. Everything else can be jugaded, but not basic capability
.
.

IIRC - ISRO's Semi-Cryo engine technology is based upon Ukraine's technology (former Soviet Union tech possibly) and ISRO was given blue prints of the design by Ukraine. But all the special metal alloys, special production techniques, testing & etc related research & technology development work - is to be performed & trouble-shoot'ing to eventually get a proper working SCE is to be done by ISRO !. We may possibly have some Indian SCE working in another 3 years or so. It appears SCE will replace one of the middle rocket stage in the multi-stage GSLV Mark-III vehicle.

China's 2 working SCEs are also based on this tech given out by Ukraine.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 May 2017 12:08

^^^ Regards Semi-Cryogenic Engine, {Possibly?} True {As not sure if the contract actually materialized}.

Per leaked communication dated Sept 7, 2007 posted by Wikileaks, Ukrainian company Yuzhnoye State Design Office was looking to enter into a “contract to prepare blueprints for a semi-cryogenic, liquid-oxygen/kerosene-fueled rocket engine for the Indian Space Research Organization”.

Role Ukraine was per the Ukrainians themselves, to be very limited as the “contract was for delivery of blueprints for the rocket engine that ISRO would use to build its own engine; Ukrainian companies simply did not have the capability actually to construct the engine themselves. “:

UKRAINE: APPEAL FOR USG FORBEARANCE ON INDIA SPACE PROGRAM COOPERATION

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 06 May 2017 13:51

Singha wrote:after years of noise about cryogenic engine, now that we have it, why is semi-cryo now the in-thing?

is the 'staged combustion' thing we have inferior to the 'gas generator' cryo?

can someone point or explain this in layman terms?

who is the world leader in these 3rd stage engines ?

We have 'gas generator' cycle engines. The semi cryogenic engines we are trying to develop will be 'staged combustion' cycle.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 06 May 2017 18:57

^ Sorry - you are wrong Hanumadu the staged combustion engine was what we are using for the GSLV Mk2 CUS. The gas generator engine is for the GSLV Mk III.
In a staged combustion engine the fraction used by the preburner and reiterative cooling of the nozzle etc are taken back and pumped back into the ignition chamber and is the more fuel efficient method but is more complex and cannot be tested easily whereas gas generator just ithe fuel and oxidizer used to run the turbopumps are discharged without entering the main ignition chamber. It is relatively simpler but marginally less efficient but individual portions can tested separately .A semicryogenic engine is what it is - LOX with highly refined kerosene which technically would be a fully staged combustion (unless they were not returning the preburner fed gas back )(but since a cold flow test of the system was done not so sure about it)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 May 2017 19:57

Staged-combustion for Mk-II C12 CUS, gas generator for Mk-III C25 CUS and Staged-combustion for SC-160 stage (SCE-200 Engine).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2017 21:30

From the lifespan of these engines seems like getting it right ix a black art and once people get a good design they atick to its basic framework.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 06 May 2017 23:00

prasannasimha wrote:^ Sorry - you are wrong Hanumadu the staged combustion engine was what we are using for the GSLV Mk2 CUS. The gas generator engine is for the GSLV Mk III.
In a staged combustion engine the fraction used by the preburner and reiterative cooling of the nozzle etc are taken back and pumped back into the ignition chamber and is the more fuel efficient method but is more complex and cannot be tested easily whereas gas generator just ithe fuel and oxidizer used to run the turbopumps are discharged wthout entering the main ignition chamber. It is relatively simpler but marginally less efficient but can individual tested separately .A semicryogenic engine is what it is - LOX with highly refined kerosene which technically would be a fully staged combustion (unless they were not returning the preburner fed gas back )(but since a cold flow test of the system was done not so sure about it)

OK. Thanks for correcting me.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 May 2017 23:44

Singha wrote:after years of noise about cryogenic engine, now that we have it, why is semi-cryo now the in-thing?

is the 'staged combustion' thing we have inferior to the 'gas generator' cryo?

can someone point or explain this in layman terms?

who is the world leader in these 3rd stage engines ?

Please see posts earlier covering the same topic., Hypergolic are inherently toxic (carcinogenic and more prone to fire) compared to rocket grade kerosene. Need for hypergolic will NOT go away., however when you are launching continuously from various launch pads., reducing the fire risks (or increasing the safety margin) is a goal. A leak in a hypergolic tank on one of the launch pad may throw the entire space complex schedule in a disarray.

Between Staged Combustion and Gas Generator., the GG being simpler and burning less hot with lower pressure can have its components independently tested and several runs on an integrated engine can also be carried out. This increases confidence for human spaceflight. The staged combustion can be scaled up for non-human spaceflights.

Russia is leader in Staged Combustion engines., but US has a lead on designing massive engines, clustering and creating massive rockets. Ariane is more like US but very elegant designs (and very modular) and ISRO is just behind Ariane., Chinese have very ugly rockets and way behind in solid motor boosters. I will refrain from comparisons though., since rocketry is complex and each agency needs to evolve based on local needs and not aping US.

PS: Edited for brevity

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 May 2017 23:57

For people doing rona-dhona on why such low key coverage and no entry to #mediapimps? Here are the reasons:

1. #mediapimps will bring in Bakistan, then cheen and then do rona-dhona and then do equal equal and spoil the diplomatic mahoul of other nations including Afghanistan and B'Desh.

2. Recently there was a fire in the launch complex in the solid propellent scrap yard., contained and no injuries.

3. GSLV Mk III is on launch pad.

Put 2 & 3 together and the range director will start having high BP with #mediapimps floating around.

Further, for ISRO this was just another launch with their focus on GSLV Mk III. <- This one is a game-changer. I am just waiting to post more once it is launched.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 May 2017 00:02

By 2020 when we have our SCE and Ion engines for satellites then all the basic building blocks for any sort of launch will be in place. It will just be a matter of using right combination and cluster. Gsat-9 has 12 transponders. All electric satellites in this weight class already have 50 transponders. I think we may not see ISRO going for very heavy lift capacity & it might be satisfied with upto 6 tons which can have up to 200 transponders by 2025-30.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 May 2017 00:42

Ariane 5 and 6 uses solid boosters but is classified as 2-stage.
GSLV Mk III is classified as 3 stage vehicle.

Are Wiki editors being naughty ?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 07 May 2017 02:21

disha wrote: Here are the reasons:

1. #mediapimps will bring in Bakistan, then cheen and then do rona-dhona and then do equal equal and spoil the diplomatic mahoul of other nations including Afghanistan and B'Desh.

2. Recently there was a fire in the launch complex in the solid propellent scrap yard., contained and no injuries.

3. GSLV Mk III is on launch pad.
.

Very good reasons! Not meaning to nitpick at all, but you mean GSLV Mark 3 is in the launch complex being assembled, not on the actual launch pad, or on one of the 2 launch pads, right? Perhaps the launch assembly buiding?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 May 2017 02:46

Neela wrote:Ariane 5 and 6 uses solid boosters but is classified as 2-stage.
GSLV Mk III is classified as 3 stage vehicle.

Are Wiki editors being naughty ?

Probably because the core stage is lit 100 secs after the twin boosters.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 07 May 2017 06:47

hnair wrote: Our first INSAT, 1A got screwed up but used a version of a STAR motor, the PAM-D (Payload Assist Module) to reach orbit

In fact APPLE which was the first Geo satellite from India used SLV-3 4th stage solid motor. APPLE, INSAT 1A, 1B all suffered the solar array deployment issues. No issues with motors. However 1B survived the ordeal

Also I believe only main motor was solid in these cases and that the vernier ones were liquid

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 May 2017 07:24

SSridhar wrote:Staged-combustion for Mk-II C12 CUS, gas generator for Mk-III C25 CUS and Staged-combustion for SC-160 stage (SCE-200 Engine).

Agree that C12 and SCE-200 use staged Combustion Cycle while C25 uses the gas generator cycle though a nitpick regards GSLV Mk III aka LVM3 core stage.

Propellant loading for ISRO’s under development Semi-Cryogenic stage has been increased to 200 Tonnes resulting in the SC-160 stage morphing to become the SC-200 stage.

Thrust remains at 2000 KN and hence the SCE-200 nomenclature holds good.

Extract from ISRO Annual Report 2016-17 (Clicky)

The semi-cryogenic Project envisages the design and development of a 2000 kN semi-cryogenic engine for a future heavy-lift Launch Vehicle. The semi-cryogenic engine uses a combination of Liquid Oxygen (LOX) and ISROSENE (propellant-grade kerosene), which are eco-friendly and cost-effective propellants. ………………………..

Preliminary details of overall Stage configuration and stage engineering of Semi-cryo stage with 200 T propellant loading (SC 200) has been worked out.

Added Later:

Unintended mix up pointed out by Prasanna Simha re Staged Combustion and Gas Generator, corrected

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 07 May 2017 09:15

C25 is not staged combustion but a gas generator. This will be first tested in the coming developmental flight of GSLV Mk3